#89 Confidence from the Courtroom to the Boardroom - Stuttering and Leadership with Mike Liben

Summary

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Podcast Summary: TranscendingX Episode #89

Title: Confidence from the Courtroom to the Boardroom – Stuttering and Leadership with Mike Liben
Host: Uri Schneider
Guest: Mike Liben
Date: January 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and deeply personal conversation, Uri Schneider, speech therapist and performance coach, sits down with longtime friend Mike Liben—childhood subject of a seminal stuttering documentary and now CEO of Chai Travel. From formative moments in childhood, through a rigorous legal career as a Brooklyn DA, to running a successful travel company, Mike shares raw, candid insights into how stuttering has shaped his identity, his leadership style, and his commitment to substance over style. The episode explores the interplay of vulnerability, resilience, and authenticity—demonstrating how what is perceived as adversity can be transformed into profound leadership strength.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Substance Over Style: Mike’s Core Value (00:03 - 05:48)

• Obsession with Substance: Mike explains his priority on the substance of communication, valuing what is said over how it is delivered.
  • “[Style] can oftentimes be focused so much...I really, I have an obsession with, I think, substance.” (02:24 - Mike)
• He intentionally focuses his energy on delivering the message rather than managing fluency at the expense of depth.
  • “It takes away from the cognitive ability to focus on the substance of what I am saying, which is the most important thing to me.” (04:35 - Mike)
• Balance with Style: Mike acknowledges sometimes needing to “push the slider” toward style, especially in high-stakes situations, but substance is usually paramount.

2. Early Memories and Formative Experiences with Stuttering (06:11 - 11:50)

• Formative School Experience: Mike recounts a traumatic but pivotal elementary school moment, leading the Pledge of Allegiance and experiencing a “mountain sized block” in front of hundreds.
  • “It was a couple minutes, like in real time. That was a very hard moment. One that stuck with me for a long time—except did not stop me from seeking out those opportunities in the future.” (06:29 - Mike)
• Adrenaline Rush: Despite hardship, Mike describes a rush of pride after completing tough speaking tasks.
  • “There’s a rush...of oh my God. I got through that and I did it.” (08:37 - Mike)
  • “The only way to get better at doing things that are hard is to do things that are hard.” (09:42 - Mike)

3. Navigating Social Reactions: The Dumbest and the Most Helpful (09:50 - 13:02)

• Unhelpful Advice: Mike shares some of the most misguided comments he received:
  • “‘If I stomp my foot while I am stuttering, I will eventually be able to get it out. Needless to say, it has not worked yet.’” (10:01 - Mike)
  • “Did you forget your name?” is a question he still receives. He responds directly, “No, I have a speech impediment.” (10:40 - Mike)
• Best Support: The most helpful response is simply waiting and listening—treating him as you would any other speaker, with patience and respect. (11:57 - Mike)

4. Family Influence, Resilience & Role Models (13:02 - 22:38)

• Mother’s Support: Mike’s mother, herself a person who stuttered, was a quietly steady source of support.
  • “She was always tremendously supportive emotionally from day one.” (13:27 - Mike)
• Father’s Intensity: His father was “tremendously intense” and often worried about Mike’s future because of his stutter, but ultimately modeled relentless resilience in facing his own challenges.
  • “The same intensity, relentlessness...was the model of how he operated in the world.” (19:42 - Uri)
• Role of Dr. Phil Schneider: Mike’s speech therapist shaped his perspective, helping him reframe stuttering as a universal challenge and distilling guiding mantras.
  • “He also was able to phrase these things that I had been feeling in ways that became my own mantras...” (20:40 - Mike)
• Transmitting Resilience: Uri reflects on the idea that resilience is often inherited not genetically, but through modeled attitudes toward adversity. (20:10 - Uri)

5. The Bar Mitzvah Speech – A Formative Public Experience (22:38 - 31:15)

• Meticulous Preparation: Mike, Phil Schneider, and family spent months preparing the speech, including extensive practice, scripting pauses, and planning coping strategies. (22:44 - Mike)
• Performance Under Pressure: Despite preparation, Mike’s speech was characterized by notable stuttering. Phil Schneider stood beside him, a supportive presence, but Mike gave a subtle nudge to “take over and get through this” solo.
  • “I wanted him there beforehand. But then...I was just going to get through this thing any way I could at that moment.” (25:56 - Mike)
• Impact Over Fluency: The message, centered on “fences” (obstacles) and personal perseverance, resonated with the audience. Mike received deeply grateful letters from attendees moved to address their own challenges.
  • “It wasn’t perfect, but I think I got my point across.” (29:37 - Mike)
  • “They heard the message. And if you had given the talk or anyone else gave the talk, they might not have sent those letters.” (30:19 - Uri)
• Mantra: “I have this challenge in my life. Here’s what I’m doing about it now. And yeah, it’s not perfect, except we do what we have to regardless.” (30:21 - Mike)

6. Living with, Not Moving On from, Adversity (30:45 - 31:26)

• Uri and Mike discuss the power of embracing difficulties as integral, not as burdens to be discarded.
  • “I don’t want to get on with it without it...I want to get on with it, with it. Not moving on past it, but like, with it. Moving into life.” (31:15 - Uri)

7. Choosing a Demanding Career: Law & the Courtroom (31:26 - 39:31)

• DA Career & Stuttering: Despite his stutter, Mike chose to pursue law and become a Brooklyn DA, delivering public arguments daily.
  • “There were probably a couple different avenues you could have chosen than being in the courtroom.” (31:57 - Uri)
  • “At the end of the day, I believe in the importance of substance over style.” (33:40 - Mike)
• Interview with the DA: In a final interview, the DA offers Mike a writing assignment due to his speech; Mike insists on full DA duties.
  • “Because at the end of the day, I think what I have to say will trump, however I’m saying it.” (35:23 - Mike)
  • “Well, you clearly don’t lack for confidence, so we’ll go with that.” (36:13 - DA, recounted by Mike)
• Hardest Day: Mike describes the intense anxiety of his first “calendar call” in court, where he took several minutes just to say his name. But over time, his diligence and preparation made him the preferred ADA in court.
  • “After a few months the judges started preferring I was there because the overall efficiency and the overall content was going to be stronger and quicker.” (39:31 - Mike)

