← Trap Talk From The Back Fence
Trap Talk From The Back Fence
How to Improve Your Vision for Trapshooting | Laura W. Winkel, OD – Trap Talk E165
01:11:53
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- [00:00]
A
Hello, Trap Talk listeners. I'm your host Zach Danini and I'm here with my co host Richard Marshall Jr. How's it going, Ricky?
- [00:08]
B
It's going good, baby.
- [00:10]
A
We're having another fun day and we've got a very, very, very special guest on today, Dr. Laura Winkle, who is a longtime trap shooter and eye specialist. So we've had a lot of people send in messages asking about how the eyes work, what we can do to be better shooters and, and how we can all break hundreds and hundreds of hundreds like Ricky. So hopefully, hopefully Laura's going to give us some insight today on her shooting career and also some, some ability on how we can do better with seeing those little orange discs that we all love to shoot.
- [00:40]
B
Absolutely.
- [00:41]
A
Welcome to the show, Laura.
- [00:42]
C
Thanks for having.
- [01:07]
A
Welcome to season four of Trap Talk
- [01:09]
B
brought to you by Craig off the choice of champions.
- [01:12]
A
Hey folks, if you're wondering where you can get your merch, head on down to shop.trap talk podcast.com.
- [01:17]
B
yes folks, you can get hats, T shirts, sweatshirts, they even have a ladies tank, shooter's towels. We might have some new stuff coming out for the 2026 year. Who knows?
- [01:28]
A
We got all the swag. Head on down to the website. Thank you so much for being Trap Talk supporter.
- [01:32]
B
Thanks everyone.
- [01:33]
A
Ricky, would you mind introducing her for the people that might not know, even though I know she is pretty famous, especially in the, the, the, the western side of the country.
- [01:42]
B
Yep. Up in the northwest. So Dr. Laura Winkle, she's been shooting since 1975. Zach wasn't even a thought back then and I was one. But that is pretty impressive to have, you know, be shooting that many, that many years. And she started when she was 10. But she is a, a 21 time ATA all American. She has won multiple championships at the grand with the lady two back in 24, the last couple handicaps and then what was it, the class singles championship. But she is a 15 time lady state champion in Washington. But also she has won the open handicap championship and then she going in, it's trap shooting. So the Pita Grand Pacific, she won that handicap championship in 1991. So that's pretty impressive to be winning especially up in the Northwest because I know when the Grand Pacific can be a little sporty. Back when it was shot at some of the different clubs, Evergreen and such, which heard it's going back to Evergreen this year, you know, so. But Lauren has won a ton of stuff. She's been shooting so long. She's also an optometrist correct. So that'll be great because her name, John Slinker, actually threw out a deal on trap sh.com and asked about some eye doctors that, you know, would be willing to come on the show. We had a lot of people that actually recommended her that, hey, she's a trap shooter and she knows what she's doing and she's an eye doctor. So you guys need to get her on the show. So I reached out and she was gracious enough to accept it. So we got Laura on the show and it's going to be an awesome episode, folks. So welcome to the show.
- [03:26]
A
So, Laura, the quick thing I want to get into before we get into everything about eyes is, you know, obviously your. Your email is, you know, trapped for life or whatever it is. I love to shoot live for trap. That's it. And. And so you're one of the people I consider a lifer. You know, I talked to Sean, Holly about this a few times. There's people that just do it and they stay in it and it's a part of their life. Ricky, you know, myself, you, Sean, I mean, a lot of people that just, they gravitate to it. So how did you get started and what made you love it so much that you've just done it your whole life?
- [04:00]
C
My dad got me started and I'm not sure if it's because he didn't know where I was running around at at the club or I. I asked him to. First time I went out and shot, I got a one and I know that when I hit it, I jumped up and turned around and look, dad and just grinned because I was so happy that I got the one.
- [04:17]
A
So.
- [04:17]
C
And then once I got. He said I could. Once I started shooting 15s or 17s or 18s, I could start shooting some register targets. So I did that and then just kept shooting. I just loved it. I just love hitting them. I love being happy about it. I like hitting enough targets to win something and just was there a way I went.
- [04:37]
A
So that was. You started shooting in the. In the Northwest. I mean, have you been there your whole life or where do you start?
- [04:44]
C
I started in Spokane. Spokane Gun club.
- [04:47]
B
Nice.
- [04:48]
A
So for you now there's been a big shift because obviously, you know, the Northwest, I mean, I know some gun clubs have gone out of business in that part of the country, but I mean, trap shooting was huge, huge, huge. You know, 20, 30 years ago in that part of the country. I mean, everybody. How's that shift been for you? How have you felt that and experienced it.
- [05:07]
C
It's. It's hard to find large amounts of people at a shoot. So we've got our Camas Prairie that's coming up in March. We've got, you know, the Pita grand is the other big shoot. So honestly, for me to be able to, like, get all American points, I have to travel out of the state in order to find large enough shoots.
- [05:30]
A
So.
- [05:30]
C
But there's more and more of the smaller clubs this year that I've seen that are going to add on to our schedule. So that's good.
- [05:35]
A
That is a good thing.
- [05:37]
B
Yeah, well, we just always good to
- [05:38]
A
have the small clubs adding because they're disappearing. I mean, everywhere. We don't see the weekend ATAs anymore. And that was the backbone of the sport. And, you know, so many people, we talk on the show all the time about, you know, these big mega shoots, and you got to go to the Nevada or you got to go to Dale Stockdale's, you got to go to the grand, which that is like the epitome of trap shooting. But you also have to have these weekend shoots that we support consistently. Otherwise we don't have a sport because those gun clubs aren't going to stay open if we don't, you know, represent on those little weekend shoots, you know what I mean?
- [06:11]
C
And then getting money into the state coffers, too, in order to throw the state shoot and so forth.
- [06:16]
B
Yeah, yeah. Because the smaller shoots then produce money that goes into the state association because of the state fees. That's the. I think that's the. The part some of the people fail to realize is, you know, all these state fees add up to be able to throw and afford the. To throw state shoots and especially big ones. I mean, like, you know, I know you were at Nevada State shooting this this past year, you know, and, and the board there and Slinker and everybody has done an awesome job at, you know, taking that from one of the smallest state shoots out there to now. I think this year it's, I think, easily going to be a top 10 state shoot for sure, but it could be a top five.
- [06:55]
C
Yeah.
- [06:55]
B
You know, and. And that is one of the things that, you know, with a great board, it's happening. But yeah, I was just at Livermore Gun Club and talking to Brian Weeks, their manager, and, and, you know, he throws the.
- [07:08]
A
The
- [07:10]
B
grand and, you know, he's like, hey, you know, we're trying to grow it. We're trying to do things and, you know, we just want to get, you know, some more help and, and you know, it's, that's one of the things I think we got to do is, is the ATA needs to step up and, and talk more about the smaller shoots than all the satellite Grant, you know, and the bigger shoots. Because, I mean, when I started, I didn't just go to the Spring grand or go to the, you know, Southern Grand. It was like, okay, you went to your local shoot, you shot your local zone shoots and then you went to your state shoot, and then from there you went to some out of state shoots and, you know, and such. So now, so you said you, you started at Spokane Gun Club. Is that where you originally started?
- [07:52]
C
Correct.
- [07:52]
B
Okay. So I shot the, the Western grand there that year. That was a very interesting club with how wide the trap houses were.
- [08:00]
C
So a lot of people talk about that.
- [08:02]
B
Yeah, it was, it was funny. I, you know, long story short, Tank Lunsford flew to Omaha. I picked him up and we drove to Spokane from, from Lincoln, actually, from Omaha. Had to come back through Lincoln, but we drove out there and on the way, Nora had called me and she's like, hey, you're going to Spokane? I said, yeah. She said, when are you going to be there? And I was like, well, you know, we'll be there about 9 o' clock tonight. She said, go to the gun club. I said, well, we'll go in the morning. She said, no, no, no, go to the gun club and then call me tomorrow. Okay. So we pull in the gun club and I turn my truck and the headlights at the trap house and Tank goes, what the heck is that? And you could see the two different colors. And so we pulled real close. I got out at a flashlight. I'm like, what in the heck? And I was like, oh, I understand it was for storage, you know, the. But it. So I called Nora the next day. She. I thought you'd get a kick out of that. You know, I'd never seen anything like it.
- [08:58]
C
Right. So it never occurred to me because I grew up there.
- [09:01]
B
Yeah, exactly. Well, that, that's the thing. All the local people were like, what's the big deal? And I'm like, well, we don't see trap house where literally a quarter left. Never left the, the width of the concrete, you know.
