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TranscendingX - Raw Conversations and Practical Tips to Break Through Stuttering, Communication Fears, and Become Who You Truly Are
#75 The Seduction of Fluency with Vince Vawter
01:00:22
Vince Vawter spent 40 years in the newspaper business until his retirement in 2006 as publisher and president of the Evansville Courier & Press in Evansville, Indiana. Vawter’s first novel, Paperboy, published by Random House in 2013, was...
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- [00:00]
Vince Vaughter
A young person who stutters. I think they think two things. I just want to talk like my friends. That's all I want to be able to do, is to talk like my friends. And then there comes this massive confusion. I seem to be as smart as everybody else. I seem to be. I seem to be a good person. I seem to be liked. What's the matter with me? The answer is, there's nothing wrong with you. You are an individual. You just need to be trying to find your voice. I caution them in thinking, I've got to stop stuttering. I've just got to stop stuttering. I think what you need to concentrate on is finding your voice. And you will find it.
- [01:01]
Uri Schneider
Welcome to the Transcending Stuttering podcast. My name is Uri Schneider from Schneider Speech. Join me as I explore and learn from the true stories of real life heroes, people from the world of stuttering and beyond. We explore the challenges and the triumphs and most of all, how to transcend stuttering and discover our best self.
- [01:31]
There are some episodes that are just going to be an instant classic and this is one of those. My guest, Vince Vaughter takes us through eight decades of a life worth living and he is still at it as his book Paper Boy, which was decorated with all kinds of awards and is used in English and literature classes around the country and translated into languages around the world, brings stuttering into the mainstream in just good storytelling. And Vince is a master storyteller and the book Paperboy is currently being converted and adapted for the stage for a musical. So that's gonna be really exciting. Stay on the lookout for that. But for now, kick back and enjoy this amazing episode. There's a wide ranging conversation taking us through his school years, his family life, into his career, and as he looks back in his retired years, even as he continues to be extremely active, both in his garden and also on the national scene, talking about his book, talking about stuttering and just inspiring people along the way. He brings us inside and talks about his journey of overcoming stuttering, his appreciation of the word transcending stuttering. It's just an amazing episode. His stories come from the heart and they touch the heart. I know you're going to enjoy this one. Kick back and enjoy the Seduction of Fluency with Vince Fodder.
- [03:04]
Well, it's a big treat. Good morning everybody here live. My name is Uri Schneider, Transcending Stuttering and Schneider Speech. And it's a big honor. There are certain guests that just stand out and have been people I've wanted to prepare for and to practice. And this is, as I told Vince before we got on, this is an itch I'm looking forward to scratching. And he'll tell you why that's funny. But we have today the honor and privilege to speak with Vince Vaughter. And if you know anything about the world of steel stuttering and showing up in media and in print and in books and literature, Vince is a legend for his contribution, which is not only treasured in the community of people who stutter, but around the country and around the world as a great piece of literature for young people. And in addition to that, features a character who stutters, which is really something ahead of its time, something that is overdue to have more representation of characters who stutter. And in doing so, there's so much power to how we can reduce stigma and increase the variety and diversity of what young people grow up seeing and hearing and reading about. And it will ultimately contribute to a much more wholesome and stronger tapestry in our society and culture. That's my belief. So I'll give you your intro that is due. And it's a big honor to have you. Vince, thanks for joining us.
- [04:35]
Vince Vaughter
Thank you very much, Uri.
- [04:38]
Uri Schneider
So Vince Vaughter spent 40 years in the newspaper business until his retirement in 2006. That was the end of the first chapter as retirement as publisher and president of Evansville Courier and Press in Evansville, Indiana. Vince Vaughter's first book, paperboy, published by Random House in 2013, was awarded the coveted Newbery Honor. The book, which deals with a boy who stutters and who must throw his friend's newspaper route, has been published in 16 languages. That is no small feat to have that many people interested in reading a book, let alone the effort to translate it. Bravo. It's been sold. It sold more than a quarter million copies. His second book, Copy Boy, was published in 2018 by Capstone Editions. And since his retirement, he's been busy. He has spoken at schools, education conferences, and gatherings of people who stutter in more than 25 states. So we'll figure out which of the states you still need and we'll try to help you out there. His books continue to appear in reading lists in schools across the country. Today he lives in Louisville, Tennessee, with his wife of 49 years. Vince, it's a pleasure to have you. Thanks for taking the time to us.
