ATA King for a Day Part 2 with Jason Barnett | Trap Talk E154

Summary

Trap Talk From The Back Fence

Episode: ATA King for a Day Part 2 with Jason Barnett | Trap Talk E154

Date: December 12, 2025

Hosts: Zach Nannini & Richard Marshall Jr.

Guest: Jason Barnett (Vice President, Central Zone, ATA Executive Committee)

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Brief Overview

This episode features Jason Barnett, Vice President of the Central Zone and Executive Committee (EC) member of the Amateur Trapshooting Association (ATA). Zach, Ricky, and Jason dive into the organizational, financial, and competitive aspects of the ATA, examining topics such as prize money, communication and marketing, championship shoot-offs, event structure, and recognition of athletes. The hosts and Jason candidly discuss member feedback, challenges, and possible improvements—sprinkling in stories, industry anecdotes, and lighthearted banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Money in Trapshooting & Payout Structures

• [02:44] Jason notes that the topic of prize money "comes up at every meeting." He reminisces about a time when “every place, every shoot we went to, there was definite money to be won…. There was more shooters. Now, twice the shooters, half the money.”
• [05:53] Jason and the hosts discuss attempts to add money to purses, referencing the Martins’ $100,000 donation to the Grand American Handicap and its limited long-term attendance impact.
• [07:46] Ricky floats ideas for a mandatory added money event, e.g., raising entry fees with a fixed purse payout from each, but Jason clarifies such structures haven’t been formally tried.
• [09:44] Zach emphasizes the crucial role of marketing: “If you just do trophies or you just do money… it’s not going to happen. You’ve got to … educate the people on what it is that’s happening and get them really excited about it.”
• [13:04] The group agrees that shooter engagement and repeated communication are key—one-time efforts rarely suffice.

2. Communication, Marketing & Membership Engagement

• [13:16] The hosts ask about EC strategies for updating the membership. Jason details the efforts of the communication committee but stresses that with diverse channels (mail, digital, social media), “There’s not a one-size-fits-all communication.”
• [16:09] John (host) urges more regular, transparent communication: “There should just be a regular clip coming out on all those different media channels.”
• [16:31] Jason reiterates that much is being done behind the scenes and suggests EC conversations would be beneficial to make visible to members.

3. Volunteerism and the EC Experience

• [18:35] Jason shares his journey from Indiana state delegate to a five-year EC rotation (and likely ATA president in 2027): “You’re basically on the executive committee for five years, six if you count your ex officio year.”
• [19:44] The hosts thank Jason and EC volunteers for their efforts amidst constant criticism and limited appreciation.

4. Option Play, Handicap System, and Mandatory Reductions

• [20:34] Discussion around participation in options (e.g., Lewis and Jackpot purses): in the main Grand American Handicap, about 1,000 played Lewis (of 1,771 entries), indicating a sizable but incomplete buy-in.
• [21:47] The “27-yard line debate”—should only those shooting from the max handicap be eligible for major titles and bonus money?
  • Both hosts and Jason firmly oppose this idea, favoring the existing system’s inclusivity:

    "If a shooter gets, you know, at the 22 and he has the high score and he beats everybody... he won it." – Zach [22:52]

• [23:42] Ricky advocates for “mandatory reductions” to help shooters remain competitive if stuck at tougher yardages—a subject that comes up often among ATA members.

5. Event Structure: Carryovers vs. Shoot-Offs

• [48:17] Hosts and Jason explore the pros and cons of event carryovers vs. nightly shoot-offs, especially for doubles and class singles at the Grand.
  • Benefits of shoot-offs: Unique competitive experience for grassroots shooters and memorable encounters facing top-tier athletes.
  • Trade-offs: More shoot-offs require additional manpower, time, and cost (targets, staff overtime).
  • Jason:

    “It's target pricing as well as personnel and employees… you're paying all the people overtime at that point too.” [50:30]

• [59:17] The group proposes potential compromise formats, such as limited shoot-offs (e.g., 50 or 100 birds, then carryover if unresolved) or reserving shoot-offs for "championship week" events only.

6. Recognition & Celebration: Podiums, Ceremonies, and Media

• [39:03] Zach and John highlight the lack of formal celebration for major championship winners at the Grand, suggesting ceremonies, podiums, and big checks akin to other shooting sports.

  “It literally took 30 seconds to do so… but it's very important. And that brought that to my attention.” – Jason [40:09]

• [44:31] Group discusses creating more memorable, media-friendly moments—such as post-victory interviews and live-streamed shoot-offs—to expand excitement and digital reach beyond event attendees.
• [44:53] Jason is open to new ideas, noting he takes “notes” for consideration at the EC.

7. Scheduling of Events & Target Year Debate

• [89:08] The hosts raise a major member concern: ending the official ATA target year on Saturday at the Grand American, thus making the Grand the “season finale.”
• [91:12] Jason: “My personal take is that I think that makes a lot of sense… it's the Super Bowl, it's the end of the World Series, the season is over.”
• [92:32] Change would require amending ATA bylaws—a more complicated, protracted process.

8. Categories, All-American Teams, & Recognition

• [78:19] The question of expanding, limiting, or adjusting categories (e.g., introducing “Super Senior” or changing Lady/Junior Gold parameters) comes up “almost every meeting”; consensus for now is that “we have the perfect amount.”
• [87:15] Jason admits he was initially skeptical of Junior Gold, but the data shows it retains young shooters:

  “I've done a complete 180. I think the junior category is a solid category, but that's my opinion.”

• [81:24; 82:42] Discussion about further honoring All-American team “captains” or first-teamers—possibly incorporating them into opening ceremonies, providing more distinctive recognition (badges, jackets, plaques, more).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Member Feedback & Volunteering

  “Everybody’s got complaints about every way in which they would do it, but yet nobody volunteers.” – Zach [09:44]
  “If you have… your ideas are good, I want to hear your ideas. Everybody on the EC, talk to your delegate, talk to the guys on the EC. Don’t hesitate to share your ideas.” – Jason [103:46]

• On The Power of Marketing

  “If you just do trophies or you just do money… if I build it, they will come. That's not going to happen.” – Zach [10:09]

• On the Handicap System

  “If a shooter gets… at the 22 and he has the high score… He won it.” – Zach [22:52]
  “I personally think there needs to be mandatory reductions.” – Ricky [23:30]

• On Celebration and Recognition

  “When somebody won… it should be a big deal. And it opened my eyes, and I thought, you know what?… That's a great point.” – Jason [39:36-40:09]
  “When you can go back and tell your buddies, ‘I got to stand out with the greatest shooter in the world that one day’… there’s something that you can’t put a dollar figure to.” – Zach [51:19]

• On Innovation & Small Steps

  “You can’t just do one. You can’t try something once and think that is momentum. You gotta, you gotta get momentum.” – Jason [30:40]
  “Little progress is good. Little bites, little things, little traction points.” – Zach [75:40]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:44] – Discussing money in the sport and changing times
• [09:44] – Marketing matters more than simply adding money or prizes
• [13:04] – Communication committee, multiple channels for member engagement
• [20:34] – Option play data and 27-yard line debate
• [23:42] – Discussion on handicap reductions and competitive fairness
• [39:03] – Opening ceremonies, podiums, and the need to celebrate winners
• [48:17] – Shoot-offs vs. carryovers; unique experience for grassroots shooters
• [59:17] – Proposing hybrid shoot-off/carryover formats
• [78:19] – ATA's ongoing discussion about categories and classes
• [81:24] – All-American team recognition and ideas for greater honors
• [89:08] – The end-of-season date debate and possible bylaw changes
• [92:32] – Practicalities and complications in changing the target year

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Wrap-Up: Tone and Takeaways

The tone is candid, constructive, and collaborative, with plenty of humor and mutual respect. Jason is open about what the EC does and does not control, how slow-moving organizational change can be, and the central role that dedicated volunteers play. The hosts celebrate the passion of the trapshooting community and urge members to keep offering constructive suggestions—a recurring theme is the need for better marketing, more overt celebration of champions, and transparent communication.

Key takeaways:

• The ATA is aware of member concerns and continually debates important issues;
• Significant changes (like target year shifts or event overhauls) are complex and may require bylaw amendments;
• Marketing, communication, and member recognition are recurring priorities;
• Innovative ideas are welcomed, but implementation takes time and often requires balancing tradition, cost, and logistics.

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For more details, refer to specific timestamps above or listen to the full episode of Trap Talk From The Back Fence, Episode 154.

Transcript

[A]

J.

[B]

Welcome to season three of Trap Chop.

[A]

Brought to you by Craig off, the choice of champions.

[B]

Hello, Trap Talk Nation. We got to take a quick second. We got to thank our title sponsor, Craig Off. They make a fantastic product. Me and Ricky both use them. What do you think, Rick?

[A]

Listen, folks, like I've said all along, you want to be a champion, buy yourself a Craig Off. Shoot a Craig off, you'll win championship.

[B]

They're time tested. We're shooting tens of thousands of rounds a year from these things every year with no problems. Ricky's got hundreds and hundreds of hundreds with his. It's awesome.

[A]

Listen, if you want to get a Craig Off, John will put my number down below and I can hook you up.

[C]

All right, folks, we have let Joey go to dinner and we have brought in Jason Barnett, who is our vice president of the Central Zone. Right, Jason, that's your official title there. He is on the executive committee. So we are really pleased to have you join us today and take the time. So thank you for that, Jason. We really appreciate it.

[D]

Absolutely. It's my pleasure to be. Good to see you guys.

[C]

And we, you know, we always talk about, you know, obviously the ATA and competition, all those kind of things. And we know that there's this governing body that's helping keeping it running and, you know, making sure everything is happening the way it's supposed to. So this is really cool to kind of get a perspective from that side of the table, if you will. And we just got done talking with Joey Charnigo and we were talking a lot about, yeah, definitely money in the game, which is a big theme of a lot of the comments that we received online. And we were also touched on things like trophies and we went in a bunch of different areas, but because it's such a popular subject, right, the money side of the game and what does that mean and how could there be more money and, oh, there used to be money in the game. And, you know, how do these shoots have money and these shoots don't? So just to kind of go with that a little bit more, we talked a lot about the Grand American being its own thing, right? That's our World Series. That's our Super Bowl. And you probably saw from the comments, as I shared with you, the, you know, the kind of the outline here that, you know, Joey come in and said, well, what if we took, you know, a couple bucks out of the entry fee on the preliminaries and, you know, 10 bucks out of the HAA events and. And put together a purse and Stuff like that. So maybe we could start there and just kind of get your general thoughts on added money or money in the game or ideas that the ATA has kind of been bouncing around. Maybe that's a good place to start.

[D]

Certainly, certainly. Thanks again for having me on here, guys. And that is a topic that I can't recall any meeting that. That hadn't been discussed at.

[C]

Well, that's good news.

[B]

Already they're talking about it, coming up.

[D]

With the cure all answer that the one size fits all answer that we have not been able to do. And I'm not sure that that's possible. You know, and I hear that all the time, and I've seen it. You know, I've shot shot traps since I was in college at Indiana University. And I think I graduated in, we'll say 19 7. Just don't do the math. But, you know, it was a different game back then. Every place, every shoot we went to, there was. There was definite money to. Money to be won. There's no. No doubt about it. And there was more shooters. Now twice the shooters. Half the money is that. Does that math work out? I don't know. I just don't know what the. Where. Where all the money went away. You know, I hear a lot of. A lot of talk. I think the changing world, the changing economy, the changing everything. Opportunities that exist in the world now. In the 80s and 90s, you went to trap shoots. That was your entertainment. That was your main entertainment. I remember going in college, going to Calcuttas in northern Indiana and southern Ohio. You could go to a Calcutta Friday night and then go to a different one on Saturday. See a lot of the same people. Money you want on Friday you gave back to them on Saturday or vice versa. But we just don't have that. At least in Indiana, we don't have that anymore. I know that there's still, you know, especially southern Ohio. There's a little bit in southern Indiana, northern Kentucky. You know, the Calcutta, the game shooters, the social events. There's. I think they're making a little bit of a comeback, to be blunt. I really see and hear a lot about that, which is great. You know, those aren't necessarily ATA targets, but from my point of view, I don't care if it's ATA targets, if it's trap targets, if it's trap league targets, if it's Calcuttas, if it's, you know, memorial shoots or they shoot from the porch or stand on the roof if you're shooting, if you're at a trap club, you're shooting the, the whole sport of trap shooting is, is, is gaining, obviously. Going back to the money thing, you know, how do we just. How do we get more money at the grand. How do we get more money at the state shoots? Are we talking satellite grand? Are we talking the, you know, the Sunday shoot at a cap club?

