Top Trapshooting Tips & Advice - Compilation Part 1

Summary

Podcast Summary: Trap Talk From The Back Fence
Episode: Top Trapshooting Tips & Advice - Compilation Part 1
Hosts: Zach Denini & Ricky Marshall Jr.
Date: June 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode kicks off Season 4 with an all-star panel, as Zach, Ricky, and guests dig deep into what separates top shooters from the rest. Drawing on years of national and international competition, they compile insights on building a strong practice routine, developing solid mental habits, managing in-the-moment stress, optimizing technical fundamentals, and handling equipment—serving as a masterclass and motivation boost for all levels of trap shooters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mental Preparation and Routine

• Visualization Before Shooting
  • [01:13] Dave: "I try and visualize the perfect shot... How the target looks, where my gun is in relation to that target, and how everything comes together when you pull the trigger."
• Handling Nerves and Staying Consistent
  • [02:29] Dave: "If it's been working for 195 shots, why change it now?"
  • [03:02] Dave: "If you're having issues... maybe try and slow it down."
• Avoiding Overthinking on the Final Shots
  • [02:33] Zach: "...they start trying to be more careful on that last 25... more precise, more aiming with the gun and that generally leads to failure."

2. Practice Routines and Fundamentals

• Target Count and Drill Work
  • [04:25] Zach: "I'd shoot until all those shells were gone... doing 100 to 300 gun mounts a day, every day."
• Key Fundamentals for Consistency
  • [04:43] Zach: "1: Holding still before I called pull. 2: Making sure my head stayed on the gun. 3: Worked a lot of doubles drills..."
• Using Station Work for Weak Spots
  • [05:44] Zach: "I'd set the hard left, shoot a box from one. Go to post five, set a box, shoot a box of rights."

3. Eyes, Hold Points, and Doubles Techniques

• Eye Placement and Target Acquisition
  • [05:59] Zach: "I generally keep my eyes about an inch above the gun in doubles... I'm really marking the spot where it's coming out."
• Hard Focus for Doubles
  • [08:37] Joe: "First thing I do is I have a hard focus on where that target's going to go through... shoot my first pair... never take my eyes off that first bird where it's going through."
• Smooth Transitions and Avoiding Gun-First Problems
  • [10:08] Joe: "Biggest problem... is they shoot that first bird, and they'll have an immediate reaction to try and get their gun over to the second target... when your gun beats your eyes... it's going to make you flinch."
• Building Timing and Rhythm ("Metronome" for Doubles)
  • [12:45] Frank: "Doubles is all set up by the first shot... if you can break that first dot the same place every time, then your gun movement, the second one's always going to be the same."

4. Pressure, Goal Setting, and Enjoyment

• Focus on Process Over Outcome
  • [14:36] Ricky: "I'm out there to break 100 in every event, and if I don't, I don't."
  • [15:45] Zach: "...focus on breaking, you know, those top three scores... I'm just wanting to shoot good... working on, am I doing the right things."
• Letting Go of Pressure to Perform
  • [16:35] Zach: "...the whole time I was thinking, man, I got to break a 97 in signals to keep this thing."

5. Gun Fit, Chokes, and Equipment Insights

• Choke Tightness and Centering
  • [21:21] Leo: "...when you shoot a really tight choke... you can smoke the hell out of half of the bird... shooting a more open choke, you really got to be in the center of it to make it black. And so... it keeps me more in the center than shooting a tight choke."
• Point of Impact Experiments
  • [49:06] Keith: "I've just physically made it shoot 4 inches higher from the center of point of impact... and four inches is a lot of difference, especially in handicap."
• Gun Mount and Stock Fit
  • [37:00] Quinn: "The smallest amount of movement of your face or your head on that stock means a great deal out there at 30, 35 yards."

6. Managing the Moment – Slowing Down and Focus

• Mental Focus for Big Scores
  • [23:55] Chris: "You just shot... your last post, and you just shot 95 birds. You just go back into... be ready when you call pull and go through the same thing. Get that guy off your shoulder and just focus on one bird at a time."
• Slowing the Moment Down
  • [25:44] Zach: "When you say slow down, I think it's mentally, you're not shooting the target slower, you're not being more precise, you're not aiming. You're just taking your time to make sure that you're ready when you call, pull, correct."

7. Stance and Post Adjustments

• Adjusting Stance From One to Five
  • [42:24] Zach & Frank: "Do you have the same stance on every single post? ...What should people be looking at or thinking about when they walk onto the line, post one to five?"
  • [43:31] Ricky: "Your left foot is a little bit in front of your right foot... And then as you go, you shift in direction... I always, you know, my feet aren't straight. They're parallel, shoulder width apart. Okay. But parallel. And as I go from one down the line, I just rotate everything clockwise."

8. Drive-Through and Gun Movement

• Drive-Through Style
  • [51:18] Ricky: "...people have a tendency to pull up to a target and try to shoot at it... Driving through is boom. And the follow through. Keep that gun moving... you're matching the speed of the target with my barrel speed."
• Maintaining Gun Speed
  • [53:32] Zach: "If your gun is on the front of that target and you're maintaining, it's gonna break... if someone... gets to the front and that doesn't break, well, they're going to the target with a 22 mile an hour gun now..."

9. Trigger Control and Reaction

• Developing Trigger Control
  • [54:37] Ricky: "Trigger control is within yourself. Not everybody can do it. Honestly, your eyeballs seeing that target... and being aware of your gun... There it is. And being aware of your gun, everything, and, oh, I'm not on it now. I'm on it. Go..."
• Drills for Trigger Control
  • [56:30] Zach: "One of the drills I did early on was... just put dots, like, on the wall... mount the gun, and then I'd have my dad come out, and I'd say, hey, tell me if it's left. Tell me if it's right. Tell me if it's straight..."

10. Consistency and Routine

• Critical Role of Consistency
  • [60:54] Ivy: "The biggest thing we've noticed with all of the best shooters is it's the same every time... that's been probably one of the biggest things. I'm like, you guys, I'm on the house, but I'm also one eye."
• Transition from Good to Great
  • [62:00] Ivy: "That's probably been the biggest contributor from taking me from like a 95, 96 average in singles to those 98 averages."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Visualization:
  • "I try and visualize the perfect shot. Whether it's a straightaway quarter angle, left, left, or right hand target, I try and mentally frame that in my mind." — Dave [01:13]
• On Handling Pressure:
  • "If it's been working for 195 shots, why change it now?" — Dave [02:29]
• On Fast vs. Slow Doubles:
  • "Doubles is all set up by the first shot. No one believes that they should. The first shot is the key to double." — Frank [12:45]
• On Choke Philosophy:
  • "When you shoot a really tight choke... you can smoke the hell out of half of the bird and it'll make you feel like wow, I'm really in the center of these. You're really not... shooting a more open choke, you really got to be in the center of it to make it black." — Leo [21:21]
• On Fitting the Gun:
  • "The smallest amount of movement of your face or your head on that stock means a great deal out there at 30, 35 yards." — Quinn [37:00]
• On Consistency:
  • "It's the same every time... that's probably been the biggest contributor from taking me from like a 95, 96 average in singles to those 98 averages." — Ivy [60:54 & 62:00]
• On Mental Focus:
  • "Just focus on one bird at a time." — Chris [24:20]
• On Drive-Through Style:
  • "Driving through is boom. And the follow through. Keep that gun moving, you're driving through you... matching the speed of the target with my barrel speed." — Ricky [51:18]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:13] Visualization and pre-shot mental routine
• [02:29] Approaching final shots, handling nerves
• [04:25] Fundamental practice routines
• [08:37] Doubles techniques – eyes, hold points, and transitions
• [12:45] Timing and rhythm critical for doubles
• [14:36] Process over outcome: shooting for enjoyment
• [21:21] Equipment talk: chokes and patterns
• [23:55] Managing pressure and slowing down mentally
• [37:00] Importance of gun fit, tightness, and head movement
• [42:24] Adjusting stance for every post
• [51:18] Drive-through philosophy and movement
• [54:37] Developing trigger control and reaction speed
• [60:54] Routine and consistency for top-level scores

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Key Takeaways

• Consistency is King: From stance to mental approach, the top shooters are meticulous about doing things the same way, every time.
• Mental Game Wins: Visualization, focus, and not overthinking under pressure are universal keys to finishing strong.
• Drills and Deliberate Practice: High repetition with focused goals—especially for doubles and gun mounts—leads to fast improvement.
• Trust Yourself Under Pressure: Don’t shift rhythm, tempo, or style just because the score is high.
• Fit and Fundamentals: Gun fit and mount are non-negotiable for long-term consistency and performance.
• Don’t Overcomplicate Equipment: Find the balance that gives you feedback (e.g., choke openness) and fits your style.

