Spring Grand 2025 Recap | Highlights, Champions & Hot Takes from Tucson! | Trap Talk Ep. 119

Summary

Trap Talk From The Back Fence — Ep. 119

Spring Grand 2025 Recap: Highlights, Champions & Hot Takes from Tucson!

Hosts: Zach Nannini & Richard Marshall Jr.
Date: April 11, 2025

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Overview

Trap Talk returns for its third season, with hosts Zach and Ricky delivering a comprehensive recap of the 2025 Spring Grand in Tucson. Although Zach wasn’t able to attend in person, he follows the action and dives deep with Ricky, who was on-site and competing. The episode covers standout performances, tough weather conditions, equipment hot takes, and the ongoing debate around target settings and trap equipment. Layered with the hosts' characteristic banter and expertise, the episode provides both an in-depth event rundown and valuable insights for trap shooting enthusiasts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ricky's Recent Travels and Spring Grand Arrival

• Ricky recounts his teaching stints in Florida and Alabama before heading to the Spring Grand.
• Road trip challenges: “Drove home on Monday…into a lovely 60, 70 mile an hour gusting winds and dust storm and it took me 30 hours to get home. That would have taken me about 18.” (01:09)
• Teaser for the next episode’s ‘Southern Grand’ recap.

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2. The Weather & Its Impact on Scores

• Despite beautiful temperatures, conditions were challenging due to “sporty” targets and wind making for lower-than-usual scores.
• Notably low scores in championship events:
  • Only a couple of perfect scores (100s) were shot in doubles.
  • Scores in singles and handicap were lower across top competitors.

Ricky: “Targets were a little sporty…myself and John Kelly from Minnesota, I think were the only two that run the first couple hundred in singles.” (03:13)

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3. Championship Doubles & Pat Lamont’s Dominance

• Only two scores of 100 in championship doubles: Pat Lamont and Jake Ham.

• Pat Lamont wins the shoot-off:
  Ricky: “Pat won that shoot off. You know, Pat's pretty tough in the shoot off.” (04:54)

  Zach: “Mr. I think, what, 11 rings or 12 rings right now?”
  Ricky: “Twelve.” (05:02)

• Discussion of Pat’s recent move to Team Remington and his early struggles with new shells but a remarkable 99 in handicap. (05:33)

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4. Singles Championship: Windy, Tough Conditions

Score Breakdown:

• Tied high scores: Jonathan Weber & Jason Fullbag, both with 198/200
• Only a few shooters in the 197s; an unusually challenging year.

Memorable Moment:
Zach: “How many times do you really have a shoot where 198 is high in the championship singles?” (07:43)

• Discussion on how the wind picked up, making scores drop significantly, especially in the back 100 of singles.

Ricky: “I broke 99 the first 100, and I think there was only four hundreds or five hundreds the first hundred…We shot and…as soon as I pulled the trigger, the target was hitting the ground…” (08:51, 09:12)

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5. The Role of Target Setup & Gun Setup

Key insight:

• Importance of target height and presentation; wind can create “razor blade” (edge-on) targets, much harder to hit.

Ricky: “Don’t shoot a very high shooting gun if you’re going to shoot all over the country. That’s just me.” (12:05)

Zach adds: Most shooters are better served with a 60/40, 70/30, 80/20 point of impact gun because flatter targets require more precise pellet placement.

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6. Fluctuating Scores in Later Events

• Sunday’s handicap event saw even lower scores, with high of 97 and many top shooters struggling.

Notable Names:

• Mackenzie Ludlow wins champion with a 97 in the handicap, a standout performance. (18:00–18:21)
• Philip Schumach takes runner-up in a shoot-off.

Ricky: “If I’d have broken 93, none of the threes played much money. It would have paid another thousand dollars.” (18:38)

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7. Equipment Hot Takes & The “Bands vs Steel Springs” Debate

• Tucson switched back to throwing targets with rubber bands (vs. steel springs) due to shooter demand.
• Debate over which system provides more consistent and “smoke-able” targets.

Zach: “With bands… you might have one at 42, one at 42.5, one at 41.5… With steel springs, that speed was very, very consistent.” (20:31–21:11)

• Consensus: shooter preference and club conditions matter greatly; there’s no one-size-fits-all.

Memorable Quote:
Ricky: “Once a trap shooter’s got it in his mind that this is what it needs to be, I think that’s what it needs to be.” (24:37)

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8. The Human Side of Trapshooting

• Importance of listening to shooters and customer service at clubs.
• The impact of club decisions on attendance (“…there’s a lot of people that were not happy with the way the targets were, so they chose not to come.” (19:52)).

Zach: “There’s a small amount of people doing this professionally...everyone else is just a consumer. At the end of the day, they’re coming to enjoy, and they’re basically making a decision where am I going to take my family?” (32:51)

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9. Final Results, Honors, and Shout-Outs

• All-Around Champion: Jason Fag, who finished three birds over the next competitors (Ricky, Pat Lamont, Canyon Ferris).
• Notable performance from Jason Fullbag—a top wind shooter, according to both hosts.
• Ricky celebrates winning three of four “Martin Lewis” options, courtesy of the Martins. (37:33)

Ricky: “You know, my kids could eat, you know, for a couple weeks off that. I appreciate that from them.” (38:07)

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10. Memorable Travel Stories & Closing Thoughts

• Ricky’s 30-hour windswept return trip home, followed by a blizzard (“…if I would have stopped and stayed and slept for like four or five hours, I’d have been stuck…” (39:53)).
• Praise for Tucson Trap & Skeet for listening to shooters and making changes.
• Anticipation for the upcoming Arizona State Shoot (now using bands again).

