Trap Talk 171: Your Trapshooting Questions Answered

Summary

Trap Talk From The Back Fence
Episode 171: Your Trapshooting Questions Answered
April 10, 2026
Hosts: Zach Nannini & Rick Marshall Jr.
Special Guest: John Cadle

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Episode Overview

In this lively listener Q&A episode, Zach, Rick, and John field a wide range of trapshooting questions submitted via Facebook and email. The trio draws on decades of shooting, coaching, and equipment experience to tackle technical, mental, and practical aspects of trapshooting, sharing expert insights and plenty of storytelling in true Trap Talk fashion.

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Highlights & Key Discussion Points

1. Upcoming Shoots and News from the Cardinal Center

Timestamps: 00:29–05:01

• Major Events: Buckeye Open (May 27-June 1), Ohio State Shoot (June 22-28), Cardinal Classic (Aug 11-16). Special giveaways—guns, gold, silver, junior purses.
• Facility Features: Ample camping, resort-like amenities, swimming pool, trails.
• Tech Update: Cardinal Center now using SOS Clays app for real-time squad and payout tracking.
• Memorable Quote:
  • “If you haven’t gone to Ohio, you need to seriously reconsider your lives. Go to the Cardinal Classic—shoot targets at the greatest place in Ohio and win silver and gold...” —Zach Nini (03:32)
• Notable achievements: Rick was the first to break 100 in handicap from the 27 at Ohio; ties with Leo Harrison for most “hundreds” broke there (04:36).

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2. Listener Q&A

A. Mid Rib Sporting Gun vs. High Rib Gun

Timestamps: 06:32–08:26

• Preference is Key: Both Zach and Rick stress gun choice comes down to personal feel and visibility. Don’t be pressured by others’ opinions.
  • “Shoot what you like. Don’t let anybody tell you that. Oh, you can’t shoot that gun. That won’t work. Maybe didn’t work for them, but it could work for you.” —Rick (08:09)

B. Coaching Youth Shooters & Breaking Plateaus

Timestamps: 08:43–15:01

• Maintain Fun & Focus: Key for coaching juniors—keep it fun, focus on “the now,” and don’t obsess on score.
• Gun Fit & Growth: Frequent fit checks are crucial, especially during growth spurts (14:00).
• Mental Aspects: For kids plateauing at 23-24, focus on confidence and mental game.
  • “If you can get this right, you’re going to break more—as long as the gun fit...” —Rick (12:05)
• Anecdote: Adjusting Zach’s stock mid-tournament led to breakthrough (13:30).

C. Ammo Choice for Handicap: 7.5 vs. 8 Shot

Timestamps: 15:02–16:19

• Consensus: 7.5s from 27-yard line all day.
• “I’m a seven and a half man—all day. We love it.” —Zach (16:00)

D. 27-Yard Handicap Advice for AAA Shooters

Timestamps: 16:19–23:19

• Set Gun for Handicap: Many shoot handicap with guns set up for singles; Rick recommends opposite.
• Mindset is Key: Handicap requires a more aggressive, reflex-driven approach than singles.
  • “Singles is deliberate...Handicap is erratic. You’re on the edge...” —Rick (17:57)
• Personal Progress: Zach shares his journey increasing his 27-yard average by pressing “the edge” (20:39).
• Transition Challenges:
  • “There’s only a few guys in the world that can take all three legs [singles, doubles, handicap] and keep them on all the time...” —Zach (21:36)

E. Staying Focused in Non-HOA Events

Timestamps: 29:27–35:07

• Universal Effort: Give 100% at every event, regardless of stakes.
  • “If you’re gonna shoot, give your effort. Period. That’s it.” —Zach (35:07)
• Don’t save focus for big shoots—treat all events the same.

F. Adjusting Gun Fit for Growing Shooters

Timestamps: 35:31–38:45

• Watch Out for Stretching: Don’t chase extra length; prioritize comfort and consistent head position.
• Recommended Gear: Adjustable combs and length-of-pull mechanisms help.
  • “The biggest thing that you can do wrong is get way, way, way too long...” —Zach (37:44)

G. Travel & Club Shoutouts

Timestamps: 39:04–40:51 & 80:04–81:51

• Favorite Small Clubs: Rick mentions Middletown, OH and his home club; Zach shouts out Martinez, Gateway (MO), Metcalf (CA).
  • “Every gun club in the country is my favorite club. Why? Because I get to do what I love every day...” —Rick (80:04)

H. Mental Consistency & Focus Management

Timestamps: 48:21–54:03

• Three-Second Focus Rule: Focus hard only for the shot, then relax in between.
  • “Three seconds. Shoot and go, baby. That’s all you need.” —Rick (51:03)
• The best shooters rapidly switch between deep focus and relaxation.