- [05:59]
Vince Vaughter
Thank you very much. Uri, you know, here you reading that introduction, I was thinking, is he really talking about me? And yes, that's me. Everything was correct. So thank you very much.
- [06:16]
Uri Schneider
So then, even more challenging is my next question, which is, what's one thing that doesn't appear in that formal bio that's meaningful to you, something you would wish people would know that's meaningful to you, part of your life?
- [06:31]
Vince Vaughter
I guess I would answer that in saying that the book Paperboy is a book I always knew I would write. I had no idea if anybody would publish it. I had no, no idea if anybody would read it. And what has happened since I published it has been totally amazing. If you had have told me, I would spend my retirement talking across the country and to zooms around the world, including Kuala Lumpur and places I can't even find on a globe. But that's how I've spent my retirement. And I couldn't think of anything else better to do. It's something I believe in. I think that stuttering is so misunderstood. I like to talk to young people and though they may not stutter, they have issues of some sort of. And if I can help them to face those issues and find a way around them, find a way to coexist with them, I do think it's a service and I'm proud I can do that.
- [08:18]
Uri Schneider
That's astounding. So for those of us that only know you since your retirement, this is how we know you. If we had met you earlier on, you're a few years older than me, would you take us through a walk of any standout moments or chapters in your journey as we were talking before we went live? The word journey is so appropriate. And you've got a couple miles logged.
- [08:45]
Vince Vaughter
Yes. When I was a young person, I would have probably. I could probably be considered the poster child of COVID stuttering. I tried to hide my stutter in every way I could. Some of the things I did really embarrass me now. But when you're a teenager, when you're 11 or 12 years old, you do anything you can to survive. Keep in mind this was in the 50s and 60s. Speech therapy at that point, to my mind is nowhere near it is today. I think the field of speech therapy has made such great strides. Speech therapists are some of my favorite people, and I talked to a lot of them. I was a covert stutterer. But there are some things in the book which happened to me, which. Which are not fiction. They came right out of my life. I couldn't say my name. If somebody were to ask me my name, I would try to make the V sound and I would block on that and I would hold My breath. And on more than one occasion I got dizzy and I would black out. I kept the thumbtack in my pocket and anytime I had to read aloud in class, speak in class, I would jam that thumbtack into my palm hoping the pain of that would take away the pain of stuttering. And of course, as I say in my book, it just caused two pains. And then, you know, I would. There's a scene in the book also where my family takes us out to eat at an Italian restaurant. And some people that I didn't know joined us and we were, they were laughing and everything and I was very uncomfortable. And for some reason I had this horror of telling a waiter what I would like to eat. And what I would do sometimes is to try to change the word around a little bit just so I could get it out. And so the waiter came to me and I said, splish Gettysburg. That created a big laugh. Oh, your boy is so cute. Well, I got very embarrassed and they kept on talking about it and you know, I had a mouthful of spaghetti and at some point I just let it fly all over the table. I was, I was about 12 years old at this time, so those are in the book. And that, that as a part of my childhood, which was very real, I continued in college still as a covert stutterer. And then when I got into the newspaper business, you know, I knew I was going to have to come to grips with it. I guess I should back up a little bit. When I was in high school and then in college, my only goal was to be a professional baseball player. I thought, okay, since I can't talk and I'm pretty good at baseball, I've got to try to get to the major leagues. And so I went to college at LSU and I was, and I placed all my effort on sports, on baseball, trying to find my self worth. Well, it turned out I wasn't quite as good as baseball as I thought. And I remember the day I saw my first 98 mile an hour fastball. And I decided right then, well, I better learn to do something else because this baseball is not going to work. So in my juvenile thinking I said, okay, since I can't talk, I better learn how to write. Not knowing that a newspaper reporter has to talk a lot more than he or she writes. And so, but I still, I found out I had a knack for it. And so, so that's what led me into journalism. And I love the newspaper business. I loved the chaos of the newsroom because it seemed like it Helped me focus. And So I spent 40 years in newspapers, as you said, and it was a great career. I didn't give my first public speech as a newspaper editor until I was about 45 years old, and it was traumatic. I got through it, though, and something kind of clicked. And throughout this time, I had gone through a lot of speech therapy, but I never really got over the hump. But when I started public speaking, something seemed to click, which. Which said, you know, what I really need to be concentrating on is not total fluency. It's in finding my voice. And so that's what I concentrated on. And that's why I like to say that that fluency can be a cruel mistress. And I truly believe that. So that's. That's kind of my life there in a nutshell, my stuttering life.
