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TranscendingX - Raw Conversations and Practical Tips to Break Through Stuttering, Communication Fears, and Become Who You Truly Are
#79 Life on Delay with John Hendrickson
01:13:37
John Hendrickson is a senior editor at The Atlantic and the author of Life on Delay. He previously wrote and edited for Rolling Stone, Esquire, and The Denver Post. His Atlantic feature “What Joe Biden Can’t Bring Himself to Say” was named one...
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the TranscendingX podcast where we lean into the human experience of adversity to discover ways to transcend and grow through life. I'm your host, Uri Schneider, Director of Schneider speech lead at TranscendingX and faculty at UC Riverside School of Medicine. Join us as we engage in wide ranging conversations with experts and real life heroes and through research, insights and inspiring stories, they share the inside story, how they do what they do and what we can learn from them to be our best in our own lives. Get ready to be inspired, informed and uplifted. Let's begin to turn the challenges of our lives into opportunities to bring out our best.
- [00:59]
B
Well, here we are. Uri Schneider, the host of Transcending Stuttering and today's guest is John Hendrickson. Thank you so much John.
- [01:09]
C
Thanks so much for having me on.
- [01:16]
B
Thank you for coming. I reached out to John quite some time ago following one of his recent articles where he interviewed now President Joe Biden. I'll give John's formal introduction because it's worth noting his accomplishments and what he does on a daily basis. And of course, he also is the author of forthcoming book called Life on Delay. And you can get that book on Amazon. It'll be coming out in January and I feel privileged to have gotten my eyeballs on it. I shared with John, off the record, that I am borderline dyslexic and that is not a joke. I got through serious literature classes in high school and college reading maybe one or two books. One of them was Catcher in the Rye, which also gets featured in John's book, but not many others. And I could not put this book down. So I cannot recommend this book enthusiastically enough. Again, it's Life on Delay. It'll be out in January, but you can already pre order it on Amazon and you can thank me later. So John Hendrickson is the senior editor at the Atlantic. He's also the author of Life on Delay, previously wrote and edited for Rolling Stone, Esquire, and the Denver Post. His Atlantic feature what Joe Biden Can't Bring Himself to say, was named one of the best stories of 2019 by long form. He lives in New York City with his wife. And I always like to ask our guest John, what's something that you would like people to know about you that doesn't appear in that formal bio?
- [02:58]
C
I'm a person who stutters and I think that's the reason I'm on this podcast here today. And it's it's been interesting making that part of my bio these past three or four years, because I lived the first 30 years of my life and didn't advertise that fact about myself at all. So I'm learning how to do that actively.
- [03:34]
B
Amazing. So there's a little game we'll play. It's just a free association. And we're here with the master editor, wordsmither. So if I say the word ice cream, what's the first word that comes to mind?
- [03:48]
C
Vanilla.
- [03:49]
B
Vanilla. I'm with you. Baseball. Baseball.
- [03:54]
C
Cal Ripken.
- [03:55]
B
I thought you might say that, having read the book. And then the next one, Stuttering.
- [04:04]
C
Journey.
- [04:07]
B
Awesome. I shared a little bit of my enthusiasm for the book. I think I mentioned it about three times before we even got started. And I mean, everything that I said, it is clearly something that stands on its own two feet. And the truth is, John, I would have you on the podcast even if you didn't stutter. Interviewing Joe Biden. The book kind of starts with that setting of you in the preparation room for the interview that followed the article coming out when you were interviewed on msnbc. And I remember that day, watching that video. And it was so powerful for me, getting the backstory. Because seeing you on television and reading the words you write about your experience are obviously the same and not the same. What you see is not what you get, and what you see on the outside is not what's going on on the inside. What would you want people to know about that interview that makes it that centerpiece launch point for the book starting? Because for many of us who saw it on the outside, it was remarkable. The poise, the confidence, chin up. And in the book, you share a bit of the inner experience. But if you could share just a little bit of what it was like in that prep room, going on stage, going on television.
- [05:32]
C
Well, thank you for all those nice compliments. I appreciate that a lot. I obviously had never done any tv, radio, podcast, any public making like that ever. And that day was a Friday morning, and the previous day, Thursday morning, was when my article went up on the Atlantic. And at the end of the day, Thursday, the invitation came in to go on MSNBC the next day. And I really had to think about it. It was not something where I'm like, oh, yeah, that sounds great. I was. I really had to take time to think about it, and I was terrified. And it was not something that I wanted to do, but I thought that it would be critical of me not to do it, because the thrust of my article I just written was about Joe Biden not fully owning the Present day manifestation of his, this fluency. How could I write that about someone else and then not go live it up myself? And I kind of thought, that's really my only answer here. So in those moments right before going on tv, I was absolutely terrified and not confident. Not like every other person you see on cable news, who's really polished and slick and talks in sound bites. And so I begin this book just trying to put the reader in my headspace in that moment, because I think it's beneficial just to be transparent and say no, I was not confident or ready. It was just, it was an opportunity and I didn't want to waste the opportunity.