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For more Trap Talk, insights, and unfiltered tips from the best in the game, tune in wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Zach Denini]

Welcome to season four of Trap Talk,

[Ricky Marshall]

brought to you by Craig off the choice of champions.

[Zach Denini]

You know, Ricky, I know you used it on your barrels, but do you even know what RGS stands for?

[Ricky Marshall]

No, Zach, what does it stand for?

[Zach Denini]

Really good.

[Ricky Marshall]

Well, that is true. It is good stuff, folks. I use it to clean my barrels, and it does make them shine.

[Zach Denini]

Only problem is I wear white T shirts when I clean my barrels, and I get them all messy, so I got to be better at that. But it gets all the plastic, all the gunk out. Give them a try, folks. They're great.

[Ricky Marshall]

That's right. Give RGS a try. We appreciate all the support.

[Chris]

You know, what.

[Zach Denini]

What's your process? What are you doing before you start? Maybe the night before? What are your thoughts as a champion? Knowing that you've won it a bunch of times? Knowing that you can win it. It's, you know, one of those events that's kind of yours to win. So what do you think about and then what's your routine going through that day?

[Dave]

Well, before the event starts and stuff? I try and visualize the perfect shot. Whether it's a straightaway quarter angle, left, left, or right hand target, I try and mentally frame that in my mind. How the target looks, where my gun is in relation to that target, and how everything comes together when you pull the trigger. I try and focus on that. Keep a positive attitude. Just really try and focus on the

[Joe]

perfect big shot

[Zach Denini]

every time. And that. And that in itself gets you ready. And then when you are 190 straight and you're closing out that 200, are you changing anything on those last five or 10 shots? Or are you. Are you trying to slow yourself down at all?

[Dave]

Or what's.

[Zach Denini]

What's. When you're finishing a scroll, what are you thinking?

[Dave]

That. That depends on the day. Also, you know, sometimes you get a little too excited and you start trying to overrun yourself, then you're gonna have

[Chris]

to pull it, pull your.

[Dave]

Pull the reins back and say, hey, slow down a little bit. But when you. When I get that close, if. If I feel comfortable, I try and change nothing.

[Zach Denini]

Consistency.

[Chris]

Yep.

[Dave]

If it's been working for 195 shots, why change it now?

[Zach Denini]

Yeah, stay with the same plan. I think. I think one thing we've heard from a lot of people though, is they get to that last box and they start getting nervous and they either start going fast or they start going or they start trying to be more careful on that last 25, you know, be more precise, more aiming with the gun and and that generally leads to failure at some level. I mean, you're. You're just trying to go with that same tempo all the way through, and. And then the exhaustion comes after you finish, Correct.

[Dave]

Absolutely. Yep, yep, yep. And. And like you said, we. We've all been there. We've. We've tried to. We get nervous. We tried to hurry it up or slow it down or change something to make it better. And I usually find that that doesn't work very well. I mean, if. If you're having issues.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Then maybe try and slow it down.

[Zach Denini]

Nowadays, depending on where you go, obviously, you know, and there's crime obviously everywhere.

[Chris]

But.

[Zach Denini]

But I think that that's more from the people affiliated with it, like the puller scores, you know, in certain areas or other people that kind of come in there to scam things than it is the physical shooters. I don't. I don't think that there's a lot of bad people in the. In the group.

[Ricky Marshall]

No, you won't find a better group than shooters. Rather be trapsky or sporting all the shooters. I mean, I shoot all the games as I'm getting Zach into shooting. More sporting, though.

[Dave]

He's.

[Ricky Marshall]

He just travels internationally for sporting, though. He doesn't, you know, you know, but. But that. That's one of the things. Now, one of the big questions is your practice routine. What do you do that differs? It makes you the shooter that you are compared to, like, well, myself. And I think growing up, you're doing the same stuff I did back then, but tell the listeners, kind of.

[Zach Denini]

I think it shifted a lot between when I started and where I am now.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah.

[Zach Denini]

When I started, I could remember going up to Sunnyvale with a bucket of bullets which had 500 shells in it, and I would shoot until all those shells were gone. So I was a big believer in target count. So at the time, I was fundamentally working fundamentals and target count and stressing the body. So not only was I doing, you know, 100 to 300 gun mounts a day, every day, to get ahead of the curve. I was in California, where we could shoot 12 months of the year. So my. My growth was so rapid, my averages went up so fast within a year. You know, went from low 90s to high 90s within a matter of a year, because I was focused on a few things. One, holding still before I called pull. Two, making sure that my head stayed on the gun all the way through the shot. Three, I worked a lot of doubles drills where I would shoot 250 to 500 doubles in an afternoon. And I was very focused on rotation and getting my eyes over to that second bird as quickly as possible. So breaking that first target clean and looking at the second target and, And. And setting variants of height so, you know, high birds, low birds, all that kind of stuff. And I would do a lot of station work. I mean, I'd. I, at the time, if I had trouble on one, I would set the hard left. I shoot a box from one, I'd go to post five, I'd set a box, shoot a box of rights. I mean, that was all the stuff that I was doing then. So that I don't have any, like, stop, move, or flinch move. I feel like when I get my eyes too low on a target that's going up at 16 yards, whether it's a double or. Or a single.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Zach Denini]

If I'm too low, I feel like it beats me. And I throw the gun over the top, and then I stop the gun and shoot behind. So I generally keep my eyes about an inch above the gun in doubles, but in doubles especially, I get tighter. So instead of being really, really wide where I'm looking for all these angles, I'm looking. I'm really marking the spot where it's coming out.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yes. And that's where you want to do for doubles. You want to mark the spot on the house, mark the spot on a tree, wherever it is, each target your first bird.

[Zach Denini]

I would think my eyes are tightest around the gun in doubles because I'm. I know that that gun target's coming right to my eyes.

[Dave]

And.

[Zach Denini]

And so I'm looking, and all I'm looking for is slight angle variation. Is it going a little bit left?

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Zach Denini]

Is it going a little right? Is it going up?

[Ricky Marshall]

So in handicap today, where were your eyes at?

[Zach Denini]

Well, my eyes were raining. It was raining above the gun.

[Chris]

But what.

[Zach Denini]

What I think threw me off a little bit, and this was my own personal opinion on it. These houses here in Ohio are a lot bigger, and I was holding on my same corners of the house like I normally do. And when I was coming back for the straightaway on one to five, I was shorting it because there was a lot more.

[Ricky Marshall]

There was your movement, your move. You weren't. You weren't locking in on that target fast enough to go, oh, okay.

[Zach Denini]

All the way over, right?

[Chris]

All the way over.

[Zach Denini]

Because on those bigger houses, I feel like that right. Takes a little bit longer to get out because it's coming through.

[Ricky Marshall]

And.

[Zach Denini]

And on that, you know, left hand straightaway on five, you know, I was basically shooting the back side of it every time consistently. Last box, I dropped my hold points down and in, you know, like it, like the imagining the box was, you know, normal size. I put my hold points where the box would be if the houses were smaller. And then everything seemed to correct itself in a good position. But above the gun. Above, above the gun still see the target and my eyes lock onto it. And then I, then I run the gun through.

[Ricky Marshall]

So, and that's part, you know, Zach shoots a little bit different than I do. You know, I'm on the house for everything my eyes are. I keep my eyes the same. Now I do do that doubles, of course, you're. You're staring more at one focal point. You know, you narrow everything up on doubles for your first shot.

[Zach Denini]

And then, and then once we break the first shot in doubles, like I'm breaking it, but as soon as I break it, my eyes kick over to the other truck.

[Frank]

So I'm.

[Zach Denini]

What do you do in double specifically? If we could kind of break down the technicals. Are you on the house shooting that first shot? Are you spot shooting it? And then once you shoot the first shot, are you moving your eyes as quickly as possible? Are you going with the gun or what? What is your technique if you could break it down?

[Greg]

Joe?

[Joe]

So, so for me with doubles, when I set up, the first thing I do is I have a hard focus on where that target's going to go through or where I'm see go through. A lot of times I shoot first and double, so I don't get to see the first target. So I take a good long look at where I think the target's going to come through. And I'll hold a little bit low and a little bit outside of that so that I just make a move upward to meet the target. After I've shot my first pair and everybody else has gone through, I never take my eyes off that first bird where it's going through. I have a hard dead set focus on where that first bird's going through. And I watch to make sure that it's not very. If you get a kid, whenever I see somebody going out to load the house, I pay attention to that because when that kid's down there loading the house and you're shooting, he's dropping targets in there. He's moving that thing around and it's going to change the way that those targets come out. They're not going to come out consistent every time.