8. Entrepreneurship & Leadership: Chai (Chai/Hi) Travel (39:46 - 52:13)

• Founding Chai Travel: With his siblings, Mike started a new travel company, building from scratch after decades of observing his father’s legendary example in the industry.
  • “Regardless of what your last name is…to start something truly from the ground up has a lot of challenges.” (50:14 - Mike)
• People First: Taking inspiration from his father, Mike emphasizes treating both clients and employees “like family,” leading with empathy and fairness.
  • “All it is is people and people have their own problems in their lives. Properly running an organization is helping people…in whatever way that we can.” (48:20 - Mike)

9. Stuttering and Leadership – Empathy, Challenge, and Growth (48:12 - 50:55)

• Leadership Lessons: Stuttering has given Mike empathy for others and unique experience in handling challenges. He credits it for his approach to people management and leading through vulnerability.

10. Advice for Others & Dispelling Misconceptions (56:23 - 58:44)

• Biggest Misconception: Stuttering (or any communication challenge) is not disqualifying for meaningful or high-pressure roles.
  • “Because there is this challenge, because there is this fluency, it is automatically disqualifying from doing anything…I do not believe that that is the case.” (57:00 - Mike)
• Let Children Lead: Urges parents and educators to respect young people’s priorities regarding speech and therapy, allowing agency and balance.
  • “You need to let your kid or your student really be the one who’s deciding on the course with this kind of thing.” (57:33 - Mike)
• Mantra for the Billboards:
  • “Substance is what matters. That’s it.” (58:46 - Mike)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s the only way to get better at doing things that are hard is to do things that are hard.” — Mike (09:42)
• “I have an obsession with—I think—substance. And yes, you need the style, but I’m always extremely focused on…the substance of things.” — Mike (02:24)
• “You clearly don’t lack for confidence, so we’ll go with that.” — DA to Mike (36:13)
• “If the message is there, then the fluency in the style is really secondary.” — Mike (28:54)
• “I think what really resonated with people…is I have this challenge in my life. Here’s what I’m doing about it now. And, yeah, it’s not perfect, except we do what we have to regardless.” — Mike (30:21)
• “All it is is people and people have their own problems in their lives. And a huge part of properly running an organization is helping people…in whatever way that we can.” — Mike (48:20)
• “Substance is what matters. That’s it.” — Mike (58:46)

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Key Timestamps

• Substance vs. Style, Mike’s Philosophy: 00:03 – 05:48
• Childhood Memories & School Challenge: 06:11 – 09:50
• Bad Advice & Good Support: 09:50 – 13:02
• Family Influence & Resilience: 13:02 – 22:38
• Bar Mitzvah Speech Transformation: 22:38 – 31:15
• Accepting, Not Erasing, Adversity: 30:45 – 31:26
• Becoming a Prosecutor: 31:26 – 39:31
• Entrepreneurship & Company Culture: 39:46 – 52:13
• Leadership, Empathy, and Growth: 48:12 – 50:55
• Advice and Misconceptions: 56:23 – 58:44
• Closing Reflections: 58:44 – End

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Natural Takeaways

Mike’s journey demonstrates that adversity, when embraced with authenticity and a focus on substance, can become a source of confidence and connection. Leadership, he illustrates, is about empathy, resilience, and helping others find their own strength—not erasing difference, but leveraging it for collective good. His parting message is simple yet profound:
“Substance is what matters.”

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Transcript

[A]

I have an obsession with a substance.

[B]

What would make this a win for you?

[A]

I'm just looking forward to having a natural kind of flowing conversation that could happen at 8 or it could happen right now at the age of 40 and I would still answer exactly the same. It's really about a balance. There are times when I need to turn it on and I need to push the slider a little bit into the middle between the style and substance. But usually I err on the side of substance. It has provided me with a lot of empathy for, for working with people who are having their own issues. And a huge part of properly running an organization is helping people in whatever way that we can.

[B]

This episode with Michael Lieben is unbelievable. I've known Michael since I was a kid. He's the 8 year old kid in the beginning of our documentary film, Transcending Stuttering. His journey has been an inspiration and a lesson for all of us. And it's so exciting to sit down with him now as he leads as the CEO of Chai Chai Travel. And we cover everything from his time in the DA office in Brooklyn to being the CEO and growing up from that kid who was eight years old in my dad's office to becoming the man, the husband, the father and leader that he is today. Welcome to TranscendingX. Whether it's stuttering, public speaking, or crucial conversations, all of us have something that holds us back. What if there was a way through it? I'm Uri Schneider from Schneider Speech, where we help people talk more and fear less. And I'm the host of the TranscendingX community. Join me as we talk to high performers, researchers and everyday heroes to discover how they transform their challenges into breakthroughs and most of all, find ways for each of us to transcend X in our own lives. So thanks for coming in, Mike.

[A]

Well, thank you very much for having me. I'm really excited about this.

[B]

So I told you, I always like to start like, what's one thing people don't know about you that doesn't show up or something you're proud of that doesn't show up on your Resume or on LinkedIn or in public, but it's something that's important to you.

[A]

Yeah. So, you know, I think what is really important to me, especially in the context of what's on a Resume, what's on LinkedIn is, um, which can oftentimes be focused so much on style that I really, I have an obsession with, I think, substance. And yes, you need the style, but I'm always extremely focused on, on, on the substance of things and taking the opportunity to figure out how to. Bring that out of people and organizations.

