Dr. Dale Williams (3:08)

Well, that was quite an intro. I mean, I was called what in All Star? An author. Yeah, I. You know, I like all that. I would. I would put dad in there. And, yeah, I. You know, I like what I do. I like to write. I like to create. I like the science. It's a nice mix for me. And in terms of the background, these are, as people probably picked up, these are illustrations from the children's book. The artist is Susanna Brown, and she's amazing. My job was to. So you can see some of them. My job was to try to come up with some text that matched the quality of the illustrations. So I'll wait for feedback from people to see how I did.

Uri Schneider (4:09)

Well, it's a phenomenal book. And the first association that I had, as I looked at it and read it over, I thought of Dr. Seuss's classic the Sneetches. I don't know if you ever thought of that or ever heard that, but for me, the concept of fitting in and the fallacy of thinking, oh, well, if I don't have the Sneetches story in short form, if I recall, and I think it's quite profound and a wonderful teaching tool for middle school and high school. But the idea of this guy comes into town, and he says, I'm gonna sell this tattoo machine that puts stars on the bellies of these Sneetches. And then all the Sneetches are, hey, I want to have that exclusive tattooed star on my belly. And then everybody starts feeling pressured, and either you've got the star or you don't, and you're either in or you're out. And the desire to be in is so great. Well, then everybody gets the stars. And this businessman has no more business. So he comes up with an idea, and he says, listen, that was so last year. This year, it's all about no stars on your belly. And he starts selling the no star on your belly solution. And then that becomes the cool in thing. And everybody that still has a star is on the outs. So I think it's a beautiful illustration of how outside influences can create the concept of what's right and wrong and what's whole and broken and. And so when I read the book, and perhaps you're right, Dale, the illustrations are so good. That was what made the initial connection. But your Creative expression, the rhymes and the creativity, the way you give talking a new word called squawking. And, you know, all of that just made me think of Dr. Seuss. So I think it's a beautiful piece of creativity. And obviously the message and the content is spot on. So I highly recommend the book.

Dr. Dale Williams (6:01)

I thank you very much for that. I mean, that's certainly a nice comparison. And yeah, I did want to cover the whole experience for children from. Okay, something's different here. Let me avoid it. Let me try to hide it. People are still seeing it. They're mocking me for it. There are bullies. Nobody else is doing this. I'm in this alone. And then finally getting the right help and working towards some acceptance. So, yeah, thank you for that. I'm proud of the effort. And the initial feedback has been pretty good.

Uri Schneider (6:45)

Awesome. So before we get into the creative side, behind every creative, there's a story, there's a backstory, you know, and the books are a beautiful way for people, as you said, that want to understand the journey and for clinicians to use this practically hands on with young people and adults. Books are extremely practical and intended for reflection and even have, you know, questions and journaling and things built in. So they're really, really practical. But if you could take us into, like, Dale's backstory, in other words, where. Where did your journey of stuttering kind of go back to? Maybe what was a memory of some of the tougher things that you endured, and then maybe one or more of the breakthroughs and meaningful moments or people that showed you some light in the journey.

Dr. Dale Williams (7:44)

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a very good question. Because, you know, all the, all these images come into mind as soon as you, you say that. Yeah, there were, you know, there were times where I'm, you know, I'm trying to speak in front of the class and it's not working. And the class is laughing, the teacher is laughing. It. You know, I think my response was much like it is for a lot of kids where, say, all right, I need to. I need to hide this thing. I need to not do it anymore. And so, you know, starting, I don't know, probably. Probably high school, I think I started on a lot of avoidance. I mean, there was one, One class where every day we had to get up, we had to go to the chalkboard, and it was a chalkboard again, you know, I'm old. And we had outline sentences, okay, subject, verb, and we put the diagram and such. And I mean, you know, I would try to hide in the back of the class, I would, you know, I would miss class if I could. I would show up late if, you know, I thought he was going to choose people to diagram sentences at the very beginning. So I have that kind of image of. Or that. That. That memory of avoidance. And, you know, I. I had a lot of tricks. You know, nobody listening to this is surprised by any of this because they probably have similar stories. I would guess through probably high school and college. A lot of people didn't even know I stuttered. If I was going to, you know, if I had to say something where I know the stuttering is right there, I just wouldn't say it. I would do anything I could to hide it. And, you know, as typically happens, I got. I. You know, all that does is increase the word fears, increase the situational fears. And I really reached a point where it was enough. It was, this stuttering thing is defeating me every day. So I had to look for little victories. Okay, this is a problem word. I'm going to fight my way through it. I don't want to ask for catch up, because that's gonna happen, but I'm gonna ask for it anyway. It was just like, okay, I won this round. I won this, this day.

Uri Schneider (10:39)

What was that turning point? What age are we talking and what kind of precipitated from moving from that hiding, avoiding tricks, and then moving towards, you know what? I'm gonna go for it anyway.

Dr. Dale Williams (10:50)

I was in my 20s, and what's kind of interesting about that, when I had a chance to speak at the voices seminar at ASHA, this was like 2012, there were a few talks in addition to mine about people saying, I sort of got what I had been told all these years. In my twenties, it's a shift. I have to find a job, or I have to find a grad school, or I have to find something, and I just can't keep going the way that I'm going. And that was certainly the case for me. And a lot of that was, okay, all that stuff I learned in therapy, because at the time, I was not a good client, and I missed a lot of sessions and I didn't pay close attention. But 10 years later, here I am saying, oh, what was that guy talking about? Okay, I need to do that. You know, suddenly it all made sense to me. And I think that for a lot of the people who made a transition in their 20s, I think it was the same sort of thing for them. And I tell my classes now, okay, you may think, you know, the kid is Rolling his eyes and he's not paying attention and he's giving you grunts and one word responses but, but you may very well have a significant impact in his life. You're just not going to see it because it's going to be 10 years later.