[Chris]

Smooth.

[Joe]

Like if nobody's in there, nobody's Touching it.

[Dave]

So you need to pay attention to that.

[Joe]

So whenever I see a kid go in the house, I know, okay, these targets are going to vary a little bit. I can't just pop this thing a foot and a half out of the box. I got to shoot it two and a half foot out of the box,

[Zach Denini]

give it an extra foot.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Joe]

So I have a hard focus on where that target's going through, and I'll pick out a bush or a tree or a house or a telephone pole, whatever it's going through in the background where I want to make my shot on that target, and I just stare in that spot. I'll sit there, I'll pull my gun up, I'll get my eyes focused out there, make sure my eyes aren't coming back to the gun whatsoever.

[Hunter]

Call, pull.

[Joe]

And as soon as I see that flash under my gun, I make my shot and immediately get my eyes over to the second target before I move the gun. And then my gun will follow my eyes over to it and make the shot. The biggest problem that people do in doubles is they shoot that first bird, and they'll have an immediate reaction to try and get their gun over to the second target. When your gun beats your eyes to that target, it's going to make you flinch, and you're going to do bad things. So you need to shoot the first bird. Have a nice smooth shot. Everything smooth, no problems, not thinking about anything else in the first one. Get your eyes over, and your gun's gonna follow, and everything is gonna go smooth and quick that way. And that's. That's my secret. What, what I think works. You need to play around with your hold point on your first bird, too. Everybody thinks, oh, I gotta shoot it fast. I gotta shoot it fast. You need to shoot it where you're comfortable shooting it. You don't have to shoot it fast because I shoot them fast or Ricky shoots them fast. You need to shoot what's comfortable for you.

[Zach Denini]

So it takes away from that. That whole Earl scripture story that you just. You just told us right there. You know, those are some huge, huge takeaways. And I appreciate you, you know, sharing that journey with us so far.

[Ivy]

So.

[Zach Denini]

So going into that said, hey, let's go shoot a thousand doubles, what was he telling you that day that was different, that you didn't know going into that thousand.

[Frank]

So I think I'd been shooting. I'm gonna think back. It was 12, 13 months I'd been shooting, and no one from where I was from, we didn't have any good double shooter because there weren't a lot of shoot trap shooters in my area, so they really had no concept of what they were doing. Basically what he did was for the first 200 targets, all I did was shoot the first bird. That's it. I shot the first bird. Didn't even worry about the second bird. He said, you need to learn to break the first bird. The way he does it, the way I do it was spot shooting. It works for me. I can do it the other way where you chase it a little bit. But the spot shooting works for me because that's what I learned first. And once we did that and I got understood that concept of spot shooting, you know, where to put the gun, what I call inside the V, outside the V for the birds. Then we worked on the second target. And basically what he told me about the second target is it's just a singles target. Don't freak out. You know, you can break it before it hits the ground.

[Zach Denini]

That's all matter 100%.

[Frank]

So, you know, that was the big thing. And something I've learned through the years is if I shoot the first target too quick, it really messes me up on the second target, timing wise. And when I talk about doubles to people, I'm like, you know, if you know what a metronome is, where you play the piano and they got that click clock, click clock. Doubles is all set up by the first shot. No one believes that they should. The first shot is the key to double. If you can break that first dot the same place every time, then your gun movement, the second one's always going to be the same. And Zach, we shot enough together now, you know, I get a little quick on the first bird, and then I get all the pieces on a second. I may flinch, I may fall down. I take my gun down, pick it back up. I look like a, you know, a ticket. With his hands cut off out there

[Ricky Marshall]

is, don't go and worry about making the team, okay? Set that goal to make the All American team, if that's one of your goals. But go and shoot and have fun. And if you shoot and have fun, you're going to get points, you're going to shoot better. But don't go out there and tell, I got to make the All American. I got to make the American team. You know, the last couple years I've been captain, the, you know, two years ago was probably the biggest grind going into the Cardinal Classic. Sixteen points ahead of Keith Ditto and, you know, going, okay and. And I popped 100 in one of the handicaps, and. And, you know, there's a lot of money there, so I was fortunate to do that and gained a little leeway. But, like, last year, I had a little bigger spread over, you know, Keith and Chris Vendel, and I went into the Cardinal just to shoot. And that's what I do every shoot. Do I want to get points?

[Dave]

Yes.

[Ricky Marshall]

But do I stand out there and, like. No, I'm out there to break 100 in every event, and if I don't, I don't.

[Zach Denini]

And that's a good mentality that I think we need to spend a second on. I think there's so many people that, you know, they think, I want to get a sponsorship or I want to be involved. I want to make the All American team. I want to do all these things right, and they put all this pressure on their shoulders, and if you haven't done it yet, it becomes so overwhelming. And at the end of the day, I would say, you know, focus on breaking, you know, those top three scores. I mean, for me, something that keeps me really honest, especially in the singles, is like, okay, I want to go out and I want to break a top three score every time I shoot regardless, and I want to, you know, be able to do that. But I'm not putting that pressure on. I'm just wanting to shoot good. I'm just. I'm working on, you know, am I. Am I doing the right things in this event, you go back to process and then you just let it happen. Whenever. Whenever I thought to myself, okay, I gotta get these points. I usually mess in the last post, especially if I was kind of on the teeter totter between. Between, you know, 98 and 97.

[Ricky Marshall]

I remember.

[Zach Denini]

You've seen it. You've seen it, right? You're like, hey, what the heck are you doing? I'm like, well, I was worried about that. You're like, don't think about that, right? Like, don't, you know, don't miss a target because you're worried about what you're gonna get. And I can remember it as clear as day. The first time I missed, I was razor thin, close to having a 99 average in singles for the year. And I went out and I shot the last hundred singles, and I didn't need to shoot it because I was already had the 99 average and I was already done. And it was at the Heartland grand, and it was the first time I went to the Heartland Grand, I think, Rick. And it was that farewell Singles on Sunday. And I knew that if I broke a 97 or better, I had my 99 average. And so I went out there, and the whole time I was thinking, man, I got to break a 97 in signals to keep this thing.

[John]

It's blocking, you know, 40% of our vision. When I've got it down here at the hip, I've got full peripheral vision. I've got depth perception, and the gun is just down here in the, you know, in the bottom of my vision. So, yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't have to really think about it. I just look at it. So one thing, though, and this kind of. This is something I've had to learn to cope with over the years when I trick shoot, especially when I throw four, five, six targets up. Okay, I'll look at that one. And while I'm shooting it, my eyes already looking at the next one. And when I shoot it, my eyes already at the third one. And so my eyes can focus and bounce really, really quick, which doesn't help me on the sporting clays course when I need to look at one all the way across the field. You know what I mean? And so it's also, it's an. It's an aggressive sport. And so when I. When I pull the trigger, I'm slapping it and I'm pulling it as hard as I can because it's got to go now. And where. When I want a sporting Clayton or a Trapski, you know, you try to be real squeezed and methodical. And so over the years, I've had to really trained myself to flip the switch depending on if I'm in front of a crowd or. Or if I'm, you know, shooting a sporting clays tournament.

[Dave]

Yeah, that.

[Zach Denini]

That makes a lot of sense. And like what you said there with the switching of the eyes, I think that comes into play a lot. Like when we're shooting doubles, like, as soon as we shoot a doubles target, you know, the two that come out and trap, bang. And my eyes, like, the quicker I can get them onto that second shot, I don't even want to see the smoke of the first shot. And that allows us to get in between shots really, really quick. So, you know, that correlates.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, because your. Your first target doubles, you're shooting as

[Chris]

fast as you can.

[Zach Denini]

Oh, yeah, yeah, you're not.

[Chris]

And.

[Ricky Marshall]

And I don't. I mean, I move the gun, I'll spot you, but as soon as I'm pulling the trigger, I don't want to. I see it in my pr but I don't want to watch it and go, oh. And then you freeze. So I understand that because. So when I'm shooting sporting on a true pair, I see that exactly what you're talking about. I'll see that first target and I'm like. And then my eyes go the second one and.

[Zach Denini]

And I'm like, it's not done yet.

[Ricky Marshall]

Okay, you gotta shoot the first one. And this just happened. So we just came from.

[Zach Denini]

I did.

[Ricky Marshall]

Zach can make it Iowa State shoot.

[Chris]

Right.

[Ricky Marshall]

And my buddy Ryan Glow, who runs the Omaha Gun Club, he had an awesome shoot over there. I mean, won everything basically.