[B]

Substance, what you have to say is more than how you say it. And another line that you've said is, and this is really striking, this is one of these, these paradoxical, counterintuitive things. When people listen to you and you have a stuttery moment like that one, people have all kinds of thoughts about what's going on in your head and what's happening. And I remember in one of the documentary films, I think it was the second one. So the first one is transcending stuttering, the second one's going with the flow. You say, you know, stuttering is just one of a thousand things that makes you who you are. And in the beginning of the film, when you're eight years old, you were in my father's office. You had a pretty stuttery day that day. And, and then my dad does this little experiment with you and he says, well, what if you try going like this and talking like this and all of a sudden in the same day, same hour, the words just kind of flow out of your mouth. And then my father asks you the question that most people don't ask, which is, which did you prefer?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you say the first one, kind of stuttering my head off as an 8 year old. And he says, that's surprising. Why is that? You said, well, the other one takes a lot of work.

[A]

Yeah. And it, you know, the truth is that could happen at 8 or it could happen right now at the age of 40 and I would still answer exactly the same. And the answer was remains the same. Because it isn't only a lot of work to have to, you know, be hyper vigilant about the way that you are speaking. But more importantly to me, it takes away from the cognitive ability to focus on the substance of what I am saying, which is the most important thing to me.

[B]

So it's like a really intentional decision for you. For some of us we can choose substance. We could slide this way. But for you it's really intentional.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, also, as I think we'll probably hit a few more times, it's really about a balance. There are times when I need to turn it on and I need to, you know, hit. I need to. Push the slider a little bit into the middle between the style and substance abound, speed speaking. But usually I err on the side of substance.

[B]

So like the stuttering is, can be an elephant in the Room. I don't want to be the only thing we talk about, but let's just lead with it because I think it's, it's the thing that a lot of people are really curious about and then there's like so much more to slide into. We're going to talk about leadership and entrepreneurship and being second generation or following in the footsteps or blazing our own paths with fathers who are giants and giant fans, least on your dad's side.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So yeah. So like what was. What stands out to you as a impressionable memory, the earliest memory or the most impressionable memory of childhood? Growing up with a pretty strong stutter.

[A]

It's hard to think of the first memory I have as a person who stuttered because it was. It. Because it was always present. In terms of the first kind of impressionable memory that I have in terms of this was a really hard moment. I remember being, I think it was in actually towards the. End of elementary school and I was. And I had the opportunity to lead an assembly including all the parents were there in the audience, all the kids were on stage and it was my job to recite the pledge of allegiance. And so I walked up to the front of the stage and completely blocked, like a mountain sized block on the very first wort and, and you know, and I was under the lights, all my classmates were behind me, a few hundred parents were in front of me and it just wouldn't let up. It was a couple minutes, like in real time. It was a couple minutes. And that was a very hard. Omen. One that stuck with me for a long time except did not stopped me from seeking out those opportunities in the future. I don't really know why, but it did.

[B]

Are you a masochist? Like what is it might be.

[A]

You know, I think the truth of the matter is there is, you know, for me, no matter how long that time is where I was unable to speak right afterwards, right when I got the pledge of Allegiance out, eventually there's a rush and I don't know if that's just kind of programming or what it is, but there was a rush that completely washed away the really traumatic feelings that I had a couple minutes before.

[B]

I never heard you say that. Can you describe that rush? Like give it some.

[A]

Yeah, it's like an adrenaline rush almost of oh my God. Like I got through that at and I did it. And I like the feeling of having, having, having, having completed this public speaking experience in some way. And that has, that has been true time and time again. Where oftentimes I'll be in a high stress communications. Situation and it will be. And I think it can be hard throughout and a little stressful throughout. And then immediately afterwards I just feel great about it.

[B]

Feel great. It's not just like I survived.

[A]

No. It's feeling really good that I did it.

[B]

I think people who stutter and people like you, I think of. And I don't want to like steal your experience, but I think of, you know, if you grow up doing hard things. Yeah. So you can do things that are hard.

[A]

Yeah. It's the only way to get better at doing things that are hard is to do things that are hard. It's like anything else in life. It's a skill that you can learn and cultivate.

[B]

What was, what was the dumbest thing someone said to you growing up? You must have a. A long list, but if you pick one or two, the dumbest thing, whether it was a teacher, a family member, a speech therapist, a friend.

[A]

I remember. I can't remember exactly who it was, but somebody told me if I stomp my foot while I am stuttering, I will eventually be able to get it out. Needless to say, it has not worked yet.

[B]

No. What was another one? Not just a tip of what to do, but like, I don't know, some completely unsophisticated, off, off point and maybe bothersome dumb.

[A]

You know, even though it's really like.

[B]

Did you forget the Pledge of Allegiance? Like I'm thinking, oh, no, the most.

[A]

Common one is and still happened to this day. It happened last week. Did you forget your name? Yeah, that happens all the time.

[B]

Are they serious?

[A]

And that is something that I've come. Well, you know, I. It is a. It's a very bizarre question to ask. I don't know if it's joking or if it's should just because they're uncomfortable. Maybe, but it is a really common one. It happens a few times a year.

[B]

How do you deal with it?

[A]

I say, I'll usually respond that I have not forgotten my name, I have a speech impediment, I have a speech issue. And that really also then flips the tables completely in terms of the dynamic. And I will usually get some kind of overly obsequious apology that they feel terrible for having said that.

[B]

And how do you feel about that? Do you ever get that look like that pity? Oh, oh, I'm so sorry.

[A]

You know, if I do, it really doesn't register for me like that because I think I, you know, that isn't anything that is that I feel. And so. And if that's what people are transmitting in, it's not how it's coming over to me.

[B]

So if you transition to, like, what was the dumbest thing, what was the most helpful thing? What are some helpful moments or helpful experiences?

[A]

You know, as I think most people would say, the really, the best thing, obviously, is just to wait. Right. To just really say nothing or do nothing the way you would. Aiding for anybody else to finish speaking. And in terms of, you know, what people actually say that I find to be meaningful or helpful is. Is what, what, what, what, that, what, what? And I'm done speaking. You know, people will often share their own experiences with people, with people who stutter or, you know, words of encouragement are fine, as long as it's really genuine and nice. Yeah, that's all good.