Uri Schneider (12:23)

Wow, that's so profound. I think the implications there for parents, teachers, clinicians and people themselves is like we have to have a long term investment kind of view. If we're looking for a quick return today, we're going to do exercise X and we're going to see outcome Y within, you know, client will do this exercise 80%, 100% of the time by the end of the three month semester. That didn't play out for you. Luckily you didn't throw it all out the window. But for some people, they do have a pretty sour memory and experience and never would want to go back and kind of block it out. But if, if the encounter would match that. I'm just thinking aloud that, you know, as you're saying, it's not, you're not the only one that turned a corner in your 20s. So when we're working with 15 year old Dale or 15 year old Debbie or the squawk or whatever, I blanked out on the name. I think that's, that changes things for parents, expectations for clinicians and for people. Sometimes it's a quick turnaround and sometimes it's a long game planting seeds.

Dr. Dale Williams (13:30)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And the therapist's name, by the way, was Randy Miles. I mentioned that just because I never thanked him at the time. So give him a quick shout out here if for somehow this, this makes it back to him.

Uri Schneider (13:47)

Shout out for Randy. So in your 20s, did you come to that kind of that switch, that click on your own? Was there some outside experience or individual that kind of brought you to that turn?

Dr. Dale Williams (14:06)

Both. Initially. The idea of I can't let this thing keep defeating me, that was me. It kind of became a competition, me versus the stuttering. When I got into the field and learned that, oh, there's names for all this stuff, it's avoidance, it's confrontation, it's desensitization, it's confronting fear that other people know my little secrets. Yeah. Then it's like, okay, let me learn as much as I can about this. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? Let me kind of, kind of refine this process.

Uri Schneider (14:49)

When did you come up with this crazy idea as a young person who stutters that going into the field of speech language pathology was something you were Interested in pursuing.

Dr. Dale Williams (15:04)

That's kind of an interesting story. I was living in Boulder, Colorado. I was doing marketing for a photography studio and I realized one day that whether I came in or not, pretty much the same amount got done on a given day. I didn't feel like I was making a major contribution to society in any way. And so I started looking for another job. Well, I got an interview in Tampa, Florida. So, okay, I booked a flight there. I had a long layover in St. Louis. I knew one person in St. Louis, so I called him and said, you know, are you around that day? You want to come? Come to the airport. I'm stuck there for, you know, six hours, whatever it was. And so we got to talking. He said he was going to go back to school and do something else. I said, I've kind of been thinking about that myself because I feel like I'm in a dead end job. So he got me kind of excited about the idea. I went to the University of Colorado library and started looking up grad programs and I came across a speech language pathology and I said, oh, I know something about this and this is me and let me start applying. So yeah, a combination of a dead end job, booking an interview and happened to talk to somebody, real high end grad grad schools that got me to start searching and came across this field. So yeah, a little bit random.

Uri Schneider (16:56)

Random totally reminds me of the quote. My friend Seth Braunstein had different quotes on the place cards at his wedding. So the quote on my card was, sometimes you find yourself in the middle of nowhere and sometimes in the middle of nowhere you find yourself. And you know, whether that's walking out into a forest or you got a stopover or an unintended layover, sometimes instead of getting annoyed about it, leaning into it and figuring out can I phone a friend or can I figure out why I'm here? Seems to be pretty pivotal for you. And I also love the second thing that, you know, if you're a young person or a person mid career, you know, thinking about the fact the things that you might have grappled with, have dealt with in your life, have come to terms with might not be things that you need to shy away from and find areas of employment and lifestyle that don't hit into those things, but rather you might have a fund of knowledge and perspective and strength and wisdom that could actually contribute in your work with that. Whether it's as a career or as creative or in the community, the fact that someone's grappled with something tends to they may not be the smoothest talker, but they might be one of the best qualified people to engage with people who have that kind of challenge and are trying to find their way through it. I think that's counterintuitive, but a consistent message that we see. And it was less common in your days. I know Peter writes this, for example, had a pretty epic pushback from his grad school. I was wondering if you encountered any kind of pushback in your schooling choices where people said, well, we'd love to have you. Have you worked out that stutter yet? Because how could. Did you encounter any of that kind of challenges about the fact that you were a person who stutters trying to become a professional therapist? Speech therapist?

Dr. Dale Williams (18:56)

No. Though the professor who covered the fluency courses in my grad program, Walt Cullinan, he stuttered himself. So, you know, it was quite accepted, actually. There were two professors on faculty who stuttered. This was at University of Oklahoma Health Sciences center, where I got my master's degree. I do remember the first day of the fluency course where Dr. Cullinan said, is there anybody in here who stutters? And I was still in avoidance mode, so there was not a chance I was going to raise my hand. So I just sat there and he went on and talked about stuttering and the shame and the embarrassment and people don't want to admit it. And very, very pointed discussion. And then he said again, all right, having said all that, let me ask again. And this time he's basically looking right at me. So it's like, all right, it's me.

Uri Schneider (20:09)

Gutsy move on his part. And on yours.

Dr. Dale Williams (20:13)

It seemed like it at the time. Now that I'm on the other side of that, it's like, okay, that was probably a good move on his part and a way of opening up discussion. I mean, it is. Well, I'm not giving you any news here, but it is a class, it is a topic, it is an area of discussion that works so much better if there's give and take, to kind of, you know, there's a lot of gray areas, there's a lot of myths, there's a lot of controversies. And to kind of, you know, to kind of play with that with a class makes the class a lot better. And I suspect that's what he was going for. Okay, let's. Let's get some interaction going here.

Uri Schneider (21:01)

Awesome. So there's a little tip for the teachers out there. Interaction. It's the way to go. Nobody wants just straight up lecture.

Dr. Dale Williams (21:09)

No, no. Sometimes easier said than done. Sometimes you get a group that just wants to sit there and listen, and.

Uri Schneider (21:17)

That'S easier or harder when they just want to sit and listen.

Dr. Dale Williams (21:21)

It's harder. Yeah, yeah, it's, it just. The time goes by so much faster when they're, you know, when they're challenging me with ideas, when they're, well, and when they ask questions like, okay, this piece of research said A, but this other piece of research said B, you know, isn't, you know, how do you fit all that together? And then I'm thinking, ah, you know, they're reading the stuff, they're thinking about the stuff. Okay, let's break it down. Let's explore that. I mean, that's, that's just a lot.