[Greg]

So you know that we look at that first. Obviously we're trying to get your eye down the center of the rib and get the gun where it's seated well in your, in your shoulder pocket. And there's a lot of myths about things like pitch and what it doesn't. And some of it is really over exaggerated. I mean, things like pitch, it's pretty simple. You're trying to get the pad seated evenly in your shoulder. Okay. But it's, it's a stair step process. A lot of the things are similar. You know, I run into things with sporting clays and I have guys, you know, they want to drop comb because they shoot gun down. And, and my comment to that is, well, no, you really don't shoot gun down. You shoot off shoulder. If you want to see the people shoot gun down, they're on the international team. I mean, that's just the way it is. Yep. You know, we, we typically with target shotguns, we typically are looking for parallel drop at the comb and parallel offsets. And the reason for that is even the best of the best don't mount the gun exactly right at the same time. So with that being parallel and parallel, if I'm a little farther forward, a little farther back, whatever it is, same picture shoots in the same place every, every time. And that's what we're looking for is consistency because we do this off of visual reference. Okay. So if our eye is not in the same place, the visual reference doesn't work. Because quite honestly, when the target's in the air, what do you see? You see the end of the barrel and the target?

[Frank]

Yeah.

[Greg]

The end of the barrel looks the same from any direction.

[Frank]

Correct.

[Zach Denini]

No matter if I'm this side, this side, this side, however I'm looking at it, that barrel looks the same. And when I miss a target, if I'm not in the same spot with my head, I might not Know why I missed that target.

[Greg]

Exactly right.

[Ricky Marshall]

Well, and that's the one thing. And you know, doing a stock with Bobby, I mean, you know, winning. Fred made my first stock right before you, you purchased the company and I still had my pattern stock which, and Jimmy was, was with you then and, and, or with Fred then. And when he did that stock, you know, he's like how do you want it done? And I said, well I don't want it to cut my face open anymore

[Zach Denini]

and I want it to fit me. Well, you know, you said boiling a bird. We've talked about your equipment. Your point of impact, kind of your style is varying depending on the day. Chokes. Are you shooting pretty tight stuff or you know, shell wise choke wise. What's that look like?

[Keith]

No, not really.

[Leo]

I mean I used to always be a part of that. You know, you want to shoot as tight as possible to help you do whatever. Well, what I found is when you shoot a really tight choke, let's say really, really, really tight, you can smoke the hell out of half of the bird and it'll make you feel like wow, I'm really in the center of these. You're really not. You know, you smoke the big ball of smoke and hit a big hunk is still flying off. I found that shooting a more open choke, you really got to be in the center of it to make it black. And, and so when you're black and in a 16 yard target, let's say with 20,000ths, you better be in the center because it ain't gonna break. And so that keeps me more in the center than, than shooting a tight choke and getting smoke off a part of the target.

[Zach Denini]

I've never, I've never even heard of anyone talk about it that way like that just make a lot of sense.

[Leo]

Start looking at it. You just start looking at it. You'll see it.

[Ricky Marshall]

So mod then for singles I'm shooting

[Leo]

a 25 basically so light improvement or light.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah is what it be.

[Zach Denini]

And then, and then from the fence you tighten up or 25 all day.

[Leo]

Well that's, you know what, I don't know. That's a Wilkinson 27 yard choke and he did it back in 04 or something. Oh five. And I haven't checked it. I can't remember.

[Ricky Marshall]

I would say it's probably between 36 and 38,000 in.

[Leo]

Yeah, I know what it looks like on the padding board and I've got one of them mics and I've, I've forgotten what it says. I. Yeah I Suppose I should have studied up before this.

[Zach Denini]

Hey, that's okay.

[Leo]

Don't make these goddamn questions any tighter. I'm going to shoot you right through the screen. Make this fun and easy because, well,

[Ricky Marshall]

so, like your doubles, are you shooting like most of us? Are you shooting that Mod on the second shot or you shooting that like a mod? Im.

[Leo]

Mod 20, 30.

[Ricky Marshall]

Okay, so same.

[Zach Denini]

Let's spend some time on that. Slowing the moment down, because a lot of listeners probably don't even know what that means. No, if you, if you're going to explain that, Dave. And for me, as I start shooting bigger scores, I start winding up, getting more stress, more tense, and wanting to go faster. What, what, what are you doing when you're closing a score to slow that moment down? Is it breathing? Is it thinking? Is it being sure? What are the things that you're focusing on?

[Chris]

Well, you know, I've. In baseball, you know, the diehard AIDS fan. But listen to a lot of guys that were really good and they. They took a deep breath and you can do that. That works somewhat. But really, you know, you always get that guy on your shoulder that you got to kick him off your shoulder. You know, all this other stuff coming in. But you just shot, say, your last post, and you just shot 95 birds. You just go back into.

[Zach Denini]

You have to be ready when you

[Chris]

call Paul and go through the same thing. Get that guy off your shoulder and just focus on the one bird at a time. I mean, that's what I mean. There's a lot of other things that come in. I mean, I think, I think Ricky was shooting with us and Bill Martin, Petey and I, and Jeff Wagner. Jeff Wagner, remember? Yep. He went from five to one. He had five shots that never broke a hunter straight before. And, man, we were all pulling for him. And one slipped away on the last post, but which. I don't know if it was Ricky or Bill. Somebody tried to break the axe and said, don't screw this up.

[Mitchell]

That was Bill.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Zach Denini]

And that. That's a constant. Bill, I mean, I think he's told everyone, don't screw this up when they go into the last five shots on a handicap. Some people do, some people don't. I met it. It is what it is.

[Dave]

He.

[Ricky Marshall]

He told me that when I was 400, 395, straight the all around. Oh, my God, don't F this up. And I was like, I got 3.95

[Chris]

in the bag, but it's got to be a positive. I. I feel you got to be a positive and they say you don't count. Right. But I'd get the 95. I'd say, damn, I'm 95 straight. Let's, let's see what happens. 96. 97. Oh, good score. Got three more shots. 98.

[Zach Denini]

Damn.

[Chris]

You get 99 and then the 100. Don't screw this up.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, I think that's powerful.

[Zach Denini]

What I want the listeners to know is when you say slow down, I think it's mentally, you're not shooting the target slower, you're not being more precise, you're not aiming. You're just taking your time to make sure that you're ready. When you call, pull correct.

[Chris]

Dave, the moment is going so fast, you put the gun up, your eyes are set, the gun is set. Am I ready? Boom. I'm ready. You're mentally, I'm ready. Pull. Throw it. Boom. I mean, I'm shooting a lot of birds now and you know, it doesn't have to be a monster bird. It can be a pop up. So it's the same, same philosophy. You don't have to, you don't have to miss.

[Zach Denini]

Hey, folks, I got to give a quick thank you to integrated companies out of Utah. They're a great company. They support trap shooting and they support trap talk. Ricky, tell them what they do, they

[Ricky Marshall]

do about anything you can imagine for all businesses of all size. But they do insurance, hr, payroll taxes, accounting. But we would like to thank Terry and Flynn Paulson for supporting us. We really appreciate it.

[Zach Denini]

Absolutely. If you're a business owner in the trap shooting community and you like supporting brands that support trap support integrated companies out of Utah. You know, Rick, the only thing looks better than these hats we're wearing right now, it's a bunch of gold and silver from Ron Prescott at Mid State Precious Metal. Show them the goods.

[Ricky Marshall]

Listen, all I got silver right now. I won't bring the gold out for

[Zach Denini]

Zach, but you know, I always want to get that.

[Ricky Marshall]

Gold shotgun shells, 10 ounce bars. Folks, he could do anything for you. For all your shoot needs, give Ron Prescott a call. Midstate Precious metals dot com.

[Zach Denini]

He's a great guy. Support him. He supports all the shoots. He supports trap talk. If you're thinking gold or silver, you need to be thinking Ron Prescott at Midstate Precious Metals. Thank you, Ron.

[Ricky Marshall]

That's right. Thanks for all the support.

[Zach Denini]

You know, Rick, I, I know you've had a lot of involvement with them since the beginning, since they started. But I really love the way that the shot tracks the, you know, catches the doubles from shot to shot. With the looping, you know, tell the folks what they need to know about that system.

[Ricky Marshall]

It's the best system out there. It's like having a coach on the end of your barrel, like we say, but going especially in double from first shot to second shot. You can see it on the graph. You can see it on video.

[Zach Denini]

Yeah. I mean, if you talk about that J hook with Sean, Holly, and all them, I mean, it'll literally show that loop, and I think that's really powerful if you're doing it. They've supported the show since the beginning. They love trap shooting. They're great people. Give them a shot, folks. They make a great product.