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Notable Quotes

• Zach: “How many times do you really have a shoot where 198 is high in the championship singles?” (07:43)
• Ricky: “Pat won that shoot off. You know, Pat’s pretty tough in the shoot off.” (04:54)
• Ricky: “Don’t shoot a very high shooting gun if you’re going to shoot all over the country. That’s just me.” (12:05)
• Zach: “Once a trap shooter’s got it in his mind that this is what it needs to be, I think that’s what it needs to be.” (24:37)
• Ricky: “Pound for pound, size for size, [Fullbag]'s the toughest guy in trap shooting, you know.” (37:07)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:09 – Ricky’s travel recap and Spring Grand arrival
• 02:46 – Spring Grand weather, targets, and initial shooting impressions
• 05:28 – Pat Lamont’s performance and switch to Team Remington
• 07:43 – Unusually low singles championship scores; score breakdown
• 11:59–13:30 – Gun setup & flatter target shooting strategies
• 18:00–18:21 – Handicap final scores and recognition of Mackenzie Ludlow & Philip Schumach
• 19:52–26:29 – Equipment debate: bands vs steel springs; club approaches
• 32:51–34:23 – Serving the shooting community: shooter satisfaction & club responsibility
• 36:23 – All-around champion and shout-outs to notable competitors
• 37:33–39:53 – Ricky’s Martin Lewis victories & travel adventures
• 41:38–42:00 – Facilities and Tucson’s atmosphere

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode is rich in insider knowledge, competitive anecdotes, and playful friendship. Banter between Zach and Ricky balances technical drilling with camaraderie, while both offer practical advice for shooters and club managers alike. The focus is always on the love for the sport, the value of the shooting community, and the pursuit for improvement—whether in equipment, club management, or personal skill.

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This recap captures the ups, downs, and technical intricacies of the 2025 Spring Grand, spotlighting its champions, the effect of tough conditions, and the ongoing debates that shape competitive trapshooting. With tips for both shooters and clubs, the episode is an ideal debrief for those wanting to learn what really went down in Tucson this year.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to season three of Trap Talk.

[B]

Brought to you by Craig off the Choice of Champions.

[A]

Hello Trap Talk listeners. I'm your host, Zach Denini. I'm here with my co Host, Richard Marshall Jr. We are enjoying another wonderful day and we are wanting to talk a little bit more about the Spring Grand. Give you a little bit of Spring grand recap episode. How's it going, Ricky?

[B]

Oh, you know, another Tuesday, Another Tuesday.

[A]

In the world it's, it's Friday as you're listening to it, but in Ricky and Zach world, it's Tuesday right now. So we're, we're doing the best we can. That's the magical power of podcasting.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

So, so where you been, Rick? I mean, I know we're talking about the Spring grand now, but you've been traveling around a little bit, teaching, doing stuff. What's the, what's the story in your life?

[B]

Well, jeez. Went to a couple private shoots, lessons, was down in Florida, did some private lessons, came, came back to the Spring grand and then drove home on Monday after the Spring grand into a lovely 60, 70 mile an hour gusting winds and dust storm and it took me 30 hours to get home. That would have taken me about 18.

[A]

So that's a long time.

[B]

Yeah. And then I was home what, I guess three days, four days, and then flew to Atlanta, drove to Alabama to Bill Parsons Gun Club, Dixie Trap and Gun Club, did a nice two day lesson there, had a great time, you know, great hospitality down there and then flew down to the Southern Grand. So it was, you know, we had, we had a good time down there. That's, that's for the next episode.

[A]

Now, next episode we'll talk about the Southern Grand. But, but today we're locked in on the Spring grand. So, so for the Spring grand, you know, I wasn't able to come this year, but you know, I was watching the scores every day I seen, you know, they didn't seem to be as high as normal. You know, the Spring grand is usually one of those shoots where you have, you know, huge scores all the time. You know, we talked a little bit about, you know, only a couple hundreds were broken in doubles. I mean, give me the lay of the land. Was it really windy this week? Was, was, you know, the conditions up and down. I mean, what are you, what do you think personally attributed to, to the week?

[B]

I will say that, yeah, the weather was, I mean, the weather was beautiful though, temperature wise, it was probably one of the nicest spring grands I've been to in a Long time. But it was, you know, the targets were a little sporty. So, you know, I know I just shot the, you know, the main week. I shot the prelim day on Monday because I flew back in from Florida from teaching down there and Sunday night, late as usual, and then started shooting Monday. And I hadn't shot since the autumn Grant any trap, so went out and shot a couple practice rounds and we shot the events there on Monday and, you know, started blazing away for the overall Tuesday. And, you know, I know thinking back, myself and John Kelly from Minnesota, I think were the only two that run the first couple hundred in singles. And then, you know, I broke a lone hundred on Wednesday's doubles, which I was kind of surprised because I thought the targets were really good. And then the championship doubles, you know, Pat Lamont and Jake Ham had the only hundreds in the championship.

[A]

All right, folks, we got to take a quick second and give a huge shout out to our title sponsor, Craig Off. Me and Ricky both shoot them. We both love them.