Uri Schneider (21:55)

More fun for all the students out there. Hope you're taking notes. So at least Dr. Williams would appreciate you bringing up the questions and challenges. I don't know if other instructors are going to make Dale pay for that one, but students, you know, we want to hear you. And I mentioned to Dale, one of his good friends, since in regards, I was talking this morning with Kristen Kamela and she certainly feels that the most vital skill that we need to have as clinicians is critical thinking and problem solving. And if you're not having that give and take, that's not happening. You've got to flex that muscle. And I think similarly, that's a good model for therapy to encourage parents and young people and adults to think, to challenge, not just to sit and receive your instruction, but to really bring up the things that are resonating and things that are irritating and things that don't sit well and have that back and forth. And rather than seeing that as defiance, seeing that as engagement and having an opportunity to really be invited into someone's authentic thoughts and feelings and to really meet them where they're at and really practice client centered care, person centered care, as opposed to. Here's what I have to tell you. Sit back and take it in.

Dr. Dale Williams (23:18)

I remember one year, a very interactive class, and the last day of class I thanked them and said, this has been a really good three, four months, however long a semester lasts. You know, not only did you figure out right away that I wanted the back and forth and you kept it up, but I don't really have a plan B. So had you not done that, it would have been me throwing out questions and there would have been awkward pauses because, you know, I don't know how to make that adjustment. So, you know, this, this is the way I want to teach. And you know. Thanks for figuring that out.

Uri Schneider (24:06)

Awesome. I'm going to take an excerpt from the new book just to give people a taste of your work there and just give you a chance to reflect. I really like this piece where he meets the other birds or animals or creatures and they start talking about how they deal with their squawks. And they all squawk differently, and each one has his way of dealing with it. Then our hero, the main character, seems to find his way. So I'm just going to read these few pages to give people a taste. Would that be okay?

Dr. Dale Williams (24:35)

Sure. Go for it.

Uri Schneider (24:36)

Thank you. So he says he meets these other birds or these other creatures and he says, oh, what's Nate asked them. What's your secret? Then? How do you get along? How are you brave enough to squawk when it will sound so wrong? Well, it's hard, said Kaylee. But I know boar squawking is just me. You think it's tough, but listen up. Just try it, Nate, and see. Does everyone do all things well? And some things aren't you better? Can Blaine fly as well as you in school? Don't you? Top rhetor? We all have troubles, Nate now knew of that there's no denying. But when their problems knock them down, some folks just keep trying to. So Nate worked up his nerve until he squawked wrong without hiding. And it was tough. As he had feared, he was himself still fighting. But as he tried and tried some more, the squawk became less scary. No tricks to think about at all caused Nate to be less wary. His squawks were odd, he knew that, but no odder than before. And squawking now was far more fun as Nate squawked more and more. The squawks don't run my life, he yelled of them. I'm now the boss. My squawking doesn't have to mean that I feel at a loss. And when Nate didn't hide his squawk, a funny thing occurred as far more often than before a proper squawk was heard. And you wonder why I thought it sounds like Dr. Seuss. What? Yeah. What would you reflect on that little section there? I really like that.

Dr. Dale Williams (26:23)

Well, to be honest. And I'll address the section in a second. Honest. The first thing that went through my mind was my first publication in the field was in the Journal of Fluency Disorders, and title was Pre Phonatory Physiologic and Aerodynamic Measures Prior to the Speech of Adults who do and Do Not Stutter. Or something like that. And my latest one is called the Can't Be Seen who Couldn't Squawk. So whatever that says.

Uri Schneider (27:00)

Oh, I thought you were going to analyze my pre phonatory airflow as a person who doesn't stutter. But you're reflecting on how your work has gone from somewhat. Yeah. Highbrow to books for children that really just hit you in the heart. I think it's.

Dr. Dale Williams (27:17)

Well, you know, I guess we can consider it just the science and art mix that we talked about at the intro. Yeah. In that particular section, Nate, the main character is learning that he's not alone. And. Okay, I can get some help with this and I don't have to feel shame. Other people have things they can teach me. And the culmination of that section is. I mean, I guess you can think of it as straight vanriper. You stop hiding. And not for everybody, of course, but you stop hiding. You stop that association of negative consequences with speech, and suddenly you find yourself not stuttering or not coarse walking as much. And that was. I mean, that, that did reflect my own experiences. I was older, as we talked about before, but when I stopped hiding so much, the number of word fears, the number of situational fears was reduced. A lot of them went away, which is, you know, which I didn't know at the time, but, you know, is the way that it's supposed to work.

Uri Schneider (29:05)

And I just. That's. That's stunning. And I think it's. It's masterful integration of best in class clinical practice and then bringing it into an artistic storyline with poetry and rhyme. I think it's awesome. And I think the evolution of being able to take big ideas, the analysis and understanding of anatomy and physiology and metrics of speech science, and not just leave that in a laboratory, but be able to bring that into a kindergarten class. Staying true to the science and the professionalism, I think is a real presentation of craft and excellence.

Dr. Dale Williams (29:49)

Well, thank you. Thank you. I do remember with writing it, it was okay. Development through acceptance. What has to be in there. You know, I want a bully. I want avoidance. I want, you know, things start to get worse. I want the feeling of loneliness. I want the, you know, professional help. So, you know, there's basically a list. You know, I'm crossing stuff off as I go through. I want the whole thing there. And yeah, it's. I was actually just talking to John Gomez about this recently. The question was kind of, okay, what is it that I do? And I came out of my grad program as basically A lab rat. My PhD program, I'm in the lab, I'm making measurements, I'm running subjects, I'm hooking up equipment, finding engineers. When it doesn't work right, that was where I lived. I got to a university that didn't have the same research equipment. Okay, I have to scramble. I need some other publications. And for good or for bad, I feel like I've gone from, okay, let's run experiments and advance theory, which is a very noble endeavor, which is what researchers are supposed to be doing, to writing books with the idea of that, okay, there's information, it has to come out there. Can I present the information in a new way? And, you know, it's not something we need to get into necessarily, but I think there are arguments that can be made on both sides of that.