[Ricky Marshall]

Take Aim Technologies.

[Frank]

So.

[Zach Denini]

So for that being said, it sounds like doubles was your favorite out of the games. Is that correct?

[Owen]

Yeah, yeah. What you do the best? What's your favorite?

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Keith]

So.

[Zach Denini]

So let's get into the time when you were shooting doubles at your best. What were you doing? What philosophies and what styles were using? Were you like me and Ricky, where you're down on the house and you're driving through where you're holding up higher. What were the things that you were doing in your doubles game that made you great?

[Owen]

I shot what you'd call a moving gun. I'm down on the house, as I call it, call for the bird. The gun guards coming up. And as soon as that beat hits that target, the gun goes off, and we go chase the second one down.

[Ricky Marshall]

Anticipate the target.

[Zach Denini]

So you actually are calling pole, and you're rolling that gun off the line purposefully, so you're not still. You're rolling in, and then that target comes out.

[Ricky Marshall]

You're.

[Zach Denini]

You're snapping it.

[Owen]

You've got to be flexible enough to maybe move a little right or left, you know, especially back when they had the handsets. Yeah, but the pet traps make it a whole lot easier.

[Zach Denini]

So. So were you in the house rolling up, or were you above the house

[Owen]

rolling up Just right at the right. At the lip.

[Zach Denini]

Right at the lip. So you're calling pull. You're rolling out with it. You're snapping that bird in. And I mean, you shot that first bird pretty quickly. Did you not try to.

[Ricky Marshall]

He does, but he heat. You watch him. And it's the same.

[Owen]

Yeah.

[Ricky Marshall]

Boom, boom.

[Owen]

Yeah.

[Zach Denini]

How. How about chokes and shells and point of impacts and things like that?

[Nate]

Were you.

[Zach Denini]

Were you shooting one ounce? Ounce and a light.

[Owen]

Light or shoot one ounce eight. And when I get them one, I'll

[Zach Denini]

say, okay, yeah, you know, both shots?

[Owen]

No, the Second shot, I. I chase it with a three gram, seven and a half.

[Zach Denini]

Okay, so you. You're like, ricky, you give it the gas on that second shot.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, I shoot the 1250.

[Owen]

Yeah. No, I don't.

[Zach Denini]

You're super gas. He's super gassy.

[Ricky Marshall]

I want to see boom, boom.

[Owen]

I'm not mad at that. Mad at the target as he is.

[Zach Denini]

Not that mad at him.

[Ricky Marshall]

But today I did shoot around a doubles practice this morning with Justin. I haven't seen, because he was struggling a little bit. So everybody's like, what are you doing down here? And I said, can a guy bring a gun to a practice trap? You know, But I. In the last pair, I was like, oh, I got five handicaps and I got seven lights.

[Zach Denini]

I'll just even it out.

[Ricky Marshall]

So I put two lights in. Boom, boom. And the guy standing goes, did you just shoot a light? Like, you already stated the foot position. Correct. That is number one, in my opinion, is your feet position. If your feet aren't right. Because everybody's built different, everybody turns different, is more flexible than others. I know when I was, you know, 15, 16 years old, I could stand however I wanted and break a target. But I look at it as. Can you stand that way and break 500 targets?

[Zach Denini]

Yeah. And it was one of those things, like I said, the youth, the callousness of your youth, right. You're young and you're like, well, I can do it this way. And you can. You can definitely, like, you've got the muscles and the twitch and the ability to be able to say, okay, I'm going to stand the wrong way, and I can still throw my body to that target and break it. But. But how many times can you do it, first of all? And, and, and how much strength, how much strain are you putting on your body, right? Like. Like, how much more activity are you using? You know, I would say the goal would be break the target with the least amount of effort possible in my mind.

[Owen]

Right.

[Zach Denini]

I mean, if you want to be able to do it, you know, a thousand times, break it with the least effort, not with the most effort. That being said, everyone knows winners shoot winning.

[Frank]

Are we doing the end work?

[Ricky Marshall]

My line with you is always the hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of hundreds and hundreds. But in the hundreds, there's a few hundreds in there that. Zach, I'm not kidding you. I'm like, I get done, and I've told Jody this or told my dad this. I'm like, that was one of the easiest hundreds I've ever broke it Was

[Pete]

like, well, I have to say, I. I give Frank credit for this, but I. I took his charge and control, so. And that's what I remember.

[Ricky Marshall]

He.

[Pete]

He just. So back then. It's coming back to me now. I tried to just pop, you know.

[Ricky Marshall]

No, no, surely not.

[Zach Denini]

Not Mitchell Loveless.

[Chris]

No, not. Not pop.

[Pete]

I tried to shoot him a little quick, but when things are really going well, you get the first one quick and then you make a cont. A more controlled move to the second one. Like Rick does and is really good at it, but occasionally we get going too fast and it's just, you know, and that's what he really helped me with. He's like, hey, you don't have to shoot them both that quick. If you'll just get the first one quick, it allows you more time on the second one. It's still up in the air and take a look at it. Don't just sling over there and shoot at it, you know, so.

[Zach Denini]

So charge and control. Attack the first target with a lot of. A lot of, you know, speed and ability, and then look at the second target and make a cleaner shot into it. Which is easier said than done based on me and used shooting abilities and doubles. I mean, me and Mitchell on the grand squad sometimes, like. And then, oh, we'd miss and we

[Ricky Marshall]

like, Ricky, just look at us watch guys shoot. And I'm like, jesus, would you slow down a little bit? That's what Frank. Frank would always say. And he was weird. He'd go, you want to shoot it Reckless, but in control there.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Zach Denini]

Barrel bird, matching speed. Because I think a lot of people target flashes in whatever game they're shooting, you know, it flashes and then they're like, oh, crap, I'm behind. And then they throw the gas on and they whip and they whip and they get that front edge.

[Greg]

Yes.

[Zach Denini]

And then once they're in that front edge where they're like, okay, we're losing vision, then they slap the brakes on and then bad things happen. So no man's land. No man's land.

[Chris]

So.

[Zach Denini]

So when you're talking about that, how are you controlling that side of it? Do you believe that that's all with vision and that's all with connection scene?

[Nate]

I think so. And now you have to train this in my mental reality routine as well, so you can't panic. You know, the less I panic, the better it is now. Easier said than done, right?

[Owen]

Yeah.

[Nate]

But when you. When you truly work on it and train it, you hopefully your percentage of not getting into that position Goes higher. But my main focus of like. And again, to eliminate any of this confusion is when the bird appears, my only main goal is to get the barrel to the bird. And, you know, and in trap, this happens pretty instinctively, so we don't have to really think it.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah.

[Nate]

Shooting long crossers and sporting or American ski, this is way more visible, as

[Joe]

Zach understood in Dubai.

[Zach Denini]

Well, yeah, I. I just think that there's something.

[Frank]

Where's that at?

[Zach Denini]

I'm like, it's over there, way over there.

[Ivy]

But.

[Zach Denini]

But there's something to be said because where I'm at, I'm on the house in. In ata trap, and I could potentially get the barrel to the bird quickly. But then in that spot, it's not the premier spot to break the bird. Like, I could get it, you know, four or five feet out of the house if I wanted to. But the reality is, for me, me, I don't want to shoot anything under that zone, because it's not.

[Nate]

Now, let me talk about that in trap specifically. So my. My thought to this in trap is like, you still let the bird get up and get out. You start to move off the house, and I'm not getting there as quick as I can in that sense. It's that timing. That's how I'm building in my timing. I want the barrel to the bird in that. The start of that. That sweet spot. So then I'm only connection is. Is maybe a foot and a half. So that's the critique. But what I'm finding is that technique works in sports, boarding, ski, track. You just have to critique.

[Zach Denini]

So in bunker, you're coming out. You see that, you see that streak? If you're catching with the eye and you're. You're coming all the way until breakpoint, right? I mean, there's never a let it go.

[Owen]

Right?

[Zach Denini]

You're not wanting to.

[Nate]

It's time to.

[John]

It's gonna beat you.

[Zach Denini]

Yes, it's gonna beat you.

[Nate]

It's a game of how well can you make it.

[Greg]

Right.

[Ricky Marshall]

Did you ever shoot much bunker?

[Zach Denini]

Yeah, I mean, I've shot a few times, you know, and what I. What I realized when I shot it my best was, it's gonna beat me. And if I didn't get too nervous about it and just said, okay, get my eyes on it, the better and quicker I can get my eyes on it. And the smoother I was with the gun movement, the better I shot.

