A (4:50)

Yes, Dusty, that is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about, the 10 minutes in the morning to tidy up the kitchen, which, by the way, was my example. For me, I have learned to let go of a clean kitchen as a goal and instead to sort of treat it as this thing that I am continually doing a little bit at a time. And that works really well for me. And so when my coffee is brewing in the morning, I take 10 minutes to do whatever. This morning, I actually took that 10 minutes to continue disassembling my dishwasher so that I can repair it, which is technically in service of tidying the kitchen.

B (5:30)

Oh, no, not the dishwasher. Oh, my God. I had to clean my dishwasher filter last night, too, and it was, like, all full of chia seeds and glitter. Ugh.

A (5:39)

Chia seeds and glitter. Yeah. Mine's not getting power right now. And I. I'm in an era where I'm trying to learn how to do more DIY. So I. I had the 10 minutes this morning. I had found the instructions last night to take the next step when I got stuck yesterday. And so this morning, I use those 10 minutes to finish the disassembly process. So now it is fully disassembled. We're waiting on some tools before I can do anything else, but I was able to move that forward. And by the way, here's a place where we can get really hung up. Is that all or nothing? Thinking is, I moved it forward. I've made a huge mess because there are now dishwasher parts all over my kitchen and dining room. But it's not done, and I can't get it done right now, but it's ready for the next step. And so, see, kind of breaking out of that all or nothing thinking that routine has to necessarily equal completion in some form.

B (6:39)

Yeah, that's huge. I see that with clients a lot, you know, and the most extreme examples usually come into. I find it's. It's most extreme where people have to go outside and they don't want to be perceived unless they're put together. Which is interesting to me because I'm totally fine being, like, a huge slob. Like, I will just drop my kids off at school. I don't even have A bra on. I'm wearing, like, the same pants I was wearing yesterday. Like, I. Sometimes I forget that other people can see me, but I have some clients for whom it's very distressing to go outside. Or maybe they live in an apartment where other people could see them if they haven't, you know, showered, shaved, all that stuff. But that is often necessary for, like, other tasks, like taking out the garbage, taking out the recycling. Right. And so you'll get this kind of like these interlocking dependencies where it's like, well, I can't break down boxes because the recycling is full, but I can't take the recycling out because I haven't showered and I can't shower because of this other thing. Ergo, I just have to deal with all these boxes in my space. Right. And it's like a. It's a. I had a client describe it as if you give a mouse a cookie type of situation. Right. And I've. I've definitely found ash kind of like what you're talking about. For me, one of the biggest things that has helped me to keep my house at a dull roar is actually not so much following through on. On one thing, but just putting things kind of generally where they need to go. Like, if my recycling bin is full and I can't bring myself to take it out, rather than just not take it out, I will just move it to the stairs, for example. And then the. And then the next time I'm near the stairs, I'll just grab it as I'm on the way somewhere. And so a lot of things in my house, I'll just put them generally in, like, an area where I know that, like, future Dusty who's passing through this area can deal with them. And that has helped me a lot with not needing to, like, stop what I'm doing to, like, attend to the laundry or attend to the dishes or attend to the recycling. It's like I can just set it in motion. I can do a first couple of steps so that I can then do the thing I'm trying to do. Like, if I need to use the sink and. And the sink is full, I can just put the dishes next to the dishwasher to load them later. I don't need to spend 30 minutes getting off track and then have no energy left to use the sink for what I need it for. I can actually just make the sink accessible. And so finding small ways that we can lean into the things we're already doing, you know, habit stack, like, get value out of where we're already going to be is great because it doesn't add on in this energetic fashion where now it's like all these things you have to remember and you have to do it the right way or not at all. I think it's about being imperfect and messy, but still making progress, Right?

A (9:14)

Exactly. Dusty. I'm sitting here kind of chuckling to myself because your clients with the don't perceive me unless I'm ready to be perceived thing. I definitely have that. Ages ago, on this podcast, I was talking about a mantra of mine. Start with cleaning. That's a foundational routine for me. My days always go better if I start with a shower and fixing my hair and putting on decent enough clean clothes. Because if I haven't done those things, that becomes a barrier to doing so many other things, as you've just described. So, listeners, if that describes you, that might be a foundational routine that you need to establish for yourself. Desi, I want to kind of shift gears a little bit and talk about task management, because that is an area where clients come so often looking for routine and where clients are so prone to over engineering or attempting to over engineer.