- [16:27]
Uri Schneider
Well, so I'm interested in not the lucid details, but the Inside story till 45, your dance with the mistress, you know, avoiding public speaking. How did you navigate what were some of the proud, crafty, resourceful ways you navigated and maybe other ways you navigated getting to 45 without doing public speaking?
- [16:54]
Vince Vaughter
A funny story I like to tell, and it's a very true story. My first speech to a civic club, it happened rather quickly. The editor of the newspaper, and I was the managing editor, I was the second in charge, he was scheduled to speak at a civic club, you know, the typical noon luncheon with a rubber chicken and all that. And so it's not.
- [17:31]
Uri Schneider
It's not a typical. It's not a typical place I hang out. So it's actually common, as you might think. But for those that know the typical civic club lunch, there you go.
- [17:41]
Vince Vaughter
Right, Right. Yeah. And there were maybe 60 people in the room or something. And of course, I was scared to death. And so I wrote my speech, and I practice it, and I said, well, I got to get through it somehow. So I started my talk, and I tried to hit all my speech targets, and I was still extremely nervous, though. But then I looked down in the front row, and there was an older gentleman there, and he was sound asleep. His head was cocked over, and I think he may have been snoring even. And at that point, it seems like a light from the heavens came down. And it showed me that, you know, I'm dying a thousand deaths up here, and this guy in the front row, he could care less. You know, he doesn't know I'm stuttering. You know, he doesn't know what I'm going through. And so why should I be Concerned. And I think back to that man, you know, and so, you know, I give a lot of a public speaking, public speeches now. And I think about that man off a man often, what a good service he performed for me. You know, when you look at it, standing up in a crowd, in a small crowd, shouldn't be that frightening. And from then on, I got more comfortable speaking in front of a crowd, still stuttering. And what helped a lot, my standard line starting my speech was, folks, I have some good news and I have some bad news. The good news is my speech is only 10 minutes, but because I stutter, we may be here for 25 or 30 minutes. And so that draws a laugh. And at that point I'm completely at ease of still stuttering. But I have found my voice and, and I don't hear myself stutter anymore. It's kind of strange. I know I do stutter. Anytime I go on TV and. And it's played back or, or I look at it online. I always say to myself, you know, I didn't think I stuttered that much. And it's just because I don't pay any attention to it. I cannot tell you how much that I stutter. I know I still stutter, but I just concentrate on what I want to say, not so much on exactly how I'm going to say it.