- [08:36]
B
It's incredibly. It's incredibly raw and it's incredibly real. It's incredibly brave because you didn't have to do that. You accepted the invitation, you did the interview. And I'm sure you know some of this, but maybe not the full extent, but it made its rounds. It made its rounds in general circles, and it made its rounds in the stuttering community. And it made its rounds also in the professional community. And I think it's interesting, and I think it also spotlights the importance of recognizing that stuttering is not just what the listener sees and hears, but there's also that internal experience, the thoughts, the feelings that are as significant, if not even for some people, more significant than what is happening on the surface that's audible. Do you want to add anything to punctuate that? Because I thought you. Your way with words and your personal example is obviously just outstanding. I thought that was so well done at the beginning of the book. Do you want to add anything on that? Above the surface, beneath the surface, what you wish people would know about that.
- [09:48]
C
Thank you. Conversation is, is always an exchange. It's never one sided. That's a monologue. But the conversation is an exchange of ideas. And be it watching a conversation on TV or listening to a conversation on podcast, it's. It's a exchange of ideas. And two people are involved and they're two active participants. And I think that's a microcosm in every interaction. If you're buying a coffee, if, if you're, if you're ordering a restaurant, if you're picking up the telephone, there are two people involved. Or if you're at a party, you could be in a circle of five or six people and everyone's talking. And people who stutter know the mechanics of what's happening. They know what a block feels like, what a repetition is like, and, and we know what it is to Lose our breath and that lightheaded feeling. But I would imagine that most people who stutter would tell you that the toughest part is the reactions of other people. And I don't think you can really write about or talk about or make a movie about stuttering without giving weight and time to the reactions of other folks, particularly fluent people.
- [12:02]
B
Absolutely. You described this term and I shared with you in preparation for today. Right at the beginning of the book. You talk about when you, when I, you write, when I was young, my life was defined by little rooms. And you go on a bit later on page 12, you describe one of these little rooms. I'll just read this little section here because I thought it was, it was helpful. I think it was helpful for me as a speech therapist, it was helpful for me as a parent. It was helpful for me to think of being a classmate and I think could be helpful to listeners who are teachers, therapists, parents and classmates. There's a knock. Kids stare as I stand to leave the class. I walk down two flights of slate steps, turn the corner and enter a little room. Everything in the little room is little. Little table, little chair, little bookshelf. But now I'm older and I can hit a baseball and win knockout at recess. So the decor is infantilizing. I've always been tall and gangly. At seven, my knees barely fit under the table. Most little rooms are peppered with the same five or ten motivational posters, neon black letters, emphatic italics, maybe an iceberg or some other visual metaphor to explain your complex existence. This little room has a strange brown carpet that I stare into. When the school therapist brings up my problem. She's careful never to use the word stutter. Let's start from the beginning. Begin. So many conversations in these little rooms. You revisit these little rooms. Whether it's before the interview, you revisit this room and you go to meet with Dr. Joe Donahuer and then you talk about your psychotherapist George, and you compare and contrast the evolution of the fittingness of the feeling at home or the lack of feeling at home and the lack of feeling safe in these rooms and just reflect on that evolution of little rooms and what you meant by that and maybe obviously what we could take away from that. Just putting ourselves back at 7 year old gangly John sitting at a table that his legs don't fit. I can totally relate to that. And then finding comfortable spaces, comfortable rooms.
- [14:27]
C
Going to the little room and even just using that phrase. It's, it's very Much like saying, look, if I were to tell a fellow person who stutters, oh, I got the look just now at the coffee shop, they would know exactly what I mean. I wouldn't have to explain it. And I think if I were to say, oh, yeah, you know, when I was a kid, I was pulled out of class, went down to the little room, they would say, oh, yeah, yeah, me too. When you're four and proportional to the. To the objects and the decor within the little room, it's okay. As you keep getting older and older and bigger, it reminds you that you still have this problem that you had when you were 4 and that it hasn't gotten better and that maybe it's getting worse. And that this is a room for kids. This is a childhood problem. And you keep getting older. Maybe now you're 10, 12 and you're going to this little room with toys and you're too old to be in this room. That's a hard part of therapy. And as an adult, when I finally went to psychotherapy around the age of 30, it was once again in a little room, but it was lived in. And there were bookshelves and there was a picture of Bob Dylan. And I felt age appropriate in that room. And being comfortable in that room made me feel comfortable, as if I could open up and as if I wasn't just dealing with a childhood problem, but processing real life little things. And I think the physical spaces where we dig into these part of ourselves really matter.