I. Practicing from Longer Yardages

Timestamps: 88:13–91:27

• Practice Harder Than You Play: Shooting from the 27 even if you’re a 22-yarder builds confidence.
  • “If you practice harder than you play, then you’re gonna do fine...” —Zach (89:03)
• Don’t be afraid to challenge yourself—good trap shooters are just plain good shotgun shooters.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If you haven’t gone to Ohio, you need to seriously reconsider your lives.” —Zach (03:32)
• “Shoot what you like. Don’t let anybody tell you that.” —Rick (08:09)
• “Get the gun on my face and keep my head locked in that position.” —Zach (38:39)
• “Three seconds. Shoot and go, baby. That’s all you need.” —Rick (51:03)
• “Practice harder than you play.” —Zach (89:03)

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Technical/Equipment Segments

Gun Setup, Choke, Ammo Advice
Timestamps: Throughout Q&A

• Doubles Choke: Both recommend 20/30 thousandths (Mod/IMod), no need for Full.
• Handicap Gun Setup: Aim to set up gun for the 27; be willing to tweak as you move back.
• Ammo: Singles—stay around 1145-1165 fps, 1⅛ oz #8; Handicap—7½s, heavier loads from 24+/27.
  • “The faster you push a given load, the more opportunity you have for flyers and holes...” —Zach (70:58)

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Trap Club & Product Shoutouts

• Cardinal Center (OH): Praised for hospitality, amenities, big prize purses, top-tier targets.
• SOS Clays App: Great tech for managing shooters, squads, and payouts (03:04, 27:54).
• Trapshooting USA Magazine: Special deal offered for listeners—print/digital subscription (75:08).
• Merchandise: Trap Talk swag available at shop.traptalkpodcast.com (05:35).

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Coaching/Instructional Insights

• Youth Coaching: Focus on steady fun, self-trust, and individual gun fit due to constant growth (09:19, 14:00).
• Mental Game: Trust your instinct, believe in yourself, don’t fixate on average, embrace adaptability.
  • “If you don’t believe in yourself, your best bet is to go sit in the car and not shoot.” —Rick (12:05)
• Handling Disruptions: Best shooters react calmly to interruptions, keep control over their response.

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Expert Tips in Brief

• Set your gun up for the most challenging event (usually 27-yard handicap), then adapt for others.
• Rapid focus/relaxation cycles prevent mental fatigue over long events (“three-second rule”).
• Challenge yourself—if you can break them at the 27, closer yardages will feel easier.
• Prioritize dense, well-patterned loads over raw speed, especially for singles.
• Gun fit is foundational—prioritize it as a youth or if you’re struggling.
• Don’t worry about background—“Look at the damn target, boy!” —Zach (77:03)
• Budgeting: Treat trapshooting as entertainment/travel—prepare to “lose every dollar you spend” unless you get lucky with wins.

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Closing

A high-energy, information-rich episode peppered with humor and honest advice. Zach, Rick, and John keep it real with both technical know-how and coaching wisdom, making this a must-listen (or read!) for anyone looking to up their trapshooting game, troubleshoot issues, or just enjoy engaging stories from the sport’s top minds.

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Transcript

[Zach Nini]

Welcome to season four of Trap Talk,

[Rick Marshall Jr]

brought to you by Craig off the choice of Champions.

[Zach Nini]

Hey folks, before we get into this episode, I got to give a huge shout out to the Cardinal Center. They're doing a fabulous job and they've got some fantastic shoots coming up with some great prizes. John, tell the folks what they got coming up.