- [09:14]
A
Yeah. The only other place that was as big as that one that's no longer around it was Sacramento Gun Club. So I don't know if you ever shot Sacramento Gun Club, Ricky, but they had that same thing where they had the color change and the houses were so wide and it was Just for storage so they could keep all their birds in there, you know, and it made sense. Other than you're shooting out of these things that look like bunkers, you know,
- [09:35]
B
you're like, okay, yeah, no, that, that, that's interesting. So how long did you stay? Were you. So you live in Kennewick, which is. That's quite a bit aways from Spokane now, correct?
- [09:47]
C
Yeah. When I, after I got out of college, I ended up in Kennewick, so.
- [09:52]
B
Okay.
- [09:52]
C
But I grew up there and basically left during about 1983.
- [09:56]
A
Okay.
- [09:57]
B
So for about nine, what was about eight years, you shot at the Spokane Gun Club then.
- [10:03]
A
Nice.
- [10:03]
B
Yeah, I mean, it was a great time, you know, but it was interesting to, to see the trap houses like that. And I was like, okay, so.
- [10:13]
C
And nobody warned you in advance.
- [10:15]
B
And Nora just said, go look at it. So I was like, go have fun. Goes, man, we might not have came.
- [10:22]
A
He did fine. I'm sure he won all the money as he always does. It was a good time, but I
- [10:26]
B
want a couple things. But.
- [10:27]
A
Yeah, but you know, Laura, I want to know. You're obviously a high level competitor. You know, I've seen you in the winter circle in category consistently throughout your career, and I've only been around in shooting for 20 years, and in those 20 years, I've seen you winning pretty much everywhere you've gone. So. So as a shooter, before we get into eyes, you know, what is your style? Are, you know, are you one eye shooter, two eye shooter, you know, what are your hold points? You know, how do you look at a trap field and you know, do what you do to be competitive?
- [10:58]
C
So I'm a two eyed shooter and I hold for my starting point midway between where the target exits and where it peaks. I like to have my eyes out in the area, I guess they call it the kill zone. So I have my eyes out where I want them to be and then I bring the gun up to my eyes or my eye, and I like to keep my gun still, call for the bird when I see it, then move on it.
- [11:25]
A
So are you traditional in the spots on the house where on five you're on the corner and on one you're on the corner inside or outside of those normal positions, or what would you say?
- [11:36]
C
Inside of those normal positions. So a lot of times what I'll do is I'll watch the targets as they exit the trap and figure out where I can see it once it exits and then I will hold above that point, if that makes sense.
- [11:49]
A
Yeah, so. So you're talking about the flashing zone. Target comes out, it flashes for 3, 4, 5ft, whatever that zone is. And once it comes clear and you can see it as a whole target, you're basically referencing your hold point based on when you see it as a whole clear target. Is that correct?
- [12:05]
C
Somewhat. Maybe what I'm actually seeing is more of a flash. And so I'll hold directly above the flash, and then still, and then from there, have a peripheral vision so that in my peripheral vision, I'll know where it's at and then move accordingly.
- [12:20]
B
Okay.
- [12:20]
A
Are you letting it break, or are you, like, trapping it? More like a rich Bullard style, where you're stopping it before it gets to your gut. No, you're letting it.
- [12:27]
C
Yeah, I let it get up and then move that direction. Yeah.
- [12:30]
B
Are you looking over the gun? Are you looking around it?
- [12:34]
C
I am looking through the beads.
- [12:37]
B
Through the beads. Okay, so you do. You look like I do, except for I'm down on the house and I look through the beads. And it's hard to explain that people don't quite understand that when I do it, they go, what do you mean you're looking through? And I'm like, I looked through the beads, I said. And then I. As soon. And I'm low, but as soon as I see a flash, I move. And when I move, as soon as I'm moving, it's clearing up. So I clear up and I pull the trigger when I'm on it. So you. You understand that, you know, move. Looking through the beads? Because a lot of people, they're like, well, no, I look two feet over the. The barrel, and I'm like, yeah, you're getting a lot of disconnect, you know, and that's the one thing. And as an eye doctor, you understand that, because a lot of people there, and then they start to analyze it, and they' like, oh, that's why. Maybe I'm missing this. Certain. Absolutely. Because you're. You're too far stretched. You know, your eyes can only do so much. And then when the barrel come. If you're looking too far, then the barrel comes into play. Your eye automatically then goes right back to the barrel, you know, versus looking through them as you're moving. You. You're seeing the barrel in your peripheral and your beads right there. So it's no big deal.
- [13:49]
C
Yeah, y. That's what I tell people. You don't have to look at the bees. Some people do. But, yeah, you don't have to, because if you put the gun up right Every time that I always ask them, I say, are they always lined up when you look? And they say, yeah. I said, well, they probably always are.
- [14:04]
A
They're probably lined up when you don't look. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So, so for you, a little bit more of a higher hold point than, than a lot of people we have on the show, is it lower in handicap than it is in singles or is it about the same? I mean, do you, do you adjust
- [14:19]
C
that it's lower in handicap?
- [14:21]
A
How much would you say you're bringing it down then?
- [14:23]
C
I, I be about half the distance I am from where my singles hold is.
- [14:28]
A
Okay.
- [14:29]
C
Does that make sense?
- [14:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. So you're cutting that area, whatever that hold point is at singles, you're cutting it in half. And if you were to describe it in a, in a measurement, how many, I mean, obviously it sounds like you're changing based on the height of the target. If the targets are really, really high, you might be holding a little higher. And if the targets are lower, you might be holding a little lower. Is that correct? Okay, so in a normal, a normal Bluebird standard ATA target, you know, 12, 13ft, you know, whatever. Do you think you're, you think you're looking, do you think you're looking halfway up with your hold point four or five feet or is that too high?
- [15:04]
C
Four or five feet wouldn't be too high.
- [15:06]
A
Okay, and then two, one or two feet or one to three feet in the handicap and then doubles. Are you up where that break point is on that first shot or are you below it? What do you do there?
- [15:19]
C
I, my, my issue is if I hold too low, I shoot too fast. So I would. Because I'm, So I would probably be at about the same height I would be for singles for the first shot.
- [15:36]
A
Okay, so, so, okay, so you're up in that zone there. It's still breaking the gun. You're looking through the beads like Ricky does and you're adjusting downward and handicap because of the geometry. But other than that, everything's pretty clean. Holding still, seeing the bird first. I mean, fundamental trap shooting.
- [15:53]
B
Yeah, so that's not, I mean, so you're, and you adjust accordingly the clubs you go to then. I mean. Or just by target height.
- [16:03]
C
Just accordingly.
- [16:05]
B
I mean, like, are, are you, when you go to a club, you know, most clubs are throwing a ten foot target usually. Now if the wind's coming in and they're going super high, are you going to even raise your whole point higher?
- [16:16]
C
I raise it, I raise it you
- [16:18]
B
just go to where you're comfortable.
- [16:20]
C
Yeah, right.
- [16:20]
B
It's just, it's just more of a comfort mount. Versus you're gonna set versus like me, I mean, I'm always on the house. So if it's throwing a 20 foot target or it's throwing a 10 foot target, I'm on the house and I just make the little extra move is what I do. Because growing up, you know, I, I haven't shot a ton in the Northwest. I have shot, you know, quite a few places and stuff. But in Nebraska, if we get high targets, you're always going to get some low targets in there too. So I, I just, you know, the Midwest. So I was like, you know what, I'm just going to keep it here and I can just make that extra move, you know, type of deal.
- [16:57]
C
I said, I just based on the conditions, don't always necessarily go super high. Because they're going high.
- [17:04]
B
Yeah.
- [17:04]
C
But you know, if, if they're all going high, then I can do that. But then sometimes there's places where you're like, you just said they're going to go. How you're gonna have some duckers, depending on if it's a crosswind or something like that.
- [17:15]
B
Yeah, especially nobody likes the duckers. No, no.
- [17:21]
A
I'd be like, when I'm, when I miss one, I'm like, oh, that dirty rotten ducker.
- [17:28]
B
I'm gonna use that. Not what you say. Zach, I have heard you.
- [17:32]
A
Hey, you know, I'm doing the best I can. I'm trying here, you know, but so, so I love that. As far as setup, you know, what type of gun are you shooting? Are you top single, unsingle, you know, point of impact? What's equipment that you're using?
- [17:47]
C
I'm using a K80UN single. I've got a pro soft stock on it that I love that I should have got sooner than I did. You got to get this. And I said, no, I'm doing okay. But then I got on that. Wow, he was right.
- [18:05]
B
Now, are you shooting the trap special? Are you shooting the old traditional style?
- [18:09]
C
The old one. The old traditional style.
- [18:11]
B
The traditional. I used to say the old Craig off. And, and Dieter corrected me and said it's the traditional.
- [18:16]
C
There you go.
- [18:18]
B
Sorry, I did, I used to call it that all the time. And he'd be like, he'd just shake his head at me and I was like, well I, I never shot one. And so, you know, now what length of barrels are you shooting?
