A (4:31)

Dusty, before we dive in here, I. I think it's really important to say that I think one opportunity here, when, when you're making this distinction between where and when can I show up authentically versus where and when do I want to adapt is an element of choice. You said a moment ago, this isn't about masking, and it's not. But I think part of that distinction means being a choice. I have certainly coached clients through job or career or circumstance or relationship changes where they've realized that they can't show up in a way that works for them. So that's a valid conclusion to come to as you're starting to evaluate how, how and where do I want to show up differently or where it would benefit me to show up differently. It's equally valid to look at a situation and say I can't show up in the way that I'm being asked to hear or it's harmful for me to show up in the way that I'm being asked to hear and therefore this may not be a workable situation, relationship, job, whatever for me.

B (5:50)

Yeah, thanks for saying that, Ash. And I do really want to create a distinction here that like, I'm aware that like masking is harmful. It is not sustainable, right. It's a problem for autistic people and it means that they are working outside their capacity. And that's different than like the kind of flexible social approach that, that I might take as a person who just has adhd, right. Because there is that capacity, right. I might not like it. I might not like to be really stuffy around my in laws, for example, and I might find that tiring if I had to do it for a straight week on a cruise with them or something. But I could do it. Whereas like with masking, my understanding is, you know, we're talking about something that is coming at, at a cost that's, that's too high, right. Especially over time and can, can lead to burnout. So that I want to be really clear that like, for listeners that like there is a difference between these two things, right. And I can't tell you which one you're doing, right? Only, you know, but that's the thing about masking too, right? Is with autistic people, every, every autistic person is different. But I know that for some autistic people, like there is just like a, I can't. There are some autistic people who like, yeah, straight up, they just can't like they're going to show up in any kind of space that they're in the way that they're going to show up because that is like at the limit of what they can do. Obviously again, not all autistic people and as a culture, when we talk about disability inclusion and we look at how people show up, whether it's in the workplace or in a friend group, I think we can make space for that and go like, okay, this person isn't trying to be any certain way. That's how they are. And so we're going to adapt our understanding of their responses. And that's for some autistic people, like you said, there's just A hard stop, right? And then for others, there is more of a flexible, nuanced space where, like, maybe they have a greater social capacity. That's something I don't know a lot about. So I don't want to speak to it again. Like, I don't want to put any ideas out there that might unintentionally be harmful because I am not autistic. So I'm speaking here really specifically about, like, my understanding of the way that ADHD impacts communication and social, like, social information integration and what. And how we adapt our approaches. Because for me, at least as a person with adhd, I might not like it, but I have the capacity to do it. Like, it doesn't harm me in a. In an irreparable way. I mean, I don't have to. I don't necessarily love it, but I can do it. Right.

A (8:22)

Dusty, when. When I see this challenge with my clients, and this is so often the case for any challenge with adhd, the first barrier, the first challenge we're dealing with here is just awareness. Awareness of how you're showing up, awareness of what is appropriate, where. Awareness of how you're being perceived by others. I had this client describe a moment where she found out that she was being perceived much differently than she realized by someone she was in grad school with. This person just reamed her out, out of what felt like nowhere to her. And she described the experience as the fantasy bubble being burst. And I think many of us with ADHD can relate to that experience where you think you're being perceived one way, where you think you're. You're being appropriate or you're being okay. And then all of a sudden, you sometimes very harshly are told, no, this is not okay. You are not okay in this situation. And so awareness can be such a challenge for those of us with adhd. Really, really sort of tuning into and paying attention to ourselves, how we're showing up others, how they're receiving us. And so that's kind of the first opportunity here is to be aware. And you were describing before we started to record this model that someone else came up with about buckets of intimacy. That could be an interesting framework for how to start to think about or build awareness in your social relationships. So do you want to say a little bit about that?