[B]

Yeah, best gun in the industry. I shoot them, I sell them. Nothing better, folks. Get yourself a Craig up, your scores will increase.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, Ricky's got hundreds and hundreds of hundreds with his. I mean, I've got a few hundreds, but. But I'm always working to get a little bit better and they definitely help me, that's for sure. So on top of that, we also got to thank winning. I'm wearing the shirt today. Love this shirt. If you're down at the grand, pick one up.

[B]

Yeah, winning. Like I said, Zach, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds with my winning stock. You know, get a hold of Bobby, Luke, Bill, get an appointment set up. They will make you a better shooter with that winning stock.

[A]

Of course. Yeah, the Grand's the great place to do it. Give them a call, get on their book. It's worth your time.

[B]

Just remember, winners shoot winnings.

[A]

With that being said, let's get back to the show.

[B]

And Pat won that shoot off. You know, Pat's pretty tough in the shoot off.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I'd say so. Mr. I think, what, 11 rings or 12 rings right now?

[B]

Twelve.

[A]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a tough time going against Pat, obviously. I mean, the guy just don't miss. And, and the other thing I think you have to think about when you're going in a shoot off with him is it's Pat Lamont. So that's got to mess with your head a little bit at some point because he's been in so many big, long shoot Offs. And most of the time, the guy just don't miss, especially up close, you know, the putting green, sixteens and doubles. I mean, he's going to go a long time.

[B]

Yeah, well. And Pat, just switch. As you know, he's on Team Remington now.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So he had a few little struggles in. In handicap, I think, starting off early, shooting, you know, trying different shells and stuff. But he did, if I remember right, Tuesday's handicap, he broke a 99, which was a stellar 99. Yeah. In the handicap. But, you know, going into the. The weekend, Saturday, she was blowing.

[A]

Yeah, I heard. I heard the singles were probably the. The hardest and. Or, you know, worse singles in a long time. Now, was that high score there?

[B]

What.

[A]

What was it that was. Broke that one? 98. 198 made it to the show.

[B]

There was. And then. And I was trying to. I thought I had it pulled up here. Jason Fullbag and I don't know the second one, but I'm gonna find out real quick, because if we're gonna talk about it, we gotta know who. I have it. Who was it?

[A]

The singles was Jonathan Weber.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. Right.

[A]

So Jonathan Weber and Full vag had the 198s, and then the 197s were. There was a bunch of. Bunch of them, but. But in different categories.

[B]

There's only two 197s in the whole day.

[A]

Yeah, even in all the categories.

[B]

I'm pretty sure.

[A]

No, there was an a class 197. There was some more 197s, but there's only been three.

[B]

Look at it. Look.

[A]

Three.

[B]

See, you got it up and you won't even look.

[A]

I'm just telling you, he's trying. He's trying to be right again. He said it was two. It's definitely three, which means he was wrong. Moving on. All right, folks, we got to take a real quick break and acknowledge the official target of the ata, White Flyer. They've been sponsoring us since the beginning, and they make a great target. What do you think, Rick?

[B]

It's the best target in the ata. Shout out to everybody there, all the reps. You know, Bill Daniels, Josh Taylor, Nick Arnold, Robert Crow, everything they do for the sport and all the shoots. Really appreciate it.

[A]

They're always there. They're always trying to make a better target, and they're always supporting the game that we love so much. With that being said, let's get back to the show. How many times do you really have a shoot where 198 is high in the championship singles? I mean, I. I can't remember very many times where that's happening with the caliber of shooters that were there. I mean, you were there. Lamont was there. Full vag. I mean, there was a ton. I mean, Sean. Was Sean there, or did Sean not make it this year?

[B]

No, Sean wasn't there.

[A]

Munson was there.

[B]

Correct? Yeah, Munson's were there. Yeah. Jason, fullback, Jonathan Weber. And folks, I was right. Jack wang and myself with 197s. And then there was quite a few 196s. But it was very, you know, Nagles, Peter Walker, you know, Mike Blaisdell was there. You know, Sherrod Oaks, Tim Rob, Art Bate. I mean. But I want to tell you, I. I broke 99 the first 100, and I think there was only four hundreds or five hundreds, the first hundred.

[A]

So it started blowing harder.

[B]

Oh, yeah, it was. Well, we shot and, you know, our. My squad mate, you know, George lee, he had 98, the first hundred, and I had 99. Missing number 100.

[A]

Last bird out.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yep.

[A]

Oh, come on, Ricky, would you. You don't do that often.

[B]

No, I. I don't. I mean, I have done it probably more than most people, but I just. I got blown over. And literally, they said when I called and as soon as I pulled the trigger, the target was hitting the ground, you know, whatever. I made a bad move, actually, is what I called it. I called it the wrong time. Yeah, it was my fault. I missed, and I was like, you know what? Hey, 99 still better than 98, you know, and. And not to pour, you know, fuel on the fire, but, you know, my squad mate, Ryan glow, he broke 91, I think, the first hundred, and then broke 90 the second hundred. They were very.

[A]

And. And, you know, he's as good as anybody in the country. So, you know. Yeah. So, you know, that just shows me that, you know, you had some varying conditions that you're not used to.

[B]

Guinea pig. Of the bad targets that day, folks, I've been there where you're just. You. You're on a squad, and you're like, why somebody else get good targets? And I'm getting.

[A]

And then I get the bad ones.

[B]

Well, and Ryan shoots a pretty high point of impact, and these targets were flat and dropping, and, you know, I mean, it was just very, very, very sporty.