- [17:28]
B
As I shared with you the day after I read that passage, I explicitly welcomed someone into a room where I was the host. And I said to this person who's in his 20s, said, I hope this is an inviting space for you. And I didn't have Bob Dylan on the wall, but quickly took interest in what he was interested in. And I think it's so interesting to hear you talk about it, that it made you feel like you should have taken care of this when you were a kid. You're still here. That's an angle that I'd never thought of. I do always think the importance of rightness, of fit. You wouldn't go shopping in the toddler section when you're shopping for a preteen. You know, it's different styles, different sizes to have anyone sitting at a table where their knees don't fit. I mean, that's a physically explicit indicator that the space doesn't fit the person and the person doesn't feel welcome. But there's so many other more subtle signals that we need to Consider in all the rooms that we host and all the rooms we send people into, there was another line in that same page. Goes on to the next page where the speech therapist starts helping you. And every time you block on a letter C, you write here, I sense a pinch of frustration from across the table. After enough attempts, I can read one whole sentence in a breathy robotic monotone. The car down the road. For some reason, this way of speaking is considered monumental success. I think the way I just read that is more embarrassing than my stutter. I think that's profound and surprising to a lot of people. It's not surprising to me, but it's a very poignant anecdote. Do you want to reflect on that? Why the fluid flow of speech in that manner which most people think is the golden rule is, is the measure of success. You know, the way we measure success. Helping someone who stutters is getting them to be able to have uninterrupted flow of speech. And yet you, in your book, and we can hear countless people report this. When you actually care to ask, how did that feel? Felt as you said, it felt more uncomfortable than just more embarrassing than just stuttering. I think that's profoundly surprising to a lot of people. Do you want to just shed some light on that?
- [20:18]
C
I think it gets back to what I was saying earlier, just about the nature of conversation. You know, we know the way everybody else talks and we know that we don't talk that way. And rather than pursuing total fluency at all times, I think a lot of people who stutter would be satisfied with just being able to be conversational and be dynamic in conversation, be improvisational and not feel like a robot. That early therapies scene is in the early 90s. And it seems that until roughly 2000, maybe a little after 2000, pretty much all therapy was based on fluency. Gaping and holding up fluency as only goal. And then you get to a place now where it's, it's much more nuanced therapy. And a lot of therapists really, really are promoting confidence and conversation and eye contact and they're, they're less putting fluency on the pedestal. My cohort, my generation probably is the last one to receive purely fluency based therapy as a kid. I would hope that now that first grade kid getting pulled out of class is getting a more grounded version of therapy, but you never know.
- [22:41]
B
Yeah, not to disappoint, but I think the purpose of your book is to raise awareness that that should be the way it should be and certainly the purpose of this podcast and the purpose of everything that I'm trying to do with transcending stuttering is to make sure that the kid in Montgomery, Alabama, and not to single out Montgomery, Alabama, but just taking one place that people don't think of. It's not New York City, but it's a place where people live. It's a place where kids get therapy. Most of them are getting therapy in school. That therapy shouldn't look the way it looked 40 years ago, and it should have that nuance, and that these young people should have access to people who are going to be champions, for them to have the confidence and sense of worth and sense of value, sense of trust in their words, that people will listen. And sadly, I don't think we've gotten far enough. And so I think your book is part of a process of evolution, of advancement, fixing. There's a lot more work to do that we can all do together. So I think, to me, that's the yardstick. It's not what's happening in the support groups of Upper Manhattan, which are wonderful, but it's really a question of how far can we go? How widely can we reach those kids that live in other parts of the country, between California and New York, those other states, and then people around the world. We're talking about millions of people who stutter. I'll get off my soapbox. There's one more anecdote that I'd love almost to invite you to close your eyes and listen to what you wrote here, because you describe the tension, you describe the tightness, you describe the feeling of uneasiness and class assignments, reading and saying one's name. Then you described a Scene of When Ms. Simpson cranked her radio. My shoulders dropped and my lungs felt full. We looked like doofuses up there in our khaki pants and plaid skirts, but we were a unit of doofuses. This has special meaning. Special meaning when you're the class stutterer. An hour ago, you were flustered and out of breath, pushing and pulling at a missing word, sensing that familiar sweat drip down the back of your neck. Now you're just another kid doing the swim under the boardwalk. So, you know, what was that like? Having those, I guess, respite or those opportunities to just exhale? And were there others? And how. How much did those mean to you?
- [25:10]
C
It meant everything. Music from a very, very early age was that respite and that liberation from dancing at lunch as a second grader like an idiot, to hanging along with the car radio, to A couple nights ago, it was a good friend's birthday and we did karaoke, and I sang multiple songs in a packed bar. And totally fluent. You know, it's a different neural pathway than the one used in conversation. And the list of professional singers who either either stuttered as kids or currently.
- [26:15]
B
Stutter is.
- [26:18]
C
Filled with icons. Elvis Presley, Bill Withers, Noel Gallagher, Ed Sheeran, Kendrick Lamar. And many, if not all of them have said music is. Is what made them feel.
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B
Free.