- [21:12]
Uri Schneider
I think that is such a surprising paradox and something that people would picture to be so impossible to meet. People with kids, 8 years old, 9 years old, obviously younger, who are stuttering all over the place. And you ask them, oh, does that stuttering bother you? And they're like, what? You know, that thing that stutter parents will ask kids or they'll try to. Try to convince us, you know, how could they not know that it's happening? And the funny thing is that when we grow up, we don't care what color shirt we're wearing. We don't color, you know, you don't care what brand sneakers we got. And at a certain point we start to care, and then we get to a certain age where we stop caring. Right. And it's kind of surprising, but I'm really glad you mentioned that because I think it's important on both ends to recognize one can get to a place of finding their voice and still having stuttering but not really being tuned into it. There's other things you're attending to, and you can be a young person and start off in that place. What if we could bridge that and minimize the amount of worry that is not necessary and that kind of brings me to the point that you mentioned before we spoke. Stuttering is what we do when we attempt not to stutter. Right. Another profound statement that maybe you could shed some light for people that, that don't get it. As much as I jive with it, stuttering is what we do when we attempt not to stutter.
- [22:44]
Vince Vaughter
Yeah, well, I guess I need to tell this story also. In 2014, the. The book had been out about, had been out about a year, and I was asked to give the keynote address to a group of a speech pathologist in Memphis, Tennessee, where I grew up. And I said I would. And so my speech was called my Stuttering Manifesto. That was the title of it. And there are three parts to it. And when I got in the room there, keep in mind, now this was in 2014, when I got in the room, I started thinking, you know, I'm going to be saying some things to these learned speech pathologists and they may run me out of the room. I'm probably going to say some things which they don't want to hear. And so my Stuttering manifesto is first, stuttering is not cured. Stuttering is overcome. I truly believe that. And a quick, quick aside, I love the title of your blog, Transcending Stuttering. That's what it is. It's not getting rid of stuttering. Sure, it's improving, but you are transcending your stutter. That's the way I think of it. And then my second point was stuttering is what we do when we try not to stutter. Now, that's a very simple statement and it kind of rolls easily off the tongue. But if you really do a deep dive into that, I think it's 100% true. It's the stutterer's attempt to gain fluency. And in that attempt, they are causing a stutter. How do you get around that? Well, a lot of therapists use voluntary stuttering and I think that's worthwhile. It kind of gets your mind to thinking, well, okay, yeah, you know, it's something I do have control over, maybe because I can voluntarily stutter. So it's, it's a, it's a profound and simple statement, but it has a lot of layers that kind of go with it and that make it complicated. And then the third part of my manifesto is fluency is overrated. You know, I think, you know, I went through one program and I think the figure the people used is that the 6 o' clock anchor on the evening news is somewhere between 92 and 95% fluent. They are not 100% fluent. Okay. A person who stutters could be between 30% fluent, you know, 50% fluent, you know, you know, on and on. And so it's a matter of quantity. It's not a matter. It's. It's not a matter of quality. My definition of fluency is if I can say anything I want to say anytime I want to say it, at that point, I'm fluent. Now, I'm still stuttering to beat the band, but as long as I can say what I want to say when I want to say it, as far as I'm concerned, I'm fluent. And the rest is just semantics.
- [27:46]
Uri Schneider
When did you draft the notes for this stuttering manifesto?
- [27:50]
Vince Vaughter
Well, I guess shortly after I wrote the book, you know, knew that I was going to have to talk more about stuttering. And, and so I. And so I tried to come up with the three or four things which I thought deeply about and that might get some other people of thinking. Stuttering is so misunderstood. And I consider part of what I'm here to do is, is explain stuttering. Explain that we are just like everybody else, except there's. There's something going on up there that, that is a disconnect. And we don't talk like other people talk, but we're all different. Some of us are bald. You know, I happen to be a very bald stutterer. There's nothing wrong with being bald and there's nothing wrong with stuttering. It's just. It's just who we are. And so, and so try to grasp that now. One caveat on this. I'm very careful when I talk to young people. And I never say that stuttering is not cured. They don't need to hear that. So I never say it in those words. I do say that your goal in therapy instead of fluency should be in finding your own voice. And I truly believe that.
- [29:55]
Uri Schneider
Powerful. I was thinking about the passion of bringing that book Paperboy, and then of course, the next book to the world. I was wondering what changed for you? Was it a page turner for you? Was it a chapter turner for you and Vince's journey prior to putting out the book? I'm sure you had been more out with your stuttering, but I'm sure putting the book out there and the clear identification of your own story in the, in the storyline. Did, did you feel something shift in you when you put that out?