- [18:30]
C
I've got a 32 single and a 30 over and under.
- [18:33]
B
Okay, so you do have the. It's it tradition because they don't make the 34 traditional and. Or they don't make the 32 traditional anymore.
- [18:41]
C
Yeah, I kind of got a story with that. Jim wanted me to buy a Krieg off and I said, no, I don't need one because I was shooting a Parazzi and actually I killed my Parazzi. I shot it to death. So I figured that. Well, I told him, okay, okay, I'll have a Krieg off if you can find me a 32 inch single and 30 inch over and unders. Because I figured it was a unit unicorn and they'd never find it.
- [19:04]
B
Find it. And he did it.
- [19:07]
C
So.
- [19:07]
B
Yeah, there's not a lot of them made. There was. And actually, I think I correct myself. I think you might be able to get a 32 inch in the traditional today. They were talking about that they. They had some barrels or something. And, and that's. That's funny because I was just talking to Chrissy, who's the. Chrissy Kramer, who's the gun sales manager for Kraff today. We were talking about barrel links and, and different things. So I should have asked that question.
- [19:34]
A
But so that's follow up with that in the future. So for, for your setup, do all three barrels shoot in the same spot or do you have the over under shooting different than the single barrel?
- [19:46]
C
Yeah, my under barrel shoots lower than my single barrel does. I mean, you know, point of impact is lower on that one.
- [19:53]
A
So on the over under.
- [19:55]
C
Yeah, I wish it would shoot higher, but it doesn't.
- [19:57]
A
So.
- [19:58]
B
Yeah, with the traditional. Yes. Yeah. The 30 inch fixed rib is in the traditional. It's probably only maybe 60, 40. Yeah.
- [20:11]
A
And so that unsingle. Where do you have it set to? On the, on the rib setting, what is it shooting roughly 80, 20, 90, 10. 100%.
- [20:20]
C
80, 20.
- [20:21]
A
80, 20. So. So you've got a little bit of a higher point of impact in that single barrel and the over unders flat. But not by choice. If you could have it at 80, 20, you probably would have it at 80, 20. But it's just the way that traditional gun locks up for you and sets for you.
- [20:37]
B
Correct.
- [20:37]
A
Yeah.
- [20:38]
B
You. You could possibly get the bottom barrel to shoot a little bit higher with changing the hanger on it.
- [20:43]
C
Yeah, I was gonna. I've done a little bit of that and I need to learn more about that.
- [20:49]
B
Yeah. So it depends on the. The hanger number in there. You probably. If it's shooting 60 40, you probably got a five or a six hanger in possibly. And you need to go the lower the number, the higher it shoots.
- [21:03]
C
Okay.
- [21:04]
B
So if it's a one, it's going to shoot the highest. Okay. And a seven, I think the seven's the most. But it that traditional, is it got the stainless choke tubes in it?
- [21:14]
C
No.
- [21:15]
B
Is it got titanium?
- [21:16]
C
Nope. It's got those fixed? No, it's got tubes in it but they're the little skinny black ones.
- [21:22]
B
But yeah, so that's. It's the stainless steel ones. So yeah. So the hangers on those, there's different hangers for the, you know, different error guns too on it.
- [21:31]
C
Well that makes sense.
- [21:33]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean on that type of thing too. I mean I know some people, and I'm not saying I recommend it or not, but I know some people that have those fixed rib bowler style guns and they've sent them off to do barrel work, whether it was Wilkinson or Briley or whatever company and just say, hey, can we get this thing to shoot a little bit higher? And you know, they can get another, you know, 10% out of a gun with some barrel work. I mean depending on before you bend it or anything. I mean I'm not a, A barrel.
- [21:59]
B
The over and unders are tough to bend. Correct, correct.
- [22:02]
A
But I know they can cut angle into that barrel at some level with the eccentric choke tubes. I mean I've kind of seen.
- [22:09]
B
Yeah, you can do it in the choke tubes. But yeah, it's.
- [22:12]
A
I've had that done with my old Perazzi. It was a Grand America 88 and I, that gun did not shoot anywhere where I wanted it on the over under. So they had choke tubes made and it, it, I mean it brought the pattern right where I wanted it and I really, I was thankful for that obviously. But yeah, but it sounds like you know, you shooting the same stuff we shoot the Craig Offs, which is good. And, and with that. I know you mentioned earlier you wish you would have changed the stock earlier. Is it mainly because of the recoil reduction that you really liked or what was the thing that you really loved about that?
- [22:47]
C
It fits.
- [22:48]
B
So and I, you went, did you go and get it custom fitted?
- [22:51]
C
It's the first one I've ever had custom fitted.
- [22:54]
B
Okay.
- [22:54]
C
I lucked into another one with my Parazzi at one point that it just. Somebody had it used and it actually was short and fit me and everything and it was very nice stock but I'd never had one done for myself and, and it was Phil Sims Did a very, very good job.
- [23:09]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Custom stock fitting. I tell all my students all the time, I'm like, if you really want to get more consistent, the, the stock fitting. I mean, the clinic I was just at, I think we changed out of the 10 people. I think I adjusted eight guns out of the 10. And it. And it. And all it is. And, and one of them, I literally moved the comb, you know, like the thickness of the piece of paper. And I said, okay, now you're perfect. And they went out and started smoking targs. They were like, wow. I didn't realize that'd make a difference. I said, well, absolutely, you know.
- [23:44]
A
Well, I like. And, and we talk about that a lot, but a lot of people get this misconception that moving the comb, one washer in any direction is going to change the point of impact drastically. And that's not what it is as much as it's eye alignment. I mean, it's. If you're, if you're not centered on that gun properly, if you're too far to the left or too far to the right, you're looking in a way that fights with your eyes. And I guess now that we're talking about eyes, you know, as, as a, as a, as a doctor that has done this your whole life, what are some good tips that you would give to people regarding their eyes and shooting? You know, Rick, the only thing looks better than these hats we're wearing right now is a bunch of gold and silver from Ron Prescott at Mid state precious metal. Show them the goods.
- [24:28]
B
Listen, all I got silver right now. I won't bring the gold out for
- [24:31]
A
Zach, but you know, I always want to get that.
- [24:33]
B
Gold shotgun shells, 10 ounce bars, folks. He could do anything for you. For all your shoot needs, give Ron Prescott a call. Midstate Precious metals dot com.
- [24:43]
A
He's a great guy. Support him. He supports all the shoots. He supports trap. Talk. If you're thinking gold or silver, you need to be thinking Ron Prescott at Midstate Precious metals. Thank you, Ron.
- [24:52]
B
That's right. Thanks for all the support.
- [24:53]
A
You know, Rick, when you're riding around your air conditioning and your nice can am and I'm walking, I'm thinking to myself, where do I get one of these things?
- [25:00]
B
At Big red motorsports, that's where you get one. George or Jason Lee, they'll take care of you, Zach.
- [25:06]
A
I mean, I need one. I'm tired of riding on the back of that cooler. I want to see sit inside that cab and roll around in style. I mean, my face is on the back, but help me out.
- [25:13]
B
Listen, I'm going to move your face to the bumper is where it's going to get moved for the new one, okay? All you need is a little quiche and we can take care of you. But listen, Big RedMotorsports.com thanks Jason and George Lee and Big Red Motorsports for all the support. They'll take care of you folks. And it's free delivery.
- [25:30]
A
You know, Ricky, I know you used it on your barrels, but do you even know what RGS stands for?
- [25:34]
B
No, Zach, what does it stand for?
- [25:35]
A
Really good.
- [25:36]
B
Well, that is true. It is good stuff, folks. I use it to clean my barrels and it does make them shine.
- [25:42]
A
Only problem is I wear white T shirts when I clean my barrels and I get them all messy, so I got to be better at that. But it gets all the plastic, all the gunk out. Give them a try, folks. They're great.
- [25:51]
B
That's right. Give RGS a try. We appreciate all the support. Hey, Zach, have you been out to 73 Pointers Ranch lately?
- [25:57]
A
You know, I have. Rick and Carla Burke have been great. I normally hunt pheasants and chucker down there, but now they got a brand new sporting clays facility and it is top notch. I shot it the other day, absolutely loved it. And if you guys haven't, you need to go give it a check out.
- [26:11]
B
Well, I'll have to come out and do a little hunting and we'll shoot
- [26:14]
A
some sporty clays then 45 minutes from St. Louis Airport. Come see it. If you haven't, guys, check them out. You know, Rick, I know you've had a lot of involvement with them since the beginning, since they started. But I really love the way that the shot tracker, you know, catches the doubles from shot to shot with the looping. You know, tell the folks what they need to know about that system.
- [26:31]
B
It's the best system out there. It's like having a coach on the end of your barrel, like we say, but going especially in double from first shot to second shot. You can see it on the graph. You can see it on video.