[B]

And what about your parents? Your parents, Cindy and your dad, Barry, who passed away. It's going to be almost six years now, coming up in January. And then you met someone by the name of Dr. Phil Schneider at some point?

[A]

I did.

[B]

So, like, what. What roles did they play in your journey to kind of getting to where you are today in relation to this? What are some.

[A]

What.

[B]

What are some outstanding inputs or moments or inflection points?

[A]

Yeah, the three people you just mentioned, primarily your par. Primarily my parents. And then, you know, in the same group, certainly. Yeah. Or Father Phil, are the three most critical people that I had in my life in terms of creating the right attitude around. Around. This particular issue for me, you know, and each of them in extremely different ways. My mom grew up with a stutter as well, so she had a lot of. Perspective on what it was like. And she was always tremendously supportive emotionally from day one, and always extremely patient and always extremely kind and supportive in her own quiet, steady way. My dad, there's.

[B]

Let's just like, get a picture of your dad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So not in his own quiet way.

[A]

He didn't do anything. In his own quiet way, he did everything tremendously, intensely with all of his heart and with all of his. With all of his power and all of his resources and just everything he had. But, you know, the flip side of that was it could be very intense about things and, you know, oftentimes early on and. And there was a pretty key turning point in involving National Stuttering Association. But prior to our involvement, and until I was about 11 or so, it was very hard on my dad. I think he had real concerns over if I would be able to be a. A. Fully functioning member of society if I would have a family if I would have a job. And as was pretty classic of my dad, who was the most wonderful person, but you knew exactly where he stood. He could never hide it. He was not able to hide it from me either.

[B]

Subtlety was not a strength of his.

[A]

Correct, correct. So that was very hard on him. And you know, it was not a secret to me how hard it was on him. And that was one of the, one of the harder parts of navigating this issue as a child was also was, was dealing with his feelings around it.

[B]

How did that play out? What, do you have a memory of that? So, you know, school age kid.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. As a, as a school age kids, I mean, I did a lot of speech therapy and I remember very clearly his frustrations about why it wasn't working. He's like, you know, we spend all this time on it, all these resources on it, and yet it isn't working.

[B]

Well, he told my dad the same thing. I think he said, you know, we've been coming here this many times, he still stutters. I want my money back.

[A]

Yeah, that sounds like dad. That's like that. And you know, I think it wasn't until, until later on a. When we got involved in a little bit of the larger stuttering community and he was exposed to a lot more people who dealt with this issue. And he saw that they were fully functioning members of society and they had jobs and they had families and they did all the things that they had all the, they had all the wonderful parts of life that people have and all the trouble people have in life too. And the other part was, I think he saw me grow, he saw me grow into my own life a little bit and he realized, oh, know, this kid's probably going to be okay. And so, you know, What was interesting to me also to keep the conversation on him for a little bit. And I don't think he ever realized this, but he, but a part of why I was able to attack this issue the way that I did and not let it stop me was also watching him a little bit. You know, he had his own issues. He was pre. He was relatively physically limited for a large portion of his life. And I watched that. He never let that stop him. He went everywhere. He, he, he did what he wanted to do and he, you know, used everything available to him to alter the world in a way that, that he'd be able to operate inside of it comfortably. And I think that is that while, you know, not, not obvious to me until I think after he passed probably was a lot of how, how I was able to look at this challenge in the way that, that, that in the way that I have so powerful.

[B]

The same intensity, relentlessness. That was a little bit rough as being his son who stutters as a school age kid was the same relentlessness and toughness that was, was the model of how he operated in the world that then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Later on you're able to say like I, I actually got a lot from that.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And you know, he didn't really want to talk about his stuff, but he was happy to throw himself into, you know, in, he was happy to throw himself into the stuttering world and help in any way that he could.

[B]

I think just in general, an interesting thing that I started to see, I think I got from my dad, if I had time to do a PhD, I would look at less about the like genetic transmission of a gene. That's interesting. And there are a lot of people doing that research, but looking at the transmission of resilience, the transmission of temperament. And so like if you've got a kid dealing with adversity, you're dealing with adversity. A really good indicator is looking at how the previous generation deal with adversity.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it's very striking. Yeah, it's very, very striking.

[A]

Yeah. And in terms of the work and the friendship with you, you, with your dad, Phil, I mean, you know, he, he talks about having learned from the people that he worked with and from me. But the, and the truth is, you know, I think a lot of what I use as my own guiding principles around this issue really come directly from him. You know, I, because we would spend a lot of time talk, talking about how I was feeling about things, you know, what the work kind of meant on a level of well, do you want to, do you want to use the skills? What do you want to accomplish out of this? And I think that was a huge part of it. And also, you know, he, he, he also was able to phrase a lot of these things that I had been feeling in ways that really, really then became my, my own mantras. And he gave me a lot of credit for them. Except I, except a huge amount of it I got from him. What's one for sure, the whole thing about how viewing stuttering more as a, as, as, as a universal challenge that, that we all have and we all deal with and if you think of things like that, you don't feel as, you know, you, you, you, you, you don't feel as isolated and you think yes. I've got this challenge. Except everybody has their challenges. This is just what mine looks like.

[B]

Good transition to the bar mitzvah speech.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So what. What's your memory of that bar mitzvah speech? We said we would tell that story.

[A]

Sure. So, you know.

[B]

Because there's the bar mitzvah speech and then there's the meeting afterwards where you said, I think I'm done with therapy.

[A]

So truthfully, you know, the speech I remember quite well. The meeting afterwards, I don't have as clear a memory of, but we'll talk about it. The bar mitzvah speech itself, we worked on that for a long time because that was the component of it that g me the most anxiety. I knew I'd be able to do the Torah and the half Torah because there's almost an element of musicality to it and chanting to it. I knew that was going to be smoother.

[B]

And just to set the scene, we're talking black tie affair, a lot of adults, a lot of your parents, friends.