- [30:31]
Vince Vaughter
I really did. And, and that shift was I came to realize that stuttering for everybody is a journey Now My journey is not like another stutterer's journey. It's. But we are all on a journey, and that journey is going to go up and down, and it's going to be what you make it. I very much try to point out, if you are on a journey, it's always a lot more fun to travel with somebody. And that person you're traveling with should be your speech pathologist. They are going to help you get where you want to go. And it's just good to have a friend along the way, a young person who stutters. I think they think two things. I just want to talk like my friends. That's all I want to be able to do, is to talk, talk like my friends. And then there comes this massive confusion. You know, I seem to be as smart as everybody else. I seem to be, you know, you know, I seem to be a good person. I seem to be liked. You know, what's the matter with me? Well, you know, the answer is, there's nothing wrong with you. You are an individual. You just need to be trying to find your voice, you know. You know, I, you know, I caution them in thinking, I've got to stop stuttering. I've just got to stop stuttering. I think what you need to concentrate on is finding your voice, and you will find it. What the beauty is in that is that, you know, if you're a person like John Stossel, you can find your voice and you can be a famous newscaster. You know, there is no limit in the early days of speech therapy, and now, once again, this is in the 50s and 60s, because I go way back. What speech therapy was, was, try for a half hour, fail for a half hour, go back the next week, try for a half hour, fail for half hour, try fail, try fail, try fail. And I think it had the wrong effect. I think poured into our minds that we were all about failure. So, you know, it's a. But. But one thing I am so proud of is that this, the speech pathology world has come. Has. Has come around to the fact that the person who stutters needs to be treated as they need to look at the whole person, not just the stuttering. And some, with some of my other therapists, they didn't want to hear about my feelings. They really didn't want to hear what I was going through. They just wanted to say, okay, let's work on your plosis, and let's work on this and let's work on that. I think that speech pathology now, I think is more of A holistic type approach. I think that most speech pathologists now do look at the whole person and I think the whole person matters.
- [35:08]
Uri Schneider
You're 100% right. And while I wish I could vouch for every single professional out there, there's work to be done. But there's no question, no question at all that the good people out there, the good speech language pathologists and the vast majority of our field is coming to appreciate the following and put these on little pins for going to the Montreal conference next week, Joint World Congress on Stuttering Cluttering. And we have these pins we're going to give out. And they say, treat people, not problems.
- [35:42]
Vince Vaughter
Oh, wow. Well, it's good.
- [35:45]
Uri Schneider
So, inspired by, by your comments, I think a step further that we can all take as mentors, parents, therapists, teachers is like Vince said, see the whole person. Vince who's dreaming to be a baseball player, whether it's going to happen or not. The Vince who not only may get stuck on a word or two, but has some pretty good ideas and needs to find an amplifier for his voice, get an audience to hear them out. A step further is even giving agency and putting the person at the center of the process, that they're an agent of their own journey and not just some marionette puppet that would pull their strings and tell them how to do this and go here, go there. So really, people, person centered care is really the next wave of what we can do. You used a word, Vince, that's. And you're the one of the most respected wordsmiths in the community. So I'd love to hear your take on people, especially now as we get more sensitive to inclusion and diversity and triggers and all sorts of things which are so important to create safe spaces and have these crucial conversations. One of the words that you used is the word overcome. Stuttering is not cured. Stuttering is overcome. And I was wondering, I don't know if you're aware, there are those that when they say it, they mean something different than what I think you mean. And there are those that take issue when they hear that word being used. And I was wondering if you could just, number one, maybe enlighten me and us about what you meant versus what others might meant. And number two, how do we, how do we on the one hand speak with sensitivity and on the other hand not cancel out words that might be useful and used by different people with different ways?