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C
And it's. It's amazing. I. It's. It's just an incredible feeling just to not have to think at all. You get up there and you could be in front of a hundred people at a bar and you're holding the microphone, and you just have total confidence that you're going to lose yourself in this performance. And it's, it's. It has this redeeming quality. And I think whatever that respite is as a kid, maybe it's music, maybe it's playing on a team, doing something. Maybe it's drama, art, writing. I think it's really essential to find that respite and live it up.
- [27:53]
B
I think, through the book. Many people have these posters from the Stuttering foundation or know that. You can look online and find all sorts of famous people who stutter, some of them openly, some of them reportedly, once upon a time talk about stuttering. Once upon a time. I won't get into the nuance of that, but I do want to. Just the idea of respite, and you talk about like, we can't minimize or trivialize the intensity of the experience. When you're living with life on delay, words on play, and the verbal expectations and the pace and rhythm of the world around you, whether it's your dinner table, that's a classic Carly Simon story where she couldn't get the butter from the other end of the table. So her somebody suggests you sing it out. And that's where we get Carly Simon. So there's this disproportionate number of people who stutter. The percentage of people in the performing arts who stutter is a higher percentage than the general population, which is not to suggest that people who are artistically inclined have some tendency towards stuttering. I think we would find similar in your field in journalism and in writing. I think people who make it, those who make it, those people who stutter, who make it, tend to discover and cultivate a very rich and deep expression through the arts, whether it's through writing, whether it's through music, whether it's Dance, whether it's through performance. I think what I just want to drive home is that the delight as a second grader of having a lunch dance off looking like a doofus. Two things stand out. One is your shoulders dropped. You could finally feel at ease. We all know, every human being knows there are certain situations that feel high stakes for the kid who stutters in the class. Everything feels high stakes, and there's very little downtime. And then suddenly it's recess. That's not downtime. That's not downtime. And so navigating communication throughout the day being such an enormous stress and press of just work of Schwitz. So the idea and the importance of finding those places of respite and delight where one can just let their guard down, what you said, it meant everything. And then the second part of that being, when you find a kid that is the summer kid, he doesn't thrive in the class, you know, the regular months of the year, but he thrives in the summer or he thrives in nature. He thrives in the music room. Whatever he's living through, whether it's stuff at home, whether it's stuttering, whether it's learning challenges, whatever that might be, cultivating those interests and giving that person an opportunity to really develop that part of themselves can make all the difference.
- [30:47]
C
I agree. And I think it gets back to the way we identify. Do you call yourself a stutterer? You call yourself a person who stutters? Writing in the book, I use them kind of interchangeably. But whenever talking or introducing myself or just describing things, 99 of the time, I say person who stutters, and I think that's important. And I. And it was important to me to not put the word itself in the main title of my book. It's in the subtitle, and the first word is obviously life. You know, this is a book about being a person who stutters. But more than that, it's just a book about life, as broad as that sounds.
- [32:08]
B
And.
- [32:10]
C
Paradoxically, this is a disorder that can find us in a lot of ways. It can find every aspect of our lives. But it can also be very motivating to be more than a stutter, to make sure that you are something else.
- [32:40]
B
I think adversity in general is challenging, and for some people, it's too much. And it can be something that really breaks people. And people drown without enough support, without enough of what they need as humans with oxygen. And oxygen has different currencies for different people. But at the same time, what you're saying is so very true that sometimes adversity, it develops a muscle that other people don't develop as quickly. And it can be an asset. There was a report you wrote in fourth grade where I think everyone had to interview somebody. And you interviewed your father, and you wrote about your father, who was a journalist, was that right? For the Washington Post. And you write in the last paragraph. This is John in fourth grade writing. Paul told me that reporting is more fun than writing because you find out what makes the world tick. Maybe someday I'll be an author, a reporter, a feature story writer, and a dad. John, there's the line that I was referring. So thinking about that now as your book is coming out, thinking these were the words you wrote in fourth grade and kind of just allowing yourself to dream or to write that, how do you reflect on that? Or does that hit you the way it hit me when I read the words on the page?
- [34:11]
C
Well, the fact that that's in the book at all, I really owe to my parents, you know, to my dad for being so great in that interview back in 1998, and to my mom for saving every piece of homework, every crappy little drawing I did in our class, everything, just boxes of it in our basement. And when I told them I was working on this project and I asked my mom, do you have any old photos, do you have any old things that I could look at? Yes. My mom was just her endless support and pride in me. Just had those boxes rolling and waiting and it head trip to go through that old stuff, look at your old handwriting, read those old words and put yourself back in that time and place. But it makes me very emotional and just very proud to think like when I wrote that class homework assignment in fourth grade, sometime in 97, 98, that now, and as it's about to be 20, 23, I'm gonna check that box, check that box.