[A]

Exactly. And everybody was already in the tuxedos. It was a havdala service, so everybody's ready for the party. Probably. I don't know, it looked like a thousand people there, probably 300 people there. And you plan this, you know, you. This is something you work on and you plan for years or, you know, more than a year. And my parents asked me if I wanted to do a speech. I said I did. And then me and your dad, we got to work on it, and we wrote it. It was only. I mean, it was a few pages. We wrote it probably six months in advance. You know, this is probably the most worked on bar mitzvah speech of all time. Presidents have given speeches that had less. That had less preparation and brain power involved. So we wrote it months in advance, and we practiced it over and over and over again. I remember we spent weeks practicing it. Whatever. I'd be there on Wednesdays. That is what we did. And we put slashes into all the places that I would insert a pause. We worked on, you know, on certain sounds were going to be problem areas. We worked on smoothing them out, you know, all the ways to set me up for success. And then also, I don't know whose idea it was, but we thought it'd be a good idea for your dad to stand up there on stage with me to help me through it. And so the big day comes. You know, everybody's out there, they're all watching. And I get started, and, you know, I don't know when, but Pretty quickly, the wheels came off, the fluency. And it was very clear because, like, once it got to a certain point, at that point in my life, there was really no coming back. Like, I was in a mode where this was just going to be bumpy, and this is just what it was. And I remember your dad being up there standing right next to me and, like, really earnestly trying to help in whatever way he could, like reminding me where I was supposed to pause, slow down, what the techniques were. Which is exactly why. Why, you know, he very considerately agreed to be there, because I'm sure that was not a usual request, but it was kind of. Him put himself in this.

[B]

Did you want him there, or did you find it at the beginning intrusive or overwhelming?

[A]

I wanted him there beforehand. But then when, like, I was just going to get through this thing any way I could at that moment, in that moment, then I remember thinking, you know what? This isn't serving any purpose. We're just going to get through this thing. And we did.

[B]

Well, you gave him a little.

[A]

I. You know, rumor has it I gave him a little nudge that, you know, I got. This one's on me, and I'm gonna get through it whatever way I can. And, you know, the truth of the matter is, when you're a kid, you don't think about this. But from his point of view, I'm sure that that was a hard moment. Well, maybe not, but he's up there in front of everybody, ostensibly to help this thing go smoothly and more fluent, and it didn't. So I've always wondered how he felt in that moment, and I'll ask him one day, but I can share the.

[B]

Folklore in our family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What was your experience?

[A]

Okay, so my experience was exactly the way I described before. It was pretty hard in the moment, a little painful as I was getting through it. Except I knew that the message got across, the words got out.

[B]

Do you remember what the message was?

[A]

I do. It was about challenges. It was about fences, and it was about how. I don't know if I could give it verbatim, except I remember that, you know, it was this story of Jacob and Esau, I think, and about how they were coming back together after having this horrible rift in their relationship. And that was a challenge in Jacob's life and how he navigated. Do I have the story right?

[B]

And the Labava Jerubba says that when you get to fences, a lot of ways of confronting offense.

[A]

Yeah. You can go around, you can go under, you can go over it. But, you know, I think it was also. You can go through it. And.

[B]

And then you said, yeah, this is my fence.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And this is what I'm doing about it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

What's your fence and what are you doing about it?

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Pretty powerful for bar mitzvah boy.

[A]

Yeah. And look, as I said, you know, you. Your dad was critical in the formulating of the actual kind of, like, words back to substance. Yeah. Yes. And so that. And it was clear to the message, you know, really did get across. And it was. One of the formative experiences I had was when we heard from a lot of our family friends and our family afterwards about the poignancy of the experience for them, that if the message is there, then the fluency in the style is really secondary. And it was the first kind of true example that I had of that in the real world, even though I'd always felt it.

[B]

So it's powerful because it was an experience for you, and it solidified what could be talked about. But until you experience it and you get that feedback and you get through it and you feel it and you stood there and you stay in the pocket, everything's collapsing. That's the way I describe it.

[A]

Collapsing. Pocket's a really good way.

[B]

Pocket is collapsing. I would run to my own end zone to escape these, like, massive people chasing after me. But your ability to hang in the pocket there, deliver the message, and then people sending you this feedback. So the story goes, the way my father tells is you show up two weeks later to the office, and you're like, I think we're done. I think we're done. And my dad's like, why is that? You know, you seem to still be stuttering, and I guess your dad's still invested in, you know, supporting you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're like, well, you know.

[A]

It.

[B]

Wasn'T perfect, but I think I got my point across. And. And. And you pulled out, like, some envelopes of letters that people sent to you, because you said, like, this is my fence, and this is what I'm doing about it. Like, well, what's your fence and what are you doing about it? And people wrote you letters like, you know, not just a check for the mazel tov on the bar mitzvah, but, like, hey, I had been out of touch with my mom or I'd fallen out with my brother. And because of your talk, like, I confronted that, and I, like, did something, and I came back together and I repaired a relationship. And you said, you know, Phil, I think that it wasn't perfect, but it didn't need to be. And they heard the message. And if you had given the talk or anyone else gave the talk, they might not have sent those letters.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think it has something to do with me.

[A]

Yeah. And I think what really resonated with people and will always resonate with people is more so than I had this challenge in my life and I no longer do, and here's how you can do the same, is I have this challenge in my life. Here's what I'm doing about it now. And, yeah, it's not perfect, except we do what we have to regardless.

[B]

Yeah. I heard a speech. I wish I could pull up his name. I'm blanking out. He lost his son, and people said to him, you know, you got to get on with it. Get on with it, move on. You can't stay in the sorrow and in the loss. And he said, I don't want to get on with it. I don't ever forget my son. I don't ever want to forget the blessings. I don't want to be ungrateful for everything I have, but I don't ever want to let go and forget. He said, I want to get on with it. With it. Not without it. Not passing on, not moving on past it, but like, with it. Moving into life.