Uri Schneider (32:01)

I think that the more aspects and facets we can bring into our work and into our lives, it doesn't just enrich that part of our life, but it adds texture to the other parts as well. So I think I would encourage all my professional researcher friends to consider writing music and scripts and books and poetry, and I would encourage my artistic friends to dive into reading some of the speech science and research content. I think we'll all be better for it, even if it's not our go to. But I think those that dance in both worlds really are a gift and bring a much more holistic perspective. And every perspective is valuable, but those that can stand on two sides of the elephant certainly see it in more dimensionality. So. That's beautiful.

Dr. Dale Williams (32:53)

Yeah, I think you hit on the key there. I mean, it reminds me a little bit of Mel and Wall's ISAD paper we're talking about. Yeah, you don't have to be an expert on stuttering to write your story, to write a poem. I mean, William Palmer is, you know, is not in the field, but he writes tremendous poetry about stuttering. You know, some people can draw. You know, Daniela is good, good example of, you know, someone using that particular skill. He's, you know, and he's extremely talented. You know, people who can paint. I mean, there's probably a way of painting that's representative of stuttering, that's showing that. I would put put stand up comedy on this list. Okay. That's a new way of giving my experiences in a way that maybe you haven't heard before. There's probably stuttering, interpretive dance. I mean, I don't know how to do most of this stuff, but yeah, your particular experience is very important. Well, making movies, you know, getting back to John. Yeah. You don't have to say, okay.

Uri Schneider (34:27)

I.

Dr. Dale Williams (34:27)

Only know my stuttering, so I'm limited in this regard. No, your story is important. Okay. Obviously, there's some danger in saying, my experience is everybody's experience. I know stuttering because I know my own stuttering. But, you know, you have emotions, you have something to say, and, you know, there are different ways of expressing it. Oh, my son's in a photography program. I almost forgot to mention that. And, you know, another way people express themselves?

Uri Schneider (35:01)

I thought you were talking about my son, Dale. That's awesome. Both have sons. In photography, we can.

Dr. Dale Williams (35:05)

Oh, really?

Uri Schneider (35:06)

Yeah. We should have a Pexel comparison and, you know.

Dr. Dale Williams (35:12)

Yeah.

Uri Schneider (35:14)

Exhibit.

Dr. Dale Williams (35:16)

Yeah. Well, and he's in New York City, so he's probably not that far from you.

Uri Schneider (35:22)

Perfect. Perfect. Well, John Gomez is actually right along with us for this conversation in real time. So shout out to our good friend John. And in comedy, you mentioned I wouldn't.

Dr. Dale Williams (35:33)

Have said nice things about him.

Uri Schneider (35:35)

That's why I didn't say it till now.

Dr. Dale Williams (35:37)

That's fair.

Uri Schneider (35:38)

Nina G. Was mentioned in the comments and comes to mind as a comedian. Both John and Nina have been on this podcast. And I'll tell you, Dale, you were talking about expressive dance. Believe it or not, this is, as far as I know, the only podcast where we've ever had a dance session. On an audio podcast with my good friend Shane Garcia. Shane was on so youo Think youk Can Dance many years ago, and in his expressive dance, he was expressing his journey with stuttering. It's the most exquisite piece. And so his episode is awesome. And to top that, he will be doing a masterclass workshop in 2022 for people who stutter to explore through the art of movement and expressive movement. So that's gonna be super cool.

Dr. Dale Williams (36:26)

I need to find that podcast.

Uri Schneider (36:28)

And he's near you, Dale. He's near you. He's in Florida. He's awesome. Yeah. So we'll make that things start here. You never know where the ripples go. It's kind of like what happens in St. Louis ends up in Florida Atlantic University. This is awesome. I want to come back to this. And you mentioned also another one of our good friends, another person who was on the podcast, Danielle Rossi, who wrote this illustrated piece called Stuttering is Cool. There's also a podcast and a website and a sequel. And his drawings are just amazing. And in his book, he has the stereotypical people who stutter. And I'm not gonna give it away. You got to see his book to see it. But what struck me in your book in Stuttering power over it, this is not the children's book. This is the book, I guess, for adults. Is that right?

Dr. Dale Williams (37:21)

Yeah, yeah. It's a workbook.

Uri Schneider (37:23)

So I wanted to bring attention to chapter nine, and I thought it was stunning, and it made me think of Danielle Rossi as well. You list here the types of listeners, and you list the following types of listeners. And I just want to preface this by saying in our field, the work with people with aphasia, as far as I know, is one of the most pronounced places where we talk about the value and the impact of communicative success. The success of establishing meaningful communication does not reside exclusively on the shoulders of the speaker, but rather it's a shared experience and a shared responsibility between the dyad, the speaker, and their conversational partner. And so I don't think we do enough of that in the way we think about stuttering and the role the listener can play. And I think in many places, the listener, be it a parent, teacher, friend, intimate partner, they really don't know what the other person would wish for them to do. And it ends up leaving a lot of disappointment on both sides. So one of the big things I think is important we look at is how people who stutter let their audience, let their world, let their family, friends know what they would wish for, because everyone has a different wish. Some would love if you would not call on them in this situation or give them a pass on the oral presentation and let them present it differently. Others would wish to be treated absolutely no differently than anyone else, but somehow having that explicit conversation. But in your book, you list the stereotypes or different types of listeners, and I'm going to list them here, and maybe you could share with us your favorite or most important one to shed some light or maybe some humor. There's the know it all listener, Then there's the jerk. We've all met that one. Then there's the curious one, Then there's the hypocrite, there's the benevolent one, there's the family, there's the friends, there's the date, and then there's the subtle one. Which of those would you like to share a little bit and enlighten us with some insight or some humor?