[A]

All right, Trap Talk listeners, let's take a couple seconds and thank a couple more sponsors. First of all, Remington's been with us since day one. I've been shooting these shells since 2007. I shoot the Nitro 27 from the 27 yard line. Ounce and eight, seven and a half and STS, ounce and eighth eights for singles and doubles. They've worked great for me as they do a lot of top shooters all around the country. Give them a try. Don't forget the guys gun club line. When you're practicing and you're wanting to save a little bit of money.

[B]

We'd also like to thank another sponsor, Outlaw engineering. Randy Freston, R2. I've known Randy since 1988. They do engineering, survey and drafting, GIS, civil structural land development, wetland permitting. They do.

[A]

And they're friends of trap shooters. I mean they're trap shooting family. They've been in the ATA forever. His dad's been involved. They're involved. They're beautiful family. They're great people. And we just love that they listen to the show and we love that they support trap talk.

[B]

Yeah, his dad was past president 1989. So I really want to thank those guys for the support. It really appreciate it here at trap.

[A]

With that being said, let's get back to the show, take a second. And to kind of get into that. If a person is trying to prepare themselves for being able to shoot all different types of targets. Ricky, I mean, what is your opinion on that? I mean, is there a type of training that you can do or is there a type of setup that you would recommend with the gun? I mean, and this is your opinion, Obviously there's no right or wrong answer, but.

[B]

But you know what it is, is don't shoot a high, a very high shooting gun if you're going to shoot.

[A]

All over the country.

[B]

In my opinion, that's just me.

[A]

Yeah, and that's the same thing Koe said. He said, you know, just shoot coast to coast. A guy's doing himself more of a service to shoot more of a, you know, direct point of impact, a 60, 40, 70, 30, 80, 20 zone. Then you know, you're getting up in that 100, 120, 130, 140%. Now if you're shooting in Colorado or you're shooting in, you know, Utah, or you're shooting somewhere where targets are, you know, set with a lot of face. I mean, Kansas, you go to Rob Taylor's, you got a lot of face and targets going up, up, up and up. I, I don't know if that point of impact is going to hurt you, but I mean in this situation, in this situation specifically, I mean, you're really at a disservice to yourself when the targets get, you know, flat, I mean, and. And you. You really don't have much to shoot at because when they're flat, you also have to think of. You're shooting everything on edge. So, you know, and I don't know how much we've talked about this on the show, but generally, the higher the target, the more belly and the more face we're showing just the angle of the arm, and then the flatter the target, the more edge. And you're just shooting at razor blades. Right. And. And that razor blade just. I mean, it takes a lot more pellets to break it on its side than it does on it on its face just because of. Just because of the angle of the clay. I mean, the same reason why a lot of those sporting clay shooters are shooting a lot more open chokes on those belly targets than we're shooting on stuff that. That has an edge.

[B]

Yeah. And it's one of those that, you know, it was very sporty that day. Like I said, Ryan kept getting targets that were coming out and just dropping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you're shooting that higher gun, it's. It's so hard to get down. And. And I was literally, you know, just trying to have trigger control and. And just see it and make the move. And then the. The second hundred, I broke 98. And I was happy with the 98 by far. I had one target, I remember, specifically come out, and it did the wave move. I pulled the trigger. Nothing you can do.

[A]

Yeah, sometimes there's.

[B]

There's.

[A]

I mean, I don't want to say targets unbreakable, but sometimes there's a position where it's almost unbreakable if you don't have a little bit of luck involved. I mean, if you're pulling the trigger right when it zips up or it zips down. I mean, not to get into it, but in Florida, we had a few of those and a couple of the double events where they just get sucked out of the, you know, the air with that heavy air, and they're moving around and, you know, when you're in that position, all you can really do, I think, is just kind of, you know, shake your head and say, oh, well, and move forward and hit as many as you can, because, I mean, you're at the. You're at the luck of the draw. You don't have anything that you can control in a day like that other than just doing the best you can and putting shots on the bird. I mean, that's all you can Do.

[B]

Yeah. And it was one of those, you know, and I know Fullbag. I think he missed his last target for the 198.

[A]

Geez.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was just a tough deal. Now then, Sunday morning, it wasn't bad. A little chilly in the morning. You know, we went out, I shot a practice, felt really good. Went out to, to shoot the event and I was down 5 or so. I think right off the bat, I mean, just like I was like, okay, we're gonna end up giving this overall way because I think I had a 10 target lead.

[A]

It was like a 10 bird lead almost to Pat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I remember Pat was the closest to you. Hey, Trop Talk listeners, let's take a quick second to thank a couple more amazing sponsors. Sos, Clay Shoot Management, they're doing a fantastic job. I love the app. I love being able to see everything on my phone instantaneously. It's freaking awesome. Rick, what do you think?

[B]

Yeah, Greg Pink and his group over there, I mean they've got majority of the satellite grants, majority of the state shoots. I think it's 40 plus state shoots they're doing. But the app, honestly, we were doing a little beta testing with that at the spring grand. It's awesome. You can see your squad if they paid, you know, you can see your options, your payouts, the whole works that you're for fingertips. Great deal. They're just.

[A]

Ricky, how much money he made before he even got off the line, he was like, hey, I'm buying lunch. I'm like, yeah, good job. We're good to go. We also got gun and trophy insurance. I mean, they're the best in the business. I, I know they're, they're great price. Ricky, you're familiar with them, right?

[B]

Yeah. Cole and Larry Cushman, been long time supporters of myself and, and I've been a supporter of them and you know, especially with my college team, you know, we require insurance. It's so fast and easy to sign up and get your insurance. In literally 10 minutes you can have your guns insured. And they're just great. They're great to deal with. Like I said, you can do your trophies also, you know, your, your wildlife, animals and that such and your guns.