B (10:18)

Yeah, you know, it's something I think about a lot because I run an online community. And in that online community we have like a new group that we started last year called the Consistency Collective, which is all about systems maintenance. And the first year that I beta tested it with clients, I warned them that it was a beta test. And sure enough, I had a lot of clients get really stuck in this, like, systems overwhelm and perfectionism. Because what I did was I asked everyone, like, what are all the different areas of our lives that a person might need a system? Right. Like house cleaning or meals or exercise. Those are really obvious ones. But we even got into stuff, like the sort of nuanced things that you might not think about, like friendship or even like spirituality. Right. Like having a routine to. Actually, I had a client who was really struggling to do like, Bible study or like, actually make the space to, you know, not be so busy that they never felt like they could connect spiritually. So I sort of came up with these headers and I was like, these are all the different sort of areas that you guys have identified. I'm going to come up with some resources so that if you guys are struggling in these areas, here are some examples of systems. And I said in like big letters, I'm like, the goal here is not for you guys to over engineer your life. The goal is not to go through this resource and try to build a system for every area of your world. That would be crazy. And still, like, I had a couple clients who were like, that's exactly what they tried to do. So this year I've kind of retooled the approach and making sure that they're a little bit better supported in being like, okay, our goal here is just to understand what our options are when we don't know what our system should be. Like if we know we need a budget and we need some sort of routine or system around finances. But we're just like, we don't know what it should be because everybody out here is trying to reinvent the wheel. And then they discover, like, Ynab or they discover Finch, and they're like, oh, man, I just spent all this time setting up these elaborate spreadsheets and, like, here's this app I could have just gotten. So I see this a lot in that context where people are very fixated on this idea of engineering and over engineering. And it's been interesting to watch my clients figure out where putting in the effort and engineering a system or a routine is worth it and sustainable and where it's like, too much. Right. For me, there was a period where having my sort of morning and evening routine written out explicitly and trying to follow it was helpful. But I have just come to this place in my life where maybe it's because I've been doing it so long, it is not helpful to me anymore. And it feels arbitrary to try to over engineer that or to, like, use a routine app or even, like, tick it off every day and track it. Like, at this point, it's. It would be more work than it's worth. And it's. Nobody's going to give me a sticker or a medal, right? Like, I don't get a trophy for, like, nailing my morning routine, you know, every single morning and night, it's still useful. I still have a morning and evening routine, but I'm at a place right now where, like, being more flexible about it and, like, doing some of the things some of the time, you know, allowing myself to go off script and switch it up as needed is a lot more adaptive to, like, my personal life circumstances. And so I've. I've really kind of been on a journey of trying to help a lot of my clients figure out where. Where is the Goldilocks zone between putting in effort and building a system in engineering and not putting in effort and not building a system and not over engineering, but just like going with the flow. So it's a really interesting thing. And it. The hard part is once you get something locked in, life is not an Instagram photo. It's not a snapshot. It's gonna change. And the way that it's working for you in one season may be totally different than what you need in another season, which can be frustrating if you've put in a lot of effort. But I think the key thing is to roll with the punches and to recognize that neither is actually superior. It's not better to have an explicit system that's on a list that you tick off or an app that you're using that you're habit tracking. It's not better to just roll by the seat of. They're just different for different circumstances.

A (14:19)