[C]

Well, it's, it's a big subject, right, Jason?

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you have to break them apart. Right. So I think for this conversation to start with, you know, you being on the EC and, and overseeing obviously all of it, but if we just focus on the Grand American, because you said something that kind of piqued my interest. You said twice as many shooters, half as much money. Are you saying that we have bigger attendance now, but there's less money?

[B]

Is.

[C]

Was that what you were saying on that point? I'm just curious. Less shooters at the Grand American than we used to. Right.

[D]

100%.

[C]

Okay. So I. Okay. I just want to make sure I understood that correctly and so that people listening understood it correctly because, yeah, if you. More shooters should equal more money in the game. So is the problem or is one of the challenges for the ATA when they look at the Grand American, is it turnout? Is that why the money is not there? Like you want it to be? Like if, you know, if there was more growth there, there would just naturally be more money?

[D]

I think that, that that's part of it for sure. If there's, if there's less people, there's. That are. And especially there's a lot less people that are playing options. There's no doubt about that. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, that's a big part of it. Yeah, that's a big part of it.

[A]

Well, I just ran the numbers on there, Jason, just for the Grand American Handicap we were talking about, and there was like a thousand people that played the Lewis and the Jackpot purse, which I call the Great Eastern, which was, you know, invented by Aidan Kaufman, you know, from Great Eastern gun Club. The six way there was like 300 and some. So there's 700 people that aren't playing that big purse, you know, but yeah, I think if we just look at the grand. I mean, I've been to 30. This year will be 37 or 38 grands, I think. Yeah, I mean, a long time.

[B]

More than I've been alive.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. A lot more than Zachary. But I think, you know, in going back to what Joey was talking about is maybe adding a little money. And I know the ATA has set the rules, no compulsory options. I do know that that has been in there. But you could do a deal where it's like, okay, instead of. It's $50, a hundred. This event is $75, with $25 of that coming back out. And maybe 20 or $15 goes to the champ through 10th place. And then the other $10 goes into classes or what. You know what I mean?

[B]

Or categories or whatever it might.

[D]

Category.

[C]

You guys ever toss that around, Jason, like, that type of structure? Have you guys ever tossed that one in the meetings?

[D]

Not that specific structure, but we certainly have. And. And you guys are very well aware that even the years when. When the Martins added their money to the. I think that was because it wasn't. That was a hundred thousand. That went into 100,000.

[A]

To the handicap. Yep.

[D]

To the handicap. That's right.

[A]

It was just the handicap. Yep.

[C]

And there.

[D]

And they also did one year, they did something with the Lewis. I think if I did, then they.

[A]

Changed it and did Lewis stuff and. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. And that was several years ago. Don't we. I mean, I was probably. Did it.

[C]

Did it move the needle, Jason?

[D]

Did it move the needle from art. From the numbers I get from the ata? It had no impact on attendance whatsoever.

[C]

Okay. I don't think we can blame the money on this one. Okay.

[A]

No, I will say this. John.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not gonna. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I will say this is. I. This is just my opinion. I. Bill gave that money away. Bill. Leanne. And it was basically, I think, not marketed the correct way. And I think with today's stuff, and we've proven it with the Nevada State shoot, and I just kind of ran the numbers for 25 and Nevada State shoot, if it was in the 25 target year, I think Nevada State shoot would have been the fourth largest state shoot in the country. I mean, it beat Iowa. It. You know, it beat Kentucky, some big shoots. But the reason why is everything given away type of stuff.

[B]

Well, Jason, I think I want to agree with you, but. Yeah, I want to agree with you on something, because we. I was on the board at Missouri, so I've been on a board before and worked on growing a shoot. And one. It's a thankless job. So, first of all, thank you for your service.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because everybody's got complaints about every way in which they would do it, but yet nobody volunteers. Nobody jumps into those positions, and nobody. Nobody does that. So, first of all, thank you for coming.

[C]

They got a lot of ideas. Yeah, a lot of ideas.

[B]

Everybody's got ideas. Everybody. If they walked in the ATA would be fixed and there would be money flowing in. Streets of gold and it would all be paved. I've heard it all.

[C]

We get that in Nevada a lot. You know what you guys should do.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So. So, first of all, thank you for taking. Being the lightning rod and taking the hits from everyone and still being a gracious guy and doing the work. Second of all, I was on that board at mta, and it was a great board, a great group of guys. And Missouri throws one of the largest shoots in the country. Back at the 75th year, we decided to invest approximately $50,000 from our surplus account into dinners and better trophies and all of this other stuff that we did. And it was a big number of money, a big. It was like 10% of the total account to blow up the 75th shoot. Where I think there was lost traction is where I feel is there was people like. And this was. We did free dinners every night. There was people that showed up at the shoot and didn't even know they had free dinners every night. So it was one of those things where, you know, with this. With the shooter, I think, you know, how far in advance do you have to know something's happening? That's first of all. Second of all, how many times you have to ping it into their brain before it becomes like, you know, you watch the TV and every other commercial is a Coca Cola commercial or whatever, right? Like, how many times do you see that commercial before you're like, I gotta have a Coke, right? So I feel that if you just do trophies or you just do money, or you just do any one of these things, and you just put it out there and say, if I build it, they will come. That's not going to happen. You've gotta. Not only start with some momentum and give some things, but then you have to educate the people on what it is that's happening and how it's going and start to get them really excited about it. Because where my proudest moment of doing this is, I've had a lot of people come to me and say, zach, I've had my gun in the case for 20 years. And we started listening, and we started remembering all the fun we used to have. We started remembering the Calcuttas. We started remembering the stuff and the memories all washed in and. And we wanted to get our gun back out. And now we're shooting, and now we're going to the grand this year. We're going to the state shoot this year. And like, anybody that shot the sport that loves it in their core like we do. You go away and you start thinking about it and you're like, man, I want to go back. I mean, everybody that quits quits because of financial reasons or because of life. And then they come back as soon as they get their stuff together enough that they can shoot the game. I mean, I haven't found anybody that doesn't want to come back and shoot that used to.

[A]

That's great.

[D]

That's a great. Zach. That's a fantastic point. And you're right. People that. And they, they come and go, but a lot of times, you know, constantly we'll run into people that, that remembered me 10 years ago. Right. Being active at the Indiana state shoot and. 10 years. I haven't seen him in 10 years, but I've been. Been at every Indiana state shoot for 10 years. And then they showed back up. So it. You're absolutely right. Marketing is key.

[C]

The marketing thing, that's what I was going to go back to too. So, you know, Rick said it and Zach said it really perfectly, is when we have a hook that's only part one, it's only half the coin.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like now we have to get out there and talk about it. So just to segue really quick, how does, you know, the EC think about communication to the base? And maybe this is just something I'm missing, but I'm pretty plugged in on, on, you know, the communication side of things. It is there a. Just a kind of a standard that the EC likes to have, like, hey, we should be talking to the membership base about all the things we're doing on this clip or on. On this schedule or, you know, the executive director should be out there once a month. Do you guys ever talk about that? And this is a small segue away from marketing, but I'm just thinking about communication in general. Does that ever come up in the meetings where you're like, hey, we probably should be telling the membership base all year what we're doing so that when we get to the grand. It's not a. Oh, we need to tell.

[A]

Surprise.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Our surprise. Yeah, yeah. Does any of that ever come up?

[D]

It does, absolutely. And as part of our. We have a communications committee that we. Every meeting we touch base on the status of that committee and what we can do. And it's tough. And just to go back to Zach's comment as far as getting that information out there, there's not, there's not a one size fits all communication. Is. Is Facebook a fantastic tool? Absolutely. Is everybody on it? No. Am I on it? No. Is the website. You know, we try to make, get as much information out to the website as possible, but at the same time it's, it's, it's a balancing act because you don't want to put too much out there. Then people stop looking at it programs. You know, that's something that I think and I know for a fact that I don't know where you guys stand on that, on your various states and different organizations you're involved with. But I know some states are not even sending out programs anymore just because, yeah, they're going digital, trying to save, going online. There's, you know, there's various trap shooting websites, forum type, type deals and that's, you could, you could spend a waste an hour, easy. It's just looking for something on there. Then you, then you go down the rabbit hole and you're clicking on something, you're not even on the same topic that you were looking for or so.

[C]

So I think, I think we can acknowledge that there's definitely some different channels.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

But this is the ata. They have to hit all the channels. They have to do the email newsletter, they have to have the website, they have to send out the program. That's fine. Some of the states are choosing not to mail the program because they want that $5,000 to buy trophies. Okay, that makes sense. That's not the problem of the ata. The ATA is, you know, the organization that doesn't have that issue. So like, yeah, you're going to have to hit all the channels for sure. But I just think that from a regular communication standpoint that there should just be a regular clip coming out on all of those different media channels because you have, you have a committee that's running communications, you have the ata, the head of marketing, you have all these things.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I just think that the ATA is probably doing more stuff than we know. You know, that's the disconnect. Right. And I think we want the membership base to feel like the ATA is alive. It's making good decisions. Just this conversation we're having right now, Jason, about how does the EC think about these things. Are you guys talking about added money?

[A]

Sure.

[C]

There might be a lot of people out there going, wow, I'm just happy to hear that the EC is having these conversations. Right. They just want to know that someone's behind the scenes working on it. On your volunteer job.

[B]

Yeah. And make sure you put some more hours in, Jason. And I mean, yeah. Value for our free money here, you know, Rick, when you're riding around your air conditioning and your nice can am and I'm walking, I'm thinking to myself, where do I get one of these things?

[A]

At Big red motorsports, that's where you get one. George or Jason Lee, they'll take care of you, Zach.

[B]

I mean, I need one. I'm tired of riding on the back of that cooler. I want to sit inside that cab and roll around in style. I mean, my face is on the back, but help me out.

[A]

Listen, I'm going to move your face to the bumper is where it's going to get moved for the new one, okay? All you need is a little quiche and we can take care of you. But listen, Big RedMotorsports.com thanks Jason and George Lee and big red motorsports for all the support. They'll take care of you folks. And it's free delivery.

[B]

Hey, folks, we really want to thank Remington for supporting the show. Since day one. I've been shooting the STS ounces and eighth light eights for singles and doubles and the Nitro 27 from the 27 yard line. Ounce and eight, seven and a half. They make a great product. You should give them a try. And as always, thank you for the support. You know, Rick, when you're walking down the line, you see smoke ball after smoke ball after smoke ball. What are you thinking in your head?

[A]

I'm thinking there's some good set targets and they got to be a white flyer.

[B]

They got to be white flyer. I mean, we were just a Nevada state shoot. We were shooting these things for the 27 yard line. They look like 16 yard smoke balls. And I'm like, only a white flyer can smoke like that. And we love them. And they've been sporting the show since day one.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Thanks for all the support.

[A]

White flyer, you know.

[D]

Absolutely.

[C]

Hey, there's a couple of paid employees at the ata. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not all volunteers. Right? I mean, you have some of that infrastructure, but yeah, it's. You're right. It's not easy. And to. To circle way back to the options and stuff. Rick, you kept saying like a thousand people played the Lewis right At the handicap last year. How many people were in the event total though?

[A]

Like what, what is that the total number? Let me see if I.

[B]

That he could find it. That's Ricky Marshall, the number man, right?

[A]

He'll get it.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

No, I know.

[B]

Jason. He's looking for that number. How long have you been a part of the ATA committee? And, and, and you know what's that journey been? Because I know you said Indiana for 10 years but, but what's your involvement with the ATA and how long?

[D]

So as far as that goes. So I was. I've been delegate of Indiana for I have 10, 10, 12 years. Now then as a central zone the each zone elects their. Which considered his own president which is ultimately the EC vice president representative. When I first got on the AS delegate John Burke from Nebraska was our. Was our central zone president, vice president and then five years of Daryl Hayes and then I took over from Daryl. So this is, this is actually I guess would be considered my fourth target year that I just started. And it's, and there's five zones so it's a, it's a five year rotation. You're basically on the executive committee for five years. Six. Six years if you count your ex officio year after your presidential year. So at this point I'll be Joe Sasano from the Eastern zones President this year. I will be president lord willing in 2027. So I've got one more year. One more year on the, on the executive committee then again bonus year as an ex officio. So let's go.

