Episode 033: Hold points and Eye Positions

Summary

Trap Talk From The Back Fence Episode 033: Hold Points and Eye Positions Release Date: June 23, 2023

In Episode 033 of "Trap Talk From The Back Fence," hosts Zach Danini and Richard Marshall Jr. (Ricky) delve deep into the nuances of hold points and eye positions in trapshooting. Recorded live from Ohio, this episode offers a blend of personal experiences, technical insights, and listener engagement, making it invaluable for both novice and seasoned trapshooters.

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1. Welcome and Setting the Stage

The episode kicks off with Zach and Ricky greeting listeners and briefly mentioning their recent participation in state shoots. They emphasize the importance of social interaction in trapshooting events and set the tone for an in-depth discussion on eye positions and hold points.

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2. Personal Experiences at State Shoots

Ricky shares his recent experiences at the Pennsylvania (PA) state shoot, highlighting his successes and the dynamic nature of different shooting locations.

• Ricky on PA State Shoot Performance (03:16):
  "I ended up winning... the overall by one over Joey Turnigo."

• Discussion on Transitioning to Ohio Shoots (04:24):
  The hosts discuss the differences between the PA and Ohio shoots, noting the variety in gameplay and the competitive atmosphere expected in Ohio.

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3. Deep Dive into Eye Positions

The core of the episode revolves around the critical role of eye positions in trapshooting. Zach introduces the topic by referencing listener questions, prompting a detailed exploration of the subject.

• Ricky's Technique (05:19):
  "I look right through those beads and let my eyes get out to the edge of the trap house."

• Richard on Adjusting Eye Positions Based on Distance (06:04):
  "The closer you get, the wider the eyes; the farther away, the tighter the eyes are going to be."

Key Points Discussed:

• Through the Beads vs. Above the Gun:
  Ricky prefers looking through the beads using a soft focus to track the target, minimizing gun movement and flinching. In contrast, Richard tends to look slightly above the beads, adjusting based on lighting and target speed.

• Impact of Target Distance:
  At closer distances (e.g., 16 yards), a more focused eye position tightens the shooter's field of vision, reducing the chances of being blindsided by faster targets.

• Adjusting for Different Shooting Modes:
  Richard explains how eye positions vary between singles, doubles, and handicap shooting, emphasizing the necessity to adapt based on the game's demands.

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4. Listener Questions and Technical Advice

The hosts address several listener-submitted questions, providing expert advice and practical solutions.

• Sighting Issues with Fixed Rib Guns (22:12):
  Dan from Australia reports issues with his new stock causing his head to roll off the comb after the first shot. Ricky suggests that Dan might have too much roll on the comb and recommends adjusting the stock length to prevent the gun from sliding out of position.

• Importance of Proper Coaching (25:34):
  Richard underscores the value of having experienced coaches observe and provide feedback, especially when shooters encounter slumps or technical difficulties.
  "Having someone watch you is very valuable."

• Use of Technology for Self-Assessment (26:46):
  Ricky mentions leveraging modern technology, like smartphone video, to analyze shooting techniques.
  "She'll video me and then I'll analyze the video."

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5. Upcoming Episodes and Community Engagement

Zach and Ricky share their plans for future episodes, including potential interviews with renowned shooters like Gary Benetti, Dave Kelly, and Paul Chaplo. They express gratitude towards their growing listener base and encourage continued engagement through questions and feedback.

• Anticipation of High-Profile Guests (32:09):
  "We've got some great people ahead of us... Ron Alcara," and others are in the pipeline.

• Community Feedback (33:36):
  "We've got a lot of people coming up and saying they love the show."

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6. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with reflections on the importance of consistent mental preparation and refining shooting techniques through regular discussions and practice. The hosts reiterate their commitment to helping shooters improve and enjoy the sport more fully.

• Richard on Continuous Learning (35:06):
  "Every week we do this and talk about this, we're just always thinking about it, and it's refining our process a little bit more."

• Encouragement to Practice (20:19):
  "Everyone should start at that position."

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Notable Quotes

• Ricky on Soft Focus Technique (05:19):
  "I look right through those beads and let my eyes get out to the edge of the trap house."

• Richard on Eye Positioning (07:50):
  "With our comb to where we're looking on a ramp. Now, there are some shooters that have had some success with higher, but if you haven't at least tried it that way, I think everyone should start at that position."

• Ricky on Trigger Control (13:14):
  "I'm a guy that I trigger control. I shoot when I'm on the target... Bang."

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Key Takeaways

1. Eye Positioning is Crucial:
   Proper eye placement can significantly impact shooting accuracy and consistency. Whether looking through the beads or slightly above, shooters must find a balance that suits their style and the specific demands of the shoot.