- [26:41]
A
Yeah, I mean, if you talk about that J hook with Sean Holly and all them, I mean, it'll literally show that loop and I think that's really powerful if you're doing it. They've supported the show since the beginning. They love trap shooting. They're great people. Give them a shot, folks. They make a great product.
- [26:54]
B
Take aim technologies.
- [26:56]
C
Well, always get your eyes checked on a regular basis. Don't think that what you have is Good enough. I personally don't need my glasses for driving, but I know I see better if I wear them for shooting. So a person, you know, a lot of people say, well, I see just fine. Well, you do well enough to get around town and know where you're going. But you want something even more fine tuned for trying to hit your little target, traveling at a fast speed and have regular exams. I mean, if you want to do it every two years, every year, it's a good idea, just so. And also, there's kind of a mental benefit to that too because, you know, well, I just got my eyes checked, so I got to rule that one out. You're looking at.
- [27:34]
B
I get mine checked every six to seven months.
- [27:37]
C
There you go.
- [27:38]
B
Refract, you know, just to go in, just to check. Because, you know, well, with weight loss, you know, I've lost almost £90, £100 now. And I could tell there's a little change too with some stuff. And, and then of course my up close vision has gotten worse. Like right when I hit 50, you know, now I turned 51, but it was like, wow. And that's why I have to wear my, my trusty dusty readers. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm always, I told my eye doctor, I said, is there any way we could fix this? And he said, it ain't worth it. Just, he said, you got too many cons versus pros to, to do stuff now. So in speaking of the eyes, is there, is there certain things that it. You know, because I get asked all the time, you know, is, well, we don't have anybody that knows about shooting in our area, you know, what, what should I tell them? And I've always told people, well, tell me, you want to have eyes like a fighter pilot.
- [28:33]
C
Yeah.
- [28:33]
B
You know, because I had one student that they did, they went and got their eyes checked and they came back, you know, like three months later, they come to another class and they were still struggling. And I said, well, do you get lenses? Well, yeah, these are, they said, these are what I needed and blah, blah, blah. And he put them on. He's like, I still don't see stuff that crisp. And I said, well, would they, would you do your script at. And he goes, oh. He said, I was like 20, 25. And I was like, why didn't you do like 20, 20 minimum to 2010 if you can, right? And he said, well, he said you didn't need any of that. I said, well, don't go back to that eye doctor, you know, so when you check people's eyes, what do you always do you do them at 2010. Do you do. I mean, because I know you do a lot of shooters in the Northwest.
- [29:20]
C
Yeah, I. I don't aim for the visual acuity in particular, although I will show them the smaller rows, too, you know, But I start out at 2020 and then see if they can do the next row more. What I do is actually leave the exam room and go out into our front optical area and put the lenses into what's called a trial frame and have them actually look out the window and make sure that they can see at the distance that they want to see. Because.
- [29:49]
B
Okay.
- [29:49]
C
You know, in the exam room, simulated distance is not the same as looking out into real space.
- [29:54]
B
So.
- [29:54]
C
Yes, more often than not.
- [29:57]
B
Do you wish. Okay. And that. And that makes sense because I know a lot of people. I've heard that, you know, a lot of students, and they're like, well, yeah, they do it. And I'm in a dark room and everything looks good.
- [30:09]
A
And.
- [30:10]
B
And I learned this. And correct me if I'm wrong. So even doing, you know, one eye and then doing the other eye, you also get a different script when you open both eyes. Okay. And why is that? What. What causes that? Or.
- [30:23]
C
I mean, my theory, which people could dispute it, is that if you're only using the one eye, it's probably working a little bit harder to try and see better. And so that will alter the prescription. And then when both eyes are working together, usually it backs off the prescription backs off a little bit.
- [30:40]
B
It.
- [30:40]
C
Because.
- [30:41]
B
Okay.
- [30:41]
C
And helping each other. That's.
- [30:43]
A
I see. So if you're someone that's shooting with one eye, you might have a different prescription with the eye closed than if you had both eyes open and got the prescription. Possibly, potentially. I mean, and. And. And so, I mean, we hear. I mean, I'm not old enough to complain about my eyes yet, and if I do, people smack out of the newspaper. But the reality is. The reality is, like, I hear from all the time people talking about, you know, floaters, or they're talking about, you know, in a. In an area where they need their eyes to focus all the way. I was just talking to Don Bud, and I say, you know, is there a reason why you're like the Statue of Liberty when you mount your gun for 22 seconds before you call pull? And. And he's like, well, my eyes are dry, and they're not. They're not focusing in. When I call pole is when they finally lock in and I can see.
- [31:31]
B
Right.
- [31:32]
A
So. So when people are having these issues, you know, what are the things they could be doing to fix it? Is there anything they can do? Is there, you know, is it diet? Is it. Is it eye exercise? Is it vitamins? I mean, are there things that they can do?
- [31:45]
C
Excellent question. I do believe in eye vitamins. Recently we've had some interesting changes in my world related to the retina and not too much zinc and things like that. So I'm kind of on the fence as to what either even to tell people to get vitamins A. Well, beta carotene. So that's part of vitamin A and then vitamin C, vitamin E, a little bit of zinc. But I would say at this point, not more than 25 milligrams a day. Bilberry extract or just eat blueberries. Eat half a cup of blueberries every day. Stay hydrated. People that have dry eyes, what I do if the weather's not great, dry, I actually carry my eye drops and I put it in after every trap.
- [32:30]
B
Okay.
- [32:31]
C
Put the drops in, put my shells in my pockets, let it dissipate a little bit, and then go back out and shoot. I have to do it that often, and then that way, I think of it as prevention. If you wait till they're really dry and then you put a drop in there, you just need a whole lot more drops than you do if you just prevent it from happening at all.
- [32:46]
A
Yeah, makes sense.
- [32:47]
B
Is there a certain. So I use. I think. Is it called terror or Thera Tears? Yeah, I think. Is it? Okay. I think my eye doctor had recommended that one time, and. And I looked at the price, I was like, is there anything else crazy?
- [33:02]
C
They're crazy. Yeah.
- [33:03]
A
Like, where's the. Where's the discount one? I want the equate eyes.
- [33:08]
B
Is that going for the Walmart special
- [33:10]
A
now where the Kirkland drops it? Yeah.
- [33:13]
C
Yeah.
- [33:14]
B
Well, and that is. That is good. Now, what do you think? So I. I see this a lot, like, with the script and stuff and. And colors, because I'm always, you know, people like, well, what color do you use? Why? I use a bronze. I use this blah, blah. And the only reason I use a bronze is, like, we talked earlier, you know, off the show was, you know, because of Mike Reinert. He made me a set of lenses that were bronze, and I'm like, man, I don't need these dark things. And. But it calmed my eyes. And at the end of the day, I wasn't tired, so I explained this to some students, and I get a lot of this? Well, it's just too dark. I'm not going to deal with that. I'd rather squint. And I'm like, yeah, but you're costing yourself targets by doing that. So do you get into that? I mean, do you actually do lenses at your practice yourself?
- [33:58]
C
Yeah, we. We sell lenses, actually, right this. At this point, we're selling deco product.
- [34:04]
B
Okay.
- [34:05]
C
Yeah. And I, you know, you mentioned bronze. I used to use bronze a lot in the past. I liked it a lot. I had a polarized bronze with a little bit of purple in it. And lately I've been just using a. It's called a V light, which is a combination of vermilion and purple. And when I can get them polarized, I like that a lot, but I can't always get it polarized anymore.
- [34:27]
B
So really, is that the just getting
- [34:29]
A
the product or polarization?
- [34:32]
B
Yeah, I mean, yeah,
- [34:35]
C
maybe it has to do with their Chinese people buying up all the opticals. They just don't make it anymore because it's not a good market sell.
- [34:42]
B
Now, do you. Do you do your own lenses there in house, or do you have a lab outside a house that does it?
- [34:48]
C
We. We used to have a lab that was consistently making lenses, but we lost our optician. So now we're doing a whole more of it that we order it out and. And then if somebody needs something and they broke the. Their glasses and they can't get anything, we do have somebody that can edge the lenses for them if they need to on certain prescriptions.
- [35:07]
A
But.
- [35:08]
C
But I do miss having my tint unit for changing my tints.
- [35:13]
B
So that. That's. We. We told this on. On my episode, which was episode one. I used to tint my own lenses back in the day. I would take clay targets into the lab that my eye doctor owned and I would tint certain lenses. And it was the coolest thing ever because I remember one time I sent a set of them to. I remember Della McClure that sold Decop products, you know, and Della, I gave her the lenses. I said, you know, can you get these? Oh, yeah, no problem. She sent them in and Bud sent a deal back and said, who made these? She calls me and she's like, rick, Bud wants to know. And I called him and because I knew him and, and I, you know, I said, what. What's the question? He goes, who did these? I said, I did. What do you mean you did? I told the story. And he goes, okay. He goes, if you want me to copy lenses like this, he goes, I need to know the percentage of this you used, the time frame it was in there to the second, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And he goes. And also the age of the product that you're using.