Dr. Dale Williams (39:30)

Well, these types of listeners, and this is based. I really need to thank my local support group members for this information, because in my first book, way back when, 2006, I guess, I had a chapter on listeners, and it was basically their stories, one guy was bullied in middle school, one guy was actually thrown out of a, I mean physically thrown out of a restaurant. One guy overheard a co worker mocking his stuttering. You know, they came up with these great stories. I said, okay, I'm going to put them in the book. I'm going to make them first person I'm going to try to get. Okay, well let's get all the raw emotions of these things. And so this was, this was kind of an extension of that. And I think the woman who I'm actually trying to think of it was this book or the other. I'm getting my stories mixed up here. But the one bending over backwards to say, I don't have any qualms about disabilities, I'm going to show you that I'm as open minded as possible. That I think is kind of, I don't know, is an interesting one to me because while that person really means well, they have no idea how condescending that can come across. Also, the last one, the subtle getting into microaggressions and subtle prejudice, that kind of stuff, that's been something I've been thinking a lot about over the last couple of years, just trying to identify those instances. I find those interesting because you can't ever nail somebody on that. You can't. Aha. What you just did there, that was a microaggression. Because there's always another possible reason for that. Okay, I start talking, somebody talk, talks over me. Okay, well why did you do that? Do it? Do I not get a turn? Do I, you know, is what I have to say less important? Oh no, I just had to say this right, right now. Okay. You know, I join a conversation, I stutter, I'm ignored. Okay, well, you know, isn't that a microaggression? Isn't that kind of, you know, treating me a certain way because of a speech difference? No, we were, the two of us were just engaged in a conversation and I had something to say, say to my friend. So, you know, you, and by the way, those excuses might, might be 100% accurate. So you as the person experiencing this also don't, don't know if you know, okay, was that a microaggression or was that just one of those things that happens sometimes in life? I think it happens more to people. Well, I know it happens more to people who stutter. So there are microaggressions. But isolating a single instance and, you know, a single event and saying that was the wrong thing to do, that's, that's very, very difficult and can Be frustrating.

Uri Schneider (43:23)

What do you have any practical tips either from your own experience or from your perspective of having seen and heard and shared so many stories and journeys? For someone that experiences one of those episodes and they don't know what to make of it or how to try to make it a better one, any thoughts on ways to have those crucial conversations with that person?

Dr. Dale Williams (43:48)

This is a conversation that comes up a fair amount in support group meetings. And I think the key there is to be yourself. I can say, okay, here's what I would do in that situation. Maybe that doesn't work for you. I have been in situations where I've been comfortable enough with everybody in the room where I could say something like, okay, just because it takes me an extra second to say something doesn't mean I don't get a turn. Well, I say that in a support group meeting, and several people in there will say, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's way too aggressive. That's something I'm never going to say, okay, you don't have to. Somebody finishes your sentence for you. Complete the sentence anyway. Send the message that way that, okay, this isn't going to speed things up. You're not going to be in charge of this conversation. Yeah. So, you know, it's not very profound, but I do think it comes down to do what works for you. You know, we know so much of stuttering is individualized. I think, you know, the way we treat listeners can be added to that list.

Uri Schneider (45:12)

Awesome. So that was one excerpt from the book, another piece that I really like that I'm going to share. I'll read aloud and then you can riff on it, and then we got some questions. So if you're listening live, you can drop questions, give likes. If you're liking this conversation, share this conversation. I think it's a treasured opportunity to pick the brain of one of the greats, Dr. Dale Williams, both a professor, researcher, clinician, and creative author, and most recently with his children's book. So this is another excerpt from the first book's debt was from first book, the book for adults, Stuttering Power Over It. And the chapter is called Risk Taking. And I'm going to take the liberty to read a page because I think it's awesome, and then get to hear some backstory or reflection. So Dale writes, While I was contemplating matters related to my college newspaper, my age dropped four years and my surroundings became green and warm. I was on a soccer field. 20 yards away stood my neighbor Horst. I was never much of a good soccer player, never much of a Soccer player. But working with Horst provided me an opportunity to improve. My 20 something neighbor grew up playing the game in Germany and knew how to bend kicks even better. He said he would teach me. And as I understand it, the keys were where my foot struck the ball and how I balanced my weight. Go, said Horst. When Schno and I sat, I set the ball in the corner of the field, backed up two steps and gave it a ride. It bent around the cone Horst had placed a few feet from where he stood. Again he commanded and the cone was moved. But I still curved my kick around it again. No problem. In the empty lot where we practiced, I could bend shots around cones, chairs, whatever else Horst placed on the field. This was before the trick shot videos, but you were doing it then. I set the ball down, I got ready to kick it again. Only now there was no object on the field, just opposing players. The scene had changed subtly. It was probably mere months, perhaps even hours past the neighborhood practice I had just left behind. I had some inklings of the game situation and my task was clear. It was my time to try this new skill in an actual game. My school team played matches once a week. It was a lax group run by a phys ed teacher who wanted to coach football but had to settle for my teammates and me. Kick it, he instructed me. As if I had anything else planned. I approached the ball, but suddenly the idea of curving it seemed impossible. Striking the ball in the exact correct spot with my weight balanced correctly was, for reasons unknown now, a far fetched idea. Kick it. I remember tried to remember all of Horst's instructions. As I swung my foot, the ball curved not one iota and landed 30ft out of bounds. Both the opponents and my teammates started laughing. It goes on, but I think that captures something very powerful and I would love to give you a chance. The title of the chapter is called Taking Risks, but it really captures a poignant human experience. What would you like to reflect on that?

Dr. Dale Williams (48:28)

Well there, yeah, it's such an important part of the therapy process. You know, any CFY speech language pathologist can get somebody's speech under control inside the treatment room, whether they're doing mostly starting modification, fluency, modification, whatever it is. But it is so difficult to transfer that to other environments. It takes that risk taking gene, that risk taking thing on the part of the climate. And it's called risk for a reason. It's not always going to work. Sometimes the ball is going to fly 30ft out of bounds. But it's also true that you're Never going to learn how to do something without actually doing that something. So, you know, you've got to try things in conversation. You've got. You know, that kid is never going to learn how to bend the kick in a game if he doesn't try to do it in a game. So next time it's, you know, he's kicking the ball from the corner, he's got to try it again. You know, he's got to keep this idea. It's kind of the old adage of learning from your mistakes, you know, going two steps forward for every one step back. All of those sorts of cliches have a lot to do with stuttering therapy. If you're not going to get out there and try this stuff, well, then your SLP has done wonderful things for you inside the treatment room. But life doesn't happen inside the treatment room.

Uri Schneider (50:39)

How true. How true. Stephen Green from Ireland was really taken by some of the samples that we've shared here and intends to share these books with the groups that he's familiar with in Ireland, which is super exciting to hear for me and I'm sure exciting for you as an author and creator, never knowing how far your books will.