B (10:10)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a good time to say it, because the person I was talking about was Carolyn McGuire. She's known for a book she wrote called why Will no One Play With Me? Which is about soft skill skills and Socio Emotional Learning for kids and, like, how parents can coach their kids to have greater social awareness. But the book was so popular that people kept asking her, like, when are you going to write one of these for, like, adults? Like, I need one of these for me, right? And so she's just written this book, and I think it's coming out in April, and it's about, like, neurodivergent friendship skills for adults. But I saw her give a talk online during the pandemic at the Chad conference. And I. I'm gonna have to ask her about this talk because I've never seen this framework anywhere else. And I found it, personally, really useful. Like, it was like a aha moment for me. And what Carolyn did was she was talking about this concept of intimacy buckets, and she kind of had a visual that was like a bullseye, right? And so, like, the most intimate intimacy bucket is, like, people that you are the most intimate with, you're able to be vulnerable. They know all your, you know, bumps and bruises and little, you know, dirty secrets. And she said, you know, most adults in their life only have, like, one, maybe between, like, one and three, like, really good, like, best friends that they're able to be fully vulnerable and intimate with. And then from there, like, the intimacy buckets kind of went outwards like a bullseye, where she was talking about how intimate you want to be with people that you have different types of relationships with. So, like, close friends, work colleagues who are also friends, work colleagues who are just. You're just friendly with at work. You know, the neighbor, your babysitter, the person you're talking to in a grocery store lineup, or, like, the server that you always see at your local restaurant. And I had never thought about it like that, but. But it kind of was this big aha moment for me because I was like, oh, my God. Other people have these rules. Like, other people aren't just flying by the seat of their pants. They're, like, assessing me on, you know, intimacy buckets like this. And of course, again, not everyone, like, I feel like this is why neurodivergent birds of a feather flock together. Like, it's. That's why, like, we ADHD people, like, find each other, because we're the. We're like, yes, we. I can just be, you know, super authentic with you. But she talked about, you know, types of relationships and types of intimacy. So sharing information that's personal and a bit traumatic. Like, I'm going through divorce. My pet just died. Sharing information that still private and personal. Personal that some people may consider too personal. Like, I have a boil on my back that I need to get lanced at the doctor, right? So like medical information, life information. And she was like, how do you know? Because those are all considered kind of intimate topics. And so she was saying like, how do you know how intimate you are with someone, what intimacy bucket someone is in? And how do you, how do you move from one intimacy bucket to another? Like, if I had have a really good rapport with the cashier at my local grocery store and we're like joking and talking all the time. Just because we are joking and talking all the time, that doesn't mean that it's appropriate for me to share with her that I've got like a boil on my back that needs to be lance or that I'm going through a divorce. Right. Other people have rules. They have like social rules around like what's appropriate to be shared with, what type of relationship. And of course, like, everyone is different. These are just, you know, these are broad strokes. But I think just the idea that there were like these kind of like unwritten rules had like never occurred to me because I totally do just fly by the seat of my pants. I'm definitely like an oversharer and like a very authentic person. But I have made people really uncomfortable and I've had a lot of social struggles where I'm like, why doesn't this person want to be my friend? Like, why does this person think I'm weird? You know, I'm, I know that I'm always doing my best coming from like a place of kindness. Like, why am I being received the wrong way? And this was like a piece of the puzzle that I just like didn't have like this idea that like it could be my over sharing and my desire to discuss topics that other people might find inappropriate intimacy wise to discuss with me based on the type of relationship that we had. And it was really, it was a really good piece of information that has helped me to make sense of where I stand with other people. So it's just such a useful framework.

A (14:21)

Dusty, I do think this is such a useful framework because as you said, we with adhd, we naturally tend to be oversharers. It's why when we find each other, we can form bonds of friendship so quickly. Right? Often the, the ADHD people at a party will be the ones off in a corner having some really deep conversation about something because that's, that's our natural way. That's how we tend to be. We just don't have the same filters or rules on board that other people naturally have. So thinking about it this way, putting this model or framework around it is an interesting way to build awareness and to start to distinguish where might I want to show up differently. I kind of want to pivot here, Dusty, because something you said earlier is how do we distinguish between when to advocate for yourself and when to adapt?

B (15:21)

Well, this is kind of where I wanted to go with it as well, is like, I think this approach is especially useful when we're talking about stuff like professional development or the workplace because, you know, between friends or between romantic relationships, I think you have a lot more discretion and a lot more control over like, setting your life up in a way that works for you. But all of us live under capitalism. We all got to pay our bills and we don't really have as much control when it comes to like, who we work for or having a job. And this is where I think it really impacts us. Like, I think we don't talk enough about the like, lost cost. What's the, what's the word? I'm talking about where like there's wage loss, like not sunk cost. But I think we don't talk enough about the sort of collective economic impact of neurodivergence in the workplace because we know that people with ADHD tend to suffer higher rates of job loss, unemployment, underemployment. We know that to be especially true as well of autistic people. Like, I think it's like something like only like 27% of autistic people are like, employed full time or whatever. And we can point to a lot of things that cause people with ADHD to struggle in the workplace. But like, we're not talking about the fact that part of this does come down to social skills and not being liked and like not getting promotions or being like, put on action plans or like being passed over or not being hired because you're like, coming off the wrong way and you're being perceived like that people don't like you, basically. Right. Or that people find you obnoxious or annoying or too much. And, and like, if I'm running a workplace and there's somebody who I can't trust to show up appropriately, I can't put that person in a position of authority over others or necessarily, like, I may not want to entrench them further in my organization. And I'm speaking the royal eye here. I'm not saying me personally, I love to promote a weirdo, but like, how much of the job loss and the underemployment do we see isn't just a result of like people struggling to get to work on time and people struggling to finish their work, but people struggling to show up in a way that employers can recognize as valuable and desirable.

A (17:29)

Dusty, I'm going to jump in here again. I know I've already said this once in this episode, but I think it's really important to say it again that I think an element of choice here is really important to bring into this mix. I have had so many clients who have had interpersonal challenges in the workplace where advocacy simply wasn't an option. For one, it wasn't going to be well received. The disconnect between them and their employer, their supervisor, their co worker, whatever, was simply too big and. Or there wasn't a willingness on the part of the other person to come to the table in good faith to try and find that happy middle ground. So all of this to say that as neurodivergent people, there are simply going to be situations that are untenable for us and that that is okay. That is okay. It is okay to walk away from a situation in pursuit of something that is better suited to who you are, that allows you to show up in ways that feel okay to you. And the reason I wanted to make sure to say this again right here is because we are not always the problem. Sometimes it is someone else that is just unwilling to try to understand us, who almost willfully misunderstands us and will not come to the table in good faith to try and have a different experience there. And that's not our stuff, that's their stuff. But it is something that as a neurodivergent person you are going to run into in your life at some point. I think every one of my clients has been through something like this. Be it at work, be it in a family, be it in a relationship, be it in a friendship where they are being misunderstood despite their best good faith efforts to have a different experience there. You can't make someone else come to the table in good faith.

B (19:35)

Well, this is exactly what I'm saying, right? Kind of like two, two things at once is on the one hand, like, yeah, there's gonna be people you can't who are not gonna understand you. And that's exactly why we need to learn socio emotional skills and like why we need to learn like what the hidden rules are because it is gonna cost us, right? Like we're gonna be the ones that suffer the, you know, the job loss or the like Being passed over for the promotion in the workplace or the person, like, breaking up with you or the friend being mad at you, you're not included in the friend group trip. And, like, you don't know why. Like, we're going to pay the cost. So we need to understand that. And it would be great, you know, if we could advocate and create a more just world in all those circumstances. But like you said, we can't. But I'm going to gently push back on that idea of, like, that there's always choice here when we're talking about the economic piece, though, because I do think that when we're talking about workplace soft skills, that people, neurodivergent people, are at a, at a disadvantage. Where I don't. It's both at once. Because, like, I want to hold on to the hope that, like, any person that I coach or any neurodivergent person could find a better situation for themselves. Like, if they're working in an environment where they feel misunderstood, where it's exhausting for them to have to, like, internalize and understand and like, double check that they're following all the, like, unspoken rules and that they can't show up as themselves, that's terrible and crappy. And I, I want to believe that there's like, a peg for every hole and that there are workplaces out there, no matter what profession you're in, where you're going to find your crew and you're going to find bosses that are like me or like you, where we are going to be creating just, like, more neurodivergent type of work environments. Like, I want to believe that's true, but at the same time, I have to acknowledge that, like, we're talking about a group of people, like a population of people who, who are higher on the, like, poverty scale, who are suffering from more, like, unemployment. And so, like, sometimes we are in situations where, like, we need this job and we need to keep doing this job or we can't pay our rent. And that means if you're not going to be understood, like, you got to do the adapting, which is like, so crappy and so unfair. So it's like kind of both at once. Like, I don't want to tell people, like, oh, you live under capitalism, you better learn how to get along with people. But I also don't want to tell people, like, yeah, you have choices. Like, if you're not being understood, just, like, go somewhere else. Because it's not always that easy in the professional sense. I think, you know, this is where this topic really diverges. Because how we cope with this in our personal relationships, which we do have again, not I guess maybe not full choice but like where we have a lot more choice over. I think it's, it can be different than, than the workplace, especially depending on your profession. Right. Like I have some clients who work in tech, I have some clients who work like in video games. And that's really, really rapidly changing because of like AI and stuff. Both tech games are changing due to the advent of AI journalism. Same thing. So depending on your industry, you may have more or less wiggle room to find a different situation that's going to suit you. Which doesn't mean that you don't have choice. There's always still choices beyond that. Right. You could, you could run away and ride the rails. You could start your own business. I don't, but like those things are also not easy. So I think this, this topic kind of diverges here.

A (23:05)

Dusty, I appreciate you jumping in with that point because you're right, it's not necessarily possible for everyone to make a change right now. And no workplace is perfect. No workplace is going to be just the right thing for your neurodivergence. And by the way, that includes self employment as we both know. And so you're right, we kind of have this fork in the road talking about what does advocacy look like? What does adaptation look like? Look like?

B (23:36)

Yeah, I think this is a good like introduction of this concept and then talking about it. I. Because we started off talking about a client of mine who is having a professional struggle where she was working really hard, trying really hard in her workplace, really wanted to put her best foot forward and got totally blindsided by being fired. Not for her work. Literally the boss was like your work is great. But like for her personality and for her communication style which was perceived as like aggressive and anti authoritarian. Whereas where she was coming from was trying to be like specific and careful and show that she was like a go getter. So like you know, it's. And I think we've all had these experiences of just being so misunderstood and it's absolutely heartbreaking when you are trying so hard and all you want to do is show that you're like that you want to do your best and then the harder you try, the more you're misunderstood and then just this version of you is reflected back at you. That's so not your own experience. It can be really jarring. So that's what got me thinking about this was like how do we navigate social challenges in the workplace. And, like, how do we know when to advocate for ourselves as neurodivergent people? Which is, like, covered under the ada. Like, we talk about accommodations. Accommodations aren't just, hey, let this person, like, record this meeting so they can play it back later. Like, sometimes I. Basically what I'm getting at is, like, I think we need to work towards a world where, like, workplace accommodations are more normally recognized as helping to accommodate some of these real challenges that, like, not. I don't want to say real. No. Like, as if the other ones aren't real. Like, to accommodate some of these, like, more nuanced challenges that we face in the neurotypical world as neurodivergent people. So there's that. Right? And then also, like, where do we. How do we protect ourselves when it's not a safe situation? How do we protect ourselves and, like, learn skills that we need to know to get along and to be perceived correctly and accurately when we won't be accommodated? Like, how do we start to assess what kind of situation we're in? How do we bring skills to the table to work with people who are. Who aren't going to be our type of people and aren't going to understand us so that we can, like, look out for ourselves and not suffer the consequences of, you know, unfairly being perceived the wrong way?

A (25:57)

Dusty, such great questions that you're asking, and unfortunately we are out of time for today, but everything you just said, the questions that you left us with, is right where we're going to pick up next week for a part two on this topic.

B (26:13)

Wonderful.

A (26:14)

So, listeners, until next week, I'm Ash. And I'm Dusty, and this was the Translating ADHD podcast. Thanks for listening, Sam.