- [36:18]
C
Yeah.
- [36:19]
B
And I was like, what, the balls?
- [36:21]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:22]
B
And I was like, oh. I go. Because I had, like. I'd put blue blocker in it and then strip. Put it in a stripper, strip it out, and it leave like 5% of it in there. And. But it was so cool that it just popped that target a little extra, and I don't have that ability to do that anymore. So. I understand your pain with missing that.
- [36:43]
A
You know, Ricky's just a. He's a jack of all. He just gets it done. He's tinted lenses, he's logging, he's bronzing. Well, he's done. You know, I mean, he's. He's done a lot of stuff. I will give him that. I mean, you can't. You can't hold that against.
- [36:57]
B
Hey, hey. You got to be able to see. But, you know, like you were saying about that, and that's. Now, is there a certain color that you recommend to shooters or is it just like, whatever, better for you?
- [37:09]
C
I think, yeah, it's best for them to actually find a tint sample to look at and not necessarily the stuff they can get out on the Internet, because what they look like on the Internet is not the. The same. So if you can find somebody that's a vendor at a shoot and actually go look at their samples, that's going to be your best bet.
- [37:23]
B
Yeah, that's what I figured. I mean, Zach and I tell people that, but sometimes they don't.
- [37:28]
A
They'll.
- [37:29]
B
They'll listen, but they won't. They're not doctors.
- [37:31]
A
You know, we're. We're just.
- [37:32]
B
We're not doctors.
- [37:34]
A
Trap shooters. We're doing the best we can with this information. Most people don't believe us, so we gotta bring on some real official, official people like yourself. So I want to circle back because, you know, you were talking about the hydration of the eyes, you were talking about vitamins, and we just kinda glanced over a lot of that. And I know a lot of shooters are gonna wanna get into the nitty gritty. You know, why is it important from a eye doctor's perspective for our eyes to not get dry? What happens when the eye gets dry?
- [38:02]
C
The dryness can actually cause the eyes to want to tear, so you get extra tears being produced. So you're like looking through a waterfall or. For me, my Eyes get so dry that they just get blurry. So. And then, you know, then I got a blink and you know who can blink in the middle of making your shot? Yeah.
- [38:23]
A
So the dryness can create blurriness. So for people that are dealing with blurriness, maybe step one, after getting the eyes checked, let's check hydration of the eyes using a high quality eye drop. Now, now for you. On, on, on. You said that Ricky's brand was good. Is there any other brands that you specifically recommend or you really like?
- [38:44]
C
I do like the Thera tears and there's a new one on the market within the last year or so called Ivizia. So it's IV I Z I A and I like it because it's a preservative free drop. So you don't have preservatives sitting on your eyes all the time. And. But it's in a bottle. It used to be you can only get little unit dose things, but now it's.
- [39:04]
B
Yeah.
- [39:05]
C
And. And it's. And it's like it has less thickening in it. So. Okay. I kind of like that for the. How it feels on my eyes.
- [39:15]
B
Yeah, that's how the Thera tears. I couldn't do it. I tried it at a shoot one time, like in between rounds, and our squads tend to not mess around and want to go right back out. And I had to hang back and I was like. Because I put it in. I was like, okay. And I'm like, oh, yeah, this ain't good. And I'm rubbing my eyes. I'm like, you got some goo in there.
- [39:35]
A
You're rolling.
- [39:36]
B
And it is, it's a little bit. It's just a little on the more heavier foil, I'll say.
- [39:41]
A
The viscous side.
- [39:43]
B
Yeah, the viscous, exactly. You know, so. So that's good, you know, for our listeners out there to know that.
- [39:49]
A
Well, that makes sense now. Now, as far as dietary, are there diets that are more beneficial for your eyes? And then on the other side of that, are there diets that are, that are bad? Are there foods that people should avoid if they're trying to have optimum vision? I just love the way they're covering all the shoots across the country. The content, the pictures, what they're doing online, what they're doing on Facebook, Instagram. What do you think?
- [40:11]
B
Yeah, Traption usa, it's a great magazine. They are the official magazine of our podcast and we are the official podcast of Traption usa. So we really appreciate it.
- [40:22]
A
That's really cool. And what they Got is a deal right now. If you put Trap Talk P in for the print version and Trap Talk D for the digital version, it's 19.99 for the print and 9.99 for the digital for one year. You're not going to find a better deal. So subscribe today. You won't regret it.
- [40:36]
B
Absolutely. Thank you for all the support.
- [40:37]
A
Rick, I really think that Gunfit is probably the most important part of shooting big scores. Would you agree with that?
- [40:42]
B
Absolutely. I think Gunfit is the most important thing.
- [40:46]
A
I mean, most of the top all Americans are shooting custom stocks. I know when I got my custom stock, my scores went up. I broke 100 straight from the 27 within seven days. I mean, I'm sure your experience has been similar.
- [40:56]
B
Yeah, I've been shooting a custom gun stock for 20 years. Winning. If you want to win championships, get a win of gun stock.
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, call Bobby, call Luke. I mean, we got the stock whisperer over there, Bill. Give them a shot. They're great and they know what they're doing.
- [41:09]
B
Absolutely. Winig.com check them out.
- [41:11]
A
You know, Rick, I was at the Autumn grand and the Nevada State shoot and I was just really impressed with how I could see where my squad was when I was up. Just the technology, the ability to be able to see what options I've played if the event's paid or not. I mean, what's your experience with, with the app?
- [41:26]
B
Listen, SOS Clay's app. It's the best thing out there, folks. You can see everything. It's great. You see your option payouts. You can see when you're up, you can see who's paid on your squad. Sometimes Zach doesn't pay on time, but it's okay.
- [41:38]
A
I get out there. But what I really think is, is for gun clubs, it's free. Call Greg, get a hold of him. He'll set you up. He'll get you running. Right. And if you pay the the premium once a year, you get free pre squatting in all the shoots. And that's the best value in trap shoot.
- [41:51]
B
Absolutely. SOS clays.com hey, Ricky, we got to take a second.
- [41:55]
A
We got to thank Outlaw Engineering and the Freston family for supporting trap shooting and supporting Trap Talk podcast. They've been here for us. They're great people, you know. You know them real well, Rick.
- [42:04]
B
Yeah, I, I've known Randy since 1988. R2 and, and the family, they're great supporter of the show coupe. Just won the Autumn Grand Handicap championship with a 97 I know.
- [42:15]
A
I was there. I got to interview him.
- [42:16]
B
It was great.
- [42:17]
A
I was so proud of him. He's doing a great job.
- [42:19]
B
RA Wears Coop.
- [42:20]
A
He's somewhere with that big buckle. He's having fun.
- [42:22]
B
So that's.
- [42:23]
A
You need anything engineering related, get a hold Outlaw. They'll take great care of you. Great folks.
- [42:28]
B
Thanks for all the support. Outlaw.
- [42:31]
C
McDonald's.
- [42:33]
B
Yeah.
- [42:34]
A
Zach.
- [42:35]
B
Now, wait a second. Now wait a second, Laura. I did win a few handicaps meeting some McMuffin.
- [42:42]
A
That's just because you. Raw talent. Okay. There's some people that don't necessarily do it the right way, but they can get away with a lot more because they're so talented. But, you know, people like myself, we need to look for every edge we can get.
- [42:53]
C
So I think a diet high in antioxidants. So dark leafy greens, and then I always just say the variety of colors of fruits and vegetables. You know, oranges and apples and grapes and blueberries are excellent for the eyes because they do have some. The antioxidant factor there.
- [43:11]
B
In there. Yeah, just go by. I'm gonna recommend right now Laura to go buy stock and blueberries, because Zach will be going and buying bundles of bushels.
- [43:20]
A
I'm gonna. Bundles.
- [43:21]
B
Bushels.
- [43:21]
A
I'm gonna have bushels of blueberries in my Remington bag, and I'm gonna be throwing them in like popcorn on my way to traction.
- [43:27]
B
Next time you see Zach, he's gonna look like Oompa Loompa. That's what he's gonna look like.
- [43:32]
C
I need blueberries. I'll come find you.
- [43:34]
A
Like, I've been hanging out with a bunch of Smurfs.
- [43:38]
C
And frozen blueberries are good, too. They don't have to be fresh.
- [43:42]
A
Fresh. Okay, that's good. So we can blend them up. Little banana smoothie action, something like that. Keep it rolling. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I. I see you. I see where you're coming from. So I like.
- [43:51]
B
I'm gonna get on my barrel. Powered by blueberry.
- [43:54]
C
Blueberry fatty acids. So eat your. Eat your nuts.