[A]

It's just a great, it's always good when you're traveling around to have that peace of mind and know that you don't have to worry about losing your stuff forever. And these are expensive things, especially when you got those Craig offs, you got to keep them insured, so. Oh, with that being Said, let's get.

[B]

Back to the show. Yeah. And I missed. If I remember Right, it was four or five the first. Right. Right out of the first 50 or something. And it was just like, okay, you need to get your stuff together. And I broke the last trap for the 92. And you know, of course solidified winning the. The overall by 8. So I knew there wasn't.

[A]

Pat didn't shoot that well on Sunday either. Then 94.

[B]

Yeah. Which was still 97s were high. There was two sevens. Those were short.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Yeah. Mackenzie Ludlow, which. She's a student of mine. I've done some lessons with her down there. She shot very well. And then what was the. Schumach.

[A]

Yeah, let me look it up.

[B]

I think he ended up winning the shoot off.

[A]

Philip Schumach, he won. He won champ. Runner up. And Mackenzie Ludlow won champion.

[B]

Okay, well, she won champion.

[A]

Yeah, Champ.

[B]

Okay, that's right.

[A]

Yep. That's what it is. And. And just looking at these scores, I mean, like you said, you get in the long yardage stuff and you know, if you shot 93, 94, 95. I mean, 90 threes.

[B]

See, that was the thing.

[A]

They were in the seventh place.

[B]

Yeah. By the money. If I'd have broken 93, none of the threes played much money. It would have paid another thousand dollars.

[A]

What are you doing, Ricky?

[B]

And listen, I broke the last trap, I think, didn't I?

[A]

Yeah, you. You might have. I'm just saying you should. You should know better.

[B]

So. Yeah. Congratulations to McKenzie for winning. Yeah, I did. I broke the last trap in there and. But it was one of those deals. It was like the targets just, you know, here's the one thing. And Tucson shout out to them for just switching. Went back to the bands from the springs. And I. I think the bands throw a much better target, especially in doubles too, because everybody I know, Iowa has done some testing. According to Ryan Glow, the left birds four miles an hour faster than the right bird with the spring versus the band. So hopefully, you know, they'll get the attendance back up because I know there's a lot of people that were not happy with the way the targets were, so they chose not to come.

[A]

Hey, Trap Talk listeners, we got to take a real quick break and we got to thank Ron Prescott from Mid State Precious Metals for everything they do for the trap shooting community coast to coast for all your gold and silver buying needs. And on top of that new announcement, they're a sponsor of the 126 grand American.

[B]

Finally he said it right, folks. Grand American. Yeah. Ron is a great guy. He. He's a sponsor of the back fence shootout at Nevada state shoot and Ohio state shoot. And also we got our gold for our trap talk event at Nevada State shoot and the 77th annual Nevada State shoot. They bought all theirs from it. 680 ounces of silver to be exact. Folks, you're missing out if you're not there.

[A]

That's a lot of silver. And honestly, if you're not buying from Ron, you're probably overpaying. So whether you're buying it for your gun clubs or your shoots or for your personal use, you got to give them a try because they're big supporters of the trap shooting nation. So it's awesome. With that being said, let's get back to the show. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think we probably, to do justice to this topic, we could probably have a. A whole other show on that topic alone and just get some subject matter experts. The things that, that I've heard about it a lot of ways is first of all, if you're dealing with the steel springs, they're is of difference in steel springs. So there's a lot of different manufacturers of these steel springs. And I think depending on different manufacturers, there could be, you know, difference in variance on what's going on there. But if you go to Italy or you talk to people you know, that shoot like International trap or all these other machines, you know, in most scenarios, the steel springs are considered a premium product. And the main reason is because you don't have the variation of the warmup. So you know the downside. So I'm on the board of directors at the mta and we actually just voted to go back to the bands from the steel springs. But we never really noticed as many issues as Tucson. I mean, and, and honestly, on the target setting community in the morning when we, when we went out to set targets, everything was so easy to set because those springs would hold. So if you put them at whatever, there was a lot tighter rang on. When you set that steel spring. If you said, hey, it's 42 and a half, you might have it go 42 and a half, 42.4, 42.6. But that speed was very, very consistent as what as I noticed on, on the steel with the bands. Unfortunately, because you're dealing with rubber, there's going to be some variance in between speeds. So, you know, you throw it and you might have one at 42, one at 42 and a half, one at 41 and a half. And you've got, I think more of a range of speed when you're dealing with bands that are rubber. But then you also have the kinetic energy of steel which changes the way that that target is thrown off the arm at some level. And. And I would tend to agree based on who I've talked to and who I've seen. You know, they said that that left target potentially could be a little bit wider on. On the. On the left hand side. All right, Trap talk listeners, we got to take a quick break and we got to welcome a new sponsor to the show. RGS bore. It's a great product, Ricky. Tell them how they can find it.

[B]

Go to their website, rgsguncleaner.com you can get the 18 ounce bottle, free shipping. 28 ounce bottle and you get the 2 ounce travel bottle and it's free shipping also. Or just get the little two ounce bottle for travel.

[A]

Yeah, they sent me some of this product and I used it on my kragoff choke tubes the other day and it got the plastic out like in a minute and it was super cool and super good. So if you like cleaning your gun, you like eliminating plastic and you like shiny bores, give them a try for sure. Thank you so much for supporting the show.