[John Cadle]

Well, they've got their three big shoots, so they've got the Buckeye Open, they've got the Ohio State shoot, and they've got the Cardinal Classic. The Buckeye is May 27 through June 1. The Cardinal Classic is actually after the grand, so that's August 11th through the 16th. And the Ohio State shoot this year is June 22nd through June 28th. Also gonna have the Backfin Shootout during the Ohio State shoot also. So, yeah, they're really kicking it up this year, Rick. They're doing a big giveaway, twenty thousand

[Rick Marshall Jr]

dollar Lewis at the Cardinal Classic. So you guys don't want to miss that. So I might have to pencil that back in on the schedule. If they're giving away a bunch of gold and silver for that. We got the, the silver and the gold, everything given away at the Ohio State shoot with the Back Vent Shootout. There's another event too going on in Ohio State Shoot. So folks, you don't want to miss the Cardinals three big shoots. Put them all on your calendar.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, I think in the, the Buckeye Open they've added a bunch of stuff too. So they're giving away. I'm just kind of looking at the list here. 78 flats of ammo they're going to give away. They're, they're giving away L M lenses. They're doing a Browning CSX gun giveaway at the Buckeye also. And then, yeah, like you were saying, Rick, the Cardinal Classic, they've just started adding stuff. They've got the $20,000 in gold and silver for the HOA. Yeah, they're doing some added stuff, I heard for the juniors. You know, they're doing like a $3,000 purse for some juniors. Juniors, I think. Yeah, yeah, so they're doing that too. And then the Ohio State shoot this year, they're kicking it up also. So the Cardinal center and the Ohio State shoot together. I think this is the year to make sure you make it out to Ohio.

[Zach Nini]

Well, Ohio State's got 160 ounces of added silver in that combined handicap event. I mean that's a huge deal. Champion runner up and then yardage groups are all going to get some silver. And I mean that is completely Free to enter. All you got to do is shoot all the handicaps in the overall. I mean it's a no brainer. Just show up and shoot the handicaps and get in on 160 ounces of silver. Where the heck can you do that? Other than like Nevada?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And.

[Zach Nini]

And double plug.

[John Cadle]

A double shameless.

[Zach Nini]

Double shameless. That's like their version of the twofer but a little different. We just stick together.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Different. Yeah.

[John Cadle]

Oh, and here. Here's breaking news for everybody. The Cardinal center has also switched over to SOS clays.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yep.

[John Cadle]

So now the app is going to work. You can see how much you're winning. You can check your squads, all that good stuff. So at the Cardinal center now, three fur.

[Zach Nini]

Three fur.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Three.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

Oh, and all the gold and silver came from Ron Prescott at Midsafe Precious Metals. Is that a forer.

[Zach Nini]

Plugs on Plugs on plugs.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

We love plugs.

[John Cadle]

I. I think the main story here guys is this is a year to. If you haven't gone to Ohio, it should definitely already been on your bucket list.

[Zach Nini]

You're not going to Ohio. Haven't gone to Ohio. You need to seriously reconsider your lives. Like get it together, folks. Go to the Cardinal Classic. Shoot targets at the greatest place in Ohio to shoot targets and win silver and gold with the likeness of the greats like Joey Chigo, Slow Joe Baby. It's. It's a real deal. Come on out and see us.

[John Cadle]

That's very true. And it's a beautiful facility. I mean it. It is one of those kind of marquee facilities for trap shooting. So I would definitely. Yeah. Say go there and trap talk's gonna be there.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right. We'll have merge. We'll have everything.

[John Cadle]

Yeah.

[Zach Nini]

My. My little shout out to. It is what I love best about it is the camping because they've got so many camping spots there that everyone can stay on the grounds with their trailer and they've got a swimming pool. They've got like cool little trails and stuff you could walk on. I mean it's just a beautiful facility and it makes you feel like you're at a resort at a gun club and that's like. That doesn't happen, guys. Like it's. It's very, very beautiful.

[John Cadle]

Rick, you've had some, some pretty big stuff happen at Ohio. I. I'm trying to remember back. Weren't you the first Ohio.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I was the first to break 100 and handicap from the 27 there. And, and I sit right now with the tied with Mr. Leo Harrison for the most hundreds broke there with four. We each broke four so far. That's awesome.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, that's very. That's really cool.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. If you, if you haven't been there, put it on the list. All three shoots, especially the Ohio State shoot and the Cardinal classic.

[Zach Nini]

Those two are for sure.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. And this year they are going above and beyond. So we love, we love to see states kicking it up. We love to see gun club kicking it up and giving back to the shooters. I think there's a lot of value in the shooters heading out to Ohio. And again, these guys are going to be there. So I mean, what other reason?