- [37:42]
Vince Vaughter
Yeah, I realize that that statement, it kind of paints a broad stroke on things. What I mean though is that I am a person who stutters. I probably will always stutter in the clinical terminology of it. But if I have confidence and in a one on one conversation, in a conversation, in a small group, in a conversation, to a large group, if I have that confidence to throw myself out there and to speak my truth, I have overcome my stutter. I have not cured my stutter. I tell you what, and I'm, and I may get in trouble here and you may have to cut this out, I don't know.
- [39:04]
Uri Schneider
But go for it.
- [39:06]
Vince Vaughter
Several years ago, well, probably 35 years ago, there was a book out and it was called Stuttering Soft and, and I'm thinking, oh gosh, I got to get that book. Well, I read that book and I just kept shaking my head. That's not right. This guy is just not right. Stuttering is not solved. Stuttering. Stuttering is worked on. Stuttering is. It might be improved. Word flow might be improved, but stuttering is not solved. I think if you talk with James Earl Jones and if you hear him as Darth Vader, you're thinking, oh my gosh, he has solved his stutter. No, he hasn't. I've had the opportunity to hear him when he is in his non Darth Vader voice and he is a person who stutters. And you know, just because he's Darth Vader, I guess you could say as Darth Vader, he has overcome his stutter. I would like to ask him though if he thinks his stutter is cured and I can almost guarantee you he will say, no, it's not cured. I still am a person who stutters. Even though he's a great actor, a great voice, he, he has overcome it.
- [41:11]
Uri Schneider
I'm not sure where you're going to get in trouble for. I was, I was thinking, it's very funny that you brought him up because I was thinking when you mentioned how you got to the age of 45, mid career and you'd manage not to do much public speaking to that point. And I was going to mention that James Earl Jones, you have not seen him on late night tv. You have not seen him in spontaneous impromptu interviews very much at all. It is extremely rare, especially given his position and interest in him. And it's clear that that's a choice and I would tend to agree with you. So, so overcome. And I'll play a quick game with you. Would you be game for a quick game that I do with young people who stutter? I say to them, you know, first three words that come to mind when you think of Stuttering, but they got to be descriptive and they can't be judgmental. So it can't be words like good or bad, but more things like the shape, the color, texture. What are three, three words that come to mind when you think of your stutter.
- [42:24]
Vince Vaughter
When I think of my stutter or.
- [42:27]
Uri Schneider
Stuttering in general, you could bring it to yourself.
- [42:29]
Vince Vaughter
Or in general, three words that come to mind. The first one is interesting. I don't talk like everybody else, you know, I don't drone on like everybody else. You know, I have hiccups, I have hills and valleys, you know, have you ever talked to a person who, who, who, who just kind of is one level and drones on and on and on and on.
- [43:00]
Uri Schneider
And I think sometimes I'm that guy.
- [43:04]
Vince Vaughter
You know, you, you know, you're thinking, I wish he would do something else, you know, hey, you know, why don't you stutter a little bit? It'll be more interesting. The, the. The second word I think is, is. Well, this may, you know, once again, I may be the odd duck. I think you can see me searching some. I do the. No, no. And I substitute words. I substitute words. But I always, I try to make sure the word I have substituted for is a more interesting word. So I like to think I have a pretty good vocabulary because I can choose between a lot of words and some I will stutter on and some I won't. But I'm always searching for the best word, and sometimes it's a word I'm fairly sure I'm not going to stutter on. And sometimes I do stutter on, and that's okay. What's another way I would describe this is something I truly believe in. I think that people who stutter, I think we may have more empathy for other people when, when we struggle to get words out of our mouth, we see we are fallible. I think, I think we have an empathy for, for the other person because we know that while they may not stutter, they're probably going through the same things. They have doubts and they have doubts, challenges. So when I was in the newspaper business, I was a reporter, a copy editor, and then I got into management and the thing and the. I think, and I don't know this for a fact, I think what led me, what led my bosses into choosing me for management is because I had empathy for the people working for me. I knew I had gone through a lot of things and I knew that they would have to go through a lot of things. Not stuttering, but, but self doubt and Things like that. So I think I was a better boss. So. So I don't know. I don't know if I've answered your question or not, but those are the three words that came up.