[B]

Yeah, we'd really like to thank John Weber, the owner for the support. He's doing an awesome job.

[A]

Yeah, we really want to thank John. We appreciate the support of the show. Anybody that supports trap talk, you guys need to support them and get this stuff because it's awesome.

[B]

And with that, let's get back to the show.

[A]

But another comment that was made or another I guess topic to get into would be potentially, and this is a thought, it, it could have to do with, you know, the field setting in general, the whole thing. Because when you're switching, you're making a major switch between rubber bands and steel. Like if you're not lining up the fields and readjusting the fields for that adjustment, that could be a nightmare in itself. Right. Because you just. If you just throw them on and say, oh, we're good now. Well, now everything's different. You have to almost go back and re laser everything and make sure it's perfect. And if you're not doing that, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

[B]

Yeah. And. And I think there's I think four or five different manufacturers of the springs for the pat traps. Correct. So. And I know your guys and I think I was. Are different than what Tucson has a hundred percent.

[A]

So you know, our thing was. Our thing was just doing the right thing for shooters. Because if, you know, this is how a trap shooter works. In my mind, once a trap shooter's got it in his mind that this is what it needs to be, I think that's what it needs to be. So, like, if everybody. If everybody says, hey, we want rubber bands, you'd be foolish as a gun club in my mind, to not appease the shooter and give them what they want to. To receive. But I think that there's. There's a lot more variables because this is a, you know, a tiny little, you know, sample size of just Tucson trap and skeet and just those springs. I think there's a lot more variables that are coast to coast in different areas. And I. I mean, you got the.

[B]

Air, the density there. You. I mean, just the condition.

[A]

You've got different targets. You've got different. You've got different setters, right? Like, you know, imagine. I mean, I know at Stockdale's gun club, you know, they're shooting a lot of those old. What are those Laportes or what is a stock deal? They're the.

[B]

Oh, God, I can't remember the name of the machines.

[A]

Something star.

[B]

Superstars.

[A]

Superstars. But those are all steel springs.

[B]

So the different machine, we used correct springs off of Winchester handsets, but they're different. It's a different correct.

[A]

It's all different. So. So I think, you know, if you look at it and you say, okay, sample size, Tucson trap and skeet, Whatever they were doing there, whatever it was, I would say at that specific gun club, they had better time shooting rubber bands than whatever they put on those machines. But just to look at it and in general, to say steel springs are bad or they're good, it has to do with the machines. It has to do with the setters. It has to do with. I mean, because. Because I've never heard anybody ever say anything about Stockdale's gun club target setting. I mean, that's throw one of the prettiest targets in the country. And, you know, they're. They're in a rubber band in sight.

[B]

And here's a different machine, too, so that makes a difference. But.

[A]

All right, trap dock listeners, we got to take a real quick break, and I've got something that I'm so excited to announce. Trap shooting USA has now become the official mag of the trap talk podcast.

[B]

No, it's not only Traption usa. Now it's Wing and clay Life lady outdoor lifestyles and clay Shooting usa.

[A]

I'm just really excited because they make Such a high quality magazine. I mean, if you guys haven't had these magazines and you actually get to touch them in your hands, they've got really thick paper, they're really glossy and they keep it really cool. I mean, I just love it.

[B]

The traveling Gunsmith. And then in this newest episode, we have.

[A]

Oh, man, look at those, look at those handsome guys. I love this. I love it, I love it. So also on top of that, Outdoor Pursuits Media, Matt, he's decided that he's going to give away a shotgun at the Grand American this year at our live podcast studio. If you weren't there last year, you missed out. You need to be there this year. It's going to be great. The only thing you have to do is either renew or subscribe to any one of these magazines and you're going to be in for the drawing for the gun and we're going to have all that information in the future. Just look out for it and we'll keep you updated for sure.

[B]

With that. Let's get back to the show. I didn't mind the springs. I mean, I, I, you know, I won not this year's spring grand, but you go back with the autumn grands and the, and the spring grand the year before. I'd won, I think four out of the five in each one of them championships, so eight championships. So I wasn't, you know, displeased with them. I just know the, the average shooter was with the, with the targets out there with stuff going on and, and, and I felt honestly, you know, and we'll, we'll talk about more of it when we do the, the Southern grand episode. But going from the spring grand to the Southern grand, the targets were speedier on the springs. I thought a little more whip versus on the steel.

[A]

On the steel, Yep. Yeah. And I mean, that, that, that, that would make some common sense.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean one has more give than the other. I mean, steel is more rigid than, than rubber. Right. So, you know, one's kind of a, a whipping and a rubber band effect. The other's a snapping.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just pop. It's going.

[B]

The spring is the snap. And that's where I, I felt, this is just my personal opinion, that the targets weren't smoking like they were off of a band pat trap because of the spin.

[A]

Yep. And, but, but that could have to do with are the arms sanded? Are the arms not sanded? I mean, there could be, there could.

[B]

Be with that as far as like the, the smoke. Because literally you go to A club with the bands and they, they sand the arms or whatnot. And they're smoke. The targets are smoking black and out there just. We didn't seem to get the, the.

[A]

Weren'T getting clouds, you know, I mean, and, and they're.

[B]

Now they're, they're shooting the, the dipple targets out there where before they were shooting the eclipse style targets. But White Flyer went away from the eclipse in the pitch targets. You know, they still make them in the blackouts. I wish they would change their minds and go back to that eclipse target because I feel that target flies better in the air than the dimple target.