- [43:58]
A
Walnuts and fishes, too, right? I mean, would there be. I mean, like, a wild salmon and things like that that are high in the. The antioxidants and the Omega 3 fatties. Those would be all quality things, I'm sure, for the. For the eyes. I've heard walnuts are fantastic for the eyes, but I mean, that. That might have been just a rumor somewhere, but no, there's.
- [44:17]
C
There's some good oils in there for sure.
- [44:19]
A
So for the people that are dealing with the floaters, because We. We did kind of pass over that. Is there anything they can do? Are there any exercises or things that they can work on to help with that other than going in and getting the surgery?
- [44:34]
C
No, there's not a lot that can be done because they are actually inside the eye in the. What's called the vitreous fluid, and they're just bopping around in there. They don't hurt anything. But if they're big enough and there's enough of them coalesce together, then they kind of drift by. I don't know what to say. My analogy would be looking at a fish tank and the fish flies, floats by kind of thing. Some people, you're talking about somebody that takes forever to call, they're waiting for their floaters to settle, holding the eye still. They will kind of start to settle, but then when you move the eye, the fluid moves around, and then they're moving around again. Yeah, I just try and reassure people that they're not hurting anything. And you can see on the other side of them. So if you know they're there, but you look further beyond them. Them and concentrate your vision out beyond where they're at, you can kind of ignore them a little bit more.
- [45:26]
B
Ignore them. So, Zach, we can tell Don Bud he doesn't have an excuse anymore, and he can. It takes him 17 minutes to shoot one round of singles.
- [45:35]
A
So look past the floaters. We're gonna. So we're just gonna tell people now?
- [45:39]
B
Hey, I'm gonna tell him. We get off this podcast. I'm calling Don, and say, we just got professional help for you from a doctor.
- [45:48]
A
They're there, but just look past them. They're no big deal if they're right there in your shot.
- [45:53]
C
Well, like I said, bigger than others.
- [45:55]
A
So, yeah, he must have floaters the size of Kansas in his eyes, because. Yeah, he's got some.
- [46:01]
B
Well, and. And the question on. On that side, you know, on the floater side. So we just had the episode with Cooper Freston on, and Cooper was shot in the eye with a bb, and it. So when you take your finger and do like this, that's his vision now, because he's actually got a hole on the outside of his eye, you know, on the side, because the. The BB lodged against the. The retina nerve, and they got it out with a magnet. It took the doctors, like, five hours and nine magnets, and they got it. Yeah, it was unreal. So he's. He's got a lot of blood flow. Blood in his eyeball still. So he goes to the. Is it. I think it's the Moran Institute in Salt Lake City. And, sir, they're some of the top, you know, doctors. But I know there's always other stuff out there, and so I always ask. Because Cooper's a student of mine and. And Randall, R2, his dad, which I'm sure you know who. Or his. Randy's dad, R1, was president of the ATA in 1989.
- [47:06]
C
Okay.
- [47:07]
B
So I'm always asking different questions. I. I had a student that's an eye doctor, and I'm like, hey, what do you. You know? And they' know there's this or that, but Cooper still has blood in his eye, so he's struggling a little bit with the seeing, and he, you know, he just won the Autumn Grand Handicap. Oh. But he's shoot with his left eye a little bit, too, and I've kind of helped him with that. Is there any. I mean, with these floaters. I mean, he's. He's 16 years old. He's got this hole. The hole probably never heal, will it? I mean, in the eye. Does the eye close up at all or.
- [47:42]
C
No, on the white part of the eye or. You said the retina, it's on the
- [47:46]
B
outside of his eye. Yeah, it's. It's in the white part.
- [47:49]
C
Okay.
- [47:51]
B
But it is. I showed a picture on the. On the podcast, and it. I'll show it to you. Let me find it here. I get so many. Here it is. So actually. Well, if it'll. Hold on a second, it's got. There it goes. So there's a. There's a picture of the eye. So on all the. The dark spots is. Let me see if the dark spot is blood.
- [48:19]
C
As I say, this is inside.
- [48:20]
B
Yes.
- [48:21]
C
Okay, well.
- [48:22]
B
And here's. Here's actually the hole.
- [48:24]
C
Interesting. Okay, Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
- [48:27]
B
That's actually the. The tear. So it's on the outside of the eye. But since your eyes flip, his vision on the inside is what's affected.
- [48:35]
C
Yeah.
- [48:36]
B
So.
- [48:37]
C
And probably won't heal. I mean, it'll heal so that it's not fragile anymore and won't rip anymore. But it would. It would be. It's like. It'll be like a scar. Even your skin, you know, you damage your skin, you get the scar and you get that bump that's there. So it'd be like that.
- [48:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's what I figured. Because my dad, years ago, I remember one time he went in for an eye examination with my current eye doctor, and he sat there and the eye doctor went, what? Because he put the magnification deal up. And he's like, dad goes, oh, yeah, I had a piece of steel in my eye because he was an iron worker. And he's like, I think there's a piece still there.
- [49:17]
A
He says, I. You know, he says, I got it in my eye, Went home, had a couple beers, called it a night. Never went to the doctor.
- [49:22]
B
That's probably my dad. I mean, my dad, he's like.
- [49:25]
A
He's like, I ain't got insurance for this crap.
- [49:27]
B
Yeah, we're just moving forward. Go to work tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.
- [49:31]
A
So.
- [49:31]
B
So is there anything? I mean, there's not. Like I told Cooper jokingly, you know, I. I talk to him quite a bit all the time. I'm like, ah, Coop, we'll just send you over to China and they'll just pull your eye out, put a new one in, you'll be good, you know, but there's really. I mean, is there a possibility of stuff in the future that could, you know, I don't know if there's stem cell stuff or did they.
- [49:54]
C
Have they. You were talking about floaters earlier. They can remove the vitreous and the floaters. Have they done anything like that with him?
- [50:01]
B
They said that it. It would make the floaters worse.
- [50:05]
C
Okay. So they're probably waiting because he's so young and let. Watching it.
- [50:09]
B
Okay.
- [50:10]
C
Recover more.
- [50:11]
B
Okay.
- [50:12]
C
Before they do anything like that.
- [50:14]
B
Okay.
- [50:15]
C
You know, several years of healing probably before they want to try and do any kind of surgery.
- [50:20]
B
Surgery. Okay.
- [50:22]
C
They don't want to make worse what he already has.
- [50:24]
B
Well, that's. Yeah. And that's what I wondered. Because, you know, we're always asking and I'm always trying to find information out, you know, and, you know, just to see. And so that's what I help.
- [50:37]
A
And there's. There's other people, I'm sure, that are experiencing eye issues that are listening to this, and they're learning new things today that we've never talked about. So, you know, there is a topic that I want to discuss that we've had a lot of people question and ask over time is about eye dominancy, whether you're right eye dominant, left eye dominant. Now, from a medical professional standpoint, you know, what makes a person dominant on one eye versus the other, and is there anything they can do to shift that dominance or to train that dominancy over time?
- [51:09]
C
One thing I'll tell people from the beginning also is if you got a brand new shooter and they look like they're cross dominant. Get their eyes checked, because if their dominant eye is not seeing clearly, then the other eye could try to take over dominance. So that's number one. There are some. And I don't do it, but there are vision training and therapy that can be done to try and work on that. So a lot of it depends on how dominant they are in their dominant eye, whether they would work or not, or if they're a young person and there's a chance and there's more flexibility in the system, then the vision training might be helpful.
- [51:49]
B
Are you talking about like the, the bead rope deal? Do you use that at all? I know I have a student that uses that. You know, where you look here, then look here, then look here and you try to, you know, I know that's some eye therapy stuff because my oldest son, his eyes, when, when you, you know, put your finger like this, his eyes wouldn't cross. One would. The other would still look. Look. So we had to put him through eye therapy and. And he wasn't shooting. So I said, well, I'm not really worried about your eye. No, I was just kidding. I just said, all right, well, you know, it's not cheap eye therapy, but it worked and it helped him, and so we were fortunate. And then Tyler, the youngest that shoots a lot, he had a little bit of issues. Well, we got him started right away on some stuff and then boom, it, you know, it cleared up. But it's getting your eyes to work together, because I talk about that a little bit with students where they're like, well, I'm shooting along and then all of a sudden, boom, my left eye will. I see the bear all the time. And I'm like, well, there's something going on. You know, you need to get your eyes checked. Oh, yeah, I had them checked in 96. I'm like, you know, that just blows my mind. I'm like, guys, if we can't see the target, you can't shoot it correctly.
- [52:58]
C
So if it's something that comes on, like it, you know, they're not seeing the left side of the barrel, and then suddenly they are. Get your eyes checked. Get.