[B]

Congratulations on that.

[C]

Are you still the delegate from your state in addition to being. Is.

[D]

I am. I am.

[C]

Is that always how it is?

[D]

That's. That is per the ATA rulebook. After the del. After the delegate is on his second year on the executive committee he has the option of not becoming. Not. He doesn't need to be the state delegate anymore. And still beyond, still beyond the.

[C]

Just beyond the ec. Right.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

That's, that's a lot to juggle in addition. Right. Being in your state's delegate and you know.

[D]

Right. Absolutely.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

We're coming back to you. Did you find that the, the number there.

[A]

1771 entries in the Grand American Handicap.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Is what it was a thousand people.

[C]

Playing the Lewis is more than half. I mean it's.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you got, you got a thousand people playing the Lewis and, and going back to what Jason said about the, the Martin Lewis, the, the Martin money, you know all that. Yeah, I do agree with it. And, and I know because Bill and I talked about it, you know that it didn't touch anything. But Bill's hopes in that deal. Excuse me. Were that someone else would step up too and maybe try to donate some money and, and make this a great event. But also. And Bill would have actually donated a lot more Money if the ATA would have made it that you had to shoot 27 yard line to win the Grand American Handicap. That's what, you know, Bill's like, I'll give the winner a half million dollars, you know, but you gotta, they gotta do that. Well, you know, and I agree. You can't do that.

[C]

I've heard that bounced around, Rick. I've heard it bounce around that the championship handicap winner needs to be at the 27 yard line. You know, I, I've heard that to get the ring that you should be at the 27 yard line.

[A]

I personally.

[C]

So listen, Jason, I mean, well, I'll.

[A]

Squash all.

[D]

Book change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I, I disagree with it. And I disagree with it just like Ricky disagrees with it because, because what if the guy's on the 22 yard line? He's been working his whole life and, and getting there, and that's his day and he's been paying his dues and he went out and he shot that hundred and he beat Ricky, he beat Joey, he beat, you know, all these guys. Give the, give the guy the damn ring, right? I, I really think he deserves that. I think there could be something else maybe for, you know, maybe the 27 yard, you know, grand.

[A]

I don't even think that's like getting the attendance awards.

[C]

I see what you're saying.

[B]

It gets too choppy. It gets to, it gets to participation trophy in my mind. If you start.

[C]

Here's the thing. You have, you have a guy at the 22 yard line. You have a guy at the 27. Why is the guy at the 27? Well, he's.

[B]

Because he's got skilled shooters.

[C]

He's handicapped. That's why we call it that. So it's supposed to create an equal playing field.

[B]

So. Yeah, correct.

[C]

If a shooter gets, you know, at the 22 and he has the high score and he goes into the shoot off and he beats everybody or wins it outright. He won it.

[B]

So I actually am a big fan of the current handicapping system. I mean, if there's one thing that I think the ATA has done right, and I would say really good thing is the handicap system, if it equalizes the playing field. And I heard people say, oh, well, we got to put a 30 yard line or we got to do this and that, you know, the infrastructure cost alone to change any of that.

[C]

Yeah, I, I don't, I think, yeah, I don't think we have any.

[A]

You. It would be too much.

[C]

Yeah. Here's the thing on that line. Yeah, no, sorry.

[A]

No. What I was gonna, what I was gonna say is, you Know, Zach, I, I understand what you're saying with, you know, the, the whole handicap system and I think it's great too. I personally think there needs to be mandatory reductions.

[C]

I, I think this is a comment that came in.

[A]

I know that and I agree with.

[B]

That because I believe, I teach, I.

[A]

Teach a lot of people and they get to the 27. And listen, I was offered a reduction the very first time I made the 27 yard line. And I said, no, I'm not going to take it. I'm going to shoot another thousand targets and if I don't get my average up by then and get a reduction, then I'll take it. And fortunately, you know, knock on wood, sorry guys for the loud noise, but I've not been offered a reduction since I was 15, so, you know, 36 years ago. But I do know a lot of shooters that are back there and they tend to complain about, well, so, and so is always winning and, you know, I can't compete. Well, take your reductions and then you can't compete. That's why it's implemented.

[B]

You know, I just want to make a comment, I want to.

[C]

Optional. Where the reduction is always optional. Sorry, they are so far as I.

[D]

Far as I can remember.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I just want to know, Ricky, how did you feel that thousand targets that you were worried about not getting those punches, was that a hard time in your life for you?

[A]

Well, no, honestly, Zach, because that goes back to the list and I'm being serious and you're being a smart ass, I know that. But here's the thing is I, I made it to the 27 yard line. I got a five and a half yard or five and a half yards at the Grand America, my first grand because I was short targets. Nice shot, penalty 25. I was on the 20. I broke a 96, I got a punch to the 25 and a half. I got a couple yards off and then I slowly made it back. But when I did make it to the 27th at the Nebraska State shoot that year, we shot some weather after that, that it was tough. I mean, wind, you know, whatever. And then I really said, hey. And then that's when I, it clicked to, I need to change some stuff. I went back to, you know, Frank Hoppy and said, hey, I got to figure this out. And he helped me. And then boom. But that's the thing that a lot of people aren't doing is they just want to stay there to shoot with their buddies. And I get that to a point. But also you want to Be competitive.

[B]

And hey, I got you. I got something to say. If everyone got mandatory reductions, they'd still be shooting with their buddies in most case scenarios. Okay, let's just, let's just be real here. Okay? I, I was. I'd probably be at the 24 yard line about two years ago. I didn't mean I'd have been. Yeah.

[D]

I have no data that, that shows what kind of, how many reductions are refused, but I know that it's a, It's a big amount, but it's.

[C]

I think you can't have it both ways. You can't refuse your reduction and complain about who's winning the other yard.

[D]

That's 100%. But also, it's not just the, the reductions. It's the amount of. And as delegate, I see this all the time. And how the protocol usually goes is people that want to voluntarily increase their yardage, if they're at the 19 and they' buddies are all at the 23, they will contact me and ask to be moved to the 23. And I have no issues with it. The one stipulation that I make sure very clear that if you do this, you will not get a review for two, two full years. Hoping that maybe they'll say, oh, well, you know, I want to, you know, start getting reductions right away after I go to the 23. But 100% of the people that I tell that has no issues with that whatsoever. And I've seen people move from the 19 to the 25. And I, I tried to discourage them and, and, you know, tell. Encourage them not to do this, but. But they do it because they want to shoot with their buddies.

[A]

Now, Jason, on that note, what is the. Can you go. You can't go to the 27. Can you go to the 26 or is it the 25? Is that the furthest back.

[D]

It's. The rule is that you can't. You got to be punched to the 27. Most people, especially because of the way they want to shoot with their buddies. 25 is far enough. So that's where they. I've never had anybody has to go to the 26. They just go to the 25 so they can shoot with their 27 yard. 27 yard buddies. But.

[A]

Okay, I always wondered that.

[D]

27. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I could see the other side of the coin. Like the guy wants to shoot with his buddies. I mean, and this is a, A team. It's not a team sport, but it's a, It's a team environment where you're Shooting with guys you like, you're barbecuing together, you're going to dinners together. I can see that. But. But I wonder sometimes. And like Ricky was saying, you can't have it both ways. Or like John was saying, you can't have both ways. You can't shoot from the fence or back there, not win and then complain that you're not winning because the same guys are winning. Because if you're not winning and you want to move forward, I mean, what do you know? I mean, is the number 90 average or what. What does it have to be under?

[A]

It depends on the zone, actually.

[D]

I think it's all the same now. It used to depend on the zone. I think everything's 90 now. It's either 89 or 90, but it used to vary.

[A]

It was like west coast was like 90 or 91. Central was always about 90, and then like East coast was 89. And yeah, I remember it was a weird. It was like, okay, 1%'s making it, you know.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. What based on what zone doesn't matter what zone you shoot in. It was what zone you lived in. So that.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Because there's people in New York, you know, and then shot in other, you know, Florida, so.

[D]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Jason, you know, you being the person that's going to be the president here in 2027, and let's go into this topic pretty deep. Is there anything that you personally would vote for or you personally would suggest, in your opinion? I mean, this is. As a shooter and as someone that's been around a very long time, and obviously it might not get approved or, you know, but is there. Is there any of this stuff that you've already thought of, or is there any other ideas that we're not touching.

[D]

On as far as with the money? It. I can't give anything. Any. Tell you anything specific that I would champion. I don't. I haven't had that idea come through my head that this is what I need to get behind. And because this is going to make a difference. Now, that doesn't mean that I couldn't learn that tonight on this. On this podcast or a podcast. I listen to you guys driving down the road next week that, like, you know what? That's. That's the answer. And I haven't heard that. That one answer. Just throwing added money. I don't. I don't think that that's, you know, a chunk of change. I don't think that's the answer without a better plan and to go. But just like And I want to touch back on the, on the Martin money, because that was, I mean, that, that created excitement for sure, both when he did the, you know, the, the handicap shoot off as well as the added money. The numbers didn't show that anybody else showed up at the shoot because of it. And then it went away. And it's something you can't just do one. You can't try something once and think that is momentum. You gotta, you gotta get momentum. You gotta, you gotta invest in, you know, two, three, four years trying something before you can, before you can just flat out say it didn't work.

[B]

I agree with that 1 million percent.

[C]

You really have to, like, if so, if, and maybe this is something that you could give us some insight to also. You know, like, let's just take Joey's idea again, right, where we say, okay, we're gonna bump the price up on these events by $2 or $10 or whatever it may be. And that money is going to go into this type of purse and here's how it's going to be paid out. And okay, let's just say the EC gets behind that. Well, the next flip of that page has to be like, and how are we going to make sure for the next six months leading up to the Grand American that everybody knows about it, right? And, you know, that's really what it takes. You're going to, you know, in, in just to relate it to Vegas, right? So we get the program out as early as we can. We try to talk about everything we're going to do as early as we can. We had, we paid out $168,000 in options, you know, at our state shoot, right? And we had a, you know, a very large shooter auction and, you know, all these things. But you, you got to have both sides of that because if someone just brings you an idea, hey, Jason, you guys should take two bucks and put it here and give it out and be like, yeah, but that's great. And if nobody knows about it, it doesn't move your needle. And your needle is great growth, right? You want more people there next year than you had there last year.

[D]

Yeah. And you guys. And actually that's something that did come up in the, in the comments. That, and the Nevada State shoot and, and the Heartland grand are two fantastic examples of shoots that are doing, doing it right. I mean, you guys are, you guys in Nevada are setting a fantastic example. I got to tell you just a little bit. Side story that just came up yesterday. I was talking to a good friend of mine, shooting buddy from Ohio. I won't name any names, but he was talking to a guy from Ohio at a shoot last weekend, at a meet shoot last weekend, shooting for turkeys. And this gentleman from Ohio had. Shooter from Ohio had gone to the Nevada State shoot for the very first time this year. And he told my friend that if you only go to one state shoot, if you can only afford to go to one shoot a year, you should go to the Nevada State shoot. And that's.

[C]

I already know who it was. It was Pat McCarthy.

[A]

Yes, Kevin. No, it was. No, it was Kevin Dawson. I'm not saying I know who it was. First time coming out, it might have.

[D]

Been Michael Blair that he told me. But I'm not saying names.

[B]

Ricky. Ricky's not good at the not saying name. Okay? Ricky knows all things. He's all, all knowing Ricky. He's going to tell you it is what it is.

[A]

But I mean.

[D]

That'S a hell of a compliment for sure. And you know, I haven't been to Nevada, but I've seen it at, at Stockdales at the, at the Heartland. At the Heartland grand, which has been one of the fantastic things when I joined the ec one of the. I expected to go to the satellite grands in my zone, which is the Great Lakes grand in Michigan and the Heartland grand in, in. In Iowa. And I don't know that I would ever gone to the Heartland. You know, two weeks after the grand. Kind of tired, kind of, kind of ready to get on with the year. And I love, like, that's Dale's and I, I've seen it firsthand. And he, and what he does and with the, with the meals and the, and the games and the entertainment and.

[B]

Everything, it's top notch, right, Jack? Dale's a great guy.

[C]

Yeah. That shoot was my inspiration. I went out to Dale's and I spent some time with Dale and you know, he just nails it. You feel like he wants you there.