Dr. Dale Williams (51:01)

Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Uri Schneider (51:04)

So he was curious. Dale, do you have any experiences or feedback of how people or young people have responded to or experienced the work that you put out through these books?

Dr. Dale Williams (51:17)

If we're talking about the children's book, yes, I have had some feedback from either mom saying, I read it to my child. My child really liked it. Or in some cases, they would quote their child. They would send reviews. Mary in parentheses, Mom. And then Misty in parentheses, five years old. And so it's. With children's books, obviously, you're not gonna. I mean, I say this mostly for myself because I forget this sometimes. You're not going to get the feedback of, okay, this is. This is a great lesson that I'm going to use moving forward, you know? You know, that's. That's not the kinds of things kids say. It's. I don't know. You talked about Dr. Seuss before.

Uri Schneider (52:24)

Using.

Dr. Dale Williams (52:24)

The book Green Eggs and Ham. You know, kids will love the story, but they're still not going to try new foods. You know, they're going to hear the story a hundred times, and then somebody's going to say, oh, this is just like green eggs and ham. Okay, maybe I'll give this a shot. You know, maybe mom puts this on my plate enough times, I'll eat it. So, you know, I think that's about the best you can hope for as far as feedback from, from children. Now, I have had a fair amount of feedback from older children who maybe read stories to their younger siblings. And that feedback has been very positive. I mean, you know, at the risk of sounding self aggrandizing here, I guess I've been very pleased with that.

Uri Schneider (53:14)

Awesome. So a lot of pronounced feedback here. Stephen Green from Ireland, really appreciating you sharing from the perspective of the researcher, chair of the department, instructor, and also creative author Doug Scott. You know, really just amplifying the importance of that, that movement, that transfer of therapy outside of the clinic being the hardest and riskiest, requiring a lot of that. And I think that's a, that's a dance, isn't it, that we have to work on figuring out how to embolden and build courage and at the same time mitigate and protect people from taking too much risk too soon. But at the same time, one cannot expand their, their circle of influence or their circle of comfort without taking some step beyond the comfort zone. Looked like you wanted to riff on that.

Dr. Dale Williams (54:13)

Yeah, I think it's very important to start that transfer process on day one, like right at the beginning of therapy. Yeah, they're not going to be able to go out and talk a new way, but they can do something, something outside the treatment room that's in the long run going to be beneficial for them. And you know, with the book I wrote with Jay Campbell, the stuttering book before that there, you know, you outline the therapy process and transfer generalization is always the last section. And I try to make the point that doesn't mean that we only do this at the end. But I think that's. Sometimes people in the field might forget that and say, okay, we've got everything where we need it to be. Now it's time to transfer and generalize. And that's very difficult, especially now with so much zoom therapy going on, because you don't really, and I, I'm certainly guilty of this myself, you don't really have the opportunity to walk around with your clients and talk to other people and bring their friends in and that sort of thing.

Uri Schneider (55:40)

Unless you invite them on zoom or you make a speaker phone call. You can call Zappos, they're my favorite people to inquire and look at the latest sneaker trends for young men and young women and young people. So, yeah, where there's a will, there's a way. But just, yeah, the importance. I love what you said on day one, thinking about not what are we going to do in here, but what are we going to do out there? And whatever we do in here with that mindset, beginning with the end in mind of how do we consider how you're going to be able to utilize this? How is this going to make a difference, not just in here, but from the first moment, you know, thinking about bringing it into life. Love it. There was one question. Do we have five minutes? Can we take like an extra five minutes?

Dr. Dale Williams (56:28)

Sure.

Uri Schneider (56:29)

Thank you. So, speaking of time, I don't have.

Dr. Dale Williams (56:30)

Anything else to do. Sure.

Uri Schneider (56:32)

Oh, well, we're just glad you showed up. And once you're here, we're going to make sure to squeeze every bit out of you. So somebody asked, speaking of time, Doug Scott was asking, and I'm curious, too, the timeline of creating these books. Like, how long do you spend in this creative process, from ideation to drafting to editing to publishing? Like, how long is that process for you that's in your court before it gets obviously to the publisher and printer?

Dr. Dale Williams (56:58)

But I actually just got a contract for a second edition of the first book, and I asked for 18 months on that. So that gives you some guidance. Something like a children's book where you're matching the text to the art and getting it right. And we just actually had a printing issue, so things are delayed again, finding reviewers. I mean, it doesn't take that. It doesn't take as long to write the story as it does to put it into a. Into a presentable form. So it's, you know, it's working a little bit at a time. When I wrote a novel once under a pseudonym, and that was basically the plan there was, okay, I've got other stuff to do. I can't spend so much time doing this. But if I write a page a day, within a year I'll have a novel. Now it'll be a novel that reads like it was written a page a day. So it has to be smoothed over and, you know, edited and all of that sort of stuff. But, yeah, that's kind of. Kind of how I work on this stuff is just, okay, let me put a half hour into this every day. And over the course of time, it all comes together.

Uri Schneider (58:41)

The most profound conversation for those that were asking that I've seen about really going into the inner world and workings of a creative is a wonderful conversation. Tim Ferriss interviews Jerry Seinfeld about his creative process. And I thought it was incredibly insightful and enlightening for me. I was wondering if there are people out there that are pondering. I'VE been puttering around in my journaling. I think I've got a story to share. I think I've got something here. I'm thinking of a good friend, Mo Mirnick, who approached me at a time where he was drafting his manuscript and wasn't sure if there was an audience for it. Ultimately, it was published as a wonderful book called the Gift of Stuttering, highly recommended in addition to Dale's books. And so for him, it was kind of like reaching out to me and saying, do you think anyone's going to read it? And I sure know what I told him, and I'm glad I was right. They will, and their lives will be better for it. Do you have any encouragement or just first step ideas for someone who's puttering with the idea but feels overwhelmed and no one wants to read my stuff, do they? What would you say to that person who's at that place?

Dr. Dale Williams (59:53)

Yeah, I think the key. And here, you know, like with stuttering therapy, you know, you never want to overgeneralize and say, what works for me works for everybody.

Uri Schneider (60:04)

But I've never seen that happen. I've never seen that. Dale, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Dr. Dale Williams (60:11)

I guess I must have dreamt that.