[Ricky Marshall]

They always say smooth. And I do this in American trap when I teach is, if you're smooth, are you.

[Zach Denini]

Are you more like me and Ricky, where you're on the house and like letting the target clear or are you different? Like, what do you do? And let's just get into that process. Chris.

[Quinn]

I don't hold a real high gun.

[Mitchell]

More level.

[Quinn]

I'm close to the roof of the house and super tight on the gun.

[Dave]

Tight.

[Zach Denini]

So when you say super tight, you get in.

[Quinn]

I'm pulling it in my shoulder and as tight as I can get with my face on the gun.

[Zach Denini]

And that's, that's how I shoot. I mean, it's almost everyone tells me

[Ricky Marshall]

you get in the gun tighter than anybody I've ever seen.

[Zach Denini]

Tighter than him.

[Ricky Marshall]

Oh, absolutely. You ought to watch him shoot.

[Zach Denini]

He gets low and, and I don't want any movement. I mean, my hands are tight. Everything's tight to the point where everything turns white.

[Ricky Marshall]

And I mean, he doesn't have those, those stuff on his hands, you know, the calluses from working.

[Zach Denini]

You don't get that many financial advising folks.

[Chris]

You.

[Zach Denini]

That is, that is some. That is some definite shooting. Not from a pencil. I didn't get that at my keyboard with my double laptop screen. You know, hey, John's even laughing on that one. I got. Finally got him. When you, when you get the producer, you know, so, so, so you're really tight.

[Nate]

Yeah.

[Zach Denini]

So why, let's talk about that. Why are you tight? What are your thought on that?

[Quinn]

My thought on that is because the, the smallest amount of movement of your face or your head on that stock means a great deal out there at 30, 35 yards.

[Pete]

Absolutely.

[Quinn]

Like eight. I did it in math one time. Like an eighth inch move of up or over on the comb of your gun is probably two and a half feet out there where you, where you shoot the target, minimum.

[Zach Denini]

You're kidding me. No, see, I've never done that. I'm just, I'm just a dumb Italian. Listen, I just mount the gun tight because that's what hits the targets hardest.

[Ricky Marshall]

But listen, and like he just said that because I did this years ago in a clinic and I had a bunch of engineers and they were like, well, that's not going to make a difference. And I said, well, I could show you. Well, how are you going to show me? I said, well, we're going to need a level, a laser. We're going to. And the one guy's like, well, I know a guy. And they. And we did this, and this was in Jersey. We stake stuff and showed. And you could see at the distance and it was 20 at 35, 40 yards. I can't remember the exact disc, but it was like 21 inches.

[Quinn]

Yes.

[Ricky Marshall]

And they go well, what's that? And I said well if you have a pattern, that's a 30 inch circle.

[Quinn]

Yep.

[Zach Denini]

And you're getting your pattern.

[Owen]

There's.

[Ricky Marshall]

It was almost like 90% is over under the target and they just went

[Quinn]

a couple hundred BBs to absolute eight, 10 maybe.

[Ricky Marshall]

And that's everything is fun to watch. And you know, see that you transitioned from shooting just sporting to shooting bunker and then took it serious because that's what you have to do, as you know.

[Zach Denini]

I mean if he's, if he's going to compete at the highest level, I could understand how the other games are going to suffer a little bit when you're transitioning to this game. I mean that makes sense to me completely. I, I guess talking a little bit more about technical. So we can maybe give some tips back to our trap shooting listeners. What are you doing on a bunker field? I mean are you really making sure you're pivoting from the, the hips, the waist, lower body? I mean are you a high gun hold point shooter? Just kind of walk us through what you're doing in your rationale on a bunker field.

[Hunter]

So I, I hold just a little bit above the mark, you know, not a lot. If you take it, you take a federal paper and you hold it up, extend your arm all the way out and set the brass on the mark about where the top of the brass is. That's about where my guns hold. The whole point is so very low. Yeah. And then I'm looking just above, just above my bead and I try and pick a spot to set my eyes on and wait for the target, the flash of the target to take my eyes in a direction.

[Zach Denini]

So you say you look above your bead. How much? I mean the width of a quarter. I mean a quarter high, a half quarter high. I mean does it depend on the light of the day or how high are you looking?

[Hunter]

So depends on the light of the day, what kind of background they is. You know, generally the better contrast I have on the range, the bigger that gap's going to be a little bit. But I still probably don't ever get more than maybe an eighth of an

[Zach Denini]

hour inch above my bead.

[Mitchell]

Above your bead.

[Ricky Marshall]

Okay. Now how far out are you looking?

[Hunter]

Yeah, like you take the there in Tucson where you got that ramp. My eyes are looking two thirds of the way up that ramp.

[Ricky Marshall]

Okay.

[Hunter]

And then you know my beads halfway up the ramp.

[Ricky Marshall]

You're not Letting your eyes get too far out?

[Hunter]

No, I. I'm a firm believer that a lot of guys get too much separation in their gun and their eyes, and so your gun then has to come to your eyes before, before it can go to the target.

[Zach Denini]

I said, I never want that.

[Hunter]

And that, that actually happened to me this last weekend in the final down there in the Dominican. I started off with the same gap that I'd shot all a qualification with. And for whatever reason, the lighting change, nickel aspect of being a bunker shooter, focusing on stance, gun mount, that kind of stuff. And I got away from what really got me to a really high level, and that was my instincts. And so the biggest change I made when I got home from Tokyo was I worked on changing my mindset when I walk out onto a field. You know, instead of, instead of worried about the mechanics. You do all that in practice. You practice the mechanics. And when you're practicing mechanics, you can't worry about score, you can't worry about hits and misses. You have to worry about, did I execute those mechanics properly? Well, then when you get into competition, the only way you can execute your mechanics and your game plan properly is if you get your eyes on the target correctly and look at the target correctly and then give yourself time to get there and break it. And all the, all of the mechanics and your game plan, approach to breaking a target, those all happen subconsciously if you allow them to happen because you've practiced them.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yep. That is good, good advice for all our listeners out there. Because it's the same way, when I teach people, I don't worry about what their score is. I'm wanting to make sure their mechanics, fundamentals are right and then everything comes afterwards.

[Zach Denini]

Get as much value as we can for the listeners today.

[Ricky Marshall]

Absolutely. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm a big advocate of stance.

[Zach Denini]

Question number one. Do you have the same stance on every single post?

[Pete]

No.

[Zach Denini]

Okay.

[Frank]

No.

[Zach Denini]

So what do you mean by that? What, what, what should people be looking at or thinking about when they walk onto the line, post one to five? Like, what are the thoughts that go through your mind?

[Ricky Marshall]

Well, of course, you know, I lead off. I just, I'm more straight. We'll just say on post one because I was lead off. So I'm starting on one now. When I walk up to the post, any post, I'm always checking my feet first before I start, as, you know, you guys always give me crap as we're shooting and, you know, what are

[Zach Denini]

you doing down there?

[Keith]

I'm.

[Ricky Marshall]

Hey, I'm making sure I'm ready, you know, and so I always, you know, my feet aren't straight. They're parallel, shoulder width apart. Okay. But parallel. And as I go from one down the line, I just rotate everything clockwise. Okay. Okay.

[Zach Denini]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you take your feet and you place them right under your shoulders. That feels comfortable for you. And then your left foot is a little bit in front of your right foot.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, but parallel.

[Zach Denini]

Parallel. And then as you go, you shift in direction. And for you people listening on, you know, audio and not watching us on YouTube right now, I'm kind of using my hands to show the diagram of which direction he's going. But I'm believing, you know, he's rotating. I. I bet you're about to pull up a picture with some, some information. I can see him looking through his phone when he does this. He's usually got something, something good we're going to use.

[Ricky Marshall]

So these are old school, but like, if you can see it. Zach, tape. That's post one.

[Zach Denini]

Okay.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Zach Denini]

So that position now, now let's stay on that. And before we go farther, pull that back up, Rick.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yep. And we'll give this to John. John can. I'll send these over to John and he could post them on there.

[Zach Denini]

So let's just take that for a right handed shooter on post one. Okay. Now in that position, we've got more open to the left. Now why are we more open to the left on one?

[Ricky Marshall]

So that way you could swing to the left angle.

[Zach Denini]

Okay. So if someone is breaking the backside of the lefts on one. You know, Rick, I just love having the peace of mind and knowing that if I'm traveling or I'm flying, something happens, I can get my winig and my craig off replaced quickly and easily without costing me a bunch of money.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, exactly. The gun and trophy insurance, it's the best out there to ensure your guns, sure. Your trophy, animals, everything.