- [35:51]
B
25 years later, it gives me the chills. I think so many kids dreams are killed before they breathe light of day. And I think we need to give them a little bit of light of day because 25 years is not a long time, but it feels like day and night. I'm sure knowing that what you're describing, going through during those years, to imagine that you had the audacity to write that, or whether it was just kind of felt like you were filling in the assignment, but to look at it be like, wow. And Joe Biden, I remember when he spoke, this was before he was selected to be vice president. Those talks that he gave live in person at the AIs benefit. He says, age 16, he had this wicked nickname, Dash, because he talked like Morse code, and that's how prominent his stutter was, that his, his nickname was about his speech. That's pretty defining and limiting. And he says, it was more likely at that stage in life that I thought I would win the Nobel Prize in chemistry than become a lifelong politician, career politician. And I stunk at chemistry. But the, the, the way life goes, it's like if we just let people dream a little bit, then they can live their dreams. It's amazing. And then you're blazing a trail for people behind you. There is a theme that comes through here. I'm going to jump ahead to another chapter here where you talk about your love of Cal Ripken coming back to baseball. Now, I wasn't from D.C. i'm a Bronx boy, so Cal Ripken didn't get on my wall, but I did appreciate his streak. For people that don't know baseball, Cal Ripken was a phenomenal player. But what stands out is the following. Number two, 632 consecutive games in the lineup. On the field and in any sport, we don't look at endurance and longevity the way we should. I won't get into the questions of Michael Jordan and LeBron James, but. But there's something to be said for longevity and consistency. And so you talk about having Cal Ripken on your wall, and you idolized Cal because he kept showing up. And I think that's also a piece of your story and a piece of what you're putting forth through the book. Do you want to just talk about the power of showing up, merely showing up, what that means and why that's significant?
- [38:26]
C
The poster on my wall, it was Cal with his. With his outstretched hand. It was on. On the night that Cal broke Lou Gehrig's original record, which was 2,130 games. And he took a literal victory lap around the park, and they parked, paused the game, and he got this amazing ovation. And it was a really emotional moment. It was like one of the greatest moments in baseball history. And as you said, it wasn't about the number of home runs he hit, the number of World Series he won. It was just that consistency. And the, the bottom of the poster says perseverance. And then it's a definition of the word perseverance. And I put that on my wall behind my bed when I was in third or fourth grade or fifth grade around that time. And that word was a little beyond my vocabulary at that age. But I had the definition of it right there. And I think just looking at that every day before going downstairs and going back to school and dealing with the very prominent stutter, it was just a role model. And there are kids who, who.
- [40:20]
B
Face.
- [40:20]
C
And continue to face much, much, much greater adversity than me. The much harder circumstances, the fact that I even had my own bedroom and a warm place to sleep, the fact that I had breakfast on the table, that puts me ahead of millions of people. And I, I absolutely recognize that. But in your 10 year old brain, being the only kid in class who stutters and having those books come around to read passages next, and you know it's going to be hard when it comes, you need a role model and Cal was mine.
- [41:17]
B
I'm so glad you brought that up because the other poster that I highlighted here is Jackie Robinson. And Jackie Robinson poster had another word and definition. That word is courageous. My friend Dan Greenwald loves to talk about the courage muscle. He's a person who stutters and he says people who stutter gotta flex the courage muscle every time you read in class. And however you face that moment, you can define it with the courage that you have and the perseverance that you display. And you can show your classmates, this isn't easy. This is me flexing my courage, my perseverance. It's a beautiful image of your bed. Cal Ripken and Jackie Robinson. I really appreciated that if we, I mean, it's hard to believe there's so many gems, but we won't get to touch all of them if we take like a meta pullback a little bit. And I asked you, what would you say are two or three characteristics that make John John, in addition to being a person who stutters throughout your life from being a second, third, fourth grader that we meet through the book till today, what are two or three characteristics that you feel stand out about you?
- [42:44]
C
Oh man, that's hard.
- [42:46]
B
We can skip it if you want. But I know you have perseverance and courage.
- [42:50]
C
Yeah, no, I'm happy. I think a lot of people who stutter or people with many other disabilities in turn, heighten the other senses. Aaron and the other language processing and the things I'm trying to say. And so I think ever since I was a little kid that I've been very observant. I loved just riding in the backseat of the car, looking out the window and just taking everything in and making a map of where everything was. I remember one time my parents were way and I had a babysitter and And I got sick and had to go to the doctor. And this was, you know, long before smartphones, Google Maps, anything. And the babysitter was briefly freaking out. And I told her like, no, I know how to get there. And. And it was a 20 minute car ride with a lot of left turns and right turns and all sorts of turns. And I was in elementary school and I was like, yeah, okay, go that way, go that way. And I gotta say. And so I think the power of observation in people who stutter is very high and going hand in that listening. I think every person who stutters I've ever met is a great listener. And we are careful to let other people finish our sentences. And I think we're empathetic listeners. And so the third quality maybe is the combination of observation and listening, which yields curiosity. And I think people who stutter are great at being curious about other people and asking people questions and really wanting to get to know someone. And those three qualities in particular are the bedrock of journalism. And I think that's one of the reasons I ended up as a journalist.