[A]

Yeah. And. And it sounds like bringing it along with him.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So your dad. Big shoes to fill.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Cell travel was like cast a big shadow. Cell means shadow also.

[A]

I didn't know.

[B]

I know that's not the root of the name of the. Of the company, but your dad and his all caps and just his presence and his relationships and his core know, guiding principles. So what was it like? Kind of like. Well, first you went into. Into being an attorney.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You were in the DA office.

[A]

Exactly. For 11 years. Yeah.

[B]

Tell us about that. You were fighting to protect people who are victims of domestic violence and others.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So picturing you with this stutter, there were probably a couple different avenues you could have chosen.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Than being in the courtroom.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then we'll get to tell travel. And. But, like, when did you decide you wanted to be an attorney? And. And what did you have to do to kind of like, earn that spot? It's not. It's not a. It's not an easy position for anyone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not a lack of competition for that position. And then you've got this. This speech thing that you got to navigate.

[A]

Yep. So pretty early on in life, I knew being an attorney was Was one of the probable careers. I always enjoyed arguing, and in a respectful and constructive way, I always enjoy debating. And so that was a pretty natural path in that regard.

[B]

The fluid seems natural to you? Because I think most people hearing that would say another. Another paradoxical statement. It seemed, like, natural for me that I wanted to get into being an attorney and using words to debate ideas.

[A]

Yeah, no, that's true, but it just always was.

[B]

That would be like your dad saying he wanted to compete in, like, sprinting in the marathon. He was a marathon guy. He was an ultra marathon guy. But he was not, you know, a sprinter.

[A]

That's right. You know, there were certain, you know, look, let's not say there are no fields that I might have been disqualified from because of my fluency. I probably couldn't be a phone sex operator. But other. So. So there might have been disqualification. So there might have been disqualification somewhere.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it. But it.

[B]

Knowing you, I didn't see that coming, But I'm not sure that was actually something you were aspiring to. Let's just keep moving towards law.

[A]

But the point is that there might be that the law, I think, because at the end of the day, I believe in the importance of substance over style. I think it would surprise people to hear that in the courtroom, really, substance is critical at the end of the day. You know, people have a conception of trial attorneys as extremely flashy, you know, extremely smooth. And the truth of the matter is the best ones are the ones that are the most prepared and the ones who put the time in and the ones who have focused on the substance. And, you know, that learning that through experience, while I. While I always believed it was the case, but getting up in front of people, trying cases, arguing legal issues in front of. In for a lot of judges was. Was. Was further proof that at the end of the day, the substance is what's going to carry the day.

[B]

There's a conversation I've heard told of you speaking to the D. A to kind of just assure him or. Yeah, it was this very.

[A]

It was the last round of the interviews.

[B]

It was, you know, you got to be very careful in interviews these days. Yeah, very. And here you're, you know, of all places, you're DA In. In. In Brooklyn. So what was that conversation? What did he say to you and what was your response?

[A]

So he said. He said something along the lines. It was a prior DA not the current TA it was something along the lines of, you know, we're very excited to have you here, and we know you deal with the speech issue. So if you want to be assigned to a place where that is less of an issue for you, were you doing more writing, we, we'd be happy to do that. And I essentially said, absolutely not. I would like to go the path that, you know, that all the new ADAs take. Because at the end of the day, I think what I have to say will trump, however I'm saying it. And he said something along the lines of, well, you clearly don't lack for confidence, so we'll go with that.

[B]

Wow. What was the hardest thing that you had to do in that, in that stint?

[A]

So like most things, early experiences are the hardest when you're getting even a modicum of comfort. So, you know, one of the new things you had, one of the early things you have to do what when you start at the TA's office is you have to, you have to, you have to do what's called the calendar, which means in like the, in like the initial courtrooms where all the cases are heard prior to trial, you, you, you need to give a quick status update on every single case on the calendar that day. And there could be 80 to 100 cases on in a given day. And your job is to give a quick, short and like to the point update to the judge about what's going on in the case. And you do that for like eight hours. And so on the very first time I had to do it, I caught up the podium, set the scene. There's all the people who have their cases on that day. All the defendants are in the pews behind you. They are all in court until their case is heard and they cannot leave. So they want this to go quickly. The judge wants this to go quickly. The defense attorneys want this to go quickly. Everybody wants to. Answers go quickly. And the very first thing that you have to do is you have to put your name on the record.

[B]

Then you'd say, you better not forget your name.

[A]

Exactly. Better not forget your name. You know, the very first thing you say is assistant district attorney. So you can see how it went. Michael Lieben are the people, your honor. And the very first time I had to do probably took me two to three minutes. And the judge was like, I don't think the judge knew what to do. Everybody in the courtroom was like, what is going on here? And because I think the judge was staring down a, the judge was doing down a 16 hour day. It should have been a seven hour day. But you know, as it always is, that first time was very hard. And there were you know, there were a few hard days like that, but. But after a few months the judges started preferring I was there because the overall efficiency and the overall, the overall content was going to be stronger and quicker.

[B]

So not only did you make it, but you became the preferred.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Above your peers. Amazing. And then when did you transition? What was the initiative on your part to transition from the career as a prosecuting a DA office.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To the entrepreneurship and leading high travel.

[A]

So I always wanted to do something entrepreneurial. I mean that's obviously a big part of our family. Something I inherited for. For. For. For. For. For. For. For my dad.

[B]

We talked about your dad's physique and his personality. Yes, but just for those that don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So over 40 years ago he buys a small travel agency.

[A]

Yeah. So he bought one third of a small travel agency in the, in the. Lit. It lit. Let. Let 8 1970s which only served the New York to. To. To Tel Aviv market. And over the next 40 years he turned it into the largest agency in New York and one of the largest in the country.

[B]

And no longer just New York Tel Aviv.

[A]

No longer just New York Tel Aviv. You know, they did everything everywhere. They had, you know, they had a, they had a lot of offices around.

[B]

The country and self made men.

[A]

Completely self made. Completely self made. You know, really a story that you do not hear that often.