[Zach Denini]

Thank you to the whole Cushman family for supporting the show and everything they do for trap shooting.

[Ricky Marshall]

Dude, absolutely. Get a hold of Cole Cushman and he'll get you set up.

[Zach Denini]

Hey, Rick, we got to take a second. We got to thank Outlaw Engineering and Preston family for supporting trap shooting and supporting Trap Talk podcast. They've been here for us. They're great people, you know. You know them real well, Rick.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, I've known Randy since 1988. R2 and the family, they're great supporter of the show. Coop just won the autumn grand handicap championship with a 97.

[Zach Denini]

I know.

[Pete]

I Was there.

[Zach Denini]

I got to interview, interview him.

[John]

It was great.

[Zach Denini]

I was so proud of him. He's doing a great job. Hashtag, where's Coop? He's somewhere with that big buckle. He's having fun. So you need anything engineering related, get a hold Outlaw. They'll take great care of you. Great folks.

[Ricky Marshall]

Thanks for all the support. Outlaw.

[Zach Denini]

You know, Rick, I was at the Autumn grand and the Nevada State shoot and I was just really impressed with how I could see where my squad was when I was up. Just the technology, the ability to be able to see what options I've played if the event's paid or not. I mean, what's your experience with, with the app?

[Ricky Marshall]

Listen, SOS Clay's app, it's the best thing out there, folks. You see everything. It's great. You see your option payouts. You can see when you're up, you can see who's paid on your squad. Sometimes Zach doesn't pay on time, but it's okay.

[Zach Denini]

I get out there. But what I really think is, is for gun clubs, it's free. Call Greg, get a hold of him. He'll set you up, he'll get you running. Right. And if you pay the, the premium once a year you get free pre squatting in all the shoots. And that's the best value in trap shoot.

[Ricky Marshall]

Absolutely. SOS clays.com look, your, your gun's gonna move. Your eyes are going to move a little bit like, but not down with it.

[Keith]

It's.

[Zach Denini]

You're showing me. I transition left to right. Rick, look at the camera, make it go that way, pull the trigger and move those eyes.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's all. It's like bang. And as soon as you shoot, your eyes go. And the gun will dip and go that way. You can always see it because if the gun's up here and you come across, you block out the target.

[Chris]

Right?

[Zach Denini]

Now I'm going to say this. I shoot doubles very similarly to Ricky. I don't notice as much dip. And personally, like where I'm breaking that first target and Ricky scalded me and said, you're breaking that target a little too close to the house. But like where I break that first target holding low, it's down there so low that I don't need to dip to get over that other one. I'm just looking over and I'm going over and up. As long as you're not going up to it, you're not going to cut that backside. Now the higher you hold on, that first shot of doubles, the more dip you're going to have in between because obviously that target is going up and up and up and you're, you know, you have to break it and go from there. But, you know, I don't see as much dip as Ricky does. I mean, I mean, he's really a nice, clean kind of a. What is that, like an L or a U? I mean, what do you describe that as?

[Keith]

A J?

[Ricky Marshall]

It's just a slight down and, and kind of. It's almost like a check mark kind of.

[Zach Denini]

Yeah, it's a check and it's like a J. It's like I've seen some people do this and I want to caution against it because I think Ricky's against this too. I've seen some people that take that, we got a dip thing and they shoot that first one and they throw the gun down six inches and kind of do this deal. I mean, we're not talking about, you know, inches or feet of dip. We're talking about just enough to be able to catch that line. Right, Rick?

[Frank]

Yes.

[Ricky Marshall]

So now, yeah, since Zach's a little winded. So I'm going to give Zach a quick doubles lesson on post one because that's missing on the house doubles is he goes and he doesn't come down, he goes up and he'll do this reverse J and he's like. And he goes up and he'll short, you'll break. It's usually, it's usually your second or third pair on post one. You miss.

[Zach Denini]

That's not the one you want to

[Ricky Marshall]

miss because you're, you're in speed mode.

[Zach Denini]

You're going as you're going up more instead of over more. You're going to cut the back right hand side of that left hand target and you're going to stop the gun.

[Ricky Marshall]

You're blocking it and you stop. So, yeah, I would always, I always recommend go up and then just come down a little bit and over and then up. So if you're, if you're going this way and then up to the target, you can see the move.

[Keith]

Now you're talking about that's a long time ago in the 60s and stuff. We just been the barrel and if it didn't shoot high enough, you'd bend it some more and if you went too far, you'd bend it back. And I can remember going with Bonillas over to Italy when they were going to come out with the MX10 with the teeter totter rib. I've been shooting my K80 some. And he asked me, he said, what is the big advantage or the deal? And I said, because I have just physically made it shoot 4 inches higher from the center of point of impact. Go to shoot win, lose or draw. Make it shoot 4 inches higher. I've also went the next day, lowered it 4 inches lower than what I would normally shoot it because I wanted to see if that was really the sweet spot where it was and it's there. And four inches is a lot of difference, especially in handicap. And it goes back to Dan Arleigh. He told me that day we was talking about when I was 13, he said, set a gun up to shoot handicap and then learn to shoot it at singles. Because I mean, singles didn't pay nothing. So, I mean, I had a guy standing, he bought my check back. I got a dollar for 199 and he.

[Ricky Marshall]

He gave me five dollars for that check.

[Keith]

But I'll never forget that. But it's the truth. I mean, it's ash.

[Owen]

You could.

[Keith]

Ricky's a good a shot that y' all got going now, for example, isn't it? How much consistency is there between seeing a really good shot, the way you shoot singles and the way he shoots handicap? There was times when I shot really good singles, but my handicap really wouldn't be that good. And if I got to shooting handicap, there's a lot of times I would try to hit that timing shooting singles. So I would have it to go shoot handicap because I know which one paid my trip to the shoot and stuff insects around me and depends on which way you want to go when

[Ricky Marshall]

you drive through the target. Meaning you want to. You want to. Okay. Prime example shooting today. Doing a lesson. Zach had a lesson too. I had a lesson. I told the. The one young gentleman, I said, you need to drive through that target. Shooting singles.

[Joe]

Yeah.

[Ricky Marshall]

People have a tendency to pull up to a target and try to shoot at it. And okay, pop. Driving through is boom. And the follow through. Keep that gun moving, you're driving through you. You're so the way I shoot, I'm matching the speed of the target with my barrel speed. Shooting and driving through. Now, as what Bob's referring to with the second shot of doubles, you always want to shoot that first target fast. Reckless, but with control is how my coaching mentor used to say it. Frank, copy. And then you shift your eyes to the second target. The gun falls, you drive through that second one. So you're always moving. You're that follow through on the second one. So drive through. Not. Not looking to Pick a point and shoot, you know, and that's where you. If you're driving through, you got the gun moving.

[Frank]

So.

[Ricky Marshall]

And I always say, look at the front edge of the target. So if you're looking at the front edge and you got that gun moving, you got a way better chance if you so happen to not drive to break that target.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Joe]

Okay.

[Zach Denini]

So it has a lot to do with keeping the gun moving and follow through. I think that's one of the. Okay, that's one of the key things.

[Dave]

Okay.

[Keith]

So.

[Zach Denini]

So I think the easiest way to think of it is this. If we remove the human component to our game and we just took a gun at 12 gauge and we were able to laser it to the front edge of a target, and that gun could match the speed of the target. And, you know, the target's going 42 miles an hour, the gun's going 42 miles an hour, and the gun stays on that leading edge of the bird the whole time as it fires. And the speed of the gun doesn't change. You're going to smoke ball the target 100 times out of 100 times. It's impossible not to. So if you're in. In the game of trap, if your gun is on the front of that target and you're maintaining, it's gonna break.

[Dave]

Now.

[Zach Denini]

Now, that has to do with gun speed. So if someone in a lesson says to me, well, Zach, I get to the front and that doesn't break, well, they're going to the target with a 22 mile an hour gun now. And some people, they're like, well, if I get to the front of the target, I shoot way in front. Well, they're swinging through at 70 miles an hour, so they're having to shoot the back of the target because their swing is too fast. Right. So if you're. Ricky talks about maintaining gun speed, matching gun speed all the time. He does it instinctively and naturally, and he's not even thinking about it. But most people do not. Most people are coming to a target with more speed than the target or less speed than the student of Ricky Marshall says. During one of our previous Q and A sessions, the pre shot routine was discussed by znr. That's you guys. You're znr. Ricky mentioned his trigger control as being one of his strengths. My question is, what practice routine would you guys recommend to develop stronger trigger control? Don't pull the trigger until it's time. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Ricky Marshall]

Honestly, trigger control is within yourself. Not everybody can do it. You where it comes. Honestly, your eyeballs seeing that target. Oh, there it is. And being aware of your gun, everything, and, oh, I'm not on it now. I'm on it. Go. And it. All that information goes, shoot. I mean, it's faster than the speed of light.