- [45:42]
B
Journalism and a couple other, you know, another good things professions and just people in life. So you don't, you know, this is not new to you, but for someone who hasn't heard it, I just want to punctuate like, right. The stuttering gains the idea that there can be strengths and assets that emerge from a difficulty and again, the sharpening cultivation of secondary things like these skills. And then just the fact of what stuttering can bring. It brings intimacy into conversations. It brings a slow pace. I so enjoy speaking with you right now because when we finish this call, my world goes back to 120 miles an hour. But as I choose to engage with you, once I get past the shifting of lanes of this arbitrary speed by which my mind and life might be running, I find it so settling and so much easier to be present with you. And so these are just thoughts to put out there for people that haven't reflected on this. I just wanted to put that out there. Now, coming back in contrast to that, John, those are things that have been there all along since you embarked on this remarkable journey of researching and putting together this book. What's something new that's emerging or something that you've discovered in yourself or that's coming out for new air something since you embarked on this project.
- [47:29]
C
I never had any stuttering friends. It was. It was always me. I was always on an island with it. I never looked her stuttering friends. I never thought they even existed. Obviously, I knew there were other people in the world who stutter. I knew that after my sessions in therapy, there would be a new kid coming in after me. But I never. Never dawned on me to try to be friends with that kid. And I. I didn't even think of it as a possibility. And writing my article about Biden just completely opened the floodgates to making many, many beautiful friendships with people who stutter. And we may talk about, talk about, talk about stuttering, or we may not. I. I got a text a couple days ago from Marco Malia from American Institute for Stuttering, and he was texting me about this 20th anniversary tour of Death Cat for Cutie in the postal service, and. And we had this whole conversation about music that had nothing to do with stuttering. But Mark and I are both people who stutter. So those bonds, those real friendships that developed in my Life just since November 2019 are profound. Awesome.
- [49:34]
B
And in looking at the sum total of the book, it's not. It's not a short book. It's also not dense. It really flows. If you had to choose.
- [49:46]
C
Yeah. It's what I just want to say.
- [49:48]
B
Because that's a please.
- [49:49]
C
Well, that's a thing. If I'm ever deciding to buy a book, I'm like, how long is this thing? It's 240 pages of text. And, you know, I was very careful. I wanted to make sure I wrote something under 300 pages. But 240 pages, just.
- [50:15]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And everything is in the eye of the beholder. Because for someone, again with borderline dyslexia, anything that goes. If I've marked up a book past the first 10, 15 pages, it's. It's an accomplishment for me. So it was in no way a swipe at the book, but more of a reflection for me to say it's not. Yeah. No, it's not a. It's not a. Yeah, you get the idea. What I do want to say is, And I would say this with sincerity. There isn't a page that feels like filler. It's not like the high school essays I wrote. Each page evolves. And I was sharing with John. I don't want to give away any of the secrets, but there were different pieces that left me on the edge of my seat, and I felt, I hope he's going to resolve this or tie this up. And I just assure you that that's the nature of the book. It just pulls you in, and it's a ride. And as John said, it's a journey. I Want to touch one or two more things, and then we'll come to close. In the book, you fall in love and you get married to Liz. And there's a line, and it says, when I look back at my life, I don't see it as before and after facing my stutter. I see it as before and after meeting Liz, she has allowed me to see the whole me and to stop running from it. What did you mean there?
- [51:52]
C
Liz is not a person who stutters, But Liz has a different neurological disorder. Liz has this, which grew over time in her body. It was initially something as mild as leg cramps, hand cramps, trouble holding a pen. It's a neuromuscular disorder. And as Liz kept getting older and got into college, it began taking over more and more of her body. And it got to the point where Liz could barely walk. And about a. A decade ago, he had brain surgery. They implanted two electrodes in her brain, connected to a wire coming down through her, connected to a battery in her chest. And when that whole system is properly.
- [53:09]
B
Working.
- [53:12]
C
Her muscles are fluid and she doesn't have any issue. And the average person wouldn't have any idea that anything was wrong with her unless you saw the incisions, incision scar on the top of her head where they implanted these electrodes. And the first night that Liz and I met, our first date, Liz told me about that scar completely nonchalantly, completely effortlessly, and without shame, without weight. And it blew my mind. And I told her about being a person who stutters, which is a thing I had never, ever done on a date or in many situations at all. Liz just immediately greeted me with that radical acceptance. And we just immediately had this bond where we understood each other, even if we had completely different disorders. And about nine months after that, I wrote my article about Joe Biden. And then ever and everything that came after. I've just been on this journey of acceptance that is in an ongoing journey still. But it really did begin with meeting her.