- [46:26]
Uri Schneider
Interesting. Searching and empathy. Now I might get in trouble for this one. I'll take a chance since you did as well. But the irony, the irony of you ask a person who stutters, specifically those that enjoy searching and doing some word crawling through the thesaurus up there.
- [46:49]
Vince Vaughter
Yeah.
- [46:49]
Uri Schneider
The irony is they may get stuck on some words but when you ask them a closed ended question, they might give you a really long winded answer.
- [46:58]
Vince Vaughter
Yeah.
- [47:00]
Uri Schneider
Which is delightful. It kind of meanders and it's a delightful surprise as well. It makes it interesting. You think a person who stutters doesn't have as much to say or would be short. But sometimes it's. The circumlocutions take you interesting places. Sometimes distracting places, sometimes interesting places.
- [47:18]
Vince Vaughter
There's a quote in Paperboy from Voltaire who, who says speech was given to man to disguise his thoughts. And, and I think I just love that quote.
- [47:34]
Uri Schneider
That is stunning. And as a communication person, what I would say is the voice cannot hide person's thoughts and emotions and states. So you listen to the voice, you hear the truth. The words can disguise and mask. Listen to the voice. How you doing? Fine. The words the same. Fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. The voice tells everything. Now Vince, let's take a walk. Imagine I had the privilege to meet you when you were going into that speech therapy trial and error, when you were going through some, some times where you didn't feel you had anybody on the journey with you. And it was not the strong 75 year old accomplished by bio. Vince, what would be the three words that young Vince might have attributed Stuttering?
- [48:29]
Vince Vaughter
The first one is scared. I spent, I spent a lot of my youth just being frightened. I didn't know what was going to happen to me. And I guess the word I should have used first is confusion. Total confusion. I could not figure it out. You know, I would think, well, you know, I think my friends like me, but what do they think of my speech? And you know, I can't talk to them about my stutter and they don't talk to me about my stutter. You know, what's going on here? So, so, so it's fright, a confusion and then, you know, I don't know if, if I was like the average person who stutters, but I thought a lot about my future. What was I going to do? The big mistake I made was trying to find my self worth in things like sports and things. Like sometimes I would, I would try to be the life of the party, just saying short phrases and not really trying to talk with anybody closely one on one. Just a kind of a superficial attitude. So, you know, I think, I think confusion, fright, and then a concern about the future, you know. And I guess I should mention another thing. And as much as I hate to admit this, you know, I think it happens sometimes. I use my stutter as an excuse for when I failed at something like, you know, you know, I was always horrible at math and, and, and I would get a C in math, you know, sometimes a D. And you know, my parents would ask me about it and I would say, well, I couldn't go to the board and explain an algebra problem because couldn't anybody understand me? Well, no, the real answer to that was I was lousy in math and I didn't study enough. It was not because of my stutter. I think that sometimes we use stuttering as a crutch when it's another problem like, you know, you don't study hard enough in math, Vince, you know, stuttering is not your problem. You know, lousy homework preparation is your problem. So I think sometimes we feel sorry for ourselves and you have to get over that. Up to.
- [52:28]
Uri Schneider
Amazing. But as we come down the home stretch, there's more I'd love to explore. Maybe we'll have around two. Okay, I'll just tell you two beautiful things that I think will excite you and please you, and then I'll let you bring us home with one takeaway or one thought. What you know now that you wish you knew earlier.
- [52:50]
Vince Vaughter
Yeah.
- [52:51]
Uri Schneider
And that is number one, as you said, you don't have to go down this journey alone. Better to have someone along with you. You suggested it might be a speech language pathologist.
- [53:03]
Vince Vaughter
Right.