- [53:05]
B
Get your eyes checked. So you, you talk about a little bit of, you know, doing some. Some eye stuff. Is there any other major stuff that. Or little things that can be done to, you know, help the shooters out there without. Yeah, I mean, taking the vitamins and keeping healthy and, and that sort of stuff. But anything else that you recommend.
- [53:24]
C
And we're not necessarily talking about cross Dominance, Right?
- [53:27]
B
Yeah.
- [53:27]
C
Okay. No, I think that's, you know, eye health.
- [53:31]
B
Okay.
- [53:32]
C
You know, treat your. Think your eyes are part of your body. If you want your body healthy, you got to do the right things, and it carries over into the eyes, too.
- [53:41]
A
Now, I think you just. You said a lot of important things today. You said, you know, vitamins. You said a dietary. You've said, you know, obviously using eye drops. You've talked about hydration, because if you're dehydrated, the eyes aren't working properly. And I know a lot of people that are, you know, they're drinking 13 Dr. Peppers a day and no waters. And I mean, at some point, like, your body, like, things are gonna start giving somewhere or.
- [54:07]
B
The energy drinks, Zach, the energy drinks.
- [54:09]
A
Red Bulls monsters. I mean, the kids with those white cans, I mean, they're pounding them left and right and left and right, and. And they're not mixing water in with that. Right? And it's. It's. It's gotta have some issue and going on with the eye therapy. I've seen some products out there that.
- [54:25]
C
That.
- [54:26]
A
That, you know, that some people have used. And when we had. When I was at Lindenwood University, we had a. A coach come in called Craig Hancock, and he was Vincent Hancock's father, and he worked with a lot of shooters and came in and actually gave us some really cool stuff. And there was a device, and I have no idea what the name of this device was, but you'd put it, like, right here at your nose, and it have lights on a table, and it go, like, from left to right and back to forth, and you were trying to follow the dots, and they would move at different speeds based on the different drills. But you would work on that. And I did it, I mean, 100 times, probably. You'd go into the office, and we were working. We just, you know, pass time and sit in there, and we'd all trade, you know, five minutes each. And after we were done, like, I could feel in the back of my eyes, my eyes were tired, like. Like. Like the actual strain from, you know, moving my eyes and really looking intently and hard. Is there any type of drills without buying stuff, you know, that people can do in their houses to exercise their eyes? That would be easy and simple.
- [55:28]
C
There is. We call it a Marsden Ball. Probably Dr. Marsden thought of it.
- [55:33]
A
You know, Rick, I just love having the peace of mind and knowing that if I'm traveling or I'm flying, something happens, I can get my winig and my Craig off replaced quickly and easily. Without costing me a bunch of money.
- [55:42]
B
Yeah, exactly. The gun and trophy insurance. It's the best out there to ensure your guns. Sure. Your trophy, animals, everything.
- [55:49]
A
Thank you to the whole Cushman family for supporting the show and everything they do for trap shooting.
- [55:53]
B
Absolutely. Get a hold of Cole Cushman and he'll get you set up.
- [55:56]
C
And basically just taking like a softball size ball. And then you can put, you can either just put dots, red dot, you know, different colored dots on it, or you can put letters on there. Okay, abcd, whatever. And then you basically move the ball so that it goes away from you, but then as it's coming back, just make sure you don't hit yourself with it. Then you just pick a letter to look at as it's, as it's moving back and forth. So you've got something that's got a continuous movement and you're watching that letter as it's moving away from you and coming closer to you. And you can also do it so that it's going side to side and you're just concentrating on it. So it's kind of like your, your dots, you know, machine, but you're doing it with a ball.
- [56:36]
A
And when I was young, we didn't. I didn't have one of those to buy, but what I did was I took a tennis ball and I stuck a nail in it and wrapped it on a rope and then just took some tape and wrote like numbers and letters on it because someone told me the same thing. And I'm like, where the heck are we gonna get this? And my dad's like, I'm not spending 1995 on those stupid ball. He says, give me a damn tennis
- [56:54]
B
ball in the money.
- [56:56]
A
Big daddy wasn't spending a dollar on that. So he's like, we'll make this stupid thing. And so we got this, you know, this, this engineered artifact and I've probably got laying around my house somewhere. If I find it, I'll. I'll take a picture of it, put it on the show. But it was just, you know, a tennis ball and it had. Had, you know, different stuff written on it. And I'd like, okay, watch the seven. Okay, look for the A, look for the Z. Look for the. And it would be moving and you would. And I would try to, like, keep my head still and just like follow it around. And you would feel like strain, like there was some strain. And, you know, I, I don't feel that strain as much anymore. Like maybe when you're looking too much.
- [57:33]
B
Yeah, not working well, not that here. And here's one thing I used to do is the ceiling fan. I turn the ceiling fan on and I would pick a blade and try to follow it. And I would do that for like 10 seconds. You get done, you're like, I'd get
- [57:46]
A
dizzy if I did that. I'd be running. I'd be running in the bathroom. No way I could do. It'd be game over for me.
- [57:52]
C
When I'm driving, I'll pick a reflector way far away down the road and basically peripherally have it in my peripheral vision and watch it until it passes by and then jump back forward and find another. Just.
- [58:05]
B
Just to try to exercise.
- [58:07]
A
Yeah, these are all working your eyes in general. Working your eyes in general. Looking at things moving and, and just kind of using them now for people now because, I mean, kids ourself, they always said when I was a kid, like, don't sit too close to the TV or eyes will burn out. And now we've got these phones and we're sitting here like this all day, scrolling and looking like, what do you think about when people talk about blue light blocking glasses and being on their phones too much? Like, is there any studies or medical stuff about that that, that you think makes sense?
- [58:39]
C
I, I agree that the blue light is a thing. And so the blue light glasses for your computer are a good idea. You also, on all of your devices, laptops, tablets, phones, you have a setting in there for blue light. So if you just put in your little box there, blue light, and then it should pop up into settings. On the iPhone, I think it's called Night Shift. And just set it up for 24 hours and you've always got a blue light filter on your device. And on Android, my Android, they call it Comfort View.
- [59:13]
A
Comfort View.
- [59:13]
C
Then you've always got it on your device. Yeah, well, that's good. Yeah. And then it's good for everybody to actually not be on your device. Some people say two hours before you go to bed. And what it does there is the pineal gland is overstimulated when you're looking at your device. And that is what produces melatonin. That tells us it's time to go to sleep. So it just keeps you awake. You think you're doing it so you fall asleep, but it's stimulating you that you won't fall asleep. And, well, no, sleep's good for us too.
- [59:46]
A
Yes, we're messing ourselves up. I mean, your pineal gland, you're. You're getting stimulation from there. You can't Sleep. Your eyes are getting tired from looking at this thing, obviously, and you just keep going and you keep going and. No good.
- [59:57]
B
That's interesting. I just set my. My. The. The blue light on my phone, and it changes it to almost like a red.
- [60:05]
A
Yellow, a yellowish reddish. Yeah, yeah, I've seen it before. And. And now we're gonna have to watch out because Ricky's got this phone setting. He's gonna be hitting everything now. He's. He's on a tear. His eyes are gonna start working better.
- [60:16]
B
I'm coming for you, Nanini.
- [60:18]
A
He's. He's always trying to get an edge, this guy.
- [60:22]
B
I'm telling you. Hey, hey, you gotta try what you can do, you know, you're what, 17, 18 years younger than me? So, you know, it's.
- [60:30]
A
It's a minute.
- [60:31]
B
It's gotta. Gotta make a difference, you know, so. No, this has been great, though.
- [60:36]
A
You gotta take that, Laura. We can wait a second and let it. We'll just wait a second. No, no, you're fine. Just let it roll.
- [60:43]
B
It'd be fine.
- [60:45]
A
That's one of those things where we'll edit out the ring. I'm like, oh,
- [60:50]
C
it wasn't my cell phone.
- [60:51]
A
It was another phone. Yeah, I mean, we've. We've touched on so many great things about the eyes. And when we've talked about dominancy, we've talked about eye exercises, we've talked about hydration, we've talked about diet, we've talked about, you know, almost everything. I guess the one thing that we haven't spoken on deeply is. And, and. And I don't want to get, like, too much personal opinion on this. And maybe you can't say one way or the other because every case is different. But, but what do you think about when people are being recommended to do these surgeries like Lasik and things like that, when they're shooters? I mean, do the pros outweigh the cons? I mean, is there. Is it something they should be considering? Is it something they should be worried about? I mean, what do you think?
- [61:33]
C
LASIK is a good procedure, but it works best for people who are nearsighted. So people that have. Well, and it can work for astigmatism, too. So people who are more farsighted. The LASIK procedure itself is not going to be very helpful. There's a lot of things going on in our area right now where they're promoting rle. It's called refractive lens exchange.
- [61:53]
A
Yes.