To add to what you just said, I have this friend who's ADHD who was describing to me her cleaning quote unquote routine, which is not a routine at all. She's like, if I just do the thing that's in front of me, then I. Then I do the next thing, and then I do the next thing, and then I do the next thing, and then the house is clean. And the moment I try and write it out or check it off a list or. Or systemize it in some way, then I do nothing. Then I do absolutely nothing. And so that Goldilocks zone you're describing is really key. And so back to the idea of starting with a really basic routine and then building on it. The opportunity, and this is the work that we do as coaches. The opportunity here is not to build the perfect routine, but to start to figure out what works for you. So for me and my kitchen, as I said earlier, I've learned what works for me is to let go of the expectation of a clean kitchen. The only time my kitchen is perfectly clean is if I'm having company. And that's because my kitchen is a really cute room. And I want it to be clean. I want it to look nice. I want to make it special for my friends coming over. So there's positive motivation there, not negative of motivation of I should. But otherwise, it's just always there are a few dishes, I do a few dishes. I may not do all of the dishes. I have limited counter space, so I can't always do all of the dishes because there's not always room for all of the dishes to lay out and dry, or there's not always time for me to stand at the sink for 20 or 30 minutes to wash every single dish. But I keep it Moving. And that's good enough for me. And it keeps things to a dull enough roar that when I do have that moment that I do want to put in the extra effort to have a fully clean kitchen, it's not such an onerous task. So when thinking about routines, the opportunity here really is curiosity. Right. Start with the thing you're already doing. What do you want to build on it, and why? And then what's working and what's not working. Where do you need actual structure? And where is it okay to sort of. I hate to use the word vibes, because vibe coding has become this sort of toxic language and toxic thing happening in capitalism right now. But where can you just kind of go with the flow? For me, somewhere I've learned to do that pretty well is with relationships. And I have a lot of clients who want to build routine and structure around maintaining relationships. For me, I've gotten to a place where if somebody's on my mind, I just shoot them a text. I just shoot them a text or get in touch with them in some way. Something comes to mind where it's like, oh, I haven't had one on one time with this person in quite a while. I then set an intention to make that plan, but I don't complicate it more than that. And doing it that way works well enough for me. But I also want to say that there's a lot of work that went into that being true. Right. Why do my clients need to build routines around relationships? Well, in part because of how they can get in their own way because of adhd. Oh, I haven't texted this person in so long. Or I didn't reply to their text. And so that guilt and shame that can then build up that wall of awful around the task itself, I don't struggle with that anymore. I didn't answer your text three weeks ago. You're my friend. You, you've met me. You know that this is par for the course for me, and you know that if you actually need my attention in some meaningful way, you can ask for it. But if we're just conversing and I drop the ball on the conversation, that's okay. That's okay. And I'm not going to let guilt and shame get in my way. And so I don't need routine and structure to help me reengage. Like, I, I, I just sort of naturally find my, my moments, my pathways to make that happen. But routine and structure along the way and unpacking some of the stuff that gets in the way help me get there.

B (18:43)

Yeah. And something you said there about like your client is so important because it, it is about self awareness. Like I think where a lot of people get stuck in, in properly leveraging routine is not accounting for oppositionality. Right. Like our own oppositionality and like knowing how to work with it. Right. Personally, I love systems, I love engineering, I love routine. That's just something that I genuinely enjoy. So I do a lot of that for myself and like when clients are into it, I love to talk with them about it. But like there are some clients who like, there is just no, that's just like a big no go zone and that's, I respect that. What I think counts as over engineering is creating a system for yourself that is going to require like your nervous system to engage with it in a way that doesn't feel, that always feels effortful. Like if you're someone who has higher oppositionality. I think the challenge is to figure out how to create something that, that flows, that doesn't feel like it's exhaustive just to engage with it. Right. Because some, for some people, they just, they can't tell themselves what to do. Right. I'm trying to think of an example of this. Like for me, what tends to get me around oppositionality is feel is like choice and variety and fun and keeping myself on my toes. So like I, I don't want to call it over engineering, but I have to like massively engineer my relationship to meal prepping. I've, I've tried and seen all these different like meal prepping systems and, and the thing that ultimately works for me is actually to switch up how I meal prep like almost every week. Sometimes I can get two, maybe three weeks out of the same way of doing it at a time. But basically I have like a meta system which is whenever I feel like I'm struggling to just like manage groceries and manage meals, I like sit down and go like, okay, what would feel fun? What would feel like, where's my energy at? What am I in the mood for? Do I want to cook? Do I want to avoid cooking? Like, what do I need out of a sort of meal planning system this week? Sometimes it's been something really elaborate. Like I'll go, you know what, I'm going to have a theme week or a theme month and the theme is soup. I'm going to look up new soup recipes, I'm going to try to make as many soups as I can. And then it feels like a little challenge to myself. So then I get engagement Other. Other weeks it's like, okay, I don't even feel like I understand how to plan meals. I need to like keep this as simple as possible and just like use some ingredients in the cupboard. This night I'll do this, but this night I'm just gonna fly by the seat of my pants. Like I'm gonna under plan because that's what I'm feeling. But it's. The system is essentially checking in with my capacity and being like, what do I want this to look like this week? I rebuild it sometimes every week. But that is the best way for me to be consistent with feeding myself and the people in my family. Because my willingness to engage with a formal system or routine really waxes and wanes when it comes to food. Some weeks I got it. I have a little meal planning thing that goes on my fridge and I'll happily fill it out and I'll refer to it and I'll follow it. And I love that. And then other weeks I hate it. And I'm like, absolutely not. And I just can't even. So I think understanding your relationship to oppositionality is a really key thing because like you said for your client, they were self aware enough to know. Like, the thing is I actually can't write this down. And that's what I hate Asher about like generalized ADHD advice. And that's one of the reasons I think coaching is so, so endlessly valuable. Because if you go on TikTok or you read a book or you read an article, they're always going to give you the same generic advice. And that advice is going to be something about like, write it down, have a routine, follow some steps. And like that advice will work for some people some of the time about some things, but it's gonna be really disempowering for a person like your client, for whom writing it down actually ruins it. And they could have done it, but they're trying to force it to do. They're trying to force themselves to do it, quote unquote, the right way. Because they like, you know, saw some TikTok where some influencer said, well, this is the way to do it. I always try to be really careful with the content that I make to like always give a disclaimer and be like, this is what's working for me or this is what has worked for some of my clients. This might not be right for everyone because there's just. No, there is never a right way with ADHD about anything forever. It's just, it's just what Works for you right now, Dusty.