[B]

Barry Lieben Google it L I B E N yes. As impressive as Mike is, his father's story is also something extremely inspiring and.

[A]

It'S amazing in his way, his legacy.

[B]

Lives on and we're approaching six years, but good. So his, his entrepreneurial example.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Was always there in the family and something you wanted to, to follow in some way.

[A]

Yes, and. And in 2021, Me and my sisters got together and we decided we were going to start a new travel company.

[B]

And each of you had been doing other things.

[A]

Each of us had our totally, totally.

[B]

Lined up with travel agency business. You coming from the prosecuting attorney's office?

[A]

That's correct. I had a sister.

[B]

Your sister was a social worker?

[A]

Exactly. My other sister used to have a, A, a retail clothing store in New Jersey. So really travel oriented. But you know, the truth is we grew up around the travel business. We had, we had wonderful relationships in the travel business and that was the most critical thing that, that we needed because it is very much a people business.

[B]

And so what was your dad's credo? What was he known for?

[A]

It was all about family. You know, he treated everybody like they Were a member of the family for better or for worse. Which means you got the best of it with him. And you got the not so good stuff too.

[B]

Everybody got the all caps correct, shorthand messages, no holding back, no subtlety.

[A]

Exactly. And what also set him apart is he treated everybody in his organization like they were family.

[B]

Top to bottom, every employee.

[A]

Exactly. You were the vice president. You're one of the messengers regard. You got treated like family and you were treated fairly. And so those, those are the types of things that we have brought to, to our venture travel. And, and, and in our few years it has proven true that if that, that, that. Those things still matter to people.

[B]

So what are, what's, what's your position in the market? Like, what type of travel travel do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if I'm looking, we do a.

[A]

Little bit of everything. We do leisure travel. Any of you want to take your family on vacation? We do, we do, we do. We do corporate travel as well. And we do a. Air amount of entertainment travel. We have a great team that does that.

[B]

We.

[A]

Which is, which is a, which is a, A. Lot. A, A, A lot. A lot of touring musicians use us to. Did their travel and logistics.

[B]

I'm gonna detour with a quick analogy. I want to dive into like what was happening right there inside Michael's head. Inside Michael's body. I flew a couple days ago. There was more turbulence on that flight than anything I've ever flown before. There was another time your dad was very helpful because we were leaving. National Stuttering Association Conference in Florida. We were due to come back to LaGuardia. The weather wasn't right. We circled a little bit and then we ended up landing in Norfolk, Virginia and we had to spend Shabbat there. That's an amazing story in and of itself. But figuring that all out and of course all caps short messages are going back and forth with your dad like family. But I'm just thinking like when you're stuttering like that, when do you sign to reroute?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like take a stopover or an unplanned exit, you know?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Or when do you say, like. Nope. We've got our flight map. We are going down this road as long as it takes. And what's the turbulence that we see? The physical. On the lips.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm curious like on the inside, if you're like, okay, just buckle up. Everything's going to be just fine. You know, like, like, yeah. Like the front of like an 18 wheeler has like that cushion seat. So like it would be A rough ride if you didn't have that. Yeah. Like you just kind of hang in and like. Yeah, all right.

[A]

Yeah. So for me, I mean, I rarely change the flight plan. Sometimes I do. But you would not want to fly on my plane. I don't think I would be a great pilot because I would just head right for the turbulence and stay in it as long, as long as it took to get through it.

[B]

Doing hard things.

[A]

Yeah. But you know, there are times in which I say, okay, you know, there is a, there is an alternate way to approach this. And you know what is happening in my head at the time you usually, I'm just thinking about the next thing that I'm gonna say.

[B]

How does it come up in travel? Like what does it do for you? What does it do to you in running a business and leading a business?

[A]

Yeah. The truth of the matter is it really is not a huge factor.

[B]

Take the DA's advice and like let other people be front facing and deal with a lot of talking and you just stay behind a screen or, you.

[A]

Know, the, the, the, the, the, the answer to that is no. You know, I lead our, our, our weekly, in our monthly meetings, I'm out. Solve the problems that need to be solved. And at the same time for a lot of other reasons. There are people on our team that are really good at what they do way better than I will be at it. And I allow those people to do those things because, you know, whether I'm fluent or not very fluent doesn't mean that I'm the best person to, to solve certain problems in my organization. And that's why we have a wonderful team.

[B]

What, what is stuttering taught you or emboldened in your leadership or dealing with entrepreneurship?

[A]

Yeah, I, you know, I think it has given me a unique amount of experience and, and, and. Perspective in approaching things that are hard in dealing with issues that come up. And also I think it has provided me with a lot of, a lot of, a lot of. Empathy for working with people who are having their own issues. Because when you run an organization, All it is is people and people have their own problems in their lives. And a huge part of properly running an organization is helping people with, with all the problems that they are having their lives in whatever way that we can.

[B]

What's been the biggest challenge in taking Hyde where it's at today?

[A]

You know, it's interesting. We are, we went into the family business without a business, so we started this from scratch. Our dad was a, is, was a legend in the business. The Company that he ran is a. Is a. Is a. Is a great company and it still exists. We had to start our own thing from scratch.

[B]

Am I pronouncing it right? High travel.

[A]

So there are multiple pronunciations. A little bit like zel. You know, we say chai. We say chai. Just whatever works for people as long as they're talking about us.

[B]

Depends if you want to have tea or have a look.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so, you know, we really need to start this from scratch. And, and regardless of what your last name is, regardless of what you have available to you, to start something truly from the ground up has a lot of challenges along the way, and that has been the case. But we've really. We've, We've. We've. We've re. Re. We've really come a long way and we're excited about the next couple years.

[B]

Looking back, what's one that you weren't sure you were going to get through? And looking back, you can like, say, like, wow, we. We pulled through that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We had this breakthrough, like, yeah.