[A]

Yeah, I mean there's a lot of, there's a lot of discussion that we can get into. You know, we could, we can go into like all the different things. And you know, I, I think the problem is, and we just talked about at the beginning, the problem is, is there's a lot of opinion, right? Opinions. Everyone's got an opinion on everything and everybody's a subject matter expert. But it's not like we have, you know, people that are actually professionals at going out and figuring out, well, what is this doing and what is this not doing? I mean, most gun clubs are run by a bunch of people that volunteer and say, hey, we're going to do this, we're going to throw a shoot. We've got these target setting committees and these people that generally are trying to do the best they can. But it's not like, it's not like the Olympics where there's a, you know, there's a guidebook or there's a, there's, you know, there's a tight line of exactly how you need to do it. You know, there's some, some idea, right? There's some regulation, the ATA book. But, but, but who's, who's actually checking it against that, right? Who's, who's going there and really saying, hey, this is how it needs to be laid out perfectly and it's actually in the specs.

[B]

Well, they do that when they're, when the machines are put in. Okay, as far as specs on how the machine supposed to be laid out in the house, because I've done consulting work on, on several private clubs around the country that no one's ever shot at. Guys just want to build their backyard deal and, or little clubs and such, you know, and they get approved to throw ATA targets.

[A]

All right, folks, we got to take a quick second and give a shout out to the Cardinal center in Morango, Ohio. They hold the Cardinal Classic. And they also hold the Ohio State shoot, which is home of the first back fence shootout. Ricky, what do you think about Ohio?

[B]

Listen, I, I love the Cardinals Center. I, I actually broke the first hunter from the 27 there at their very first shoot ever. Great play place. Jake Spangler and their whole clan there. They do an awesome job at running the shoots. The Ohio State shoots ran by the Ohio State association. The Cardinal classics right after the grand. So if you're looking for some, some more points right after the grand, hit that up so you can get a little more points than old Zach here. But listen, it's a great shoot, great facility.

[A]

It really is. I, I personally love the RVs. They've got great camping there. They've got a great, great time. Good shoot, good target presentation. Go check it out. It's worth putting on your list. With that being said, let's get back to the show.

[B]

The, the biggest thing is, is the, the clubs. It is, it's all volunteer people normally, you know, and shout out, you know, to the Tucson Travis Keith club, especially Alan Helfer. I know Allen got on the board and he's the one kind of in charge of putting these, you know, bands back on and, and you know, getting that better and. Because that's what the shooters wanted, you know, and you try to do what a shooter wants if you want to keep the business, you know. So I just feel that, you know, you've got to listen to shooters a little more sometimes and, and take in account what your customer base wants. 100 and do that.

[A]

You have to listen to the customers. You have to listen to the shooters. I mean, at the end of the day there's a, there's a small amount of people that are doing this professionally, if you would call it even that. And so everyone else is just a consumer. At the end of the day, they're coming to enjoy and they're basically making a decision, hey, I have X amount of dollars, I have X amount of vacation time, I have X amount of trips in a year. Do I want to go to Disneyland Disney World? Do I want to go to Tucson Trap and Skeet? Like, where am I going to take my family? What am I going to spend my dollars on? And at the end of the day, there's a lot of places that you could take your dollars. You know, you can go do a lot of things to be entertained nowadays.

[B]

And there's a lot of shoots, a lot of clubs, a lot of places. I mean, look at.

[A]

But I'm not even talking about shoots. I'm talking about people that just say, you know what, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go shoot trap anymore. I'm gonna go to Bahamas, right, or, or whatever, whatever type of fun leisure that they're gonna do. And the more people, you know, we lose to the sport, you know, it's hard to get them to come back. And I think that the, the, the greatest part of the game is the community and the scene people and you know, your squads and you know, if, if you're like me, you know, I love checking out new places and you know, checking all the food that everywhere has to offer, you know, and things like that. I think, you know, that that's kind of fun. But, but you can, you know, if the goal is just a vacation or just to travel, I mean there, there other than, you know, trap shooting, people might say yeah, I'd rather do this or I'd rather do that. So you know, you have to have a little bit everything. Good target presentation, good service, know, trophies, all of it.

[B]

Smart stuff. But you also, if people are just going to shoot and look at shoots to go to, they're going to pick the shoots where they're treated the best. They get the best bang for their buck and possibly they can bring their family along and stuff. Correct? All right folks, we need to take a quick second and get to a new show sponsor, Big Red Motorsports. Big Red, their personal friend, friends of mine, Jason and George Lee and they're also a personal sponsor of mine.

[A]

Now I'll say this, Ricky looked great driving around in that side by side. I got some free rides down at Tucson, the autumn Grand. I think it's awesome that they deliver all across the country and obviously they love trap shooters, they love trap shooting and they're doing a great job.

[B]

Listen, they got Can Am, Kawasaki CF Moto, Triton trailers. Hit them up. We'll take care of you guys. With that being said, let's get to the show. You know, getting back to, to the spring. You know, we finished up Sunday's handicap and I know Jason Fag won the allaround. He did three over myself, Pat Lamont and Canyon Ferris. Canyon lives in Fremont, Nebraska. Except for Canyon is from Tucson. His parents owned the. The Farm and Fleet store right down the. That was it like 2 miles I think from the gun club or 3 miles down from the Gun Club. But Canyon and myself and, and Pat were tied. Pat left and, and I was like, I didn't really want to shoot off so I forfeited also. And, and to Canyon, we could have flipped. And I just told him, hey, you know, you, you can have it. You know, he shot good. You know, like I said, fullback broke a 95. I did hear that Jason missed a couple on the last post or three out of the last 10 for the 95. So he really could have stomped us in the, in the all around.