[D]

You.

[C]

You feel like, hey, the shooting's done, but here, have some food and hey, let's do some nighttime stuff. He was a lot of the inspiration. Inspiration for Nevada 100. So I give a ton of credit to Dale. And then Sean Holly was kind of, you know, at the, at the Western grand in Bernal. That was my other inspiration because he always made sure there was something to do because the reason that we don't have this problem in Vegas, but with Dale's and with Sean's place, you know, so Vernal, Utah and, and in Iowa and Ackley, there's not a lot to do.

[A]

A lot of corn, so.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of corn, you know.

[C]

But they were kind of forced into, like we should. These people came all this way. We should take care of them. And we kind of in Vegas, we kind of took that same spirit. Now we have the strip and we're in Las Vegas. So, you know, we definitely have some stuff to do. But even if you're out of shoot for a week, you don't want to go to the strip every night. Like, you guys know how it is. It's just not something you want to do. But, yeah, they were definitely my inspiration. But Dale, I. I always felt Dale was like the gold standard. Like, you couldn't feel more welcomed, taken care of, cared about. Unless you. You were at Dale's like, you know.

[B]

Rick, I just love having the peace of mind and knowing that if I'm traveling or I'm flying, something happens, I can get my winig and my craig off replaced quickly and easily without costing me a bunch of money.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. The gun and trophy insurance, it's the best out there to ensure your guns, sure. Your trophy, animals, everything.

[B]

Thank you to the whole Cushman family for supporting the show and everything they do for trap shooter.

[A]

Absolutely. Like, get a hold of Cole Kushman and he'll get you set up.

[B]

You know, Rick, the only thing looks better than these hats we're wearing right now is a bunch of gold and silver from Ron Prescott at mid state precious metal. Show them the goods.

[A]

Listen, oh, I got silver right now. I won't bring the gold out for.

[B]

Zach, but you know, I always want to get that.

[A]

Gold shotgun shells, 10 ounce bars, folks. He can do anything for you. For all your shoot needs. Give Ron Prescott a call. Midstate precious metals dot com.

[B]

And he's a great guy. Support him. He supports all the shoots. He supports trap. Talk. If you're thinking gold or silver, you need to be thinking Ron Prescott at Midstate precious metals. Thank you, Ron.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Thanks for all the support you put into this, you know, kind of theme as shooters want to feel meaningful, worth celebrating rewards that match the competition and have a. Have a. A welcoming feel like. Like this is our big thing that we're going to.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is why I would not miss it for the world. Like, and. And I think, you know, it's. It's hard to do that in every state because like I said, there's only so many dollars. And that's the unfortunate part of it. But. But at least for the grand like the grand could be. We dream of this all year. The reason why people start practicing and working in February is because, by golly, when I get to the grand this year, I'm going to be ready and I'm going to show up and I'm going to compete for something, you know, grandiose at some level. And I think that, you know, sometimes doesn't always feel as valued as it might mean to some people. And, and that's, that's a disconnect where like, like we said, you, you guys are doing a great job. It's just a lot of people don't even know what's happening in the background. They don't know how much work you're doing behind the scenes. They don't know what's going into it. And unless you've got a John slinker sending you 32 videos on the Internet a day, you know, one a day.

[C]

I don't know, maybe two.

[B]

Maybe two a day, you know, I gotta tell you. And, and to speak on people missing things, he has blasted every single thing there was to blast out of, out of, out of the Nevada state shoot on videos. And for the life of me, when I got to Nevada and I seen that they were giving shells too. I'm like, I didn't know about that and I'm, I'm in on the videos. So, so, like, you gotta think about this, folks. I'm in on these videos and like, I didn't know about the shells until I got there. It's hard.

[A]

I knew about the shells as, as.

[B]

You should, Ricky, you know, all things.

[D]

But I knew about the she.

[B]

But I'm like, you know, what, how many, how many other people don't know about any of this crap? Like, they're just like, they just show up and oh, what they giving?

[C]

Oh, you know, hey, so, so, so, Jason, to stay on the grand, because this is like, obviously a huge topic for us. It's like talking about the super bowl and we love talking about it. But in, in, in other sports, right, this is something we've been bouncing around a lot. There's a couple things you see in other shotgun sp sports. You see the podium, right? You see the trophy ceremony and you see big ceremonial checks. If I had to like, say, like, what do I see in some of the other sports, right? Even at the end of any, you know, international bunker thing, there's always a pseudo podium, right? At the end of every sporting place thing, there's a podium and ceremonial checks. Even if there's only for like five grand or something. Right. You know, which is a lot of money. But it has. Have. I know we end on Saturday at the grand, and it's kind of Sunday's the travel day, and I get all that. But has there ever been any talk of podiums, ceremonial checks, you know, trophy ceremonies for the ring winners, like, you know, like a closing ceremony, almost like, you know, has there ever been any of that kind of talk? Has that ever come across the table at the ec?

[D]

There has. And actually, it's funny you bring that up. And I kind of forgot about this. But last year, so going to the 20, 24 grand, I was. All right, I'm sorry. 20, 25 grand. I was listening to these guys that have a trap shooting podcast that. That do. I do appreciate how much time you guys. I spend with you driving down the. Driving down the road.

[A]

We appreciate you.

[C]

We're good on the road.

[D]

Yeah. I tried. I tried to argue back, but you. But you never.

[A]

You could call moving on.

[B]

Don't argue with Ricky.

[D]

But these guys, These guys on this podcast brought something to my attention. It was kind of along the same. Same lines. It wasn't necessarily just like the podium, but the fact that something came up. You guys were talking about when somebody won. Maybe it was the singles championship, and three nights later after the end of the shoot off or that, you know, it should be a big deal. And it opened my eyes, and I thought, you know what? I don't. That's a great point. And it. I just happened to be up there. I think it was when the. Maybe it was the Devil's doubles shoot off concluded, and I was behind the grandstand and heard, well, this year it was. Lauren had announced the winner. I made a beeline out there just to make sure because always before, I never thought about that. You know, he won. Wow. You know, see him in the magazine. And. But to take that opportunity at that very moment is key. And it literally took 30 seconds to do so. And. But it's very important. And that brought that to my attention. And it's something that we did discuss at the EC that we need to. The problem is there's always a but type situation. To your point. Saturday, grand getting over on Saturday. And by the time the shoot off and the dust settles and half the people have already on their way home. But, you know, it's. It's. Everybody just wants to get the heck out of there. And that's.

[B]

Yeah. And maybe a way to. To. To. To be able to highlight those people still is. We know who won last year, right. And we have an opening ceremony, so why not bring them out in front of the crowd the next year and say, you know, these guys are dressed the nines. You, you bring them out and you say, these are last year's ring winners and you guys are about to compete for the world championships of trap. Let's get it on. Like, let's get it on.

[C]

And that's like the last year's ones to beat, you know. Yeah.

[B]

These are guys that you're going to be. And you know, it's as little as. You might not have the crowd there, but with the power of the Internet, if, if somebody. And, and I believe who you were speaking of, Jason, was, was Jack. Was, was Jack when he won the all around. Because I don't think anyone was there when he won that shoot off. But it might have been a different one.

[A]

I can tell you the story. Well, I can tell you what we were talking about, Zach. It was the year that Richard Schrode won the clay target against me. And we went into. It was pretty late at night and he won. And he goes, I thought this is a big deal. Yeah, I thought this was a big deal. And I said, well, it is a big deal. And he goes, well, no one's here to congratulate me. And I said I'm sorry. And that's what it was. And it was. And it, it kind of hit home and Lucky Nightingale was actually the, the shoot off director or in charge of shoot offs at the time. And Lucky came up and because I told him and Lucky congratulate him or something. And then off we went and he's a pita shooter, you know, which Zach, I think you've shot against Richard before.

[B]

But I shot with Richard. He's a great guy.

[A]

I mean, great guy. So he's a great guy. And so to Zach's point, I think that would be an awesome deal because it would be tough to say, hey, all five of you winners at the end of Saturday, let's get together, do that. Well, some people got to travel.

[C]

I was going to ask how they get their ring. Rick. I was going to say, like, well, just don't give them the ring. Make them come get it.

[A]

I mean, the ring, you don't get the ring, it gets mailed to you.

[C]

There is, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just think for the power of the Internet like we were talking about, right, when they win, there needs to be somebody that runs up to them with a microphone and gets 30 seconds to a minute of what's going through your mind, you know, everyone is just seeing you win this. And even to the point that, you know, how hard would it be to. When you get down to the last two people to shoot off to film it, like, it's, it's, it's something that you can.

[D]

Yeah, this is.

[B]

See it. Right? And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And seeing it at the bottom of that, you could put a logo on it for the signature sponsors. You could, you could run that thing on a live webinar for people so they could say, holy crap, I want to go next year and I want to watch Matthew Bartholow in a shoot off or I want to watch Ryan Glow or I want to watch Ricky Marshall or whoever it might be. Right. But I think you have to, you have to. The people are gone, so you have to make it get Internet big. And then you have to celebrate them when the crowd's there. Because I agree, if you did an event the last day of Saturday, I'm not gonna stay. I'm going to have steak with Rich.

[A]

Bullard and he lit. Hey.

[B]

I'm an hour and a half away and I will be at any change in the couch.

[A]

Next year's grand. Just so you know, Zach.

[B]

Yeah. Bullard's on his own.

[A]

You've heard it here.

[C]

Hey, let's, let's, let's unpack that because I really love it. I, I love doing something in the opening ceremony for last year's ring winners.

[D]

That would be awesome. I actually just wrote that down and I guess that was really cool. I'll write it down real small here. Zach's idea.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Listen, take credit to my idea. It's not going to go through.

[C]

No, it's Jason's idea. He's on the East. It was his idea. That's why it's gonna work.

[A]

Just.

[C]

Yeah. But hey, on the other thing of what Zach is saying, a couple of things came up in the comments. Jason, I don't know if you saw these, but a couple people were saying, why are we not broadcasting live the shoot offs? Right. Because that is that thing like I, I always mess up. The organization that does the international bunker. What is it, Rick?

[A]

The issf.

[C]

Thank you. The issf. Right. So they broadcast. They have a very. That production's super high level. But now with today's technologies, they have these live broadcasting things where you can leverage the WiFi and cellular and all this kind of stuff and you can do that. And I was always thinking that would be a great opportunity, like Zach is saying, to show the people that couldn't be There that year.

[D]

Right.

[C]

That's what video, the power of video. But more importantly, yeah, I think if you're grabbing that, just those clips, like when we put up clips last year during the Grand American on the Trap talk channel, we probably had 200, 300,000 views on our videos. And these were just short little clips of Ricky and Zach maybe grabbing the winners or showing the shoot offs, you know, stuff.

[A]

Well, the blue gray shootout, John, when you, when you videoed that, the blue gray, I mean people were that, I mean the crowd watching that is way bigger than the crowds watching some of the shoot offs. So yeah, I think just, you know, us even out there throwing, having John video some of it, it's, it's one of those, that one, it gets it out to people that can't be there too. It's, there's a memory set.

[B]

It creates, it creates buzz. And here's the other thing you have to think about. There's some people out there that are lifelong trap shooters, but maybe because of age and health, they're not going to go to the ground anymore. Yeah, but if you, if you had a live link for them to watch, they would watch it and they would probably say, hey grandson, come in here. I used to shoot this game. This is what I used to do. I mean, they talk about ripple effect and when you're talking about ripple effect, you can never quantitatively get a number on what the impact is on touching somebody and reaching somebody. That's unaccessible. And I, I think that's the whole premise of where I said, hey, there's really nothing here. What we're doing. Let's, let's do this and let's see. And yeah, it's, it's been very cool.

[C]

And I think, you know, you leverage companies like, I don't know, Shot co Productions or something, right. And then you have them like sell advertising inside of your live feed. And now you're taking in more sponsorship dollars and that covers the infrastructure cost. Right. You know, like those type of things, you're not only getting the word out, but now you're creating more revenue streams for the ATA also.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And so it makes it a benefit for you. But I think the biggest takeaway here is that you know when you're at shoots and you get a text message, hey, great shooting on that handicap, that it's because people are out there watching the school.

[D]

Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If you, if you supplemented that. And again, I'm just talking the Grand American, not every satellite grand and you know, but at the Grand American. It's like we are broadcasting these shoot offs, right? Which is another thing that I think this might be a good segue. Guys. People are saying, why are we not shooting off all these events at the Grand American? Why are we having so many carryovers? Maybe we could get Jason's opinion. Well, on, on that. Is there, is there a, is there a theme on that that you guys talk about?