Uri Schneider (60:13)

Okay, maybe you were in a different Facebook group or something.

Dr. Dale Williams (60:18)

But yeah, I would strongly recommend just start writing. I mean, I read somebody, a published author, say, one time. There are no bad first drafts because it's always step one on the way to something great. And while I don't know that I agree with that because I've read, you know, drafts of, you know, first drafts of stuff that have been sitting for a while of my own stuff and just said, oh, that's, that's, that's crap. But I do understand what, what she is saying that, you know, just start, start writing. Let the, you know, let, let the words flow. You know, you can start, you can start putting it together and, you know, you can smooth it out later. But that, that first part where you're just writing stuff down, that's the most fun part of the process. That's, you know, that, that's sort of the anything goes part, the no rules part. And, you know, even if you do come to the conclusion that, okay, this isn't going to work, this isn't anything anybody's going to, to read, you're better off for it, save it, you're going to come up with something else. Oh, you know what, Let me fit it with this other stuff. You know, I've, I've had that happen too. So yeah, just, just write, write it down. I mean, one of the. Getting a little off topic here, but one of the things with the self publishing boom is, is that people not only have to write, but have to market. And they don't want to do that. They just want to write. And I think that's okay. You know, if you just want to write, okay, I hope somebody reads this, but I'm having fun doing this. That's a worthwhile product.

Uri Schneider (62:26)

So I think the takeaway, and I'm going to share two takeaways, one humor, one for real. And then we'll come to our closing question. If you knew then what you know now. Okay, so my two observations also give you a chance to reflect on that. So one observation is, if you're someone who's writing that first draft and there's no such thing as a bad first draft and you want a gentle, constructive criticism, I think send it to me. If you want an accomplished writer like Dale to tell you if it's really crap, send it to Dale because apparently he's not scared to let you know. No, just kidding.

Dr. Dale Williams (63:00)

Well, I don't treat people like that.

Uri Schneider (63:02)

Oh no, not the people, but the draft, obviously you're also better off sending it to someone who knows a thing or two about writing. And the second thing meaning Dale, not me. Although I do have a book cooking. So I was listening carefully as one of those people sitting on the edge. And then Dale, I would say the other thing that struck me about that first draft and just write, just start writing. I think we can borrow that concept as like just start talking. Because for people who stutter. I think one of the observations that people have invited me into is sharing the idea of such vigilance of self monitoring and self regulating and self editing that before, before even opening a mouth to say the first word, there's a hyper monitoring going on as if trying to do the first, second, third and fourth draft all at once before even putting the first word into the world. And so I think it's a beautiful segue to understand. Just like the writing process, it helps to just start writing and then later you can format your chapters and sequence and transitions so similarly. I think with talking to recognize that if you've fallen into this pattern of trying to prepare, edit and do all of this mental work before you actually start saying the words, that might be something to just borrow from Dale's idea. Just start writing, just start putting it out there. And you can take turns along the way. But the over editing is often going to be something that stops you and holds you back both in writing and in talking. It doesn't serve your best interests often and it might even be your own stumbling block.

Dr. Dale Williams (64:47)

Yeah, I think that's, that's a really effective parallel if it, well, like okay, what I did just, just there, there was a time where I was pretty good at monitoring my speech. Okay, that's a very good parallel. And you know, and I can fall into that speech pattern, you know, relatively easily. I forget a lot more often now and you know, the stutters can be more tense but I don't care. You know, I've become desensitized to that and I'm okay with that. You know, it's, I mean I'm glad I learned the other speech patterns and they helped with the desensitization process. But now coming out the other side, it's okay. I don't worry about that stuff so, so much. I can, you know, if I stutter, I'm not still thinking about it as I fall asleep that, that night I've actually reach a pretty good point where I forget about it in a second.

Uri Schneider (66:00)

Roughly what age do you feel you turn that corner where you just don't care as much and you don't have what you previously had which was going to sleep at night replaying different moments in the day that were rough. What age do you feel you reached that?

Dr. Dale Williams (66:17)

I think what, you know, that's a tough question. I think for the most part I was probably there by say, I don't know, 30, giving a rough estimate. But if you ask my 30 year old self, are there still situations where it's going to be difficult? Yeah, I probably say, well, if I meet somebody for the first time, if I'm meeting my, my in laws for the first time. Okay, I don't, I want to make a good impression. I'm. I don't know.

Uri Schneider (66:56)

I hope your in laws, I hope your in laws aren't listening. That was the one situation you just pulled out off the top of the hat. Yeah, there's a chance what you're referring to is that it's a process and it's gradual. It wasn't like an all or nothing. One day was like this, one day was like that. It was certain situations to may have had that consequential feel, whereas others didn't.

Dr. Dale Williams (67:19)

A lot of times. Yeah, I probably shouldn't have used the in law one because that's like an important. Okay, yeah, you want to make a good impression in that situation. Some of Them were dumb. Some of them were like, I don't want to ruin the punchline of a joke. So I'm going to use a voice or I'm not going to tell that joke because I can't say the key word. And you know, some, some of it was just, you know, silly stuff.

Uri Schneider (67:44)

Totally. But I think, I think what I'm taking away is two things and tell me if I got it right. One is it's, it's a gradual process and it's situation specific. So one can have this. I don't give a hoot in situations A to J, but situations K to Z are still of consequence to me. And one can have that and see themselves evolve over time is just having more places where they feel they don't care as much and in places that do feel consequential and may rightfully feel. So, like an interview for a big job, it makes sense that you want to go in and show your best. What your best looks like and what you allow yourself to show and what you would prefer to tuck in and put on your, your nicest clothing that you're not going to wear every day on the job, but you're still going to dress up for that interview. That's a different conversation. But there are some situations that are consequential and your book has a chapter on that. And I think that's so important for people therapists and people that think situation to situation, they're not all the same. And the second thing, Dale, is at a certain age you can do that. A seven year old, a 13 year old, a 17 year old and a 30 year old, it's not just plug and play, you know. So when we're Talking to that 13 year old, that's not a message that's easy to sell or to transmit for them to just adopt. Whereas a 30 year old young adult has a different capacity. So I think just being realistic about what we know now and what we play then. And that brings us to our money question, which is knowing what you know now, what would you tell your younger self, Dale of 12, Dale of teenage years?