[Zach Nini]

And. And they got the backfin shootout fifer. Right.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

We're rolling.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, it's all plugged up today and we're having a good time. So that. With that being said, John, let's get to the show. Hey, folks, if you're wondering where you can get your merch, head on down to shop.taptalkpodcast.com yes, folks, you can get

[Rick Marshall Jr]

hats, T shirts, sweatshirts. They even have a ladies tank, shooter's towels. We might have some new stuff coming out for the 2026 year. Who knows?

[Zach Nini]

We got all the swag. Head on down to the website. Thank you so much for being Trap Talk supportive.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Thanks, everyone.

[John Cadle]

All right, everybody, welcome back to another edition of the listener question extravaganza here on the Trap Talk podcast. I've got Ricky Marshall Jr here, we've got Zach Nini here, and most importantly, we've got all of your question. So we've got the best fans in the world. I put a post up today on Facebook saying, hey, we're going to jump in the studio. We're going to do an episode here for listener questions. We had some come in on the email and a bunch of people commented on Facebook. So let's just jump right into it. We'll just go down the list here and we'll start on Facebook. Are you guys ready?

[Zach Nini]

I'm ready.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right.

[John Cadle]

The guys are ready. The fans are ready. Here we go. All right. Hayden Boyer comes into us on Facebook and says, what is your guys opinion on using a mid rib sporting gun over a high rib gun? I have both and both have straight combs. I love the show. Thanks.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

So he's got parallel combs, meaning straight combs, I'm assuming.

[John Cadle]

Okay.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

It's all preference, honestly. I mean, I'm sure Zach and I are going to agree on this 100% that.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, it's just preference. I Mean, if you want to be closer to the barrel and have more reference to the target than a flatter rip gun, if you want to have more visibility but less reference point, then you get to a higher rib gun. I mean, we've both shot guns that are flat rib all the way to high rib. And the higher the rib, more visibility but the less feel you have off the tip of the barrel. And then you go grab a old 1100, well, you can use the barrel and point stuff out. So, I mean, it comes down to preference completely.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. It's all like Zach just said, it's, it's, you know, I've shot an unsingle or an uncingle. Yeah. Since 1989, but 1988 I shot an MX3 top single and, and I still play around. I've got all sorts of different barrels and stuff and, and mess with stuff. But yeah, it's all preference. So really don't get, don't get caught up on. Someone says, oh, you have to shoot this because it's just like lens colors on shooting glasses.

[Zach Nini]

What do you like?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Everybody's eyes are different.

[Zach Nini]

What do you like? Shoot that. Try it. If you break more targets with the sporting gun. That's right. Then it's a trap gun now. Yeah, it just says they're all trap guns.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What started the clay target sports trap shooting. So they're all trap guns in my mind, but yeah. No, in all, in all seriousness, shoot what you like. Don't let anybody tell you that. Oh, you can't shoot that gun. That won't work. Maybe didn't work for them, but it could work for you.

[Zach Nini]

So.

[John Cadle]

Or you need this. Or you have to have this or you have to shoot this way. You have to hold here. If you're breaking. If you're breaking birds. It works. Exactly. So it's all on the score, boys. All right. All right. Thank you, Hayden, for that. We're doing rapid fire today, folks. We've got a lot of questions to get through.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right.

[John Cadle]

Guys are extremely busy obviously with the shooting season coming up, so we're going to try to get this in. All right, moving on. Scott Shelton also comes to us on Facebook, guys. He's saying as a junior senior high school coach, I'm wondering what is the most common reason they see student athletes miss the clay and how do you spot it? And when a student athlete plateaus in that 20 to 24 out of 25 range, what can coaches do to push them to. Into that 24, 25 range? Love the podcast and sharing of the techniques. Wonderful work. All right, so we got a coach here, Rick, a fellow coach here, and he's saying, you know, how do we get him to the next level?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Kind of sounds like, well, take a clinic. Take one of my coaches clinics I just got them doing in Wisconsin. There's a lot of different things. It's small stuff and, and honestly there, there's a lot of different things to look for and that's something that I teach in my coaches clinic is all the different things to look for. So I mean, we don't have enough time here on the podcast to go over everything. But the, the main thing with the kids is, is keep them, you know, entertained, keep their, their minds off of the total score. You know, let him shoot, have fun, make it fun. Don't, don't make it. You know, you gotta win. You gotta win. You know, it's, it's tough on these kids nowadays where, you know, I've seen some coaches say, either you win or you're off the first team type of deal. You know what, Shoot and have fun. I mean, and your scores will grow from there, you know, and as you shooters, as we all know, their attention span is, you know, about as long as the thickness of a piece of paper. So, you know, in all seriousness, it's, it's, it really is. So, you know, keep them, you know, locked in on, you know, the topic at hand, and that is breaking this target, not the one, the next target, not the one before. You can't worry about anything but the now.