[D]

It's so funny that that can come up and not. I have a lot of experience talking about this at the Indiana State shoot level.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[D]

But it's certainly, you know, something that we talk about and I, I'm more curious to hear what your guys's opinion is.

[C]

We have carryovers in Nevada, so I know why we do.

[A]

I'll give you my opinion. And, and, and it's a two, two sided opinion. One, I, I understand what the shooters are saying on the lower level and the top level because one, I'm fortunate to be in a lot of those shootouts or carryovers. Two, I teach a lot of those people that are fortunate at their best day of their life. They break a hundred in the doubles at the Grand American and they go, oh, I got to carry over. And they always tell me this, Rick, I might be able to beat you that night, but I'm not going to beat you when we start carrying over. And, and I agree with that. I mean, it's because it's a longevity. So we used to shoot off the doubles every night at the Grand American in Vandalia because I was one of those recipients of, back when you only had the class trophy. And Sean, Holly and I went 200 in the shoot off. We ended up then finally carrying over. He broke 100, I broke 98, I got zero. I didn't get anything. But we were shooting with some people in that shoot off back then that hadn't never broke a hundred. So they got the experience. So, yes, one, it's going to cost the ATA some more money because of targets. I do understand that. So that's kind of the, you know, but I think it could be done with the doubles. But then I also understand that, hey, this is the world championships and when you start shooting off every night, because I have been fortunate at times to be in the shoot off every night at the grand. And it's long and tiring. As you know, Jason, you're out there.

[D]

You know, long days, long nights and the nights.

[C]

That's a good question.

[B]

Is it, is it target?

[C]

Is it target pricing? Is it long days? Like, do we know why that decision happened.

[D]

It's not because, remember, it's target pricing as well as personnel and employees. That's, that's okay.

[C]

All right. It's never, it's never just the price of a white flyer, right?

[D]

Yeah, it's the, it's the paying all the people. And you're paying all the people overtime at that point too.

[C]

That's got to be expensive. Oh, yeah, it's got to be expensive.

[B]

And, and like, I don't know, I think, I think it's expensive. But I agree. I mean, I will say with Ricky saying what he said about being tired but being in shoot offs every day, you know.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

That. That is something that will happen at the top level of the game. I think that there's something so special. And I will just say this because I had the opportunity of being in. I've gotten to shoot off with Leo and some of the other greats in areas where carryovers. I would have never had that opportunity. And so.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Did you win? Maybe? No. No, you didn't win. But did you get to step out and look to the left and see Ricky or look to the right and see Ray or look to the, you know, see these people with you? There's something that you can't put a dollar figure to when you can go back and tell your buddies, I got to stand out with the greatest shooter in the world that one day and I might not have won, but I got to shoot there with them. And I think that there's, there's some value to that now. I don't know, you know, what the solution is, where it is. I really don't think anyone would say, hey, let's shoot the class singles on Monday. But you know, Ricky, I know you use it on your barrels, but you even know what RGS stands for?

[A]

No, Zach, what does it stand for?

[B]

Really good.

[A]

Well, that is true. It is good stuff, folks. I use it to clean my barrels and it does make them shine.

[B]

Only problem is I wear white T shirts when I clean my barrels and I get them all messy, so I got to be better at that. But it gets all the plastic, all the gunk out. Give them a try, folks. They're great.

[A]

That's right. Give RGS a try. We appreciate all the support, Rick.

[B]

I really think that gunfit is probably the most important part of shooting big scores. Would you agree with that?

[A]

Absolutely. I think gun fit is the most important thing.

[B]

I mean, most of the top all Americans are shooting custom stocks. I know when I got my custom stock, my Scores went up. I broke 127 within seven days. I mean I'm sure your experience has been similar.

[A]

Yeah, I've been shooting a custom gun stock for 20 years. Winning. If you want to win championships, get a win a gun stock.

[B]

Yeah, call Bobby, call Luke. I mean we got the stock whisper over there Bill, give them a shot. They're great and they know what to they're going doing.

[A]

Absolutely. Winig.com Check them out. Hey Zach, have you been out to 73 Pointers Ranch lately?

[B]

You know I have. Rick and Carla Burke have been great. I normally hunt pheasants and chucker down there, but now they got a brand new sporting clay facility and it is topnotch. I shot it the other day, absolutely loved it. And if you guys haven't, you need to go give it a check out.

[A]

Well, I'll have to come out and do a little hunting and we'll shoot.

[B]

Some sporting clays then 45 minutes from St. Louis, Louis Airport. Come see it if you haven't guys, check them out. But, but, but I'm sure there's some people you should shoot the. I, I, I remember when you had to shoot 200 birds for the class singles on Monday night and bank them.

[A]

And then it was 50 and then you.

[B]

Was it 50?

[A]

50?

[B]

Yeah, so, yeah, but you're, these are.

[C]

These are the stories, but this is, our whole sport is built on this.

[A]

And that and going back to what Zach said. Now I know they do do it now, Jason, but the champ of champs, they used to shoot that off. Okay, And I, and that why I bring this up is I was 16 years old and I won the Nebraska state singles. Got to shoot the champion champs in Vandalia. I broke a hundred. I went out in the shoot off. I was standing out there with Benius, Leo, Frank Little ball. I mean out of like 20, I, I don't know the exact number and Zach's gonna call me stupid because usually I do know this, but it was like 24 of us broke hundreds but like 18 of them were first team all American or were all Americans, you know, type guys. And after the first round it was down to me, Leo Harrison and Frank Little and I went out and shot off and they both missed. And I went and I missed and I end up losing. Okay, I got third, but that's one of my best. And we had the buckle and trap talk this year. It was one of my most precious trophies I've ever won because I was able to shoot off against Frank Little and Leo Harrison because they were the two best. And so that's something that actually did that get me hooked to continue to do this for the next 35 years? Probably.

[B]

Yeah. And I had a very similar experience. I won the junior title in California one time and, and the state. When I got done winning that, that day in California at Kingsburg, the whole board of directors came to me and said, you're going to the grand this year. And I hadn't, I hadn't done that yet. And they said, you're going to shoot in the champions of champions. And I think there needs to be a lot more education on the champions of champions. And the, the, the honor that it would be to compete with all of the great state titles and, and then go out in and. And gunfight. I mean, this is cowboy stuff. I mean, this is, this is Wyatt Earp. Okay. Corral. Right. Like you wanna, like we're shooters. People want to have a story and when they can tell that story, that's what's gonna bring them back. Because you can't put a price on a feeling.

[C]

And a lot of the shooters, because they don't get in a lot of shoot offs, they are the biggest memories that you have.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Walk out there, your heart is already pounding. You're like, wait a minute, what's going on here? You know, the excitement is already there. So, so, Jason, outside of the EC, though, do you have an opinion on that? Like, how do you feel about it?

[D]

Oh, yeah, I see that one both ways. And like I said, in Indiana, we. It's. It's been a constant, constant conversation for 15 years now. I've been involved with the board. Indiana is one of the few states that we still shoot 200 class singles on Thursday.

[A]

Yep.

[D]

And until probably it wasn't Covid, but it was when, when the price of shells skyrocketed a few years ago, that, that was. And, and the price of targets went up. And that was finally the, the year. And I'm the guy that runs all the shoot offs. So not only did.

[B]

Yeah, it was a, it was a double whammy.

[D]

But I was, I had. The Thursday nights were a long, long, long night, knowing that the Saturday was gonna, I was gonna be back, right back and doing the same thing.

[B]

But it goes back to the volunteers again.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Like, who's gonna, who's gonna step up? I mean, all these guys that are stepping up, they're like, well, we're the ones doing all the work. Everybody's getting all this, you know, this, this greatness. And we're the ones that are tired at the end of the day and put in this effort and that's a thankless job. And you, you, you did that. And you know, I've come to love carryovers later on in the career, but if it wasn't for the shoot offs back then I wouldn't have those foundational stories and foundational, like, sparks in my heart that made me fall in love with the game. And, and to do shoot offs for.

[C]

Like everything except for singles. Could you just say, like all doubles and handicaps have to be shot off? Like, is that.

[D]

Yeah. And we do balance actually is the Nevada. Do you carry the, the handicap over?

[A]

No. So.

[C]

Well, we, we let you carry the handicaps if there's no yardage.

[D]

Changes. Changes. You shoot it. Yeah.

[C]

And we're doing that for a lot of the reasons of dinner and then nighttime events and we're trying, you know, silver shootouts and all the stuff we're doing. So we are trying to move it through.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Obviously staffing and target pricing is a factor here, but just to circle back to get your kind of final thought on it, Jason, like you're saying, you understand it from both sides.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So what is the. Is it a topic that comes up or is this more signed that's kind of settled and you guys don't really deal with.

[D]

I think at the EC level that. That's something that's pretty settled. Carryovers. Carryovers seem to be the, the most popular. Not the, not the, not the, the majority prefer the carryover. Now there's always.

[B]

What if we.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, is there a possibility to say, like. Well, if it ends in the word championship, it's getting shot off, you know, classic.

[A]

Well, every championship. Well, yeah, there's a lot of championship.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[D]

In grand week, they might be. I'd have to look at the program. We might have more championship events than I.

[A]

Yeah, every.

[B]

Everything's a championship. The Kaboti class champion and.

[C]

Yeah, okay. Sorry, but I, I mean, I meant real championships, but maybe plus class.

[B]

You know, if, if, if I was going to say dipping the toes into the water and trying this, I would say it would make sense to shoot off the, the class doubles, the championship doubles, the. And men. And then if you were going to add something, the class singles at a certain amount of birds, 50 birds, 100 birds, whatever.

[D]

Or.

[B]

And the cl. And the, and the champions of champions. But you know, you could say, hey, grand week, we shoot off. Preliminary week, we carry everything over. And that, that gets rid of a lot of that first week. Because here's the other problem. Prelim week, you're shooting 300 birds a day. Okay. You should 300 birds a day for that first 30 days, five days you're out there and you've got a handicap shoot off and a double shoot off every single night. Boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean that, that is something where you're doing a service to the shooters that are at the top level to let them carry over the first week. And then in the second week, hey, this is, this is where the, the, the, the the metal meets, meets the road. It's rubber meets the road.

[A]

Yeah, rubber reach the road.

[B]

But it's okay, we're rolling. Metal meets the road, baby. We change things around you to say I don't need to follow your trends. I make my own trends. Okay, we roll.

[C]

Hey, the metal is meeting the road. Now I agree with what Zach's saying is like I would only consider this championship week. I, I would consider it in the top five events which is the class singles and doubles and then the Haas.

[A]

Well, here's what I would say is you could possibly and this is something you guys could talk about Jason and just see if it if what they thought but is saying okay guys, here's the deal. We're going to shoot off the two hundreds in the class singles. You're going to shoot 100 targets or go back to the 50 and it's. You go out, you shoot 50 no matter what happens. And, or that's what I would say for the class singles. That way it gives people the opportunity to get in the shoot off and then the doubles is you guys go out and you shoot and you can shoot two rounds of doubles and you bank those 40 targets and then everybody's done type of deal for that. That's what I would say.

[B]

Yeah, you could do a hybrid like after 40 like he's saying then it goes back to a carryover if it's not settled because how many people then would be, you know, out of juice? 40 targets.

[A]

40. That's a possibility. I know there's a little bit of cost into that but I, I think it gives people the memories and the ability to shoot off.

[B]

But you know.

[C]

Yeah, I think, I think with all these things too. Jason is. It would be really awesome if the, the communication channel of the AT whether that's, that's Lynn or you guys or whoever. Right. Had an opportunity to come out to the member base and say hey everybody, this year we are going to be doing shoot offs in the class events at The Grand American on championship week. And here's how they're going to work. If nothing else, it's marketing. It's something for you to come out and say, hey, we're thinking about this. We're considering trying different stuff. So it's not always just the value you get out of the competition side of it, but you also get this intrinsic marketing value of something to talk about and to just to reassure the member base at every turn. We're thinking about this, we're considering it. We want to try something this year that we, you know, that we got away from or that hasn't been done before. I think that goes a long way just at the organizational level, you know.