[Dave]

So.

[Ricky Marshall]

To be honest, there's no one taught me trigger control. It was just where I developed. It was real and, you know, singles and doubles, Singles or singles and handicap. I'm kind of, you know, I'm good. Sometimes I'm not, But doubles is where it really is, especially on that second shot.

[Zach Denini]

It's everything. And. And. And I could say I've watched most of the great shooters in the country shoot. Ricky's probably got the most phenomenal trigger control I've ever seen, because he. He can take a target, break it, then that other target's going down in the dirt, and he'll. He'll go hunting out. The only other person that I seen that had trigger control that really impressed me, like, that level was Leo. And Leo could break the first target, and that second target could bounce. He could flinch on it. He could make a move, go down, and, like, literally hit targets two or three feet off the dirt. And I'm like, man, that guy. There's just something there. And honestly, I don't think you can train that. You either have that or you don't have that. But for me, I was someone that worked on building trigger control because I found it very important in the game. So one of the drills I did early on was I just go in my garage, and I'd take, like, duct tape or something like that, and I'd go to the back wall, and I just put dots, like, on the wall. Like one on the left, one on the right, one in the middle. Kind of like a, you know, a poor, poor Italian, you know. What's that chart?

[Pete]

The

[Zach Denini]

Terry Jordan wall chart, Right? Like, I never could afford one of those. So I just did the duct tape Zach Denini version, you know, And. And I would mount the gun, and then I'd have my dad come out, and I'd say, hey, tell me if it's left. Tell me if it's right. Tell me if it's straight, whatever. And I just go. And, you know, okay, that one, that one, that one. And. And. And then when I'd go to the range, I would intentionally set really, really, really, really high targets or set a target on wobble so that, you know, if I'm on the house and they're higher than humanly imaginable that you would ever shoot In a tournament. Well, what do you got to do? You got to go all the way up to shoot it. All right, folks, we got to talk about Johnson's furniture appliance and mattress. Jason Johnson, he's a great guy. I just seen him in the shoot off the other day. He's helping shooters out with their mattresses all across the country. Tell them about it, Rick.

[Ricky Marshall]

Johnson's furniture appliances a mattress in Wichita Falls, Texas. They will do a white glove service on tempur pedic mattresses right to your door or to your gun club. It don't matter. It'll help you out.

[Zach Denini]

See, I need it because when those RVs, they come with them little flimsy little mattresses, my neck's all hurt. I need something good to sleep on. We gotta feel good, we gotta shoot good. So give them a try, folks, if you're looking for the best RV bed in the industry.

[Ricky Marshall]

Yep, that's right. You gotta get a good mattress if you you want to shoot. Well, we appreciate everything you do for us, Jason.

[Zach Denini]

Hey, folks, we got to talk about 12 gauge leather works out of St. George, Utah. I just got my package in the mail. I got a brand new trap talk pouch with a holder and shells. I got all kinds of stuff. What kind of stuff you got, Ricky?

[Ricky Marshall]

I got the same. Got the initials on there. Nice four box holder. But the best thing is the buckle holder, folks. That is cool. Got a stamp of with initials. It's awesome.

[Zach Denini]

I love that buckle holder. We can. I'm gonna hang that right behind me when we do podcasts. That's a great gift for Christmas. I mean, think about everybody hanging their buckles up. And you know these guys pretty well, right, Rick?

[Ricky Marshall]

Yeah, I actually did lessons at Livermore with them here at the beginning of the year with Jared and his son Carson. There's a nice little pick of us there. And as you can see, it was a little cold in California, but great folks. They support trap shooting, they support trap talk help.

[Zach Denini]

If you need some leather stuff, give them a try and we'll see him at a shoot near you soon. You know, Rick, when you're riding around, your air conditioning and your nice can am and I'm walking, I'm thinking to myself, where do I get one of these things?

[Ricky Marshall]

At Big Red Motorsports, that's where you get one. George or Jason Lee, they'll take care of you, Zach.

[Zach Denini]

I mean, I need one. I'm tired of riding on the back of that cooler. I want to sit inside that cab and roll around in style. I mean, My face is on the back, but help me out.

[Ricky Marshall]

Listen, I'm gonna move your face to the bumper is where it's going to get moved for the new one, okay? All you need is a little quiche and we can take care of you. But listen, Big RedMotorsports.com thanks Jason and George Lee and Big Red Motorsports for all the support. They'll take care of you folks. And it's free delivery. Hey Zach, have you been out to

[Zach Denini]

73 Pointers Ranch lately? You know I have. Rick and Carla Burke have been great. I normally hunt pheasants and chucker down there, but now they got a brand new sport sporting clays facility and it is top notch. I shot it the other day, absolutely loved it. And if you guys haven't, you need to go give it a check out.

[Ricky Marshall]

Well, I'll have to come out and do a little hunting and we'll shoot

[Zach Denini]

some sporty clays then 45 minutes from St. Louis Airport. Come see it if you haven't. Guys, check them out. I just love the way they're covering all the shoots across the country, the content, the pictures, what they're doing online, what they're doing on Facebook, Instagram. What do you think?

[Mitchell]

Yeah.

[Ricky Marshall]

Traption usa, it's a great magazine. They are the official magazine of our podcast and we are the official podcast of Traption usa. So we really appreciate it.

[Zach Denini]

That's really cool. And what they got is a deal right now. If you put Trap Talk P in for the print version and Trap Talk D for the digital version, it's 19.99 for the print and $9.99 for the digital for one year. You're not going to find a better deal. So subscribe today. You won't regret it.

[Owen]

Absolutely.

[Ricky Marshall]

Thank you for all the support.

[Zach Denini]

Rayleigh. I, I do want to get a little technical. We've talked a little bit about your stories and your captains and your goals. But you know, I know we, you know, especially, you know, everyone, but especially the female listeners want to know kind of how you do what you do. So you know, with your hold points and with your, your style, are you very similar to like me and Rick style where you're on the house and driving everything out. Are you up above the house waiting on the target or if you could explain, you know, what are you doing in singles and doubles and handicap that produced this level of success?

[Ivy]

So the biggest thing that dad and I have noticed with all of the best shooters is it's the same every time now with Ricky, who can Be very social on the line, but you've still got routines that are very meticulous. And then you look at Dagon where there's no messing around at all. But that is, every time it's the same. So that's been probably one of the biggest things. I'm like, you guys, I'm on the house, but I'm also one eye. So. And I've noticed that with a lot of female shooters, especially being one eye. And so then I've got to be on the house because of that. And then the other thing is I do. But I do pull up my whole point and doubles a little bit about halfway between the house and where I want to shoot that first target.

[Zach Denini]

Okay.

[Ivy]

So, yeah, I guess it's pretty. I feel like it's pretty generic, but I think that routine.

[Zach Denini]

So it's not nothing crazy that you're doing, but you're doing it the same every single time. And you're really focusing on consistency.

[Ivy]

That's probably been the biggest contributor from taking me from like a 95, 96 average in singles to those 98 averages.

[Ricky Marshall]

So that's awesome. I'm glad you said that and mentioned that about the consistency, because I stress that in all my clinics. I'm gonna say I think it's been about 14 years, because Frank's been gone about 12 years and it's been about

[Pete]

two years, I think, since then.

[Mitchell]

Yeah.

[Ricky Marshall]

So he shot a really a long time.

[Zach Denini]

So right when you picked it up, it was just instant, instant transition.

[Mitchell]

Well, it was really easy on the singles.

[Ricky Marshall]

I had to work with it a

[Mitchell]

little bit in the handicap and the doubles. I shot a release pull for a while, until one day at a shoot off, I just couldn't do it no more. I broke 10 out of 20, but I just never did fire the second. I just couldn't do it.

[Zach Denini]

And you said, it's time to change.

[Mitchell]

I went over, talked to Ray Stafford, and I said, ray, I'm having trouble with the release pull. And he said, I told you that when you started. So he said, here's what you need to do. Take a case of shells, go to the practice, practice trap or the shooting board or somewhere where you can shoot and shoot that whole case in the ground. Set, boom, set, boom. Set, boom. Set, boom. Shoot the whole 250. But you said, you'll never be able to shoot a pull trigger ever again. And he's right.

[Zach Denini]

Once you do it, it's over.

[Mitchell]

Once you do it, your mind is froze to that. And now it's just second nature to.

[Zach Denini]

Yeah, Sam.