- [55:15]
B
So beautiful, so happy for both of you. What's something that you would want people to, you know, if someone was only going to read five pages, someone had severe reading or attentional challenges, like myself, let's say. And what's one, one thing in the book that you would really hope people don't miss that could be looked over? Is there something you'd really hope people pay attention to and take a moment to drink in?
- [55:49]
C
Well, let me just also say that for people with any visual disability or any reading disability or anything at all, there will be an audiobook. And that comes after the same day it comes out January 17th. I am not the narrator of it. It's a professional actor, George Newbern, who has a great voice. And I. I met with him and I talked through the mechanics of stuttering and just the layers of it. And I have total confidence in him. And I think the audiobook is just under eight hours, so not as long as other books. There are some books that are in 20 hour audiobooks.
- [56:48]
B
Been very grateful if you would have given me advanced release on that one, but that's good to hear. That was an alley oop for you to plug the audiobook as well. All right, thanks.
- [56:58]
C
But if you choose, if you don't have that time, or as you said, if you don't have the time or resources to read a whole book, I hope that you would take away.
- [57:22]
B
That.
- [57:24]
C
It's. It's a little cliche to say, but change is always possible. Change in yourself, change in others, change in perceptions, change in what you think your limitations are. One of the toughest things to grapple with is this idea that we hear all the time that say, well, people don't change past a certain age. People, they reach a certain age in adulthood, and they just won't change. And I think there are parts of our personalities for which that is true, but I think there are larger parts of our lives, more important parts of our lives in which change is literally always possible. And for years ago, you and I are having this conversation in early December 2018, four years ago. And you're in. I'm sorry, we're having this conversation in early December 2022. So four years ago, in early December 2018, I was about two weeks away from meeting my now wife, and I had never introduced myself as a person who's the person who stutters in my life. I had never come on a podcast, I never thought of that as even a possibility, and never written anything for public consumption about stuttering. And just in that brief period of four years, I've turned all that upside down. And so I think it's just so important to hold on to the possibility of change and change in a positive way.
- [59:51]
B
That is profound. So I want to read one excerpt here that just punctuates that. And again, to me, the. The juxtaposition of your childhood letters and it seems like your parents being organized scrapbookers or whatever would be the right description. It really was, was all a gift, and it was all laying the seeds for you to have these resources to revisit include in the book. But referencing that project in fourth grade where you said, you know, you wished maybe one day, who knows, you might be a writer, journalist, write a book. You write here. Towards the end of the book, coming back after you wrote the article on Joe Biden, come back to your high school. And as Kevin interviewed me about my career, I felt myself watching the scene from above. I had been in the same classroom 15 years ago, sitting in one of those desks, terrified of having to speak. There are many days I doubted that I'd ever be able to hold a job. Now I was here to offer students advice and so just to punctuate the change is possible and, and how. Wow, that's just absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning. There's two more questions and then two more things to just bring out. It'd be so hard to leave without. What would you say to your 12 year old self knowing what you know now? So if you can go back in time and I'm sure you've seen the Joe Biden video which we'll include in the show notes where he was interviewed and asked this very question. But if you can go back and talk to John Junior High school, knowing what you know now.
- [61:37]
C
Oh.
- [61:38]
B
Would be your message to younger John.
- [61:46]
C
I think at the age of 12, I envisioned myself reaching some mythical day in the future when I would no longer stutter. And I would tell myself that day is not going to come, but it'll be okay. I would also tell myself that this thing, this daily problem of yours will be your biggest motivator in life. And it's going to make you work harder, it's going to make you put in longer hours, it's going to make you too much of a perfectionist in certain aspects of your work. And it's, it's just going to give you grit. And even though there are many parts of the day that are difficult, it's, it's gonna light a fire under you to try to accomplish some things as an adult.
- [63:09]
B
Incredible. There's. I won't give away who this interview is with or who this conversation is with, but it's pure gold. So I do want to read this last excerpt. Just pull it up here. Yeah, yeah. It's in a conversation. I just want to say the people you interview range from celebrities, politicians, artists, everyday heroes, everyday people. And I don't want to drop names out of missing anyone, but the range of people you interview is absolutely incredible. And there's a conversation you have towards the end of the book and you're Sitting with someone and you say that you feel lucky and fortunate, that you have Liz, that you have good friends, and that you're able to work, and this person says to you, you're not lucky and fortunate. That makes it sound like it just landed on you. You created this with fortitude and bravery that I don't have. And I would not have made it through. I would not have managed this, persevered through it. I think overcome is fair because it doesn't mean to beat it. It means, and you say it means you can overcome the fear of stuttering. And so there's so much to be said about that. But I think it beautifully brings us back to Cal Ripken. It's that perseverance and it's the courage. I don't know if you want to reflect on that passage, but the idea of not feeling like you survived and you were lucky and fortunate, but to have people reflect back and say, you earned this, this is your destiny, this did just fall on you. To me, that was a very profound exchange.