- [53:04]
Uri Schneider
I would suggest you get yourself an entourage or an entire caravan of community behind you, including family, including your school, your friends, your colleagues, etc. And a professional guide. That's tremendous. So we have this online transcending community, which is a private community, which I'm looking forward to showing you. And the second thing that we're unveiling and sharing, and you're a big part of it, you don't know that, but you are, is a toolbox for speech language pathologists and people who stutter. If. If as a kid you describe the scare, the fear, confusion, concern, the antidote to that is not a fluency technique. The antidote the antidote to that, antidote to fear is courage. Antidote to confusion is some clarity. And the antidote to concern is a little bit of, I hear you. Some validation. And it's okay to be concerned. It's okay to think about the future. And. And you got this having faith and having confidence and. That's right, having. Having people that have walked this road before you. So. So we created a toolbox which is kind of like a brain trust of all the best resources out on the Internet, but organizing the Internet of stuttering into one place that's searchable by age, by topic, by media. And you have two entries there. One is the book, of course Paperboy, which I encourage everyone to check out and copy. And the other one is Anna Paula at University of Kansas. They did a reading club, book club exercise around the book, which is an astounding.
- [54:43]
Vince Vaughter
They did a wonderful job on that. It taught me a lot more about my own book.
- [54:51]
Uri Schneider
Shout out to Anna Paula, Mumi and Spiro Stuttering University of Kansas. So if you're interested, check it out@transcendingx.com and the community is where you can get that toolbox. So, Vince, to take us home. What would be one takeaway? One thing you know now you wish you knew earlier and you'd like to leave us with some pearl of wisdom.
- [55:16]
Vince Vaughter
I think I'm going to tell a very quick story.
- [55:21]
Uri Schneider
We need to update your bio. Vince, your bio needs to include master storyteller. You told more better stories than any other guest we've had. Love it. Kick back, enjoy the story.
- [55:33]
Vince Vaughter
A few years ago, and I guess it was five or six years ago now, I was speaking at a middle school and it was the entire three grades and there was probably 400 people in the gym or auditorium or whatever it was. And so I gave my presentation about the book and what it meant. And there was this one young lady in the front row, and I could tell that she was hanging on every word. And I knew I was going to get a question from her. And sure enough, when I called for questions, her hand shot up. And so I called on her and she said, you are evidently proud. First I messed up the story. What she said first was, oh, I should have written this down. You would you have written this book if you had not stuttered? And I said, well, I don't think I've ever been asked that question. And I'm going to answer you honestly. I don't think I would have. I don't think I could have. And so I thought I'd answer a question. But then she came back out with me again and said, and so you can say that because you are so proud of this book that you are glad you are a person who stutters. And I got this big lump in my throat, and I'm. And I'm thinking, you know, I think she's right. I am glad I'm a person who stutters. It makes me who I am. It made me who who I am. So, yes, I'm glad. And I went home and I told my wife and I said, I think I just got about $3,000 in therapy on this talk I gave with this young little girl because she nailed it. Yes. You know, if I were given the choice at five years old. Nah, I don't want to stutter. If I'm given the choice at 75 years old, I'm glad I stuttered. It made me a stronger person. It made me who I am. And so I'm fine with it.
- [58:30]
Uri Schneider
Remarkable. Even more than the $3,000 in therapy, it sounds like your wife told me you got six inches taller. So I think those are very encouraging words, both for the parents of young children, teens, adults, and people that care about stuttering. And really, as you said, Vince, beyond stuttering, the book, the story, and these conversations are certainly most poignant for people who stutter. But all of us have something that we are challenged by. And by listening and learning to each other's stories of human courage and resilience and transcendence, we all stand a little taller, little wiser, a little more courageous. So thank you so much for this conversation, Ben.
- [59:16]
Vince Vaughter
Thank you, Uri.
- [59:19]
Uri Schneider
Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you want more, check out transcendingx.com podcast. Sign up for our email. You'll get exclusive clips, invites to events, and access to join our community, community and much more. If you just want to listen to more episodes, you can subscribe and drop a review on Apple, Google, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. Your subscriptions and reviews help us reach more people. Wishing you a great day.
- [60:03]
Sam.