2. Adapt Techniques Based on Distance and Game Type:
   Adjusting eye positions and hold points based on the distance to the trap house and whether shooting singles, doubles, or handicap can enhance performance.

3. Seek Expert Feedback:
   Engaging with experienced coaches and utilizing technology for self-assessment can help shooters identify and rectify technical flaws.

4. Community and Continuous Learning:
   The trapshooting community is growing, with opportunities for learning and engagement through podcasts, live events, and personal interactions.

5. Consistency and Practice Lead to Improvement:
   Regular practice and mental preparation, reinforced by discussions and feedback, are key to refining shooting techniques and achieving better results.

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Conclusion

Episode 033 of "Trap Talk From The Back Fence" offers a comprehensive exploration of hold points and eye positions, enriched by the hosts' personal insights and expert advice. Whether you're looking to fine-tune your technique or gain a deeper understanding of the mechanics behind successful trapshooting, this episode provides valuable guidance and motivation. Be sure to tune in, submit your questions, and join Zach and Ricky on their journey to elevate the trapshooting community.

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Stay Connected:

• Follow Zach Danini & Ricky on their social media pages.
• Subscribe to the podcast on your preferred platform to never miss an episode.
• Visit their website for more resources and information.

Transcript

[Zach Danini]

Don't forget to follow us on our social media pages like share and subscribe this podcast is sponsored by the following Remington Made with pride in the USA Iconic American Impact Winning Custom gun stocks. Head on down for your custom fitting. Remember Winners shoot Winning Shot Tracker like having a coach on your barrel. For more info go to takeaim tech.com Life is too short to miss. RM Shooting Clinics helping shooters from coast to coast. Have Ricky take your game to the next level. Zach Danini at Northwestern Mutual Trusted advice from someone you know we believe in putting people first. Other supporters for TRAP Talk the Nevada State Trap Shooting association don't miss their 75th annual state shoot this October in Las Vegas. The NSTA puts on some great shoots and they're going big for this year's state. Go to nvtrap.com to check out their program and all other shoots as well. The Utah State Trap Shooting association would.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Like to invite you to the 109th annual state shoot this June 21st to.

[Zach Danini]

The 25th at the Bernal Rod and Gun Club.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Vernal holds the Western grand among other.

[Zach Danini]

Great shoots and throws a world class target RV camping and fun side events make this a state shoot that you don't want to miss.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

More [e-mail] welcome to another episode of Trap Talk. Today we are recording live from Ohio. I've got my co host Richard Marshall Jr. Here and myself Zach, Nana. Welcome to the show Rick.

[Ricky]

Oh thank you.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Cheers.

[Ricky]

Cheers.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Cheers. So we just got here yesterday for me and when did you get in Rick?

[Ricky]

I pulled in Sunday night from Pennsylvania.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

State shoot and I got to shoot my first time here today. No shot curtain, no like it. But today we had some more email questions come in. We wanted to focus on talking a little bit about eye positions. I think where you look around the gun and what sight picture you see is really important in this game. So we're going to spend a little bit about time on that and on top of that I wanted to ask you know Rick kind of how the last shoot went. I didn't do any shooting but Rick you went to to pa so tell listeners how it was a interesting shoot.

[Ricky]

Sporty targets to say the least but had a good time. Always enjoy going to pa. That's my wife's you know past home state where Jody's from and used to shoot but I won non resident handicap champion the first day with a 93 so a little little sporty and then won a few other trophies and then I ended up winning. I think I was tied for Runner up in the singles, tied for basically, runner up in the doubles. And then I got third in the handicap on Sunday with a 95. And I won the all around with the 392 and I won the overall by one over Joey Turnigo.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

So I was, you know, happy with that. But great shoot. I enjoy shooting over there. And we headed over here and. And I'll start shooting tomorrow. So today's just been Tyler shots of practice and just getting ready. Got signed up and, you know, paid with a kidney to shoot here, you know.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah, you gotta get done.

[Ricky]

But they like the options here in Ohio. So.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah, I tell you. But just from, you know, we'll get back to pa, but just to look at the people playing, it looks like a lot of people play the options. Here they come and they play more of the money. And I think that that's something that's nice to see because a lot of places you go, people don't play the Lewis, they don't play the options. And it's like, you know, it makes it more fun when you can shoot a score and get paid for it enough that it makes it worth your while and makes a fun trip for sure.

[Ricky]

But yeah, no, absolutely, PA was good, options were good. You know, there was quite a bit of money over there considering. And then over here, you know, should be a good shoot. Looks like the attendance is going to.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Be pretty good now with PA who won in stage, you know, as far.

[Ricky]

As the overall instate all around an overall where our buddy Chris Vindel.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Okay.

[Ricky]

Which we're trying to get Chris on the show. He is here. So we might have to do a live podcast, kind of like what we're doing now. Get Chris, because Chris is kind of shy and he's busy.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

He's always really busy and we're trying to. To tie him down. Unfortunately, right now during the. The thick of shooting season, a lot of the top shooters that we're interviewing, they're at these shoots. So without WI fi and without a nice place, luckily we're using Ricky's trailer right now. So we were in the fifth wheel and we got the. The Heaven Hill out. But. But that being said, next week we've got some people lined up to. To go back to traditional style. We're going to, but we figure take the time while we can and answer these questions. So, Rick, my first question is, is where we're looking around the gun. I know you said, you know, you look through the gun in the past to me, but explain to our listeners what that means. And does it change between singles and doubles and handicap?

[Ricky]

Well, I don't really look through the guns. What I do is I look through the beads.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Okay.

[Ricky]

Okay. So beads are stacked, you know, figure eight. And I line up everything, and I look right through those beads and let my eyes get out to the. The edge of the trap house. And that's where I use a soft focus right there. And as soon as the target comes out, my eyes immediately lock. And then the gun moves.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I see.

[Ricky]

Now, some people will look, you know, set the gun on the corner just to say. Yeah. And then they let their eyes get up higher.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

And they'll look way out in the distance. Now, I've always been in with. Okay, if you do. And it is true, you look out at a distance and then look back, everything's clear.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

But now we're shooting a target that's going away.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Correct.

[Ricky]

So when you have a target that's going away from you and you're looking at a distance, and you go to look back, it's a blur. And then it's kind of like. It's almost like you're blinking multiple times. Oh, then it clears up. Correct. And that's where I think some people get their eyes too far out. So when they. They look back at that target and it's moving away, they get the. And they flinch.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Correct. Correct.

[Ricky]

So that's why I always like to see people just say, okay, let's look here. Target goes up. Oh, there it is. And then lock on and go correct. Or you could get your eyes out, you know, maybe 10, 15, 20ft in front of the house. Then you're fine.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah. So. So I, you know, and there's a lot of different thoughts. I mean, I've heard when I was a kid growing up, well, you want to put your eyes as far out as you can look out for that target, and then they're going to suck back to it. You know, I've kind of heard that a lot of handicap shooters told me that. And then, you know what I realized? In especially the closer games where I'm at 16 yards, the farther out I looked, the more the angles would burn me. Like, I'd get that hard left, and I get that hard right. And it almost feel like the target's coming out so fast because it's out of your vision. The way I explain it is, is if you were looking through, like a toilet paper roll or you were looking through a scope on a rifle. If you're zoomed in in that position, and A deer is running through. You're not going to be able to see it as well as if you zoom out your eyes and so that you could see that angle and see if it's going this way or that way. So, you know, for me, at 16 yard line, I'm trying to look at the circumference of the area of the target. So, you know, you have your hard left, your hard right, that V, you know, and all of that area where that target could leave. And on three, you've got obviously a nice V like that.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I want to cover. Soft focus at the trap house.

[Ricky]

Yes.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

All the way across the top of that trap house. As wide as I can go to the right and as wide as I can go to the left. Roughly.

[Ricky]

But not in the trap.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Out in.

[Ricky]

You don't need to go. Some people, and I've heard this, you know, have called me or at a clinic. They're like, why can't I let my eyes expand? Well, almost like we're shooting bunker.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

I said, no, you want to be that trap house just a little bit.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

With, you know, each side.

[Ricky]

So here. And then add a little. Okay. That way. Target. Oh, there it is. You just go to that target.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yes. And so for me, unlike you, you say, look through the beads. Y. I'm looking a little bit above the beads.

[Ricky]

That's what I say.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

You look over, I look over. So what I'm trying to do is I mount the gun, I get the beads, and then I probably look anywhere from a quarter inch to an inch above those beads, depending on the light. So if the light's really, really low, I find myself looking more through the beads like Ricky does.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

If the light's really, really high, I look a little bit more above. The other thing that I think I'm changing is target speed. So if a target's really flashing or scaring me out of the house, I'll generally get my eyes a little bit higher than if the targets are slow enough that I can catch them off the lip. If I can catch them off the lip, I want my eyes to be down there to catch that rock as soon as I can. But on that flashing bird, I feel as if I can get my head, my eyes up a little bit. It's not going to make me want to jab that gun. And it's going to make it. It's going to make it. Just kind of see the bird and then follow from behind.

[Ricky]

Yes.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

That's how I feel.

[Ricky]

But in that today you shot today the double yes. Did you shoot the handicap, too, in singles?

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I did singles handicap.

[Ricky]

And so how'd the singles go?

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Singles had a 99.

[Ricky]

Okay.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Handicap wasn't so good. I had an 86, but I kind of figured out the last box. I broke a 24. And I.

[Ricky]

You didn't call me.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I need RM on that one.

[Ricky]

So doubles, though, you. You had a 197 correct. So. And shooting doubles, it was. It was kind of low light.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yep.

[Ricky]

Where was your look at for there?

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

So I always think the closer I get to the trap house, 16 yards versus 27, the. The more high I could look above the gun because the relative distance change. So I'm up there, I can look one inch above the gun, and by looking above the gun, I can get that gun out of my eye so that I don't have any, like, stop, move, or flinch move. I feel like when I get my eyes too low on a target that's going up at 16 yards, whether it's a double or. Or a single.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

If I'm too low, I feel like it beats me. And I throw the gun over the top, and then I stop the gun and shoot behind. So I generally keep my eyes about an inch above the gun in doubles, but in doubles especially, I get tighter. So instead of being really, really wide where I'm looking for all these angles, I'm looking. I'm really marking the spot where it's coming out.

[Ricky]

Yes. And that's where you want to do for doubles. You want to mark the spot on the house, mark the spot on a tree, wherever it is, each target your first bird.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I would think my eyes are tightest around the gun in doubles because I'm. I know that that gun target's coming right to my eyes.

[Ricky]

And.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And so I'm looking, and all I'm looking for is slight angle variation. Is it going a little bit left?

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Is it going a little right? Is it going up?

[Ricky]

So in handicap today, where were your eyes at?

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Well, my eyes were raining. It was raining above the gun.

[Ricky]

But what.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

What I think threw me off a little bit. And this is my own personal opinion on it. These houses here in Ohio are a lot bigger. And I was holding on my same corners of the house like I normally do. And when I was coming back for the straightaway on one to five, I was shorting it because there was a lot more.

[Ricky]

There was your movement, your move.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

You weren't.

[Ricky]

You weren't locked down on that target fast enough to go, oh, okay.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

All the way over.

[Ricky]

Right.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

All the Way over. Because on those bigger houses, I feel like that. Right. Takes a little bit longer to get out because it's coming through. And on that, know, left hand, straight away on five, you know, I was basically shooting the back side of it every time consistently. Last box, I dropped my hold points down and in, you know, like, it. Like the imagining the box was, you know, normal size. I put my hold points where the box would be if the houses were smaller. And then everything seemed to correct itself in a good position. But above the gun. Above, above the gun, still see the target, and my eyes lock onto it and then I. Then I run the gun through.

[Ricky]

So. And that's part, you know, Zach shoots a little bit different than I do. You know, I'm on the house for everything. My eyes are. I keep my eyes the same. Now I do do that doubles. Of course, you're. You're staring more at one focal point. You know, you narrow everything up on doubles for your first shot.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And then, and then once we break the first shot in doubles, like, I'm breaking it, but as soon as I break it, my eyes kick over to the other target.

[Ricky]

I'm.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

So I'm breaking and looking. And I think where a lot of people get confused is they're breaking and then they're moving the gun towards that other target without looking at it. And if you start moving that gun to that other target, you're just with the eye with the gun, you're carrying it over, and you're kind of like searching for it. And I've seen people go up, down over, you know, just kind of looking like they're looking through a straw. And it doesn't give you that quick in between shot. I think you break the first shot, get your eyes on the second shot, and then your body's going to put the gun exactly where it needs to be onto that second shot quickly.

[Ricky]

Yes.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And most of the top double shooters, I think they're shooting them quick in between shots.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And they're getting their eyes on that second. Their second shot.

[Ricky]

And let's. Let's step back here on shooting quick. So I'm a guy that I trigger control. I shoot when I'm on the target. I don't. It's not bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Oh, oh, there it is. Bang.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yes.

[Ricky]

So now. And that's part of the deal of shifting your eyes to the target, going from the first target, the second target, you shift your eyes.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Oh, there it is.

[Ricky]

And then you go, like you were saying, people. And. And I Have a lot of students that have done this is they shoot the first one and then the guns move it and their eyes will go to the gun. Correct. Everything slows down.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Correct.

[Ricky]

Miss a lot of second targets. So you always want to shift your shoot, shift your eyes over. I had 20 years ago teaching a class, and a guy said, no, you. You don't do that. So he actually had a video camera, the old. On the front, 8 millimeter in. In his hand. And he was videoing me. This is prior to the. The iPhones and all that. And he. He got down and he videoed my eyes as I was shooting.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And they go.

[Ricky]

And he goes. After the first shot, it was boom. And my eyes automatically. As soon as the boom, my eyes shifted and he goes, ah. And that's what it took for him to light off the light bulb.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And I think. I think that's the big problem. A lot of people shooting doubles, they're not doing that. They're shooting and they're going over there like, okay, I gotta go get there. And they're worried about not getting in that target.

[Ricky]

And.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And by worrying about it and moving, it's actually taking them more time than recognizing and making a clean. One good clean shot is. Is what you get in that scenario. You know, with another question that came in was, you know, sight picture apparatus, which I think we're both the same on that. I mean, we're both figure eight stacked perfectly. But. But, you know, the question was, well, could you shoot off of a ramp or, you know, could you shoot. Is it okay if I've got a fixed rib gun and I don't have an adjustable rib and it's shooting flat, in my opinion. Can I jack the comb up and shoot off the tip of the gun? I mean, what are your thoughts on that, Rick, in your.

[Ricky]

So shooting off the end of the gun? I'm not a fan. I. I don't. I just had a gentleman that you met down at actually fuel keep that. He come down and he had a sight picture. He was this far off the gun. Off the gun. Yeah. I got him down. He's like, oh. I said, the way your. Your gun set up right now with a figure eight is going to shoot 9010. Now you add that in there, you're 130, 40, whatever.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

You know, depends on how you're moving to the target. Excuse me. I said, you want to be close to that gun.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Well, I think reference point is important. That's. But. But what I've always seen gets a problem. Let's just say because I shot a Perazzi TM1 for a while, I shot Brownings that were flat rib guns. Now we're on to the good stuff, Kragoffs. But that being said, when I was mounted with the rib, if I got too much space and I got too high, I would look down into the distance between the center bead and the middle beat. So, like, what I always felt it was, it turned into a ramp, kind of like an airplane was going to take off. And then when I went to a target, I would look for that space in between those two beads, and my eyes would get caught off. So for me to be able to not allow that gun to stop on a move I need to look through, I really need a nice, clean picture where my eyes are not too high above the gun, but they're not too far below. And to speak to the other side of that point. If you get too far below the gun, then I feel like my left eye takes over.

[Ricky]

Yes.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Because if I start putting that gun barrel up in my eyeball to where I can't see, this eye over here is going to say, hey, I can't see nothing. So when I go left, I start taking over. So. And. And that was something I just dealt. I talked with Gunner Sesnick the other day on the phone, and he was like, manner, but. Yeah. And he's like, I'm missing on the left. And I'm like, gunner, have you checked your gun? I mean, you said you lost some weight and all this. That.

[Ricky]

Yeah, he lost the weight since.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah, yeah, since Arizona. So.

[Ricky]

So.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

So he's skinny boy, not like us. So that means. Hey, cheers.

[Ricky]

But.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

But that being said, you get to a point where you're behind that gun and that gun's blocking your eye.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

This eye is going to take over. So you have to, in my opinion, at least get to a point to where the pupil of your right eye is sitting just above the rib at.

[Ricky]

Somewhere you want everything to. Where both eyes are just. You can see.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Bingo.

[Ricky]

And it's figure eight.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

No problem.

[Ricky]

And. And if it's a little bit in there, that's fine. Everybody's different. You know, when I teach everybody, it is. Okay. I'm gonna work with your style. Oh, you like to be. Okay, well, let's see what this does. How are you breaking the target? Are you hitting it hard? Are you chipping whatnot? And then we go from there. So everybody's different. That's the one thing that differs from me teaching than some is I have A ride. Variety.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yes.

[Ricky]

I take your ability and work with it.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yes.

[Ricky]

So, you know, and that, and that's the thing. And all these questions are. Good question. We've been saying this all along. Send in stuff because this is our, our shooting time where we are going to. I, I'm. I can't guarantee it because I might have to hog tie Chris Mendel, but we, we might get him in. And, you know, I don't think this is, is wide enough for all three of us. I need another, another camera. So I'll be on one computer and Zach and Chris can be on another or vice versa. But, you know, we, we love all these questions.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And yeah, this series that we've gone on for the last three episodes were on the road. I mean, it was just kind of like, hey, let's try this. But then as soon as we did it, you guys started sending more questions based on what we were talking about. And so we're just kind of following through this rabbit hole right now. And, and I really like it because. Oh, pill. We got the killer.

[Ricky]

My traveling dog. A lot of people that know me. No, Little Rosie. We call her Piddle, but she's in here with, with Zach and I. But she's been traveling the road from Utah to home, and then Pennsylvania, now Ohio and then home for a little bit. And then we on the Wisconsin state shooting in Iowa.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah, you got to have a good road dog with you.

[Ricky]

That's right.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

She's.

[Ricky]

She's a guard dog.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

So. So I think, you know, we've talked a little bit about over the gun versus, you know, around the gun, soft focus. I think both of us are in the agreement that soft focus is the area where we like to be. I can't say that for everyone that shoots, but I feel like soft focus is a good place to start because I can see the angle and then I can zoom to it with my eyes.

[Ricky]

Absolutely.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

You know, the other thing I would add to that is my soft focus does require a little bit more Zoom at 27 than 16, because I've got to make up the distance to get to that trap house. But not a lot. I mean, I. But I do feel like my eyes are straining a little bit more to get them to the trap House. At 27.

[Ricky]

You don't need to be as wide like you do in single. The angles are smaller because you're less angle.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

So looking at a smaller area because the angle shrink. But really you're just matching whatever area. The closer you get, the wider the eyes, the farther Away you get, the tighter the eyes are going to be. But it's all in, in relative perspective.

[Ricky]

Well, it's less gun movement. Your pattern opens up just a little bit using that full choke as we use for the 27. And, you know, my coach and mentor is Frank Hoppy. You know, he's passed away now about 10 years. I think it's been already 11 years maybe. But, you know, Frank always said we shouldn't call this handicap because your angles are less, you're moving the gun less. So you automatically got your head that, oh, it's a hand again. And it's really not it. It, you know, shoot. Enjoy it. Work at it, though. That's the problem. You know, I, I did a little, few little lessons here today, and a lot of times is people aren't putting in to get out. So that's the one thing you got to do is go practice, work on some stuff. You know, everybody got questions. Send them in. We'll answer them either most likely on here, or we could even send a response back.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yep. And we, we do send responses sometimes, but sometimes the questions and, and I don't dislike them. They're very long, detailed questions, and I feel like they're worth just doing an episode because, you know, it, it's, it's. It's a lot to go over in an email chain. But, you know, we do, we do appreciate it.

[Ricky]

Now, I do have. Let me see here. Give me, give me a second. So I've had some questions from some people from other countries, and it's a long one. Dan Power, he asked. So he listened to our episode. Okay, dance from Australia. But you met Danny.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

He's a good guy.

[Ricky]

He's got a technical question. Okay. He said he's testing a new stock. He was listening to our podcast with Eric Munson, and we're talking about the long links of pole. He said on the new stock, remembering that the Aussies use double guns for everything. Okay. He's noticed that for the first shot, I can stack the bees just fine, but once it fires, it's like my head rolls off the comb a little and I'm looking down the right side of center. The second shot, it's got a pad adjuster, and I adjusted the combination. I've tried swinging the pad adjuster around different ways. I've even tried moving the comb over and toward my cheek to put more cheek pressure on prior. Blah, blah, blah. Then I heard you guys talking about long links, how they may affect it. What do you think? So in Dan's Case I think he might have too much of a roll on the comb.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

It's off of his shoulder.

[Ricky]

Well, it's too much of a roll on the cone. Correct. So when he shoots, his face is sliding possibly. But long links of pole, if it's a short link of hole, you're in tight. And that's what I don't like to see is people like this because when you go to the to shoot, a lot of times this happens, you release tension.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah. So, so, so if the stock gets too short, in my opinion, it could slide out from the position as you're going to a target. And the other thing, if there's too much roll or there's too much cast, I mean we're talking aggressive here. But you too much as you're going to that other target, you're almost coming away. So I really feel it for me, when I'm going to the left hand side in doubles, if I don't have the gun set up properly, my head starts going left and my gun doesn't follow with me. Well, it's keeping, it's keeping everything under your body enough that you're turning with that unit completely.

[Ricky]

Now Dan is a, is not as big as, as me by any means. Yeah. But he's probably not as big as 15 and a quarter. So I'm thinking the stock might be too long for him too on that case. So he might want to shoot because.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

He'S putting it out in the side.

[Ricky]

Well, it could be. Or shoot maybe across or he's getting it in, he's on the backside. So when he shoots, he's dropping, you know. So I'm going to text Dan back on, on Facebook messenger. That's how we respond to each other. It's expensive to text Australia.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah, for sure. But, but here's the other thing. Like there's more than one answer to this question. So a lot of the times, and that's where, you know, I've always gone to Ricky and been like, Ricky, I'm struggling with this, what's going on. And he can look at it. And a lot of times like I've shot225,000 targets, you know, I've got grand slams, I've won some stuff, but I'm learning still. And when I get in a slump where I'm not hitting stuff, you need somebody to look at it and watch you and say, hey, this is what I think and what I see. Because sometimes as shooters we get in our own head, we either think something's.

[Ricky]

Wrong that's not wrong.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Or we don't think something's wrong. That's completely wrong. And we're stubborn and we're not going to change it. We're like, I'm going to stick with this and do it. And, and in that saying, you know, I have a call, Rick, and I say, rick, watch me. What do you think is going on here? And he's like, Zach, you're lifting your head, or Zach, you're coming out of the gun, or Zach, you're moving on the call, or Zach, you've got too much cast. But it's little things that at this stage of the game, I'm probably still not able to catch quickly. And so whether it's Ricky or other great coaches in the country, having someone watch you is very valuable. Now, now, to, to the other side of that, I wouldn't recommend having anyone that shoots watch you if they don't know what to look for, because then you can get in a position where, you know, you're chasing a rabbit hole. That's not necessarily correct.

[Ricky]

Right.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

So I think at some level they have to have some accreditation. They have to be able to say, okay, I've shot and I know what I'm doing now. There are some people that are pretty good coaches that aren't always great shots, but I think it's, it's good if you're going to have somebody that's teaching to be able to also say, hey, I have the athlete. Like, yeah, you know, there's some people that might not shoot good anymore, but they had years and years and years and years and years.

[Ricky]

Oh, yeah, no, definitely. And that's, you know, in my case, you know, I use my wife, you know, Jody, she. That's. That's a great thing about the iPhones, you know, is. Is she'll video me and then I'll analyze the video.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

You know, which I'm. I'm going to be doing a little bit of that with some, some lessons for people afar. That I can't get to. And even some. I've had some students that have taken lessons that got into a little, Little slump.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

And I.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

It happens. It happens.

[Ricky]

And they'll send me a video and I'll kind of analyze it and go from there. So that's what I'm going to do with Dan is I'm going to text him and say, hey, send us a video.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Let's see.

[Ricky]

Let's look at it. And while we're here this week, do it. We can analyze it and then I'll, I'll respond back, but most likely the stock is too long.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ricky]

Is what I'm going to say. If it's fifteen and a quarter, change it. Pad adjusters. You know, you want to have a pad adjuster. You want to put it with some toe out so it defers the recoil away from your face.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Correct. You know, so, so, so in, you know, kind of conclusion, both of us are pretty soft focus, looking where the target is going. Okay. I'm a little bit more above the gun, depending on light situations and that he's through the beads, you know, and then we've interviewed a lot of people, and these are pretty, you know, common traits. You're like, you're either through them or you're above them. Right now there's a few people that are below them. Yeah, but they're holding higher guns. Usually you're holding, you know, your Rich.

[Ricky]

Bullets looking around, where they're looking around.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

The barrel and under the barrel and.

[Ricky]

They'Re, they're having reference point, except for doubles. I got Rich to kind of lower his whole point a little bit.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yes.

[Ricky]

And he starts shooting good.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And if you talk to these people, a lot of them, when they were shooting their best, they were looking above the gun or through the gun and lower. Sometimes you get up high because you just can't, I guess, control the trigger enough and ride that target out. I think as long as you could ride the target out and keep it above your barrel, that's the premier way of shooting. I think it's going to give you the most consistent ability to shoot high targets, low targets, all the variation of target. If you've got a nice, you know, perfect target at a perfect level with zero windows, well, you can get away with holding up a lot higher and, and doing that move. But when you got something like we shot in PA or here, where, you know, there's a little bit of variance in the wind, you know, up, down, moving around.

[Ricky]

Yeah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I think you need to look and hunt the target itself. And more importantly than anything in singles, doubles, and handicap, we're getting our eyes on the bird quickly and. Yes, and, and, and looking at that leading edge no matter what. But. And then also other similarities. Not too far above the gun. Not too far above the gun with, with our, with our comb to where we're looking on a ramp. Now, there are some shooters that have had some success with. With higher. But, you know, that goes to. Why did they design the adjustable rib gun in the first place? So that you could adjust the point of Impact still key. Same site, the same sight picture instead.

[Ricky]

Of the old way. Like, you know, my coaching mentor, Frank Oppie, you know, and, and the, the greats that have shot this game before us, you know, Brit Robinson, you know, Dean Bright, Banas, these guys that would bend barrels to get it to shoot higher. Now. Oh, we just adjust the rib, move the, the comb up.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And that's freaky because I seen some old school. Phil Ross did it. I seen Ross, you know, and he's passed away.

[Ricky]

But in California, I watched Dean Bright at the, at the Kansas State shoot years ago. They used to have their, their gun racks cemented in the ground. And this is, this goes back 20 years. This is, was an A, an ASC 90 Beretta. He shot the first 50 handicap, bro. Break 42. We go to the second 50 and he goes, this ain't shooting high enough. And I go, what are you going to do? He stuck it in the ground, got it underneath that gun rack to a certain point and just pulled up. He notched the rip, pulled up a little bit more. He looked down, he said, it'll be good. He walked out, broke the back 50.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And, and I've seen that, like I.

[Ricky]

Said, but he looks off the end of the same thing.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

If Phil Ross did it, I mean, it just, you know, guys that are shooting those flat rib like 1100s or you know, flat rib BTS or whatever and they just, they, they get in between a bench or get on something, they put the barrel in there, they tweak it and they get it up and it shoots the point of everything.

[Ricky]

Or they shot bags and they would.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Hit, they hit, they hit it. Now we're not into that. We don't recommend break off. Makes the guns where you can get them set the right way.

[Ricky]

That's right.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Bang on them.

[Ricky]

That's right. That's what team Craig off throw staff.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah, I'm just the regular team. They don't like me in that. But that's okay. That's okay. But, but that being said, if you can have it shoot where you want it to shoot well, looking through it, I think that that's a calmer move on the eye and there's not as much distraction. Not saying you can't do it the other way, but if you haven't at least tried it that way, I think everyone should start at that position.

[Ricky]

Yeah. So, so no, it's great. You know, we need, we need some more questions. We, we gotta, we can answer question for hours if we really wanted to.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Keep the questions coming in. We got some good people lined up. I, I know Gary Benetti, a hall of famer, said he was wanting to do an episode.

[Ricky]

Okay.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I know Dave Kelly said he wanted to do an episode with us, which everybody's been talking about that I'm gonna get Paul Chaplo.

[Ricky]

Paul's from England. He's the world DTL champion, which is down the line Trap. Paul comes to Tucson every year or he missed the last couple years I think since, since COVID But you know, Paul's the top detail. He's also on team Kragoff, but for Craig of Germany, 100%.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

So we've got some great people ahead of us. The, the, the biggest thing we're dealing with is some of the, the old time greats. Like another one that said yes was Ron Alcara. You know, he's a back to back clay target champion. The biggest problem I'm having with him is he doesn't have a computer. So we got to figure out how to get the. Keith, we gotta. This is worse than Keith did. All right, so we gotta get, we gotta. He's like, what's a WI Fi? And I'm like, you don't spread it on Toastron. It's, it's, it's the Internet. And he's like, it's a WI fi. And so, so his son, David Alcariza, who's an Olympic bunker shooter, they're both, you know, pigeon shooters, life shooters, elite shooters. These are great guys. But you know, it's, it's coordinating that right now and making sure that everybody is getting this information out because we're getting, you know, great feedback from everyone. We love it. I love walking down the trap line and everyone coming up and saying, man, we love the show. So, you know, we appreciate the love, we appreciate the support. We never thought it would get this big and have as many people supported as they.

[Ricky]

It. It was great in pa. I had a lot of people come up and said they love the episodes, you know, they want, want to hear more, blah, blah, blah.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

And a lot of.

[Ricky]

I had. One guy was walking in, the other guy goes, hey, there's my favorite podcast guy. And I was like. And Jody was with me. She goes, I think he was talking to you. And I go, what? I turned around, he goes, hey Rick. And I was like, hey, what's up? I mean it's great guys. You gotta come up to us, you know, I mean, I'm more easy going than Zach to come up talk. No, I'm just kidding. I don't Want any questions, though, send them in. You know, we'll help you out any way we can.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

I'm just surprised that people haven't got sick of hearing me and you bickering each other all week long. And I'm filler material. I'm still on the spot.

[Ricky]

Listen, I was told at PA by gentlemen. He goes, I don't think Zach's filler material anymore. And I said, what are you talking about? He goes, well, I said, no, Zach always says he's filler material.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Oh, I think you started the filler material.

[Ricky]

And, you know, Zach had a great U.S. open, great Missouri shoot. So, you know, we had a great. Tyler and I had a great vernal shoot. I had a good shoot in PA Tyler struggled. So we're hoping Ohio is going to be good. We start shooting tomorrow. Yeah, you know, my whole squad does. So we're looking to. To have a good time and. And just enjoy seeing everybody here in Ohio.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

You know, I think for me, in doing these shows, interviewing these people, it's kind of a selfish thing now, but I feel like I'm learning and thinking about trap more. And I feel like every week we do this and we talk about this. We're just always thinking about it, and it's refining our process a little bit more.

[Ricky]

Is Beth okay with this?

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Yeah, she likes it.

[Ricky]

We love you, Beth.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

But. But I think. I think just, you know, thinking about trap or getting your mind in the right spot consistently every week, especially, like, we're going to keep doing this in the off season for people to get their mind around. Okay. What they're doing is helping them come into the season a little bit stronger. And we want everyone to shoot better and. Absolutely. And see some improvement because it's so much more fun when everybody's pushing against everybody and. And. And we get a little bit higher. So now, that being said, I think we got everything covered we need to cover tonight. You know, we want to thank our sponsors, obviously, Remington. We want to thank Shot Tracker, RM Shooting Clinic, myself and anyone winning winning Stockworks.

[Ricky]

I mean, makes our stocks winners Shoot.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

Winning, shoot. Winning, baby. So we're rolling. So that being said, we've got a overall to shoot here in Ohio.

[Ricky]

Yep.

[Richard Marshall Jr.]

We've got a little bit of Heaven Hill to drink and we're out of here. So thank you guys for. For listening this Friday.

[Ricky]

Have a good evening.

[Zach Danini]

Thanks for tuning in to Trap Talk.