- [65:05]
C
That beautiful quote is a quote from my older brother, and it's one of my favorite parts in the entire book. And I think he is able to express something there that's just incredible. It's overwhelming to hear him say that. And it's. It's hard for me to take compliments. I think a lot of people who stutter have a hard time taking compliments. And we are trying to direct the conversation elsewhere and direct attention elsewhere. But that meant a lot coming from him. And I'll cherish that moment with my brother forever.
- [65:57]
B
For the sake of time. Unless you want to go there. I would just say that the lesson of that conversation, and really that I took away from the whole book and we talked before we started recording, is just because something's uncomfortable, it might be important enough to still talk about it. And to avoid important conversations is not the better choice. It might be the more comfortable choice. And if that means you're a young person who stutters and you're scared to bring up a conversation with loved ones who are trying their best for you, and whether that's a teacher, a therapist, a parent, sibling, and whether that's a parent or a teacher fumbling to do the best they can with the best intentions, don't miss the opportunity to find a way with love and sincerity and authenticity, to be direct and matter of fact. And I want to give a shout out to Joe Donahue, who also has a beautiful place in the book, and he. He was that person for you. Where he just said it square. He said, john, yeah, you have a severe stutter that must be hard. And not beating around the bush about it, but not being critical, not being judgmental, but. But not being around the bush. And you had spent quite a bit of time with everyone beating around the bush. And so the book, in my eyes, is the conversation that we would all be better off having sooner than later. And it's wonderful. It's a blessing for you and for everyone in this book that you brought this conversation to the light of day, because I think too many people walk around with these shadows and these vaults shut tight. And there's a chapter where you talk about that. So I want to thank you for that and leave with this opportunity. If you had a billboard and Times Square, John, and you could put one message up for the world to hear, and it doesn't have to be the perfect sound bite, but if you had one message you could leave up there in Times Square on a billboard, what would that be?
- [68:05]
C
Man, that's hard because it's got to be pithy.
- [68:08]
B
See, don't overthink it. It's kind of like the ice cream baseball stutter. You went with journey. Just go with what comes.
- [68:17]
C
I think I would say give up on perfection, and that perfection is not the goal. You know, so I would say that. That the billboard would say give up on perfection. And if. If anyone asked me to explain it, I would just say that perfection is not the goal. Perfection is often not beautiful. It's. It's not as beautiful as something that's unvarnished and authentic and real. And it takes a lot of work to actually move your mind away from that goal. It's a lot like trying to move away from the fluency goal. You know, they're very analogous there, but if you can work to actually get past that idea, I. I think it opens up so many more possibilities in your life, and it will yield more interesting experiences and conversations. And there are so many other more noble goals than perfection. You know, it would be like if I came on this podcast and two minutes into it, or 10 seconds into it, had my first block, and then I was beating myself up. Well, okay, you already blew this one because you didn't even make it through one sentence without some form of disposing, just, you gotta give up on that goal.
- [70:19]
B
Since you brought that up, this could be cut later. Or we can keep it. What was the internal voice here? Was this an easy, effortless conversation for you, or the presence of stuttering gave you some self talk? Of self critique or heavy monitoring? Or did it feel kind of at ease and spontaneous?
- [70:47]
C
Certainly spontaneous. Certainly at ease. And with each passing week, month of my life, ever since really confronting my stutter, it. It gets easier and easier. And it. It exists every single day. But I just don't fight every single block the way I used to. And I really focus more on the content of what I'm saying as opposed to the number of seconds of a block.
- [71:30]
B
Stuttering paradox.
- [71:32]
C
Yeah.
- [71:33]
B
Profound. Profound. Well, thank you for this conversation, this opportunity. We might end up having a T shirt with that billboard quote. And we'll say, talk to John if you want to know what it means. I love to say, you know the saying, another lie that we're told is practice makes perfect. Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. And if you practice running away and you practice avoiding, that becomes pretty permanent, pretty fixed. But as John said, it's never too late to change. As long as you got another breath, as long as you got another day that you wake up, the opportunity is there to start practicing, leaning in and daring to say the things you want to say and dream the dreams you want to dream. And hopefully this book, Life on Delay, will be something that opens those conversations and creates space for more people to dream and for more people who don't stutter, to connect to the human experience of people who stutter. Because I think all of us have something that sometimes holds us back from doing the things we really feel we have a calling to do and that we should all live with. A little bit more courage, like Jackie Robinson, a little bit more perseverance, like Cal Ripken, and really learn from John. So the book will be available on Amazon. I'm forever grateful for your advanced copy and getting to read it. Life on Delay. Let us know what you think. And thank you so much, John.
- [73:00]
C
Thanks, Uri. I appreciate it a lot.
- [73:02]
A
This episode is just the beginning. You can listen to more episodes, join us for events, masterclasses, workshops and trainings. You can join our private community. Check it all out@transcendingx.com email and you can sign up to get our emails.
- [73:20]
B
And see what works for you.
- [73:25]
C
Sam.