[A]

So. Not to be too repetitive, but it's really about the people. And what we were not sure of was would we be able to. To sell the key people that we needed, we needed to attract, to work with us on our vision and on, you know, this, this, this, this, This, This newer thing that wasn't as established. We really didn't know if we were going to be able to do that. We thought we could, and we have pro. We have pro. We have proven that we can. But there was certainly a time in which we weren't sure we'd be able to.

[B]

What's your dream? Five years forward, what do you want cell to look like or. Excuse me, what do you want?

[A]

I would like it to look a lot like it does right now, just a little bit larger. Awesome. Yeah, awesome.

[B]

What other questions or what didn't I ask that you would have wanted me to ask?

[A]

I'm curious to hear what. What you. What your family's version of the bar mitzvah speech story is. Because you alluded to it, but you didn't say it.

[B]

Legendary. To me, it's the quintessential example of, like, my father standing up there. My version of the story, and, you know, corroborate or correct me if you wanted him there. It wasn't that he was imposing or that he was. No. 100% hovering and overstepping the boundaries of where you. And once things got rocky, you know, there wasn't a need his, his presence you didn't need him. You could stand there on your own. He was an accessory. He was a supportive presence to a degree. But once the speech, as you said, went off the rails in terms of fluency, but it stayed on the track of where you wanted to go with the message. Okay, so at the moment that you ask him to go off the stage or give him a little elbow, however it was transmitted, I think my mother was mortified. She felt like he had failed you. I think that as empathetic and supportive and value centered as my father is in the work and my mom is in her way and understands the work, there is a feeling of like, if someone's really stuttering full force, like you sort of did let him down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and so there was that. There was that feeling. And I think all of us feel that. Like, I had it yesterday. I ran an off site for financial firm and like, while it was happening, the messier things got, the more important it was to have those messy conversations. But there's also this feeling like, am I going to lose? Is everything going to go off the rails?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Are we going to be able to get this back together again or are we going to go over the edge? And so I think seeing people go through hard things, you can't. You can't spare people going through hard things.

[A]

No.

[B]

But I think as a coach or as a therapist or as a guide, you always want to know, am I pushing the athlete to the edge and beyond or am I like, abusive?

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Is it.

[A]

Is.

[B]

Is giving my kid the license to quit therapy, is that like negligence or that's actually empowering and giving them agency.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that dance. So to me, the story is, is that because my father quickly pivoted from his initial thought that he also failed you to realizing, you know, what my role is to. Is really to give the person the hope and the confidence until they have it themselves. And once the person has it for themselves, they're independent. Yeah. You step back and you let them shine with their own light. But if they need some light, if they're feeling like they're drowning or they're in the darkness, you're there to give some light till they take it for themselves.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's 100% right. And, you know, I think from the beginning of that experience through to the end, it was. It became a huge, a huge source of strength for me. And I think that is how everybody ended up feeling about it at the end of the day.

[B]

Yeah. And I can't tell you, even though it's not clear in your mind, the version of the story that I tell, I must have told. North of 250 times. And it's, it's, it's extremely inspiring. And it's also counterintuitive because I think whether it's stuttering or as you said, I think, you know, it's not that it's something from the past. And whatever adversity we're facing, things that have been with us for a long time or usually they stick with us, if we have anger issues, if we have health issues for one reason or another, if we have attentional issues, executive functioning issues, whatever they are, they're going to be there to some degree or another for most people for a long time. And so seeing you and how you, how you roll with it, it's counterintuitive because a lot of people still think there's like this fix it. If we just, if we just practice enough, it'll be gone. You'll talk like everybody else.

[A]

Exactly. And then life will be so much better.

[B]

So what would you say is like the biggest misnomer or the biggest misconception people have? And how do you want to set the record straight? Maybe they're parents that are listening, maybe they're school age kids that are, they're in therapy having a great experience but wondering what they could do in life. Or they're having a hellish experience with somebody telling them to tap their foot on the floor.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. And they're dreaming. Like, you know, once upon a time I wanted to do debate. Once upon a time I wanted to be an attorney. Once upon a time wanted to be an entrepreneur. I don't think it's for me, maybe I should do like accounting. Right. Nothing against accounting, but I think so misnomers, setting the record straight. And what would you want to say to these young people?

[A]

Yeah. So I think the largest misnomer is again, that because there is this challenge, because there is this fluency, it is automatically disqualifying from doing anything because I really do not believe that that is the case.

[B]

Second thing is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What would you want, what would you think would be helpful? It's like setting the record straight.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How to, how to, how to view this, whether you're that young person, a parent, a teacher.

[A]

Yeah. I think you touched on something and I think it is true that you need to let your kid or your student really be the one who's deciding on the course with this kind of thing. Because there are times and there were times When I didn't want to be in speech therapy because I wanted to just do other things. I wanted to hang out with my friends.

[B]

Yeah. Better things to do on Wednesday night with girls.

[A]

Yeah. Exactly. Like, whoa, whoa. And those things were meaningful to me. And having the ability to say to my parents, I want to prioritize these things. And them saying okay. Further gave the impression that this doesn't have to be at the forefront. Because if you're hearing from your parents, from your teacher, from whoever it is, that, no, this needs to be your top priority, then you internalize that. That the flu. That. That the floor fl. That the fluency is what matters.

[B]

Imagine Michael even could put a billboard in Times Square. What would it say?

[A]

Oh, you mean about anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not.

[B]

Not advertising the agency.

[A]

Okay, fair enough. Yeah. It would be. Substance is what matters. That's it.

[B]

I'm thinking about, like, your anti. Substance abuse. You're all about the substance. All about the substance.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly.

[B]

That's fantastic. Any parting thoughts? Parting words?

[A]

I just really appreciate this. This was great and it's amazing and it was really good. And it's a reminder that I gotta call your dad and say hello.

[B]

For sure. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for coming.

[A]

Absolutely. Thank you.

[B]

Thanks for listening to Transcending X. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who could benefit from it. If you want free tips to help you talk more, fear less, sign [e-mail] email until next time. Remember tomorrow's breakthroughs, start with what we do today. Let's keep talking.