[B]

Just something people want to know that people are trying. I mean, you know, nobody. Nobody's going to blame someone for trying. And it might not work, but trying, I think, is what this country is built on. People working at something saying, hey, we want to keep pushing the level of excellence at whatever that is. And sometimes there's some flops. You know, it is what it is. But.

[C]

But I mean, can imagine this. Imagine, like Lynn gets an opportunity to come out and say, so this is what we've been talking about. This is what we're considering doing. And we think at this year's Grand American, what we'd like to try is X, Y and Z. And you can even say, like, if it doesn't work out, it's out. But we think this would be a fun thing to try to get the engagement to get people to come out. It gives the organization, like, just something to come out and kind of focus on and keep the buzz going, you know, So I just think there's a lot of value just in that side of trying stuff.

[D]

Yeah. But like everything else, there's. If just like this class singles Monday opening ceremonies, pretty much right after. Right. Right after the line clears. So. And not just, you know, it's. It's. Everything's fixed and it's. But it's. The grand schedule is. Is pretty tight and it's very packed. And in order to change anything, it's going to have an effect on. On something else.

[B]

On everything.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You guys, there's only so many minutes in the day.

[D]

Yeah. You had Joey on or the back fence shootout. Like, I love that. I. It's a fantastic concept. I think I haven't seen it yet in Ohio, but I look forward to seeing it. I hope it was.

[C]

It was pretty epic. Yeah.

[D]

Like, I love every. Everything about the idea, but I just don't know how to make it fit at the grand into the grand schedule without taking, taking something out. I know, get rid of the doubles that, that, that aren't part of the, the hoa, but it, the Kubota Doubles. Yeah. And, but that's a, that's a good, that's a good event and it's a traditional event and it's a sponsored event and it's, you know, I don't, I don't think that's just take, taking that away. Is, the, is as easy as just doing it.

[B]

Yeah, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't take the event away in any way, shape or form. I think, I think it's, it's the, the Kaboti Back Vent Shootout. I mean, it's, it's, it's. It, you, you keep that sponsor there, there, right? You just morph it into something. Maybe they can get more ad dollars out of, maybe they can get more exposure out of. Maybe they can get more bang factor. Maybe they say, hey, we're going to give you a, you know, a rig to give away or something along those lines is how I would, I would never turn dollars down or say we're getting rid of the sponsors. Like, you can't do that in a business. You just have to, you have to pivot at some level and say, you know, how can we get this done and how can we make it work if, if we were going to. One of my mentors always told me, he said, instead of saying, you know, how, we can't start asking how could we? And then, and then you start answering questions on, you know, what, what goes down that rabbit hole when you start saying yes and yes and yes and oh, and this and this and this. You don't know what anything can be until you really put some time and effort into it. And, and I will say I'm a big fan of the Kubota doubles. I have a pretty good average on the Kubota Doubles every year. The one that doesn't count, I always seem to do good on that one. But me and Joey, me and Joey, we laugh every year because I think it's either the last two years or three years in a row. Me and, me and Joey go out and we've been shooting together and we've said, koboti doubles, it's time to run 100 and, and me and him just go out and run 100 in the Kubota Doubles and then go to the. Go to the.

[A]

Go to the. I'm surprised Jason. I'm surprised Zach hasn't sent you a list of. Hey, could you get a grand ring for the Kubota Doubles?

[B]

Yeah, like, like show me some love over here. I'm, I'm, I'm real good on the Kubota Doubles, but that, that first, that first post of the championship double seems to get me a lot. So I, I, you think there's, he.

[D]

Has Kubota Devils trophies that he has. He wrote like championship, Kubota Devils championship guaranteed.

[B]

I have to stroke my own ego. Nobody else is gonna.

[C]

We, we did the, we did the back fence in, in Nevada and it was a success for sure. Obviously not as your big as year two in Ohio, but we did it on class day because it's a quicker day, right? Like the class singles, Class doubles goes pretty quick, you know, so we did it on that day and we, we were able to get it in and we're always fighting the light in the Nevada. But yeah, so I think this was probably proposed to you guys at some point, right? Like Joey came in and talked to you guys and that did come up, huh?

[D]

Absolutely. And the EC was, was very receptive. It's just that we don't know how, how to, how to make it happen. And I'm not 100 convinced that the grand is the right place for it. Satellite, grand, other, you know, big state shoots. And I think.

[C]

Because, because they have, they have a little bit more time and flexibility, right. They're not managing so many people. Right. So that's obviously a factor. Just a question for you, like if the membership base, you know, if they do some type of petition or you know, some type of proposal, like the membership base got behind it, like, hey, the membership base signed on this petition that they want this event at the Grand American. Like, is that something that the ECs ever had happen or would they be receptive to? Like if the membership base got together and said, hey, we want this, so we're telling you if you put it on, we're going to participate. And obviously, you know, I think probably Joey said too, there's a benefit back to the ATA inside that event. It's not like it just, you know, if it's a 200 ticket, 150 goes back to the shooters, but 50 of it comes back in to the ATA, right? So there, there's a good, you know, it's not like the ETA doesn't get a benefit from it. I think the thing that probably is because it would be so big, there'd be a staffing element. How do we pay for the staff? Right.

[B]

To do that, it might be huge.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Like a thousand people.

[D]

You know, to go back to your original question, as far as I know, in my limited time on the ec, I've never, never experienced that as far as, you know, a push from the membership on a, on a certain topic or anything like that. I have no idea if, you know, if that's ever, ever existed before, but.

[C]

Probably the delegates, right?

[D]

Absolutely. And, but from the EC and as a, you know, as a delegate or even if people on the EC that are former delegates, I mean, we're still there to represent the, the shooters. I mean, that's, that's, Nobody's on the EC because they were, it was a job, you know, it was, it was their. They. Everybody started representing the shooters in their state at some point and that's ultimately what everybody, that, the interest of everybody on the ec. That's why they're there.

[B]

That's what I've never seen anybody on the EC that wasn't passionate about the game of trap and didn't want to help in some way, shape or form. Hey folks, if you're wondering where you can get your merch, head on down to shop.taptalkpodcast.com yes, folks, you can get.

[A]

Hats, T shirts, sweatshirts, they even have a ladies tank, shooters, towels. We might have some new stuff coming out for the 20, 26 year here. Who knows?

[B]

We got all the swag. Head on down to the website. Thank you so much for being TRAP Talk supporter.

[A]

Thanks everyone.

[B]

And Jason, I can speak to you in regards to knowing. I know how much you love this sport. I know it's, it's, it's in you all the way down to your core. And you have dedicated a lot of your time and effort into this. And you know, there's, like we said, there's a million squeaky, squeaky wheels in the world all with, with things and stuff, but you're doing it. So you're doing, you're doing, you know, the, the volunteering side that a lot of people aren't. So, you know, thank you for that and, and the fact that you're willing to come on here and talk candidly about this and just an open forum without, you know, preparing a script or without, you know, knowing what we're going to get into. I mean, we really appreciate that because absolutely we were going to get into.

[C]

So no one could prepare.

[D]

John assured me he wouldn't make me look bad so that I am a good editor.

[C]

Listen, listen, I have to be a good editor, Jason. And look What I'm dealing with.

[A]

Yeah, look what he's dealing with, Zach. But hey, here's what I'll say about this. And because I'd been, as we guys been talking, I've been looking at, at numbers because I'm a numbers guy and here's my suggestion. And you can take it to the EC and tell them, I know it would be extra, but Sunday morning, Grant, it'd be the back Vent Shootout at the Grand American.

[C]

Oh, a little warm up into the championship.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. Because honestly, I'm looking at this, I'm, I'm looking at the numbers without taking out the Kubota doubles. Okay. Which you do not want to do because the Kubota doubles brought in 1437. Entrance into that. The Grand American doubles was. The class doubles was 13.97. So the Kubota was actually 40 shooters more. And so you don't want to lose that number because you're probably not gonna make that up on the, you know, back vet Shootout. But you could say, hey, here's what we're gonna do and we, we find an outside source sponsor, which is Joey's event, to sponsor that event on Sunday. And it could, you know, people stick around, shoot the back Vet Shootout Sunday morning and it, you know, you'd be, you know, starts at 9 o' clock and it's done by 1 o' clock or whatever. I know that.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, and the other thing that, you know, that opens up, Rick, which is it's a great point, if you did do an event on Sunday, which I know that's another day of travel for people, but if you did do an event on Sunday, you would have the ability to have a closing like champion ceremony now on Saturday night. Because now the people haven't left at some level. Not saying that we wouldn't do it.

[A]

I wouldn't. Zach. I wouldn't get into that right now because your people are, are gonna leave no matter what and some are going to stay. So you don't want to do that to where you got to mandatory make people stay. So I would just say, hey, I agree. Here's, here's another event that, trying to promote shooting and it's Sunday. I mean, you know, I'm there.

[C]

There's no punches. There's no punches, there's no trophies that they have to worry about. The ata, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's nothing sanctioned that they need to worry about. So it's not like you need the whole staff to stick around either. It's More about can we get scorekeepers.

[B]

Score keepers, you know.

[A]

Well, and here's the thing, because looking at it, John, it, the numbers don't lie. It's like we talked about with Nevada. And I know Jason, you know, he's been in this a long time as I have, when, when you look at numbers and stuff, you got to say, okay, can we physically get this done in the right amount of time to make it a great event and doing. We don't have like. John, you mentioned class day at Nevada. Well, that's 100 doubles and 100 singles. They don't shoot 100 singles, 100 doubles in the same day at the Grand American.

[D]

Right.

[A]

It's the class doubles and the President's handicap. So. Right, that's right. You're going to have shoot offs. So you can't, you know, and, and then you can't. Don't want judoffs to run till 2am so.

[B]

No, you.

[C]

I, I love this Sunday idea. It's kind of cool.

[B]

We're just adding more days of shooting. I love it.

[D]

I'm. Gonna, I'm gonna choose not to comment on that because I've never heard that idea before and I want to, I want to process that a little bit because it's nice. I mean I've been writing down a lot of things that Zach says. It's nice. I put Ricky's name next to this because this was his idea.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Ricky always comes in with bangers. I'm telling you, that's why he's in here. He's, he's got the, he's got the juice, baby. We love.

[C]

You gotta let him cook. You just gotta let Ricky cook.

[B]

He's, he's just thinking there and then boom, gold comes out.

[A]

Well, I just, I, I know what Jason's saying and it's a lot of pressure and what Jay, I mean I've been around a lot of the EC guys and I've been fortunate to travel with some over the years and, and, and listen to the off the mic stuff and, and understand what it does take and the workings of it and it's not a, it's a thankless job what you're doing, you know, for sure and because like I said, everybody's got an idea, but this is just something that, you know, I know Joey is so passionate about this backbench shootout and we with Trap Talk have made it, you know, grow with Joey and John and, and Greg Pink from SOS to, you know, doing all the software stuff for us on it and it's just another event that, you know, people want to be a part of, something that's new and fun. And so, hey, you know, that's just something to process and. And maybe throw it out to the other EC guys and they might be like, great, we got to be there another day. No, next year.

[C]

If next year there is a ring ceremony at the opening ceremonies and an event on Sunday. You hear. You heard it here first.

[B]

You never know what's going to happen. I'll definitely be there for the fish fry, but other than that.

[D]

I like the chances of the opening ceremonies edition a little bit better for next year, but that didn't mean the year after.

[C]

Small bites.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey, little, little progress is good. I mean, little bites, little things. Little, little traction points.

[C]

And Zach, you were talking about, like doing videos of it and stuff, right? That opening ceremony thing. If you had like the ring ceremony and like, these were our champions and they had that opportunity to not be all just kind of like, you know, disheveled from the day of shooting and shoot offs and they, you know, they can come out.

[B]

I think it would fit.

[C]

I think it could fit into the program.

[B]

Yeah. And they're wearing their rings and guess what? Then they got to come back next year and shoot because they won. Yeah. You're not going to, you're not going to miss that event. Event. Right. You're not going to miss that honor, is what I would think.

[C]

The video content from it, the print content from it, you know, that cover shot because.

[A]

Just the marketing tool of it.

[C]

Yeah, just the marketing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But you see like, USA shooting with their big group photo where everybody has their blazers on and it just looks like, oh, this is like a real thing, you know, that could be a cool opportunity, I think, for the eta. That'd be awesome.