A (23:04)

I really love that example of this flexible system that is really retooling the system based on capacity, based on oppositionality, based on bandwidth, energy towards this particular topic. I also want to note that there's probably an element of novelty in there that is helpful. I had a client years ago who was a special educator, and we spent a good long while in our coaching over a period of a couple of years, coming back to this topic, kind of beating our heads against the wall about finding the system. And the breakthrough moment was realizing that changing up the system is the system. Because the way that this client's academic year works, because she's not a traditional teacher, she's a special educator and a special educator at the high school level. So she's involved with things like testing for college. So SAT ACT and accommodations for that parent teacher conference season has an impact. Who her kids are any given semester and what their needs are and where they're struggling has an impact. Impact. So it's this always variable schedule. And we kind of figured out that the system was whatever it needed to be in the moment. So she was often switching tools, switching apps, rebuilding. Sometimes it was an app, sometimes it was a spreadsheet, sometimes it was this, sometimes it was that. But that process itself was really helpful to helping her orient to the moment. And the breakthrough realization for her is the element of novelty was actually supremely helpful in her ability to engage with that system. So the idea of kind of going back to last year's system for this year's season wasn't a helpful concept for her. Looking for the thing that was gonna work in the here and now and spending the time to build that. Hugely helpful for her.

B (25:10)

Yeah. And I just wanna add, like, when I've talked to people about this, sometimes I've had like a bit of pushback either online from clients being like, okay, but the system that you're describing, like what I talk about with meal prepping sounds really exhausting. I can barely get through my day. How can I do that for everything? And so I want to really clarify that, like, for me, like, food is hard. It's like one of the hard. It's like a boss level thing. So it's not that I do this process with like every area of my life. Like, there's lots of routines and systems I have where, like, they. It does just stay the same for a long time. And I don't need to retool it, I don't need to think about it because it just. It's a more like. That's the thing. It's important to remember, too, with all or nothing thinking, like, we're not saying that everything has to be like this. It's about looking at which areas of your life you need. And I think we started this episode talking about, like, really, for me, it comes down to how do you. How do you be, do and have the things that you want to be, do and have without massively increasing your cognitive load? Like, where are the opportunities in the routines that exist to get more value without more effort? Right. That's where we started. And so in any areas, in any routines, whether they're formal, whether they're engineered, whether they're, like, casual and just kind of grassroots, so to speak, I think there's always an opportunity to be like, okay, what are the things that would make me feel like I'm showing up for myself as the person I want to be? Yes. I would love if I could sit down and practice the guitar for an hour a day. I cannot do that. And even when I've had the time and the capacity, I haven't been able to do that because that's just not. There's different challenges for me. But if I put my guitar in the kitchen and I'm standing there cooking, yeah, I can, like, noodle for five minutes at a time. Or, like, sometimes what I'll do is I'll put my violin here on the desk, and between clients, I'll just pick it up and, like, run a scale really quickly because, like, frankly, my scales are a little weak. Like, I need. I could be a bit more precise, but I'll never. In all the years I've been like, I should really develop, like, a violin practice. I never do. But in between clients, for a couple minutes at a time, I can be like. And if I do that, you know, intermittently over the years, guess what? I'm improving. And I get the fun, the value of it, but I get to see myself progress without putting myself under a whole lot of stress, you know, when I don't really have the capacity. And I like that idea. Right? Like, it doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be something.

A (27:38)

Ooh, dusty. I think that's a really salient point to end on. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be something. So listeners, opportunities from this episode is, what are you already doing and what might you tack onto it? Or where do you have a few minutes here or there that you could find some of that be. Do have value? Where can you distinguish between what does need a formal routine? Where do I benefit from some structure vs where can I let it be more organic? Vs where might novelty help? Where might changing it up be part of the routine for me?

B (28:24)

Yeah.

A (28:24)

So until next week, I'm Ash and I'm Dusty, and this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening.