C (2:30)

So I started as a kid in. In Northern California, and, you know, I just. I loved it. Couldn't get enough of it. Like I said, we had pita up there, a little small town in Northern California. Actually. Bullard has talked to Me about where I grew up. He, he's. He shot there. Little five. Yeah. Five Trap club. And anyway it was, I just, I fell in love with it. It was like. It was addicting. But unfortunately life gets in the way. I went to college and then went on to race for 32 years. And so I really only got to shoot limited. You know, I'd try to get to the grand as much as I could every year just to see old friends but I never shot great because you know, I didn't get to do it a lot. I was so focused on racing and, and all that that I know I really don't have that many targets but last couple years I've been hitting it hard and getting better and enjoying it.

A (3:25)

Yeah, well. And Zach, let, let's back up a little bit. We are in the shooting world as we do. But let's talk a little bit about Robert's racing career because he like I said, he was in it for 32 years and he was a three time champion funny car champion. And then you won 65 wallies which for all the, you know, non racers out there, that's the big trophy from each race you go to that you can win. And, and then also with that you get hats, don't you? Winter circle hats I think it is.

C (4:03)

Oh yeah. Yep.

A (4:04)

You know.

C (4:04)

Yep. So lots, lots of winter circle hats.

A (4:07)

Yeah. So 65 wallies which is third all time. Is that just in funny car or.

C (4:14)

Is that an overall racing in funny car?

A (4:16)

In funny car. So but I've actually been to Robert's old house in yor Belinda, California and he had all them wallies set up in his man cave with those checks that Zach. The checks he got were more than we can make shooting in five years.

B (4:34)

That's like a really, really, really big Martin Lewis.

A (4:37)

Yeah, yeah. Very, very, very big Martin Lewis. And how each check were they half million dollar checks.

C (4:44)

Yeah. Yep.

A (4:46)

Yes.

C (4:47)

Yeah.

B (4:47)

That's awesome.

C (4:48)

There's some pressure there. You know in, in, in 2017 when I won the championship. Came down to the last run of the year, Matt Hagen and I and it was winner take all. And you know that that's a. When you've got a team behind you, you know it's one thing to be out shooting. You miss a target, you know it's just affects you. Right. But when, when you're on a race team, you've got a lot of guys that have prepared a perfect race car for you and the whole team back at the shop in Indianapolis that, that builds all the Parts and everything that we do that adds a little bit to the pressure.

A (5:26)

Well, and speaking of that, so who was your, your crew chief your whole career?

C (5:32)

Mostly Jimmy Proc.

A (5:33)

Jimmy Prock. Yeah.

B (5:34)

Yeah.

A (5:34)

Which is son. Then race took over after you had retired and stuff. But yeah, and I, you know, I'd been to plenty of races. Zach, did you ever get to a race at all?

B (5:44)

I don't think I've never been to one. So, so I, I'm, I'm. I, I didn't know Robert was famous until people told me he was famous. I just, that's Robert. You know, I'm not, not a big race car guy. I said, you know, he could, he's working on his singles, he's getting where he needs to be, but I guess he drives pretty good.

A (6:01)

Well, he, he was at one time the fastest man in a funny car or fastest man of any car at one time, correct?

C (6:09)

Yes. In, in drag racing.

A (6:11)

Yes, in drag racing. Yeah. So. And, and it was something to see. And you know, a good friend of mine, which is a good friend of Robert's, Joey Hill from Easygo. You know, I got them two together and Easygo was a sponsor of, of John Force Racing and, but Joey is from Ohio. So when we'd always go the Ohio State shoot, Robert to come up and shoot with us for a day or two and then have to go race and then we would go up and my, my brother in law, Jody's twin, who God rest his soul, passed away. But he loved racing, he loved watching John Force and loved watching Robert and hanging out and it was always fun. But the pressure, when people talk about pressure and shooting, you know, but when Robert just said that when you got a whole team of. How many is on your team, Robert? Probably 20.

C (6:59)

Yeah, I mean it's eight guys that work on the car and then you have two crew chiefs and then you know, there's, we have, we shared with other teams. John Force usually had four teams, so you kind of all work together and then there's a big shop back in Indianapolis that builds all the parts and chassis and all that kind of stuff. You, you've got a lot of people behind you that are, that are relying on you to get the job done.

A (7:25)

Need you to, to win that check.

C (7:27)

Yes.

A (7:28)

Yeah, I bet.

B (7:29)

I mean that's got to be something for sure. And, and you know, to speak on the matter since I don't know much and I'm sure some of our listeners don't know much, you know, what's the difference between funny Cars and regulars like what, what, what's. What's going on? If you could describe it to people that haven't heard.

C (7:44)

Yeah, okay, so there's. In the, in the professional ranks, there's top fuel dragsters, there's funny cars, and then there's pro stock and pro stock motorcycles. But top fuel and funny car basically run and they're 12,000 plus horsepower and dragsters are a little lighter and they go a little quicker than a funny car. They're long, but a funny car is short and 125 inch wheelbase and they don't want to go straight. You've got to manhandle this thing and get it down the track, keep it in the middle where the best traction is available. And you're going 0 to 100 in less than a second. And then at the eighth mile, which is halfway down, I've gone as fast as 265 miles an hour. And then 339.87 was my fastest speed at the finish line. So it's. It happens in a hurry, but there's a lot goes on in, you know, 3.7 seconds.

B (8:48)

Wow.

A (8:48)

Yeah. It's Zach. Did I ever show you. Did I ever show you the. The video, Zach, that I was at Ohio and. And it was one of Robert' races, I think, in Ohio, wasn't it?

C (8:59)

I think it might have been my last year there.

A (9:00)

Yeah, it was the last year there at Norwalk and I got the opportunity to go on the track with Leslie and walk up behind the car and the team and sit there when he took off from a race. And I can tell you the. Your soul leaves your body not once but twice from the G forces of. It's like standing behind an airplane almost. It's weird. It was just like I'd never, you know, been involved with it, so. But Leslie's like, just breathe. That's all she kept telling me, you know, and I'm like, okay. But it was very interesting and it was just like, whoa. And the concussion you get, you know, from it. So for the listeners out there that if you've never been to a race, go to a race, they're fun.

B (9:46)

The, the drivers.

A (9:48)

That's why Robert's so approachable is from that racing stuff, because you would. Zach, you would have loved it. We'd like to people watch and you could sit there and all types of fans come up and he's just so nice to everybody, you know, and John was that way for us when he.

B (10:03)

Was racing, you know, because I remember.

A (10:05)

One of the times we were there at Norwalk and Bobby Chambers was with me and it rained out. And Trey. That was Trey's first race, and you had given him a winner's circle hat. And when we left, he. He's like, dad, this is a champions hat. I said, yeah. And that guy. We're walking out, and a guy's like, hey, kid, how much you want for that hat? Trey's like, I'm like, we ain't selling no hat, son. So he's not.

B (10:30)

Not for sale.

A (10:32)

Not for sale. You know, but it's one of those sports that. It's just awesome. And that's why, you know, Robert has the experience with pressure. I mean, you know, he's racing for millions of dollars, and we're. We're shooting for, you know, tens of thousands of. Do a little different.

C (10:49)

Yeah, it's. It's exciting. You know, a funny car, you have the engine in front of you, it's more dangerous because those things do blow up from time to time. I've had some big explosions and crashes and, you know, I don't have to worry about my shotgun blowing up, especially if I do the work right.

B (11:06)

Yeah, yeah, that. That is true. I mean, and. And you know, just to wrap my head around that and. And to be. To answer your question, Rick, I never seen the video. I haven't ever watched one of Robert's races. I mean, I've never. I've never seen it. And I'm not a. I'm not a big race car guy. I. I think one time. One time in my life when I was at Lindenwood, we went to a NASCAR race, and it was at a shoot with the whole team. That's the only thing I've ever really experienced. And I thought that was pretty cool, and I could feel the vibrations of it. But. But not, you know, not like what you guys are talking about. It's nothing. Nothing like that. And I'd love to not compare. I would love to see that someday, if there was ever an opportunity to go check that out, I would be all. All in for that.

A (11:51)

Yeah, it's something to. To just experience the cars going by especially, you know, top fuels are different and the pro stocks are, but the funny cars, you get two of them going side by side at 300 mile an hour plus past you in the stands, you. You know, you're at a race. It's not like nascar.

C (12:11)

You can feel the. The earth shake. I mean, it. It rattles. So. So I started as a mechanic. You know, that's. That's how I got into it is I started as a mechanic and I was a mechanic for 12, 13 years and then started driving in 2005. You know, it's. And I, even at the end, I still like to work with my team and get my hands dirty on the car and be involved on the mechanical side. All the PR and marketing stuff wasn't my favorite.

B (12:44)

So I have a couple questions. How hard and how, like, how much does reflexes and all that stuff come into it to become like a professional driver? Like this? Like, do you have like lightning fast reaction time or. I know you said you were a mechanic. How do you shift from mechanic to driver?

C (13:00)

Yeah, you have to, you have to be quick. You know, reaction time is everything. But it's, it's different in shooting too. You know, it's like you can't, you can't just, you know, see a target and just snap at it and shoot. You know, you've gotta, you gotta see it good and all that. So it's, it's a different, different approach. Cutting a light and reacting to what's going on with the car and, and shooting a target, you know, it's, it's totally different. You would, you would. If you acted the same way shooting that you do, you know, leaving the starting line, you'd be a spaz, you know, you'd be all over the place and missed hard. You look so.

B (13:38)

Look like Ian Lawrence out there tap dancing.

A (13:44)

Well, you look like Joey, Joey Charnigo, you know?

B (13:47)

Yes. Not so slow, Joe. He, he lets them off. He might be, he might be the, the Robert height of trap shooting in our world. As fast as he shoots him, he's fastest man I've ever seen with a shotgun. But I never got very good Robertson.

C (14:00)

But, but yeah, he probably would at reaction times. Yes.

B (14:05)

So. So if you were to articulate some of the pressure situations that you've been in in a race car and you know, obviously you love to shoot and now you're getting back to it. I've seen you shoot some pretty big scores and you're, you're, you're getting better. I mean, is there anything that you learn from race car driving that helps in the mental game of trap? Or is there any overlay or is it like completely different? Nothing. Nothing computes.

C (14:30)

It really doesn't. It should, but it doesn't.

B (14:33)

I just love the way they're covering all the shoots across the country, the content, the pictures, what they're doing online, what they're doing on Facebook, Instagram, what do you Think.

A (14:41)

Yeah. Trion usa, it's a great magazine. They are the official magazine of our podcast and we are the official podcast of Traption usa. So we really appreciate it.

B (14:51)

That's really cool. And what they got is a deal right now. If you put Trap Talk P in for the print version and Trap Talk D for the digital version, it's 19.99 for the print and $9.99 for the digital for one year. You're not going to find a better deal. So subscribe today. You won't regret it.

A (15:05)

Absolutely. Thank you for all the support.

B (15:07)

You know, Rick, the only thing looks better than these hats we're wearing right now is a bunch of gold and silver from Ron Prescott at Midstate precious metal. Show them the goods.

A (15:14)

Listen, all I got silver right now. I won't bring the gold out for.

B (15:17)

Zach, but you know, I always want to get that gold.

A (15:19)

Shotgun shells, 10 ounce bars. Folks, he could do anything for you. For all your shoot needs, give Ron Prescott a call. Midstatepreciousmetals.com He's a great guy.

B (15:29)

Support him. He supports all the shoots. He supports Trap Talk. If you're thinking gold or silver, you need to be thinking Ron Prescott at Midstate Precious Metals. Thank you, Ron.

A (15:38)

That's right. Thanks for all the support.

B (15:39)

You know, Rick, I just love having the peace of mind and knowing that if I'm traveling or I'm flying, something happens. I can get my winig and my craig off replaced quickly and easily without costing me a bunch of money.

A (15:48)

Yeah, exactly. The gun and trophy insurance, it's the best out there to ensure your guns, sure. Your trophy, animals, everything.

B (15:55)

Thank you to the whole Cushman family for supporting the show and everything they do for trap shooting.

A (15:59)

Absolutely. Get a hold of Cole Cushman and he'll get you set up.

C (16:02)

Basically. You know, I had a routine in the car and you know, you've got to, you've got to focus and pay attention. That car can hurt you, you know, and you, you have to do the same thing every sing time, which is how you should shoot too. You know, not change a thing, be the same every shot. But you have to do the same thing in the car to keep it consistent. You know, if I'm on and off the clutch too much, it gets too hot and it's not going to perform well. And you know, the length of your burnout and everything, trimming the fuel back, all the things you have to do precisely every single run. So all that kept my mind occupied. You know, it wasn't like you had, didn't have time to be nervous about, you know, racing for a big win or a championship or something like that. Yet I kept my mind occupied. And then when you're driving, you know, even though it's only, you know, 3.7 seconds, it seems like an eternity when you're doing it. You know, there's just so much going on in that short period of time. And you know, you've, sometimes it actually, if you hadn't been in the car for two or three months over the winter and you come back, you know, in, in January and start racing and testing, you'd go make a run and then 30 minutes later something would come to you. It's like, wow, that just happened. Because it happens faster than your brain can process sometimes. You know, you're, you're going so fast, but the more you do it, the more you get your eyes where they need to be, the more you slow it down. And like I said, A 3.7 second run feels like it's 10 seconds with all that's packed into it.

B (17:43)

Well, you know, that's wonderful that you shared that. And I think there's a lot of overlay from what I'm hearing because I know nothing about race car driving and I know very little bit about shotgun shooting, but I'm learning every day. But, but what I will say is, you know, with what you said, with your processes, that seems exactly like when I'm talking to Dagan Voightman, like he does it the same every single time, like it has to be consistent. And then what you said about it going by in 3.7 seconds but feeling like eternity. I mean, I've had shots where, you know, you're, you're shooting it, but it's almost like you're out there forever. And it's like the last five or the last 10 to break a big score or, you know, a pressure shoot off or something in that where everything just slows down and you're micro aware of everything that's going on. And I think, exactly, I guess you.

C (18:36)

Can, you can slow a target down with your eyes. You can get them in the right spot, you can slow a target down. And that's the same with driving a race car. You know, when it's going 330 miles an hour, you can't have your eyes driving at the front of the car. It is going faster than your brain can process. So you get your eyes way down there and now you start noticing, you know, everything going by and you know what's going on it's slows it way down. And this is all your eyes.

A (19:04)

Yeah, speaking of that. When you're looking. So are you looking all the way down at the end of the racetrack? Pretty much.

C (19:11)

Then, yes. You have to. You have to get your eyes and your brain out in front of that race car so that it slows down.

A (19:20)

Interesting. That's what I wondered. I was. I was going to ask you that one time because you. So your peripheral vision, you have to have great peripheral vision because you're just. That's kind of what you're seeing is going down the racetrack then pretty much.

C (19:33)

Correct. Correct. And you know, feel. You're feeling what the car's doing. If it's about to smoke the tires or, you know, spin you. You've got to feel that and catch it and, you know, be quick with the throttle and the brake and. And get it back under control to try to win now. And.

A (19:48)

And speaking of that. So going back, because you were a mechanic on the team now, weren't you? John's clutch man at one time.

C (19:57)

A lot of years.

B (19:57)

For a lot of years.

A (19:58)

Because that's when I met you in. In Vandalia, because you had a. You had a John Force racing shirt on. And I was talking to you and I got on the trolley and I was going away. This guy's like, you know who you're talking to? And I was like, man. I said his name was Robert. And I was like, you know, my dad was a big, you know, John Force fan. So I said, yeah, you know, we're just talking about race a little bit. And he's like, you don't know who that was? I'm like. He said his name was Robert. And he's like, that's Robert Height. And I'm like, okay. And he's like, he's John Force's clutch man. And I was like, oh. So then it was like the next day because you were only there, I think that time for maybe like three or four days. So it was either the next day or the day after I seen you again. I was like, hey, thanks for letting me stick my foot in my mouth. And. And I didn't say that you were like, nah, but you don't like, advertise like, hey, I've worked for John, but. And then it was shortly after that is when then you started racing. But why. What got you in the car versus working on it was that John.

C (20:57)

Yeah, John kept pestering him and bugging him and would always ask questions about, you know, what's it like. And how did, what did that feel like? And what was that run like? And finally he just, he gave me a shot. He first said that, you know, go to Frank Hawley school. And I drove an alcohol funny car. And right after that, I started getting in John's car on Mondays and testing. And then it's like, man, you're hooked.

A (21:23)

And, you know, you were pretty good at it, too.

C (21:27)

I had a really good, really good team. And that's what it takes is, you know, a lot of good people behind you.

B (21:33)

Yeah.

A (21:33)

And John Force, I mean, you know, I was fortunate because of you, Robert, to meet him. And. And I remember being out there at the shop with you that time you were in a meeting. I was sitting downstairs eating an Egg McMuffin back when I did eat Egg McMuffin. Z come walking in and he, like, looked at me. I said, hello. He said hello. And he went by and he come back. Then he's like, are you being helped? I'm like. And I wanted to say so bad. No, I just need a place to eat my sandwich. And. And I said, yeah, I'm here with Robert. He goes, oh, you're trap shooter. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, yeah, Robert told me you were going to be here. He's like, go hang out. Go look around. And I did. I looked at his car collection upstairs and I was like, I'm in the. I'm in the wrong business.

C (22:14)

Yeah, he's a character.

A (22:16)

Yeah, he was. It was quite funny. But, you know, then we went to a couple races and I know we brought Bruce Davis and his wife up to the race the one time, and. And Ian was there and his mom. And then, you know, everybody we had. Because I got that picture of all of us there, and everybody's like, you guys went to the races? How was I? Like, it's a blast. So it was always a ton of fun, you know, and, and you were so successful in racing and then, you know, what's it been, two years now you've been retired.

C (22:45)

Yeah. Yep.

A (22:46)

So you retired two years and now you're back into shooting full time. Of course, you know, you're. You're remarried to your lovely wife Leslie, which I've known LESLIE For, God, 30 years, probably maybe 20 some years, I guess so. And so that's cool because, you know, she's one of the top lady shooters in, if not the top lady shooter in Utah.

C (23:09)

Yeah.

A (23:09)

So, you know, but I did see you were beating her a little bit there. So that's Good. You need to, you know.

C (23:14)

No, I've got my hands full. So we met in 2020. Our team didn't race. Sponsors, you know, with COVID they didn't want to spend the big money advertising. So we didn't race. We sat out. So I got to go to Vernal, you know, to the Western grand, and that's where I met Leslie. So it's okay. If. If Covet hadn't happened, I'm not sure I would ever met her.

A (23:38)

Yeah. Because she didn't. Yeah.

B (23:40)

It's amazing how little things like that happen in life, and you take a negative and turn it into a positive.

C (23:46)

Yeah, exactly.

B (23:47)

But that's wonderful. So. So, Robert, you. You've obviously won a lot of big titles. Is there any one that sticks out in your mind as your biggest title or your most. I guess the one you would say this is the one I'm most proud of.

C (24:02)

I guess it has to be my first championship. You know, that's. You know, it's. It's one of those things that you don't. You don't. You don't get validated whether you can actually do it until you do it. And there's always an element of doubt in the back of your mind until you actually win a championship or win a race, and then, wow, now I know I can do it, and you have more confidence. So I always, I guess, you know, winning my first championship, that's probably the most special. It's pretty cool.

B (24:30)

When was that?

C (24:30)

That was 2009.

B (24:33)

Okay.

A (24:34)

Wow.

C (24:36)

I've been runner up so many times.

B (24:38)

11 years in a car is what you did. 11 years driving, and that was.

C (24:43)

No, I think I was. I think I was 19 seasons in a car. So I started. It started in 05, and then in 24 was my last year.

B (24:53)

Okay. Wow. Well, that's. That's awesome, man.

A (24:56)

That's a.

B (24:56)

That's a long career.

C (24:58)

Yeah, no, I was very fortunate, but I'm loving what I'm doing now. You know, it's a whole different. Different pace, but it's. It's. I'm enjoying it.

B (25:10)

Yeah. I mean, a shotgun shell goes pretty fast, but, you know, it's not like a race car like that, like. And you're riding on a rocket. I mean, it's got to feel like you're just taking off on a missile.

C (25:20)

Yeah, exactly. No, it's. It's six GS, you know, and you leave the starting line at six GS, and then, you know, it goes out there and it slows Down a little. And then as it locks the clutch up in the middle of the racetrac, you're back up at five, six GS. And, you know, that's. Do I miss the racing? Yeah, I do. I miss a competition on Sunday, but everything else that goes along with it, I don't miss a lot of that.

B (25:47)

Well, that's good.

A (25:47)

A lot of headache.

B (25:48)

You heard it here first, folks. So for you, there must have been some kind of burning desire in. In your heart about shooting, because, I mean, at this point in your life, you could go do anything you want to do. Like, you could go, you know, go play with wine or go to France or wherever. Right? I mean, you're shooting trap like the rest of everybody else, you know. What made you want to come back?

C (26:14)

I just. I like everything about it. I like the. The. The friends you make, the camaraderie. You. A lot of. A lot of great people. You know, if you're a competitor, you know, you're always wanting to get better. You always, you know, I can do this. I want to get better. I want to shoot. Shoot good. You know, it's a. It's a something, you know, it's just a goal.

A (26:38)

Yeah.

C (26:38)

Yeah.

B (26:39)

Pushing yourself, so.

C (26:40)

Yeah, well, I listen to you guys all the time. You got to have goals and, you know, slowly, you know, work and have them be realistic. And so just always trying to get better.

A (26:53)

Well, and, and honestly, with racing, you're. You are very competitive. I mean, I've watched you at the races where, you know, you're doing good and, you know, someone be like, hey, let's go over there. I'm like, nope, I stay away. You know, the boys, when they were younger, I was like, hey, dad, let's go up there. I'm like, let's let him. He's. He's. He's working. All those other people talk to him. I'm like, yeah, well, that's just a quick deal. I said, you guys want to go have a conversation, you know, so. But you are very competitive, and then in shooting, it's very competitive, but it is one of those things where you can, you know, be competitive for 30 minutes and then go relax for a couple hours and then be competitive, you know, so it's a little different pace now. Going back, though, you went to college now, did you go to college for any machining stuff or. Or was that just. You just did.

C (27:45)

No, Just.

A (27:45)

Okay.

C (27:46)

Just. Yeah. No. Business and accounting is what I took. And, you know, I regret, you know, not taking some classes for you know, mathematics and machining and maybe more of a trade type of a background, because later on in life, even as a mechanic on the race cars, you know, you need all that stuff. So I, you know, kind of had to learn on the fly.

A (28:09)

Yeah, but you did pretty good at it.

B (28:10)

It didn't slow you down any, Robert. Literally, figuratively.

C (28:15)

Yeah, exactly.

A (28:16)

That is true. So when you. But being a machinist, you know, a mechanic and doing what you. What you love doing, that. Now fast forwarding into shotgun works, which is. So when you. You purchased Tommy Wilkinson's business. Wilkinson, you know, barrel works. But you still signed. Because I just got my. My sporting barrel back, and you'll be getting my. My trap barrels here soon, but my sporting barrel, then it's signed Wilkinson slash H. So let. Let's talk a little bit. What. What made you want to purchase Wilkinson or get into that business? I guess so.

C (29:01)

I met Tommy a lot of years ago. I. I used to shoot with Ray Stafford a little bit, and he and Tommy were. Were great friends. So I got to shoot with.

A (29:11)

To.

C (29:13)

Just always like to pick his brain. You know, I like mechanical things. And he. He was very, very smart guy. And Tom's, you know, kind of an engineer. He's. He's come up with a lot of. Of cool things to make shotguns pattern better and all that. So I did plant the seed with him a few years ago, you know, that I thought, you know, the end of my career was coming up and, you know, if he ever thought about selling his business. And then finally at the beginning of this, this year, he said he was ready. He was ready to do it. And so Leslie and I purchased the business. I spent quite a few, you know, weeks back in North Carolina learning, because Tom, you know, he's been doing it 40 years. He could do it with his eyes closed, so there's a lot to absorb and take in. And, you know, I. I still talk to Tom daily. You know, if I get hung up or something comes in that I have a question about, you know, he's just a phone call away, so he's a wealth of knowledge. And, you know, I have huge shoes to fill.

B (30:16)

You know, Rick, when you're riding around your air conditioning and your nice can am and I'm walking, I'm thinking to myself, where do I get one of these things?

A (30:23)

At Big Red Motorsports, that's where you get one. George or Jason Lee, they'll take care of you, Zach.

B (30:29)

I mean, I need one. I'm tired of riding on the back of that Cooler. I want to see sit inside that cab and roll around in style. I mean, my face is on the back, but help me out.

A (30:36)

Listen, I'm gonna move your face to the bumper is where it's gonna get moved for the new one, okay? All you need is a little quiche and we can take care of you. But listen, Big RedMotorsports.com thanks Jason and George lee and big red motorsports for all the support. They'll take care of you folks. And it's free delivery.

B (30:53)

You know, Rick, I. I know you've had a lot of involvement with them since the beginning, since they started, but I really love the way that, that the shot tracker, you know, catches the doubles from shot to shot with the looping. You know, tell the folks what they need to know about that system.

A (31:05)

It's the best system out there. It's like having a coach on the end of your barrel, like we say, but going especially in doubles from first shot to second shot. You can see it on the graph. You can see it on video.

B (31:15)

Yeah. I mean, if you talk about that j hook with Sean, holly and all them, I mean, it'll literally show that loop, and I think that's really powerful if you're doing it. They've supported the show since the. The beginning. They love trap shooting. They're great people. Give them a shot, folks. They make a great product.

A (31:28)

Take aim technologies.

B (31:30)

Hey, folks, we really want to thank Remington for supporting the show. Since day one, I've been shooting the STS, ounces and eighth light eights for singles and doubles, and the Nitro 27 from the 27 yard line, ounce and eight, seven and a half. They make a great product. You should give them a try. And as always, thank you for the support.

A (31:45)

Yeah.

C (31:45)

This guy. This guy has, like I said, he could do a barrel with his eyes closed and. And they turn out perfect. He's a perfectionist, too. You know, he wanted things leaving his shop better than they came in. And so, you know, I. I learned all of that and I'm having a blast doing it. Love this and has been busy. You know, it's. You know, I think it's helped having my racing background and, you know, people. People kind of associate what it takes, you know, to have a winning race car and all of that engineering and precision. So they expected that from Tom. So, you know, if it. I, you know, I always wondered, you know, is, are people going to trust me like they did Tom? I've got to build my name and, you know, get some reputation. So far, it's been really, really good. And actually had to. Had to send a barrel to Tom this past. I think it was two weeks ago that I had done the work on, and Tom was also going to bend it up for the customer because he didn't teach me that. He said, you don't. You don't want to go there. You don't want to learn that. So I was honestly pretty nervous about sending this barrel to Tom after I had done the. The work on it, and it was just a back boring job. And I recut a choke in it, and so I was ready. It's like, okay, critique it. Okay. And, you know, he gave me the thumbs up. So that was. That was. That helped my confidence, too.

A (33:15)

It kind of solidified.

B (33:16)

It's like winning your first championship all over again.

C (33:19)

Exactly. Exactly. You know, when you, you know, your. Your coach and your. Your teacher, you know, approves, it's like, all right, that's validation.

A (33:28)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that is something because, you know, years ago, Tommy had done my. My barrels on. On a gun I had shot and the other brand that I used to shoot, and he. I mean, he just did awesome work, you know, and then when I. I went switched and starshoot Craig Offs, I just. They were all factory choke tubes, and I was like, ah, you know, I. Sure, I'm good. But, you know, I. I did get my. I will say this. I haven't had a chance to get out and shoot the barrel because it's been so cold here, but I am supposed to go leave this weekend and go to a private event, and I'm gonna shoot it. But when it came back, Zach, I think I showed you the. The picture, you know, comes back in a nice gun sleeve, you know, all wrapped up. It was clean. I was like, God, my barrel's clean now. I mean, I'm not. Don't know what to do because I'm not so nice.

B (34:17)

I called Robert and I said, hey, what do I got to do to get my barrels over there? He says, you just got to send them. And I said, well, I said I might have to do that sooner than later because I'm excited. And I've always. So I. I got a lot of questions for Robert, but I always loved Wilkinson's work. So for me, I was born. Born in San Jose, California. Live there. Started my shooting career there. And a lot of the greatest shooters in California had Wilkinson barrel work. And, like, one of them that I really aspired to watch and learn from was Dave Kelly. And when he hit a target, I was Just like, I can't hit a target that hard. There's nothing I can do to hit a target that hard. And I would get pissed off because I'm like.

A (35:04)

Because you were shooting ski chokes?

B (35:06)

Yeah, hey, they, they were some version of skeet choke for sure. But whatever, whatever. Wilkinson did that to Dave Kelly's barrels. I mean, it was like on the 27 yard line, he was shooting singles. Like he was just like hanging ink clouds in there. And he got it, you know, dialed in the way it needs to be. So, so leading into my question, for the people that don't know what you're doing, could you walk us through like the steps and the processes and what you're actually doing? Because like, they send a barrel. Well, what's that mean? What, what, what are the things that are being done that makes it so much better?

C (35:41)

Yeah, so it's, it's all about pattern efficiency. And you know, a lot of the European guns, they, their bores are not straight, number one, okay. They're, they're tapered from one end to another. So backboring is all about, you know, straightening up the barrel. And Tom, Tom was famous for years and years, you know, before he came out with his choke tubes for just backboring and cutting new fixed chokes into a barrel. So he has all the reamers and everything to, to do all that, that we purchased all that from him. So you basically are reaming and cutting a new choke in. And Parazis are horrible for that. Their, their chokes are really long and they vary where they start everything else. So, you know, having the correct length choke and the correct bore size, you know, and then leading into the entry angle and then the parallel section of the choke, having all that in tune and the correct length will produce a better pattern. And then, you know, the back. Boring. You're basically getting rid of friction, okay? If the bore is too tight, there's friction. So backboring will actually increase the velocity. And you know, the, the number one thing for patterns, no matter what you're doing, is shooting shotgun shells with a high antimony shot hard shot. You know, if you're shooting the cheap stuff, basically it's deforming inside the barrel and they call it setback deformation. And then if it deforms, it's not going to fly straight.

A (37:21)

Okay?

C (37:21)

So basically, you know, that's, that's what you do with a fixed choke backboard, cut a new choke, blend everything. And then Tommy later on came out with his own choke tube. And that really Patterns well, because everything is precise and machined and you're still back boring it. And then you know, if you look in the end of a barrel when the choke is screwed in like some of the Cragoffs, you see a pretty big step in there into the choke. And that's, that's for safety. You got to have a little bit of a step. The choke can't stick inside the bore and interfere. It'll, you'll spit it out and ruin the barrel. But the least amount of step you have there and the nice, nice smooth entry angle into the barrel, that's going to produce a better pattern. So. Yep. So that's what you do with the Kragoff is you back bore it and then basically refit the chokes and it's a very, very small step and the pattern will, will increase, it'll be better and you'll have more of a, a more dense pattern in, in 30 inches, very little outside a 30 inch circle.

B (38:34)

So, so I want to break this down a little bit because you said so much and I'm learning so much as we're speaking on this.

A (38:40)

You just blew his mind.

B (38:42)

My brain just went poof.

A (38:43)

Right.

B (38:44)

So, so for the people listening today, the tightness of the barrel dictates pressure. I mean and that's common sense. So by alleviating some of that barrel, you're allowing it, you're allowing the shell to get faster for one and then for two. With your transitions being smooth and subtle. It's not ramming things in. Kind of like when you have a, you know, a garden hose and you're, you're, you're pushing the water through the end and it's going spraying out the sides. You're talking about a smooth transition with your payload, is that correct?

C (39:15)

Yeah, you want everything to flow correctly, flow really nice into the choke and you know, you can go too big too, you can go, you know, open the bore up too much to where you lose wad seal and you'll notice that on a cold day it sounds funny. So you, there is a sweet spot there that you know does, will optimize, you know, the, the velocity and the pattern.

B (39:39)

Now here's another question. You go sorry Ricky, go ahead, I'll just, we'll edit that part out.

A (39:45)

Yeah. So one question Robert on there is so when you like I got my barrel back and you stick it up into a light and look and it is an absolute mirror like perfect. Is that you, you polish that barrel, what does that do?

C (40:04)

Yeah, so it's. I hone it, you have a couple different grits of stones on your hone. One of them is to cut and get it to the correct size. And then there's a finer stone to, you know, more of a polish. And then you do some sanding with some mandrels that Tom built to really make the, the finish like a mirror, you know.

A (40:26)

Yeah, because that's what I noticed. It was like, I'm like, wow, this thing's gonna be clean. I didn't even want to shoot it. I mean, you know, but. And then your chokes, you know, I got the, the chokes because you did. God, I think you did six chokes for me too. And they were all, I mean, folks, they're all lasered. You know, everything shotgun works, the, the, you know, the restriction on it and everything. So it turned out just awesome, you know, but the, the shine, that's where I was like, okay, this thing's going to pattern really well. So I'm really excited.

C (40:58)

Yeah, I think you'll.

B (41:00)

So here's a technical question. We're talking about payload delivery in a 30 inch circle. And, and, and I don't know if there's exact math or data to this, but if, if you were to say what is a barrel like if, if we shot, let's just say there's 400 pellets in a, in a, in a shell and we shot at a circle and a barrel's not done. It gives X amount of pellets and then apparel's done and it gives Y amount of pellets. What, what's the differential? I mean, Is it a 5% increase? Is it a 10% increase? Is it, is it is less flyers? I mean, is there any numbers behind this or.

C (41:37)

So it's. No, there's not really numbers. You're going to have less flyers outside of a 30 inch circle and you're going to have it spread out more evenly. You're not going to have that hot center to where it's just, you know, you're throwing a softball out there. You want it more spread out and even. And that's, that's what barrel work does.

A (41:59)

You want, you want it uniformed through throughout. Now is there a. So I remember Tommy years ago talking to him and it was like, if you can get 90 plus percent in the circle, that 30 inch circle, that's like great. Yeah, that's.

C (42:15)

I mean, and you know, I live in, in Utah and you know, it's 4,500ft here, so the patterns don't open up as much up here. As they do, you know, at sea level or when you're at the grand, where there's a lot of humidity, all that. So patterning here and patterning at the grand are two different things. But if you can make it better here, it's going to be better there as well.

A (42:38)

Absolutely.

C (42:39)

Yeah. But, you know, if the grand, you could probably need to go a little tighter on chokes than you do up here in, in Utah and Colorado and some of the higher states.

A (42:49)

That, that's hence why the one year at the. The Western Grand, Ryan Glow was there the only time, and he was shooting his super full and you could see the shotgun. I'm like, ryan, you're throwing a baseball at the target. And he's like, I don't know. I'm like, take that super full out and, you know, go to a foal or even, you know, an IMOD or something. So, I mean, I shoot a fool there, but I, I've always shot one there, so.

C (43:15)

Yeah.

B (43:15)

So, Robert, I don't want to glance over that because you just said a lot, and a lot of people might not even think of that. The difference between the elevation in the height in Utah is different than shooting at the ground. Now what, why is that?

C (43:30)

The air density, you know, up here, we're thin air. You know, it's. It's kind of like racing. When we would go to Denver and race, you know, the, the engines don't run good, they don't get any air in them. And so you've got to change the, the fuel volume, the blowers, overdrive speed. You gotta, gotta retune everything at higher altitudes. Well, it's same with a, with a shotgun. You know, if, if the air's thin, there's no, no resistance to kind of open the pattern up. Whereas.

B (44:01)

And that's, that's when you go, fantastic information.

C (44:03)

Thick air. You know, if it's like cold, cool air at sea level, pattern's going to open up. Or when you guys, you guys have. Back there, you guys have a lot of humidity. Well, that also, you know, opens the pattern up.

A (44:21)

Yeah.

B (44:21)

I mean, here in St. Louis, it gets so bad. Sometimes you go outside and you think you just got out of the shower, you're just like, oh, this is a little steamy out here. A little, little, little hot. But, but. So if we can equate that to shooters listening and, and, you know, whether they have barrel work or don't, maybe they're going from Utah to the Grand. Is there a magic rule of how many choke tubes you Move for for each place. Would you say it's like 5,000ths more at the grand and 5,000ths left less at Vernal or what? What would your personal expertise be on that?

A (44:52)

Hey, Zach, have you been out to 73 Pointers Ranch lately?

B (44:55)

You know I have. Rick and Carla Burke have been great. I normally hunt pheasants and chukar down there, but now they got a brand new sporting clays facility and it is top notch. I shot it the other day, absolutely loved it. And you, if you guys haven't, you need to go give it a check out.

A (45:10)

Well, I'll have to come out and do a little hunting and we'll shoot some sporty clays then.

B (45:14)

45 minutes from St. Louis Airport. Come see it if you haven't. Guys, check them out. You know, Ricky, I know you used it on your barrels, but do you even know what RGS stands for?

A (45:21)

No, Zach, what does it stand for?

B (45:23)

Really good.

A (45:24)

Well, that is true. It is good stuff, folks. I use it to clean my barrels and it does make them shine.

B (45:30)

Only problem is I wear white T shirts when I clean my barrels and I get them all messy, so I got to be better at that. But it gets all the plastic, all the gunk out. Give them a try, folks. They're great.

A (45:39)

That's right. Give RGS a try. We appreciate all the support.

B (45:41)

You know, Rick, when you're walking down the line, you see smoke ball after smoke ball after smoke ball.

A (45:45)

What.

B (45:45)

What are you thinking in your head?

A (45:46)

I'm thinking there's some good set targets and they got to be a white flyer.

B (45:50)

They got to be white flyer. I mean, we were just at Nevada State.

A (45:53)

Shoot.

B (45:53)

We were shooting these things from the 27 yard line. They look like 16 yard smoke balls. And I'm like, only a white flyer can smell smoke like that. And we love them and they've been supporting the show since day one.

A (46:02)

That's right. Thanks for all the support, White flyer.

B (46:04)

You know, Rick, I was at the Autumn grand and the Nevada State shoot, and I was just really impressed with how I could see where my squad was when I was up. Just the technology, the ability to be able to see what options I've played if the event's paid or not. I mean, what's your experience with, with the app?

A (46:19)

Listen, SOS Clay's app. It's the best thing out there, folks. You can see everything. It's great. You see your option payouts. You can see when you're up, you can see who's paid on your squad. Sometimes Zach doesn't pay on time, but.

B (46:31)

It'S, I get out there. But what I really think is, is for gun clubs, it's free. Call Greg, get a hold of him, he'll set you up, he'll get you running. Right. And if you pay the, the premium once a year, you get free pre squatting in all the shoots. And that's the best value in trap shoot.

A (46:45)

Absolutely.

C (46:45)

SOS clays.com I think what you just said is, is very, very close. Five thousandths. You know, you can, you can shoot a 35,000ths choke at, for the 27 yard line, a full choke, you know, at the grand and places where there's thick air, but it doesn't hurt to go to a 30,000 choke here at Spanish Fork.

B (47:04)

Okay.

A (47:05)

Yeah, higher elevations open up a little bit. Yeah. Because I'll get a lot of students, especially when it's humid. They're, they're shooting a, a mod and they're like, God, I look like I was on that. I said, well, it's so humid out, your chokes opening up. I said, so that's, you need to tighten that choke. And you know, I get some parents are like, no, no, no, it's fine. I'm like, okay, because you're gonna have a lot of holes in that choke, you know, and stuff.

B (47:34)

Yeah, I mean, it really does make a difference what shell, what choke, what distance, where they're breaking the target. Like all of that matters. Reflex, time matters, all of it. All of it comes into a shot, I guess, you know, and this is, I know what mine and Ricky's answer is on the choke question. But for you, Robert, would you say there's like, if you were going to say, okay, this is the perfect choke for singles, this is the perfect choke for doubles. Each shot and this is the perfect choke for handicap. What would you personally recommend?

C (48:07)

Well, I'm, you know, basically going off what Tom Wilkinson has done all the testing and years and years of experience and you know, a 25,000ths choke for singles, which is an improved modified and 35 for a long distance, long yardage handicap shooter and then doubles, you know, 15,000ths for the first shot and 25 for the second shot.

B (48:34)

Yeah. And I, and I shoot 15 and 25 in my barrels for doubles for sure. I pretty much just leave the 35,000ths in all the time. I guess if you were going to pick, if you're going to say, hey, we're going to leave a choke tube in the single barrel and you're going to Go from coast to coast, New York to California. Would you put in a 30 or would you put in a 35?

C (48:56)

Probably 35. If you're going to shoot everywhere.

B (48:59)

Okay, yeah, then. And I appreciate that you heard it here, folks. I think if you're going to shoot all of the different weathers, all of the different, you know, circumstances, high altitude, low altitude, you know, rain, snow, clear day, I mean, that's a do it all joke. But I think there is something to be said about what he's saying here and, and, and having, you know, go to Utah. Okay, well, if I'm shooting 30,000ths, it's like I'm shooting 5,000ths because, because of that resistance there, you know, and that's something that, that I haven't spent a lot of time changing or adjusting. But you can definitely see when you go over there and you're like, man, these are getting hit a little bit harder than they were when I was, when I was in New York shooting those, those little razor blades. Right? I mean, it's just a little different deal.

A (49:48)

Well, it does make a difference on, on flight angle and stuff. And, and let's go back to what you said on the doubles, because I remember one year when I, I actually called Tommy and I said, hey, you know, what do you recommend? And he had done my barrels. They were fixed, choked and it was, they were 18 and 28. And he said, anywhere from that, like 15 to 20. And the 25 to 30ish is perfect for doubles. He said, anything over that, you're wasting it. And I remember when I got the Craig off, I tried a 35 second shot of doubles, man, it leave a black spot out there, but you would occasionally miss one because it was a little tight. So then I backed it off to the 30 and it was like, okay, these are, you know, and I, I shoot the 20. I shoot MOD IMOD, which is 20 and 30 and for doubles and, and I seem to like that. I could, I just, I've never been an open choke guy until I started shooting some sporting clays, you know, because you can break a target, you know, on. But I, you know, with an opener, choke. But I really like that, that 20, especially when rich Bullard's following me and I leave that black dot on that first one out there for him to.

B (51:03)

He doesn't like that, calling me, telling me about it. He's been saying, you know, Ricky's hitting that first target too hard. I'm going to have to get off the squad. And I said, you might be off the squad. That ain't bad. Because of that.

A (51:14)

Hey, he can leave. We'll get him replaced.

B (51:17)

No, he's irreplaceable. He's my friend. I love him. But. But, you know, it's. It's just so cool, you know, get into this side of it, Robert, because you're so passionate about what you do. Everyone can tell. And I've heard other people say already what a great job you guys are doing. And, you know, also, I wanted to say thank you for. For the wonderful pins that you gave out for us running. Running those events. Those pins are really cool, actually. Might have them right here. This might be a spot where I. Do you have them right there, Robert?

C (51:47)

No, I don't have any. So, you know, that's all my wife, Leslie. Leslie is awesome at marketing, and she. We make a good team here.

B (51:57)

Ricky's going to get the pins right now, so he'll. He'll go get the pen so we could see him.

A (52:00)

But I got them. They're sitting on my shelf to, to showcase, even though it's just me and my wife in here. But we, we showed them before, but, you know, I broke a hundred the first time there. Or actually, it was in doubles, but I got the 100 straight shotgun words, singles pin, which is badass. They're cool. Then they are. And there's the 200. And then you've got the hundred straight and doubles. Now, I'm sure you got one made for 100 straight and handicapped, too.

C (52:35)

Yeah, yeah. Actually, Britt Dalton, he's got one of those.

A (52:37)

He's probably the first one.

C (52:39)

Yeah, yeah.

A (52:40)

But it's so cool. They come in these cases with the. The logo. And I mean, that logo is so cool. Which, you can see it in the background there with Robert on his. On his tool chest. But, yeah, I know Leslie is. You guys can see out on all the social media. Leslie's really been hammering the. The marketing stuff, which is what you got to do. I mean, it's, it's, you know, the new technology.

B (53:01)

She's doing a great job.

C (53:03)

Good at it. Yeah, you.

B (53:04)

You both are doing a great job and we really appreciate it. Now, in addition to barrel work and choke tubes, is there any other services or products that Shotgun Works provides? Hats, T shirts, towels, like any of that stuff yet or coming down the road or what's, what's your full line of. Of services?

C (53:24)

Yeah, we have all that. We have shirts and, and hats and towels and, you know, all that kind of stuff. We, we messed around this past summer selling Some stuff at some of the shoots, and it went well. But, you know, I also spent some time with Tom learning, you know, Perazzi release triggers, but. And I get calls for those all the time, but I'm so busy with the barrels that I'm kind of having to bypass the. The release trigger work right now. The barrels are, you know, they're keeping me plenty busy.

A (53:54)

Yeah, so.

B (53:55)

So maybe expansion in the future someday and more. More things potentially. Or. Or just.

C (54:01)

I don't know.

B (54:02)

I don't know how we can make two Roberts because we need more people working.

A (54:06)

Hey, well, you. You get Leslie in the shop.

C (54:10)

Yeah, exactly. And Brandt Brands will come down and help me in the shop.

B (54:15)

So is there. Is there any exciting news coming down the pipe or any new things that you want to let the listeners know about today? Whether it's on the marketing side or on the product side or. Or on the team side?

C (54:28)

Not really. You know, we're just. We are showcasing, you know, what we call top guns, and that's the people that have had our barrel work and, you know, are all Americans or, you know, winning big events, things like that, and, you know, just to kind of let the public know, you know, that this. This barrel work does pay off.

B (54:49)

Yes, well, yeah, I seen your. The first one you posted was Dagan, and, you know, obviously Derek.

A (54:54)

Derek mine was the first.

C (54:55)

Derek Mine. Yeah.

B (54:56)

Okay, I missed that one. I thought I. That was the first I seen was.

A (54:59)

Was you were out to lunch.

B (55:01)

I might have been. Hey, I could have been at lunch. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna lie about those facts, but what I will say is I didn't see the Derek post, but I did see the Dagan one. It was very, very well done and very well deserved. I think Dagan is. Is very humble and. And one of the true ambassadors of the sports. And he's a great shot, obviously. And, you know, the only thing I'm kind of upset with is I thought he hit him pretty hard before, so now I got to see him hit him even harder. And. And I. I don't know how much more my ego can take.

A (55:29)

Robert.

B (55:30)

Like, he's just. He's just going to be just making little exclamation points out there in the sky all over the country. I mean, he didn't need any help.

A (55:37)

Robert, listen, Robert, you're gonna. You're gonna get in that. In that classification. Like Justin Debris was. Was selling pilas to. To Dag. And when he put them on the first time, he goes, wow, I can See the target better. And every stand there was like. And Justin was like, do to do. We don't care.

B (55:55)

We. We don't need to help him out, Robert. He's got it figured out.

C (55:59)

Yeah, no, he does. It's. He's been fun to work with and, you know, I. I'm excited to see, you know, how. How he does with the different barrels.

A (56:08)

Yeah, he. Their. Their whole family. The Voightman family are great people and they're. They're great ambassadors of the sport. You know.

C (56:14)

They are. I did Connor's barrels as well and so far he. He really likes them too. Those guys get out there and they're practicing all the time.

A (56:21)

Oh, there. Listen, when Ryan Glow ran Omaha Gun Club, Harry Coke, you know, they'd come out there non stop and. And shoot, you know, and Dagan and. And he practices just like he shoots, you know. So, yeah, Dagan is. I mean, he's been kicking our butts the. The last couple years, you know, which, you know, I've been second and I'm not, you know, that's. I mean, he's a young kid, but very, very humble and. And just great, great kid, you know.

B (56:48)

So.

A (56:49)

Yeah, it will be interesting to. To see how he's shooting. You know, you could have done a choke rob that said full and put skeet on it. And listen, I'll give you a little bit of money if you do that to Zach's.

B (57:01)

As long as that thing lays clouds out there, it could say skewed on it. It could say Zach and any super skeet. And then I'll pull it out and I'll show people. See, I shoot a ski choke from the 27th.

A (57:11)

I mean, you know, that would be funny.

B (57:14)

Yeah, we could get it done, you know, but no.

A (57:17)

And then so are you. Is it easy to get a hold of you? Shotgun Works is stuff on the website to like they can fill out information there to send barrels in or do they got to call and talk to you and get all that done first?

C (57:30)

Both. You know, the website, which is shotgunworksinc.com it's got you my cell phones on there. And then any customer can call anytime. We can talk. There is an order form that does help, you know, give me all the information so I can do the work and send it back to them. But, you know, always communicating with the customers when I receive their barrels and how long I'll have them and when I'm shipping them out. So try to. And try not to. You know, I try to schedule it to where I Don't have people's barrels for a long time. You know, I'll tell somebody to get me that barrel on a certain day. Two or three days later, it'll leave my shop. Yeah.

A (58:09)

And that's to that. I can attest to that firsthand. I talked to him a while back, and he had a slot open, so I sent him. Then, boom, they show back up, you know, and it was.

B (58:21)

Yeah, I. I think. I think that's the hard part about any kind of custom shotgun work is the downtime. Like whether it's getting a stock made or whether it's barrel work or whether it's choke tubes or whatever. Whatever it is. Think about us trap shooters. We're not very patient people. And apparently when.

A (58:38)

When you.

B (58:39)

When you send something, you're like, hey, you know, you call up and you're like, hey, I sent you that barrel yesterday. Is it done yet? And you're like, yeah, I haven't even got it yet. But. But it's just the expectation of everybody wants everything right now, you know, instant gratification. And the fact that you're being proactive on that, I think that's really going to help with your customer base for sure. Because nobody wants to wait 10 weeks for a barrel.

C (59:01)

No. Tommy always told me, he said, you know, he says, you'd think that you're going to get busy in the off season, right when people aren't shooting, he says, but they'll all wait till it's two weeks before the spring grant and decide they want their barrels done and want them by the spring grand.

B (59:18)

Not only are they impatient, but they're procrastinators. That's what you're saying.

C (59:22)

Exactly.

B (59:23)

They're both ends of it.

A (59:26)

Now, do you. Do you plan on hitting quite a few shoots this next year to Robert or what's your schedule?

C (59:32)

Yeah, try to probably go to, you know, the spring grand and Arizona State shoot. And then, you know, we are building a new home and a new shop. So that might limit, you know, some of the spring shooting, but we'll definitely this summer be, you know, at the grand and in different places.

A (59:50)

You're going to come to the Western Grand, I presume?

C (59:52)

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's Vernal. We'll definitely be over there.

A (59:55)

I'll be back there this year or this. Yeah, this new target year. I'll be back at the Western. I think Zach actually might come finally.

B (60:02)

I mean, it's not on the US Open this year, so. You heard it here first, folks. I have nothing keeping me out of the Western grand and Vernal. I mean, it's. It's a good time and. And I love it. I love the way Sean Rhodes runs the club. They throw a great target and, you know, you can't really say enough good things about what they're doing there. So if you haven't been there, give it a shot. Question, Robert, I know you said you're going to some shoots. Are you actually bringing, like a trailer set up for people to come and get stuff with at these shoots, or is it more just all online in order and. And that type of situation?

C (60:37)

Yeah, mostly online, you know, but we do set up a little booth at some of the shoots and people can come and get apparel and a business card and. Glad to talk to anybody and. And try to educate them as much as I can on barrel work.

B (60:52)

I love that. A couple questions about. About shells and then we'll get out of here. You know, you said you adjust the barrels, you straighten them. Is there. Is there anything you do different for different shows? Like, if I said, hey, I'm shooting Remington sds, would you put it to that barrel? Exactly. Remington sds, or is it just any shell? It's going to make them better. Rick, I really think that Gunfit is probably the most important part of shooting big scores. Would you agree with that?

A (61:18)

Absolutely. I think Gunfit is the most important thing.

B (61:21)

I mean, most of the top. All Americans are shooting custom stocks. I know when I got my custom stock, my scores went up. I broke 100 shrift in the 27 within seven days. I mean, I mean, I'm sure your experience has been similar.

A (61:31)

Yeah, I've been shooting a custom gun stock for 20 years. Winning. If you want to win championships, get a win of gun stock.

B (61:38)

Yeah, Call Bobby, call Luke. I mean, we got the stock whisperer over there, Bill. Give them a shot. They're great and they know what they're doing.

A (61:44)

Absolutely. Winig.com Check them out.

B (61:47)

Hey, Rick, we got to take a second. We got to thank Outlaw Engineering and the Freston family for supporting Trap Shooting and supporting Trap Talk podcast. They've been here for us. They're great people.

A (61:56)

You know.

B (61:56)

You know him real well, Rick.

A (61:57)

Yeah, I. I've known Randy since 1988. R2, and. And the family, they're great supporter of the show. Coup just won the Autumn Grand Handicap Championship with a 97.

B (62:08)

I know, I was there. I got to interview him. It was great. I was so proud of him. He's doing a great job. Where's Coop? He's somewhere with that big buckle. He's having fun.

A (62:16)

So that's.

B (62:17)

So you need anything engineering related, get a hold of Outlaw. They'll take great care of you. Great.

A (62:21)

Folks, folks, thanks for all the support. Outlaw.

C (62:23)

Yeah, it's, it's not that much of a science, you know, but the Remingtons, the Federals and Winchesters and the good Fiocchis, all those that have the hard shot, that's what you really want to be shooting. You know, some of the, some of these guys that are buying shot that's soft and reloading, you know, they can't expect that much, you know, and, and some of the cheaper, you know, ammo has soft shot and like I said, it gets deformed before it ever leaves the barrel and it will not fly straight.

A (62:57)

Interesting.

B (62:57)

So that's a lesson, I guess. If you put quality in, you're going to get quality out. And so if you're shooting, you know, cheap shells, maybe if you have to do it, reserve them from practice or for I would say the close yardage games, singles and doubles, where it's not going to make as much of a difference. But if you're shooting at distance, I mean you want as much maximum pellet count, you want that, need to have.

A (63:18)

It that high animony.

C (63:20)

That's correct.

A (63:20)

Now let me ask you a question real quick on, on speed. So slower shells tend to pattern tighter, correct?

C (63:27)

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, faster shells will shoot lower.

A (63:32)

Yeah.

C (63:32)

You know there's, there's a, in barrel time they call it. Right. So when you pull the trigger, the barrel does move up, there's a reaction to the explosion. And so a faster shell that gets out of the barrel quicker is going to be shoot lower, you know, a lower point of impact than a slower shell.

B (63:51)

That makes a lot of trusty. Yeah, that makes.

A (63:53)

I always knew the, the, the back years ago when I used to shoot federal extra lights seven and a half, they patterned real tight. And then when I went to a light, I went to a light 8. They seem to open up a little bit. So that's why.

C (64:11)

And the eight, the eight, you know, there's, they don't, they don't have, they're not as, not as heavy. Okay. So they get affected by the, the elements more than a number. Seven and a half.

A (64:25)

Yeah.

B (64:25)

So, so would you, I mean and this is putting you on the spot here and I know there's no, no 100. Right answer. But in your opinion, talking with Tom, if you could pick whether you shot seven and a half or eights all the time. Would you pick seven and a half? Should you pick eights? Or would you mix them kind of like me and Ricky do, where you shoot eights up front and then seven and a half from the. The back? Like, what's. What's the secret sauce here?

C (64:47)

What you guys do, I believe is best, and that's what I do as well. You know, I do think, you know, at the higher elevations like we are here, I think you could shoot a handicap 8 shell and be just fine. There's more, more, more BBs, too. But I think when you get to the thicker air that you want and you're shooting 27 yards, you want a seven and a half.

A (65:10)

Like down in Florida, Like. Like the Southern. The Southern Grand Silver Dollars. That's real. That's what people. Yeah, yeah, your sea level and down there with that real thick air. So it makes a big difference.

B (65:25)

It really does, folks. I mean, having the right choke, having the right shell, having, you know, that. That matters a lot. Gun fit, that matters a whole lot. Like, these are. These are important things that are often glossed over, and I think they're glossed over because, you know, sometimes people may be in a mindset where, well, I might not be good enough yet to notice those things, but I would really focus on, you know, ironing out your game and getting consistent and then finding something that works for you and sticking with it. And that's. I think there's a lot of changing going on in the game, and I've never seen a lot of changing produce a lot of success. It's more of finding the right secret sauce and then. And then sticking with that secret sauce moving forward.

C (66:09)

Exactly.

B (66:10)

Well, Robert, we've covered just about everything there is to know about. About barrels and about you and your life, and I'm sure we could probably come on here and do another podcast episode just talking about your championships that you've won in your life and. And all the cool stories. But is there anything else you want to share with the listeners today before we want we get out of here? Is there anyone you'd like to thank?

C (66:32)

No, I just. Yeah, I want to. I want to thank Tom Wilkinson, you know, for. For, you know, training me and teaching me everything and still being available today for any. Anything that. That comes up. And, you know, he's the best. The best compliment I could ever get is somebody to say that they're. They're barrel that I did shoots just like what Tommy did. You know, that's. That would be a huge compliment. And, you know, I want to thank my wife. We make a good team here with this new business. We're enjoying it, we're having a lot of fun and look forward to seeing everybody at the shoots and hope hopefully we can do some work for you.

B (67:11)

Well, that's, that's exciting news and, and we appreciate everything you and Leslie are doing. You're definitely making a splash in the, the trap shooting world. People are wearing the gear, they're, they're, they're repping the pens, they're excited. And, and I think it goes back to excitement. I mean, at the end of the day, we're trying to bring excitement back to the game. However, we can get people interested, let people know that there's things to shoot for and there's things that are, that are. That are becoming positive. And if you ever get to the point where you're shooting off for some, you know, big grandiose trophy, that, that, that we. We make it some shoots. One day you're going to want to have the right shells, the right gun, the right barrel work, all the right things, because, you know, nothing sucks worse than waiting for it to get good and then not being ready. So you gotta be. You gotta be ready to strike while that iron's hot. So thank you so much for spending your time with us. I know you, you could probably be working on barrels right now and getting ahead because I know you're. You're pretty stocked up on work to do. So we really appreciate you giving your expertise and your time to our listeners today. Robert, so thank you very much.

C (68:16)

Thank you. And thank you guys for what you do. You know, this is. Is exciting to the trap shooting world as well. It's, you know, it's a shame that we don't have interviews with Leo and, and guys like that, you know, and, you know, to pick their brains. But from what you guys are doing the last few years, you're picking it up and moving forward and educating everybody on shooting.

A (68:39)

No, we, we appreciate that. It's been a lot of fun and stuff. And, you know, too bad we couldn't add, you know, Brandt couldn't have been there with you. We could have got him on the show, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah, he'd love that.

C (68:50)

He did tell some stories.

A (68:52)

Yeah, exactly. No, and it is. It. We appreciate everything you're doing. And, and it is a lot of fun. You know, people are talking about it because you guys, not only Zach do they do it for trap. I mean, he does for every barrel.

B (69:04)

Skeet, sporting, whatever, all that Wouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter. It's making better patterns. So I mean technically, I mean if you wanted to do it with your hunting gun, I mean to kill more doves and ducks and whatever, I mean a better pattern is a better pattern. Right Robert?

C (69:20)

Yes, sir. Yep. Now a lot of the, a lot of the guns you, you can't, I can't do anything with that. Have the hard chrome lined barrels, you know, you, you can't get rid of that chrome and so you're kind of stuck. You really can't do anything. Can't even put choke tubes in them if they're fixed. Choke guns now. So mostly is the, the Cragoff Parazzi silver sights. We do all the silver sights choke tube guns for silver sights.

B (69:48)

Okay, well that, that's awesome. Well, you heard it here first, folks. Thank you, Robert for tuning in. We appreciate you. We'll have John throw a link up either, you know, down there. Yeah, down, down below. He's usually good at that. He handles it. And, and we'll look forward to staying in tune with your progress and what you're doing. And, and I'm sure we will probably end up having several of your shooters on the show. We've already had Derek and Dagan, but I'm sure we'll have them on again at some point in time to, to ask them questions about, about their, their smoke balls now but like I said, it's, it's, it's going to be really cool to see and we appreciate you. And that being said, we're signing off. Happy Friday. Remember, like share, subscribe, comment, send in your questions, wear your gear, whether it's trap talk gear or shotgun works gear and, and be proud and get to a trap shoot soon. So we'll see folks.

A (70:43)

Happy holidays, folks.

C (70:45)

Thank you guys.

A (70:46)

Thanks.

B (70:47)

Hey folks, if you're wondering where you can get your merch, head on down to shop.taptalkpodcast.com yes folks, you can get.

A (70:53)

Hats, T shirts, sweatshirts, they even have a ladies tank shooter's towel. Miles. We might have some new stuff coming out for the 2026 year. Who knows?

B (71:02)

We got all the swag. Head on down to the website. Thank you so much for being trap talk supportive.

A (71:06)

Thanks everyone.