[B]

Yeah. If Scott. Jen's win. So we'll have to do sleeveless blaze scissors. You know, that's just how it's going to be. You know, Peter Walker would be sleeveless, too. We might not be there yet, John. I mean, these, these are some. I've seen a lot of Holy T shirts at a trap shirt. And I'm not talking blessed by God.

[C]

I mean, different holes made me think, though. Could the ata, you know, like, hey, you get. You get your ring. But also, you know, we have the orange blazer, you know, like, you know, like they do masters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Everybody gets a dude. The orange jacket could be. Could be big. I mean, we might have a problem sourcing cotton for some of the winners, but. But it'll Here we go.

[A]

Here we go. Zach goes off on. Oh, no. And so.

[C]

Hey, Jason, just one last thing that was coming up a lot that you probably saw in those comments in. There was a lot of discussion around categories. And we don't have to go super deep, deep into it, but I was just more curious again. Okay. Because we hear things like, lady one should have an age, you know, requirement on it. Right. You need to be a certain age to get into lady one. Okay. Hey, there's too many categories. You know, the states have to buy X number of more trophies and. Okay, so that's the premise. Right. You probably saw some of those comments in there. And again, just. Just starting it. Kind of where we've been starting it. Is this something that the ATA and the EC looks at and says, because they've expanded over the years.

[D]

Right.

[C]

So. And I think I know why.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Money out, trophies in. You know, that was kind of our. The transition over the last X number of decades. Right. So does that come up at all? Do you guys discuss that, or is that a settled thing?

[D]

Constantly comes up.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[D]

Almost every meeting. And it was a great example last year. And since day one, every. Every EC meeting, I've ever been to the topic of doing something as a super senior. What the. You know, for the. Over the over 75 or over 80. And it happens in Florida. We do it at the Silver Dollar. They have a super senior category. State of Illinois State. Shoot. Has. Does that. The ATA just. We just never have. And the con. And the consensus Absolutely. Is that we have enough categories right now. Do we have too many? I don't know. I definitely think we. If we don't. If we don't have too many, we definitely have the perfect amount, but that always comes up as far as a super senior. Then last year at the EC meeting that came up and we actually put it out on the website that it was a little misleading. The fact that it wasn't misleading, but you had to read. The EC was not recommending that we. That we add a super senior category. The EC was recommending that the delegates discuss and vote on whether we want to have a super senior category, knowing full well at the time that as a delegate with a vote, I was gonna. I was gonna be against it. But that gave the delegates six months to talk to all their constituents, talk to all their shooters. Think about it. And I can't tell you how many delegates I talked to when it first came out, when the idea first came out that we were gonna vote on it at the grand that changed their position because talking both ways, some decided that they were in favor of it, some decided they weren't. Ultimately we put it to a full board of directors vote and it didn't go through and it wasn't real close, but there was definitely votes both ways.

[A]

Closer than you thought it might be?

[D]

I think so. I think so, yeah.

[B]

And Jason, I want to preface this because I mean this is, we got a lot of keyboard warriors in the world that are, you know, this idea, this idea and this idea at the end of the day, if you add categories, you're adding cost. So the question needs to be if you add categories, are you going to draw new people to the segment that you weren't previously drawing? Right. Like, like if, if there's already people that are 75 there, are there going to be new 75 year olds that show up? Because now we added a category and, and I guess my more doesn't always seem to be better. And I think at some level, you know, I would tend to agree with you. We either have the perfect amount or maybe a little less at some level. And I don't know which would go and where. So don't, don't ask me that or put me on the spot on that one right here. But, but I think what should be at some level is maybe a little bit more accolades or acknowledgement to let's just say the first team of whatever those are, right. Like you're going to do a, a 32 deep team or you're going to do, you know, whatever. Maybe you change those numbers a little bit where you know, the, the, the top team now, first team, five, ten members and there's a little bit more of a, a, a, a, a a bump up of something for that because it's such a high honor. And then you have all these other people that get a certificate or all these other people that get a pin at some level. But I think that, you know, it's, you know, you look at the people that are consistently paying the most money, consistently shooting your All Americans are going to a lot of shoots and they're, they're putting their dollars in and they're paying a lot of daily fees and you know, if, if Dagan Voigtman or Ricky Marshall wins captain of the men's All American team, he's getting the same patch and the same certificate as everyone else that, that kind of went in and down that deal and, and I think that I've seen some associations, you know, when it comes to the captain, you Know, giving, you know, some type of a jacket or some type of a plaque or some type of something that's just a little bit more special, because when you quantify the highest level of those teams, the person that's. That's captaining has probably spent $20,000 or more, at minimum, on the lowest end that I could think of to chase this. And that's like, menial numbers, like, if they're. If they figured out how to make it one way or the other. So.

[C]

So, you know, that's a thought that the captains. The captains of each team should have some little bit higher level of something.

[B]

Is that I would think it would be a little bit of an honor to say, you know what? This is why I want to be captain. You know, and it doesn't have to be.

[C]

Can we add them to the opening ceremony at the Grand.

[B]

I mean, that could be. That could be it, too. That could be the. The captains of the All American team make it out there at the opening ceremony the same way that the ringers would be.

[C]

These are your orange jacket.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we're.

[C]

But that's a lot. That's a lot of orange jackets. But that would be.

[B]

But I just.

[C]

I like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just seen, like, when I went over to Dale Stockdale's and this was what it used to be, but I've seen a lot of his All American team placements, and there were actual physical plaques that had his name and his amount of points on it and everything that he's hanging in the wall. And I don't know how many years ago they did that, but it was long enough years ago, because I've only ever gotten. I've only ever gotten certificate in the pin, so it was. It was a while back, but it was something.

[A]

Well, that was not by the ata, though. That was not done by the ata, Zach. Those were done by Federal Ammo companies did that stuff back then. Because I've got plaques downstairs with. With champion targets on them from federal when I was a sub junior captain.

[C]

Oh, that's cool.

[B]

Or not. The question becomes, then could you leverage the sponsors or leverage the people that are the title sponsors to say, hey, you know, this year this company has stepped up to do these five trophies for these five captains or these, you know, however many captains there are. But that would be. That would be something that. That, you know, might not cost a lot, but could also demand. Well, that's really cool. I. I want to. I want to set my mics for being the. The junior captain this year. Or the sub junior captain this year or whatever that might be.

[C]

Well, if they're not winning thousands of dollars, they have to win recognition. That's what they, they, they need the extra recognition, too.

[D]

Right?

[C]

Because if you brought them out in the opening ceremonies, like, here's our All American captains and here's our ring winners. I mean, that's pretty cool.

[B]

We're just spitballing at night here. You know, I'm completely talking off the cuff. So if there's any ideas that are just, that are just zinging off and they're dumb, like, you just gotta say, Zach, you know, you, you've had enough. You know, Ovaltine tonight, I just, I.

[C]

I wanted to, I wanted to hear what Jason thought of that for sure. And then I want to circle back to the category, but just on that All American point, you know, like, there's just so much going on, right, Jason? Like, there's the All American teams and there's the Grand American and there's the satellite grants, and I mean, I just know it from running a little state shoot in Vegas. Like, it takes up every moment. You know, it's like there's just a lot to consider and kind of work out, you know, on that side of things.

[D]

There is. And things are always going to slip through the cracks. That's unfortunate, but that's just how it is. As far as All American recognition, I think that's something that we certainly can take a look at. We haven't really talked about. I mean, we talk a lot about the All American teams and the selection process and the points and the, how the whole process works. But as far as the. Once the teams are awarded and listed, you know, there is the meet the All American. What's that? Is that Thursday?

[C]

It's a dinner. Yeah, there are many or whatever.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Meet the All Americans. And that's nice. The hats of the pitcher. And I think that's a, that's a, that's a, A great thing for the masses of the All Americans because, I mean, what's the number now? Is it like 250 all Americans a year? Or is it, I mean, between all the categories, first team, second team and everything. I mean, it's a lot of people.

[D]

It is a lot of people. And I don't know. I don't, I don't know the number, but.

[A]

I don't know the number either.

[C]

But the first team captains, right, the first team captains are that top level, right? You bring those guys out in the opening ceremony, you get the group shot, right? The group shot goes on the COVID of, you know, trap shooting USA Trap and field. What you know, so you get that opportunity there too. But just to close the loop here a little bit because I, I don't want to nail you down on this category thing, but you were saying it comes up almost every meeting. You guys are talking about categories. Are they right? Are they. We doing the right thing with categories, right? That, that is always the thing. So a couple, just working off a couple of the comments in here. One that comes up a lot is Junior Gold. Right. So does Junior gold come up a lot in your guys's conversations as far as the validity of that category with the age thing being 23, does that come up a lot?

[D]

It does. It absolutely does. And I know personally when it first came to exist, I thought it was silly. I think that was a category that didn't need to exist.

[C]

That's what you hear out, I think in the community sometimes. Right. Like why do we have it right?

[D]

And I can say that I've seen the numbers. I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I've seen the shoots. I've seen the people. I've seen the 22 year olds, the 21 year olds that are shooting because of that Junior gold category.

[B]

I agree.

[D]

I've done a complete 180. I think that the junior category is a solid category, but that's my.

[B]

I completely agree. And here's the reason. There's people that maybe their parents weren't going to pay once they hit 18, but now that they could still make that all American team and they could still build their resume whether it's for whatever college or whatever thing they're doing. I think there's parents that are stepping up and saying if you're still making that all American team, I'm here to support you or I still want to travel with myself, my son and, or my daughter and, and, and do that. So I think there is validity there. And now I will say I will take a chance to, to shame myself here. When it first came out, people called it the Zach Nini class by a lot of people that were aging me on because I was in open. And they're like, oh, Zach can't make the open team now. So they're, they're giving him Junior gold. And I'm like, I'm not going to say that. But, but it was that, that first year or two, it was, there wasn't a lot of traction. You could, you know, you could go do some serious Damage in Junior Gold. Now, I would tell you it's one of the, the hardest classes to win. I mean, you've got some serious.

[A]

Look who, look who was in it. Look who was in it for. For a while. Dagan Voitman and Ian Lawrence. Dagan and Ian. You know, I mean, so.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Well, I, I got one question. I got one question. And getting off this category subject, because I think the categories are set like they should be and they. And I think it's good. That's my opinion.

[C]

It came up from the fans, Rick.

[A]

I know. Well. And another deal from the fans. The main thing was why don't we end the target year on Saturday at the Grand America?

[C]

Yeah, this was a big one.

[D]

You're right. You're right.

[A]

I think it should be. I don't think you should be able to pull a Zach Nini and gain up on the All American team going to the Heartland Grand. Oh, did I say that out loud?

[B]

That Heartland Grant, that Harland Grant is, is money.

[A]

No, but here's what I think. Here's what I think. I think the, the, the, the Cardinal Classic and the Heartland grand should be the first satellite grants. The reason I say this, okay, is you can win the Heartland grand singles, you can win the Heartland Grand Doubles, you can win the Heartland Grand Handicap, but the Heartland Grand High overall is part of the satellite grand championships for the, the Kohler Shootout at the Grand. You don't get a shootout at the Grand Fort because it's after the grand, but it's in the current target year. So I never thought about that.

[D]

That didn't carry over. They don't make us exception to carry over to the.

[A]

No, never thought that. I think that literally the. Because after the World Series, they don't have another football game or another baseball game. They don't have super bowl, they don't have another football game till the next year. I mean, that's just my opinion. I know a lot of fans had brought that up, like, hey, why isn't the grand the last finale for the year?

[C]

Yeah, it did a lot.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had a lot of students I taught this weekend. And, and while I was at the Silver Dollar teaching, I had some people actually asked me that and I was like, well, I said, you know what? It used to. Then I said, well, now wait a second. The targeters always ended September 1, but there was never any major shoots after the Grand.

[D]

True.

[A]

So that's why.

[C]

And it's come up on the show before, Jason. Yeah. And you know, kind of like with Anything it's more of. Is it something you guys.

[A]

Yeah. What do you think about that, Jason?

[D]

Yeah, my personal take is that I think that makes a lot of sense that it. That the target year should end on the end, at the end of the grand, because it's the super bowl, it's the end of the World Series, it's the. The season is. Is over.

[C]

And was that the intention initially, before these two big shoots kind of got onto the calendar, was that always the intention?

[D]

Also, remember, the grand used to be a lot later in August too.

[A]

Yes, it was.

[D]

You know what I mean? So that, therefore that wasn't in, you know, then usually it wasn't one much of. Maybe one weekend before Labor Day and that.