[A]

Well, and, and the handicap if 97 was high, I mean, if that was the case, he could have won the whole thing. But, you know, he won, he won the all around and he won the singles and to, to circle back on full vag. You know, we had him on the show and you know, I will got to tell you, I think he's one of the most underrated shooters in the country as far as, as far as his ability, you know, to win. I mean, he, he always presents and is in the winner's circle whenever he does finally show up. But you know, as a farming, working guy, you know, he's, he's not, he's not always there. But, but I really don't think that there's much people tougher than him when it comes to a windy bird. I mean, if you got a bird that's bouncing around and doing all kinds of crap, he knows how to get to that bird where the wind flies over him.

[B]

I mean, you know, pound for pound, size for size, he's the toughest guy in trap shooting, you know. You know, listen, I've known Jason for 37 years and he has been a competitor and one hell of a shot for that that whole time. You know, he just, he can't get away to every shoot, you know, that's possible.

[A]

When he does, he's a shooter.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, he's in the, in the hunt all the time. So, you know, it was, it was a great shoot. You know, like I said, the weather was probably the best. We'd had five or six years or more. For consistency, you know, you know, shout out to the Martins to Bill Liam Martin. You know, they do the Martin Lewis and, and I was fortunate enough to, to win three of the four Martin Lewis's and I was second in the handicap one. So, you know, my kids could eat, you know, for a couple weeks off that. I appreciate that from them.

[A]

Get some biscuit money. That's good.

[B]

I told wd, I said, I appreciate getting some of your inheritance. It was a good time though, you know. You know, my wife came out, she had to do some work out there, so she surprised me. And, and then she had to stay for three or Four days in, in work. And then like I said, I got stuck in that, that dust storm coming home and you know, pulling a 45 foot fifth wheel with a 12 foot trailer on the back with my, my Can Am, you know, from Big Red Motorsports.

[A]

You were, you were a wind sale.

[B]

It. Well, actually it wasn't bad. It was funny having that trailer on the back. Really kept it in line and I just set the cruise most time on 60, 65. But it's kind of odd when you're driving and it tells you a time, can you drive a little further? And it says it's gonna be longer to get there than what it was. And I'm like this, I'm like this trip has taken forever.

[A]

We're losing time on this deal.

[B]

We got. I got home okay, Tyler. I literally drove. I slept two and a half hours in a little gas station makeshift truck stop in the middle of Kansas because it kept saying sustained winds at this time, at this time. And I'm like, I'm staying ahead of it. I whipped into the old blue beacon truck wash in York, Nebraska and my fifth wheel truck and the Can Am looked brown from the dust.

[A]

The dust.

[B]

Yeah. Got it all cleaned off, got home, unloaded the fifth wheel, dropped the K and M off at the, at the storage spot, took the fifth wheel to the RV dealer, got it dropped off in a rainstorm and then pulled in the house. Twenty minutes later, blizzard it hit.

[A]

You get.

[B]

And I'm telling you, if I would have stopped and stayed and slept for like four or five hours, I'd have been stuck in Toucan Carry, New Mexico still or something. So it, yeah, it's fun driving sometimes, but sometimes you hit some weather and. But like I said, it was good to get home and, and then, you know, got ready and head down to Alabama and, and did the clinic there and then onto the southern. But now the spring grand. It was great time. Appreciate everything Tucson does, you know, hopefully the, the bands that got the Arizona state shoot going on right now. So we'll see how did they actually.

[A]

Flip it for the state shoot.

[B]

Yeah, they got it all done. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, folks, we got to take another quick break and thank one of our show sponsors. 73 Pointers Ranch, Jonesburg, Missouri. Rick and Carla Burke. Best place in the area to go shoot chuckers and pheasants and have a great time. Rick, we got to get you down there.

[B]

Yeah, I need to come in. Hopefully I can do some hunting with you guys and come to your. The annual clay shoot in August, right after the grand.

[A]

It's a lot of fun. It's the Optimist Club charity shoot. They throw a charity shoot. They put it on and it's wonderful. I think last year they had over 100. 100 entries into it. And it's just a good time. With that being said, let's get back to the show. Well, we'll look at some scores and maybe we'll talk about that when we talk about the Southern grand. We'll give a little recap on what we see. So, you know, I'm glad, I'm glad it worked out. I'm glad you shot well. It sounds like everyone shot pretty good down there. And, you know, it's, it's a wonderful place to shoot. I think in, in general, Spring Grounds always been one of the biggest satellite grands in the country, if not the biggest. So, yeah, it's usually the biggest.

[B]

And there's. So there is a lot of shooting stuff to do down there. You know, with all the sporting clays, you know, you got international trap, international skeet ski, you know, you can go out and kind of do about anything you want. It is, you know, it's a great facility. You know, it just, it was a good time and I was glad the weather was nice for once.

[A]

I do like good weather. Well, with that being said, Rick, I think we're, we're out of here today. We've got enough information and, and next time we'll talk a little about the, the southern ground. So we'll see you soon at the next shoot. Thanks for listening, everyone. See you. And the Trap Talk podcast is brought to you in part by RM Shooting Clinics. Have Ricky take your game to the next level. If you want to shoot hundreds of hundreds of hundreds, give Ricky a call today. Zack Nini Financial. We believe in putting people first.