Dr. Dale Williams (69:28)

I would tell my, I would tell myself to stop, to stop hiding. And you know, in regard to what you just said.

Uri Schneider (69:37)

Sure.

Dr. Dale Williams (69:38)

You know, my 13 year old self would not listen to that. Okay, I, you know, everyone just made fun of me when I had to give a report in class. Forget about this not hiding stuff. Hiding is exactly what I need to do. But if I could get him to listen. Yeah, stop. Stop hiding. You think people don't know that your speech is different, but they kind of do. You know, you'll okay, I hid it from everybody in college, but if I tell somebody I went to college with, oh, I stutter, I'll get, I won't get a response like oh, I'm shocked. I never noticed that. It's more like, oh yeah, I guess I kind of knew that. But you know, we, we were always talking about other stuff. So it's, yeah, it, it's not as, it's not that. It's not that big a deal. I would tell myself that not everybody is watching you. Not everybody is focused on you. People are self centered. They're thinking of their own stuff while you're talking, they're thinking about what they are going to say. They're not hanging on your every word. And by the way, they're not noticing if a hair is out of place. They're not noticing if there's a thread on your shirt. Yeah, it's, you know, all this shocking stuff. We, you know, we're self centered enough to think that we're the center of everybody's universe and, and yet we don't look at the flip side of that and say, oh, maybe other people are the same way. And you know, they're not really paying that close attention. Yeah, they're going to mock it if they see it because it takes it by surprise. But then they're going to move on to other stuff. They're not assigning that as some sort of negative characteristic of you. It was like, oh, that, you know, it's like if you trip and fall all your friends are going to laugh, but they're not going to then, you know, from that point forward refer to you as the guy who trips.

Uri Schneider (71:52)

To bring us home. I just want to say how thoroughly I've enjoyed this conversation and look forward to re listening to it. And the comments and feedback already on the live chat has already been quite profound and outstanding. But I think the comment that you made when I read out loud the children's book you reflected on. Wow. The first thing I published was a piece of professional, you know, speech science research and my last publish is this children's book and what an interesting journey that is. And I guess I think it brings us to this last point that you just said and it really hits on the head of there are things we may know now that we would wish we could tell our younger selves and that very same thing might be something our younger selves couldn't hear. So we might write that Piece of speech science research. And it's, wow, earth shattering. It changes our whole understanding and perspective of what matters. Now. How we bring that into a world of a young person has to take into consideration the style, the format, the platform and the capacity of that young person to really plug into that. And so I think your ability to distill all your knowledge and research into these creative pieces and writing to an audience of different ages is so important and something we all, whether we're writers, dancers, singers, composers, performers, filmmakers, we've all got to lean into that to think about how can we adapt wisdom into packaging that fits what people can bite into and really put into play in their lives and have these transformational experiences which Dale reminds us might be long term transformational processes that might not happen in that six months or that school year. And how does that change the way we parents, clinicians, people go into an encounter? If we know there's going to be short term stuff, but there's also long term stuff, it's not all going to present itself in the next six months. I think that really leaves us with a lot to think about. I just want to thank you if you had any parting words. I just wanted to give you a chance for again, an insight, a joke. But this has been a thoroughly delicious conversation.

Dr. Dale Williams (74:04)

Yeah, no, this, this has been fun. I've enjoyed this. I like the way that, you know, you take things apart. You look for gray areas, you look aha. But what about this? I find that process a lot of fun. So.

Uri Schneider (74:22)

Yeah, we only forgot one thing, Dale. Where can people find you and get your books? What's the best place? We'll obviously put it in the show notes for people that are just listening. But if you want to just mention it.

Dr. Dale Williams (74:36)

Yeah, the children's book and the workbook, the Hearsay Resources site, resources.com a good place to get to get those. And yeah, as far as Shining a Light, the book written with the stand up comedian and the first book as well, just you know, Amazon or wherever you typically buy books.

Uri Schneider (75:05)

Okay, well, I never. Amazon. That's a new one.

Dr. Dale Williams (75:08)

I'm sorry, go ahead.

Uri Schneider (75:09)

Amazon. That's a new one. A M a Z O N. Is that it?

Dr. Dale Williams (75:15)

Yeah, if you go to like, if you put that in a, in a search engine, maybe like, like page three, there'll be like, like this online store that comes up.

Uri Schneider (75:26)

Got it. I confused it with the National Geographic South America. National Geographic South America. All right. My photography son has been on the computer so he takes me down into the photography, videography of the Amazon, but apparently it's a bookstore, too. Well, this has been awesome.

Dr. Dale Williams (75:42)

Yeah, no, no, that's, that's, that's good. And that's, that's a good note to end on. So I thank you again.

Uri Schneider (75:49)

Thank you. And we look forward to your feedback. Another great episode. You can hear this and all the other 70 episodes already on the Transcending Stuttering podcast. It's coming to the end of 2021. So if you have a favorite, favorite episode or a topic that you enjoyed or a topic of interest that you'd like us to see revisit, we'd love to hear from you. You can send us a message here on Facebook or by email. And we look forward to seeing all of you in 2022. At the end of 2021, I am hosting a meetup. You can find out more. That's going to be a meetup on how to set smart goals for all of us. Looking ahead at another year coming up. How can we make this next year the best year ever? Regardless of what Greek Alphabet we have to learn with new variants and whatever is going on, we should all stay well and stay strong and stay healthy. But all of us need to kind of set goals and put our sights into what we're going to do. Whether it's writing a new book, saying more of what we have on our minds, or getting more into a lifestyle of health and wellness. Whatever it is, we're going to work together to workshop how, how do you set smart goals and really go out there and get them? So thank you, everybody. Look forward to next time.

Dr. Dale Williams (77:01)

All right, bye. Bye, everybody.

Uri Schneider (77:03)

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you want more, check out transcendingx.com podcast. Sign up for our email. You'll get exclusive clips, invites to events and access to join our community and much more. If you just want to listen to more episodes, you can subscribe and drop a review on Apple, Google, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. Your subscriptions and reviews help us reach more people. Wishing you a great day.

Uri Schneider (77:46)

Sam.