[A]

Yeah, I think it was because it always ended like the 20th, 22nd, 23rd.

[C]

Yeah, it would be right towards the end anyway. So it feels like the intention was the grand ends it, but with moving it back a little bit and then a couple of shoots wanting to get on while people were out in the area, in the Midwest, for example, you know, it just morphed into it not being in the end, but not intentionally. That's what it feels like, you know.

[D]

And then the change was made. And it's been several years that I think it did it switched to January 1st for like two years, or was it. No, like that. It. It had changed, but it hadn't changed behind the grand. It had changed later, later in the year.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And I think I. And I'm not 100% sure, but I think that is. I think that would be covered in the bylaws. And keep in mind too, something about the executive committee versus the full board of directors. The executive committee. Any changes to the actual bylaws of the ATA is a very formal, drawn out process that has to go before the full board of directors and then gets tabled for a year. So it's not something that can just happen for the next target year. Whereas a lot of the rules, rule changes can be made a lot quicker than any changes to the bylaws. And don't hold me to that. It might, may or may not be in a bylaw situation.

[C]

Sounds right.

[B]

Yeah. The only, the only like actual argument that I ever heard was from a calendar perspective, the day is always the same. September 1st.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Where, you know, if the grand. If the last day of the grand, well, then you're, you know, kind of moving that end date based on whatever day the grand ends from a, you know, date on the calendar standpoint, that's the only thing I've ever heard. But. But I'm sure there's a way to write that out of the bylaw. If it was something that would make sense. I guess the question that I want to ask everyone here today is do you personally think that if the grand ended it, do you think that Ohio or the Heartland would suffer from that decision or do you think they would thrive because now they're the first shoot of the year. I mean, what would, what would your personal opinion.

[A]

I don't think it's going to change. I don't think it'll change. I think the same people are still going to go to the same shoots.

[D]

But if a couple things, if you make a change like that, I mean, and it will cycle out, but if you make a change to the target year, regardless of if you say having a specific date is an issue too, to say the last day of the grand, well, you got to play your what ifs and hopefully this never. These, these are never doomsday type never happen. But what if the, the grand gets cancelled? What if we get into like say the COVID year and we couldn't go to Missouri and there was no grand then?

[C]

Yeah, you'd have to write in some stipulations.

[D]

Right, right. But that being said, what if the year if okay, we say, okay, we're going to change it to the last day of the grand next year. Well, then the Target Cardinal and the Heartland. You're going to miss those shoots in an entire target year. Now everybody's going to miss it, but that shoot's not going to exist and it'll cycle over. We went through this with the, with the central zone shoot. It's a constant battle with the central zone because we don't. We're out of weekends first off through the summer. There's just not enough weekends through the with good weather months to host all the shoots that we want to host. But the central zone shoot is traditionally always right before the Grant. Now it used to not be so bad because grand started later, but now it's literally the, you know, the weekend before also the weekend, same weekend as the AIM Grant. And it's not only like we're in the central zone and all of our youth shooters are going to the AIM grand in Sparta instead of the Central zone. But we wanted, the consensus is that we want to change it, but we can't come to a majority decision of what the right answer is. Labor Day was in play. The two weeks, second week of September was in play. Ultimately we decided this year we're going to leave it again at the last weekend in July. But when we did that, if we go to September, we have to throw a shoot in in July and then throw the shoot again in September because we have to have a central zone shoot during the target year. So you can't, you can't go July and then July 24 and then, you know, go to September of 25. You got.

[B]

That makes sense.

[D]

You got to double them up. But same way if we.

[B]

So we're doing two weeks at the heartland grand this year is what you're telling me.

[D]

That could be.

[B]

Dale, get my camping spot ready. Get the chicken hot, baby. I'm coming.

[C]

Well, you were asking all of us, you know, would it affects the shoots. I'm just saying if it wasn't included, would you still go to the Heartland? That's the question, Zach. If it's not, he would absolutely.

[B]

I love Dale. I'm not missing the heartland.

[A]

You're not gonna miss. I don't think it's good to miss th. Those shoots when, when they're. It's such well attended and great shoots.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I just, I'm just looking at it as the, the majority of the shooters are wanting to know, like, why is it you can pack all these other targets in after the grand's over and it. It's not, you know, so.

[D]

Yeah, but it's. And obviously we talk a lot about the grand and the grand is, is the, is the epitome. I mean, it is the. It's the big, big deal. But Rick, you can go to your numbers and I don't have that number. I should have that number. And if I did on top of my head, I'd forget it. But if you look at all the shooters in the ata that shoot ata targets, not a big percentage go to the grand. You know, that September 1st. While we think the grand should be the end of the year for everybody that's at the grand. You know, there's a lot of. Lot of clubs and a lot of shooters all across, really all across the world, but definitely all across the country and all across Canada that, that they don't go to the grand, but that that target year wouldn't have any effect on them if it's into the end of the grand and, and there's a lot of shooters that don't chase. You know, there might be a full page of shooters on the all American, American teams, but there's a lot of shooters out there that shoot ata targets that are going to a two trap club. In the middle of middle of nowhere. And that's. Those. They're paying the same ATA fees and they're ATA members. Just like. Just like.

[B]

And we need those people. We love those people. People. I think that the goal needs to be how do we get those people to step out and go to the pinnacle of shooting? How do they. How do we draw them in somehow, some way, and, and give them some type of incentive to say, why am I not going to the Grand? I mean, if. If, you know, you're an avid football fan and you're like, oh, I can go to the super bowl for free, like, I could just show up and just. I don't need to. Like, I would just think there's got to be something around, like, folks, what would it take to get you to the ground? Like, what. Why are you going here, here, here? And then missing the world championships. I mean, the big shoot. And, and we definitely have the capacity to facilitate them. I mean, you guys have the greatest facility in the world. I mean, it is. It is a fantastic facility at Sparta. It was built for one thing, and it was a mega trap shoot. And, and, and. And I love that about it. I mean, it's a. It's a laser perfect environment to. To kill clay pigeons. But, I mean, I, I never understood why. And I know there's the, the stigma. You know, some people that, you know, wanted it in Ohio and then that, like, would never come over. And, you know, there's. I've heard all of that stories and stuff, but my. If you're listening and you're one of these people that isn't happy that it's in Sparta, Illinois, after 20. After 20 years, and you're not supporting the Grand, I would ask you to look at yourself in the mirror and say, well, how about all the people that went to Ohio or went to all these other places for years and years and years and years, from California, from Oregon, from Washington, from. That had to fly so hard and had to travel and had to move, you know, I, I loved Van Daly. I thought it was a fantastic thing. But I think people should be revved up about the grand and they should be putting it on their calendar and going and excited about it. And if, if that's.

[A]

I think. Listen, I want to know why. I think for next year, having the back fence shootout on Sunday, they'll get people there.

[C]

Well, I, I think. I think there are a lot of great things that the ATA could do where they could get out and talk about it, and all those things move the Needle, you know, so it's, it's.

[B]

It'S a slow process and we're talking about momentum. I mean, if, if one good idea at all gets implemented, thought about or changed, we've made progress and we've moved the needle and momentum breeds that. Right. Like, so you have that and you say, okay, well, now we keep doing, you know, we're definitely not going to implement all this crap in one year or whatever. That's not the purpose of today's show. Today's show is to, is to have, is to have an open forum and talk about ideas and thoughts and get people thinking about this. I hope next week, after they listen to this episode, trap shooters are calling each other and saying, well, what do you think about this? And what, what could we do? And why would we want to go to the Grand? And, and, you know, maybe writing a letter to your delegate or writing, well.

[A]

That'S what they'll do. That's, that's the biggest thing at some.

[B]

Level saying, you know, know, we're the customers. This is what we're looking for. This is, and it might just be a bunch of noise at some level, but at least we're trying, you know, we're, we're moving, moving the ball forward as we like.

[C]

I think, I think what this post really showed, Jason, and you, you know, you went through it too, and saw it like, these people care about the ata. They care about trap shooting. They care enough to comment and kind of give their ideas and, hey, what if we did this? And this is what I think, you know, So I don't think that's ever been our problem in, in the ATA or a challenge in the eta. Like, the member base cares because they love the sport so much. Right. It's just, it's difficult. We're a tanker ship. We are not a speedboat. We are this big thing where it's like, when we make a move, you may not see that move right away because we're turning, but we're turning slow. You know, like, that's just how it works with this type of organization. But we just have a big organization that we can leverage. And I think reason people get so passionate about this because, like, they love trap shooting and they love the ata and they're like, well, what if we did this? And why aren't there more people at the Grand American? And why aren't. You know, but it really, I think at the core, it's coming from a good place, you know? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, in my heart and soul, I'm an ATA life member. And I love the ata and I love the fact that. That I have a place that I can go shoot clay pigeons in this great country that we live in and shoot against some great people. And I think that that is the. The resounding, you know, horn that we're. We're screaming and. And then it's just like, okay, what else could we do? How. How much better could we get? I mean, what. What's the opportunity of the future in the world? And. And what could happen if all of these AIM programs and all these things actually bring back all the shooters that want to come back now that in their 40s or 50s that were shooting it 20 years ago? Because, I mean, relatively. We talked about this a lot in other Shoot. Other episodes. There hasn't been a lot of sample size of, like, the junior programs. Because this is. I mean, 20 years ago, they didn't. They were. They were a brand new thing. Right. So we're still seeing the people that are marching in now in their 40s that are just starting to get back to the point to where they have the income to actually do the sport.

[D]

True.

[C]

Yeah. No, agreed. Yeah. So, Jason, we really appreciate you taking the time and coming on and diving into these things with us. We wanted to try to, you know, hit as much of these with you because this is a perspective we don't get all the time, which is, you know, from that process side, the inner working side. But, yeah, so really appreciate you coming on and spending. Spending the time. This was, I mean, for me, it was very, you know, illuminating and eye opening just to kind of talk through some of these things. And I really feel like, at least from our listeners. Right. Because they're. They're the passionate ones about trap shooting. Just to hear things like, yes, that comes up in every meeting. Yes, that's on our radar. We're trying to solve that problem. I think that goes, you know, 10,000 leaps and bounds. Yeah, yeah. Leaps and bounds.

[D]

Yeah. Well done. If nothing else, I mean, the takeaway that I hope everybody. Everybody hears is if you have. Your ideas are good, I want to hear your ideas. Everybody on the ec, talk to your delegate, talk to the guys on the ec. Don't hesitate to share your ideas. And sometimes maybe things that we haven't thought about, you never know. But know that everybody on the ECA know that you're delegates, and I know all the delegates in the central zone and can speak for all of them to know that their intentions are. Their intentions are solid. I mean, they. That's they're your delegate because they love the game and they love the people in the game and they want to try to make a difference. So. And been a pleasure. John, if you ever need, if you're. If your talent, you know, Ricky and Zach ever calling sick, you need to fill in hosts or anything.

[C]

Because I, I got it off.

[A]

Hey, Jason. Hey, this. Let me just say this real quick, Jason. Just for that, we're going to have your number listed to below for everybody to contact you.

[C]

Yeah, call Jason.

[A]

That's complicated. We really appreciate it and it was great. And it was an honor for you to be on here, you know, for us to have you on here. And, you know, we got a lot of insight and we, you know, we might have to have you come back on and we can go over some more stuff too, you know.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Hey, and also, I think, and, and I, I'll speak for the guys here a little bit. Open invitation to anyone on the EC and of course, our executive director to come on and spread the word about trap shooting or what's going on with the ETA or what you guys want to do on the Grand American. You guys have a golden ticket to come on on this show at any time and talk about what's going on.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Love to have you guys back on here because we want to spread the word about what you're doing and, and get the word out about, you know, what changes are happening and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, open door policy for everybody to come on and talk about it from the ata.

[D]

That's perfect. I. I'll keep listening to you guys on the truck, everyone. I'm in the truck too, so.

[B]

Yeah, we appreciate that.

[C]

I'm just by pretty good.

[B]

I'm just glad we're not having more car accidents, people falling asleep, you know, it's good. We're. We're doing.

[D]

We're doing.

[B]

That's why we got to keep zinging every once in a while. Otherwise they start hitting them Rumbler strips.

[C]

You know, but we're keeping them.

[B]

We're keeping them awake. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jason.

[C]

Thanks, Jason.

[D]

Appreciate it. Absolutely. Sa.