- [61:54]
C
They're taking out the lens, which becomes A cataract. And they're putting a implant in intraocular lens or IOL to fill that space and actually help. It changes your prescription too. So they can, they can make it so that your vision better for distance in that process. There's a type of lens that's called an extended range of focus. So what it does is it allows people to be less reliant on a pair of reading glasses after they've had this procedure done. The classic one is it would only work for far or near, and then you needed glasses for what it doesn't cover. So now they've got this extended range of focus that I am on the fence about for athletes. And the reason is it actually has. They're like diffraction zones. Have you ever seen that on a lens with all the little spirals on it? So that's what the IOL has in it. So that can, it will have, you know, like alternating near and far vision within those different little zones. And so it can make things less pristine than what we know we see. Now I see you guys with the younger eyes and have had really good air pilot eyes that could allow a person to be more comfortable with their daily activities. But I'm on the fence about what it would do for athletes and how good you want your vision to be, particularly for a shooting sport where your target's moving.
- [63:18]
A
Yeah. So that, so if I'm hearing you correctly, that's going to make it generally better, but not specifically better for, for a specific task like looking at a clay bird for that area. You know, our own vision might be the, the, the way to go with that. But if it becomes a issue of daily life, like, hey, I can't get through the day because of all these other issues, then they're doing it for lifestyle reasons, not for hitting the clay target reason.
- [63:44]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's. So I, I had a friend, just so you know.
- [63:49]
C
Yeah. That's not that it's not the same as lasik, which is a surface thing.
- [63:53]
B
Yeah. And that's. So they're doing that at a, at a. In Omaha, Nebraska. I think there was some. It's been a bunch of commercials ran on social media and then of course, you know, TV too. But they were doing something that, you know, yes, we can. If you have stigmatism. So I have astigmatism in my right eye. That's what started my whole deal. I don't need glasses to drive. I can see good, no problem. But to shoot it just with astigmatism, it really Shows up in the low light conditions, you know, and I didn't know that. So then, boom, I got glasses. Like, oh, it's great. Well, then I kind of got astigmatism in my left eye. And that kind of changed, I think, last year. But my prescription goes up, you know, now it's at, like, point. I think it's 1.0 now. But one is negative and one is positive. Where. Yes. So that's where I've been having a few little issues too, at. At seeing, you know, correctly. So, like, the whole grand I shot with lenses that the script was a year and a half, two years old. So, yeah, so I can still see the target. I just don't see it as clear. But I've looked at, like, the Lasix or stuff, and my. A good friend of mine that is retired eye surgeon, he said there's way too many cons for you versus pros. He said, I wouldn't. I do not. He said, if you could give me a million dollars, I wouldn't take it. I was like, what? And he goes, goes. It just. You got so many things against you versus. Oh, you might see it a little clearer. He goes that, you know, so that's where I was going. It's kind of like, okay, I won't get Lasix. But you take someone like Ryan Glow, who is younger, he had Lasix, boom. He could see a lot better. Joey Jargo, he's had Lasix done. So, you know, they're. They're. Yeah.
- [65:38]
A
I mean, there's success stories, right? But with anything, there's. There's pro con, risk, reward, right? You have to kind of see what's right for you, obviously consult your physician or whoever you're working with and figure out what the right game plan is for you. But I think in those situations, like, if it's. It's causing you, you know, discomfort with your regular life or it's like, okay, I have a barrier that I can't get over. Well, then that's a different story than with Ricky. You know, he's just getting upset because he's getting a little older and he can't see as good. So, you know, that. That's a different thing completely than, you know, a real big problem that we have to, you know, fix.
- [66:13]
B
Like, absolutely.
- [66:14]
A
Coop actually has a. Cooper has a problem now that, yes, it's not common and it's. And it's going to cause some, you know, some fixes. So there is one question that I had that a listener wrote in and we talked about that, I didn't get a chance to ask yet. When it comes to focal vision, as far as where's your focusing? You know, me and Ricky talk a lot about when we call poll and when we're looking, we're focusing like right at the trap house. As far as the way eyes work ocularly is there. Do they work better to be more focused and looking far out when we're getting ready to call pull and then coming back to the bird, or do you kind of say, you know, like what me and Rick are custom doing, looking where the bird is and then following it out with our eyes? Is there any. You know, I know there's a lot of people that do different ways.
- [66:59]
B
Each is its own.
- [67:00]
A
Yeah. Is there a. Is there a medical. Like, this is how the eyes work?
- [67:04]
C
I do not have an answer for that. I think for me, the better answer is whatever. How a person's eyes work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [67:12]
B
That's what I figured. Because you always hear people talk about and it is true. You look out further and you come back, it's clear. But we're shooting a target that's moving away. So it's tough. You kind of get that and then you're going to look at the bead. And that's why I always try to tell my students, don't look too far out, you know, But I said everybody's different. So you want to try to find that comfort zone that, hey, I really see the target clear here and picking up faster. There you go.
- [67:40]
A
Yeah. And I think that that's, that's. I mean, like you said, there's no right answer to that because everybody's eyes work a little bit differently. I tend to agree with Ricky on like, where we put our eyes, and I feel like that's a better spot because I feel like if I get my eyes too far out, then I'm looking in such a narrow area that when that target goes out the side, it's like. It's like a blur. It's like a. It almost shocks me and scares me versus if I just widen that vision up.
- [68:04]
B
Up.
- [68:04]
A
I can see the vision and the pie of that bird the whole time. And then I'm just reaching out to it.
- [68:10]
C
I guess maybe if I was talking about earlier, I kind of said it wrong. I'm using. I have a soft focus where I am at.
- [68:17]
B
Yeah.
- [68:17]
C
So that I'm using my peripheral to see. Yeah, yeah.
- [68:20]
B
No, and that's fine. That's what most people do. But there is a lot of people that they it is crazy. And I don't know if there's. If there's some books out there, people reading or some videos they're watching about. Oh, yeah, because I get arguments. They're like, well, no, you need to look. And I'm like, no. Yes, interpretation.
- [68:39]
A
And then like, my thoughts are like, if you're talking about this game and this is just common sense, I'm, you know, just logic, right? Like, why wouldn't I want to look where it is versus looking where it's not? Like, if I'm going to look way where it's not, like, how much faster is it going to be for me to look where it's not and then come back to where it is versus just looking where it is? Because if I'm in that zone, looking in that little area, I'm going to catch it really quickly and then. Then I can go from there. But, you know, I'm looking over here and it's over here. I'm like, well, why waste the time? Why not just put your eyes, you know, where it is? So, I mean. But then again, we're not eye doctors. We don't know anything.
- [69:16]
B
So we're just. We're.
- [69:20]
A
That's why we got. We got experts here. So. So, I mean, it's been a pleasure having you on the show today. I mean, you're a wealth of knowledge and I'm sure we could have you on the show again and talk about this. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with any shooters regarding the eyes regarding shooting? Good advice, you know, parting words on your end.
- [69:39]
C
I feel like we covered it. You guys asked great questions and I always have an opinion.
- [69:45]
A
Well, we like that. We like that here at Trap Talk. And you answered the question. You answered the questions very, very well. Is there anyone that you'd like to thank or sponsors or things like that before we get out?
- [69:57]
C
I thank my parents for allowing me to get involved in shooting and allowing a young girl to do it in a time when that wasn't always considered acceptable. And then my husband for carrying on the torch and keeping me going and Phil Sims for giving me a great stock. I talked to Bob Palmer frequently about brain games and just all my friends and family and shooters are my family. So thanks to everybody.
- [70:27]
A
Well, that's a good one that we. We probably ought to have some time. Is Bob. I mean, you can connect us with him because, I mean, he wrote a book, did he not?
- [70:33]
C
Yes, he did. Yep. Teaching youth.
- [70:37]
A
Yeah. So he. I mean, hey, you get us connected Tell him. Tell him you were on. Now maybe he can be on. We'll see. We'll see if we can make some room.
- [70:44]
B
Yeah, absolutely. But.
- [70:46]
A
But, you know, we appreciate you very, very much and. And you've given us your time, your expertise, and your love of the game. Thank you to everyone who tuned in and listened today. Like, share, subscribe, don't be afraid to send in your questions. You know, episodes like today were possible because you guys said this is what we want and this is what we want to hear. So, you know, we're here to give the information that you guys are looking to learn, and we, you know, we'll get the experts on, interview them, ask them the questions, and go from there. So we really, really appreciate it. And thanks for wearing your trap. Talk merch Proud all across the country. Ricky still got his hat on. He's looking good. We got some stuff ordered coming in soon, so some new colors, new skus that John's gonna have on the store, things happening. It's gonna be a really good season that we're going into this year, and we look forward to seeing everyone at a range soon.
- [71:35]
B
That's right. Good luck, Everybody.
- [71:36]
A
Thank you, Dr. Laura.
- [71:38]
B
You're.
- [71:38]
A
You're awesome.
- [71:47]
B
Sam.