[Zach Nini]

So that's. Yeah, I think Rick's 100% right. You got to have, you got to have fun and you got to stay focused. I think the other things that, you know, he sees commonly a lot and I see commonly a lot are, you know, starting with the gun fit, right? Like that's a lot. A lot of misses happen there. And they know they're out shooting on teams and I mean, they've been shooting all year long and the guns wrong all year long. So that's like really big and a lot of it is moving before they identify the bird. I mean, making an assumpt, assumptive move to something before you really recognize it. I mean, that's, that's everything. And then, and then as far as the mental game, the 24s or the 25s, if you've got somebody that's already breaking 23s and 24s, I would urge them to, to really do some mental work, whether it's writing down Their goals or kind of breathing techniques, whatever it is that they could do to help control. Because it's not their ability that's causing them to miss. It's the, oh crap, we're almost to a 25. Like if they're breaking 23s and 24s, it's more in between the ears at that point most of the time than it is, you know, physically doing something wrong. And so, you know, what's their buy in? Do they believe in themselves? You know, are they, are they talking about themselves confidently? I think a self positive image is very important in this game. You have to well, you, you, you

[Rick Marshall Jr]

like you like Zach just said folks, you got to believe in your trust yourself. Everybody that's taking classes for me will tell you that they've heard me say trust yourself. Because trust me, your first instinct's always the right one. Y. You know, so you've got to believe in yourself. When you walk out on that line to shoot a competition, you got to believe in yourself. If you don't believe in yourself, your best bet is to go sit in the car and, and not shoot. You know, which I don't recommend that. So it is, it's, you know, to get from that jump of the. And honestly someone that's averaging 24 is going to be breaking a lot of 25s. So it's that I usually say it's that what 20 to 22 target range because the 23 is the same way person that's average of 23 is going to be breaking 25. But yeah, you do have to get this right, that mind right. And Zach knows this. I mean listen, you're, you know, we're fortunate that we do get a shoot at a higher level. But that's because the stuff, the time we've put into it and I always say that you get out of it what you put into it, you know, so just as, as a coach for these kids, the biggest thing I would say is don't sell yourself short and trust yourself. If you can get this right, you're going to break more as long as the gun fit and like. And Zach hit it right on the head there with, you know, I see it day in and day out. I mean and listen, I've shot, Zach can tell you this, I've shot with a gun that didn't fit and I broke some targets. But then I'm like ah. And Zach's did the same thing a couple years ago. We were in, in Tucson. He's trying this, trying that. What do we do we cut the bottom of the stock off and did some weird with his gun and. And. And all of a sudden, boom, it started fitting him better and he started breaking some more targets. So even the top shooters running, it happens.

[Zach Nini]

So it happens. It's an adjustment, and I think it's. It's such a critical thing when you're young because that growth spurt is happening in lifetime. I mean, they're changing dimensions season to season. Right. So, I mean, month to month, I

[John Cadle]

mean, you have that shoot to end of shoot, you know, they're just.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, well, no, that is true, John.

[Zach Nini]

I.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Listen, I've seen it where I've had some. Some students and their kids that they're like, yeah, you know, I got done shooting the handicap. This is Sunday, and, God, I wasn't seeing down the barrel the same way I was, you know, and sure enough, they got home and they called me. They were like, I gained six pounds while I was there, and they're running around. They ain't like Zach and I hanging out at the food trucks, you know, so.

[John Cadle]

Right. They're.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

They're moving. They're moving around them calories, but they're growing.

[John Cadle]

So.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, a lot of stuff to keep on, you know, with the youth shooters. There's a lot of things to keep your eye on.

[Zach Nini]

For sure. 100%.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yep.

[John Cadle]

Well, hey, Scott, thank you for that question. Good luck with the team. Keep us in the loop on how it's going and, yeah, just keep being there for them, keep supporting them. All right, we're moving on rapid fire. We're keeping it going here. Marlon Stutzman comes in. They're a top fan on our Facebook channel, so thank you, Marlon, for that. We a big dog. Just curious, do you prefer seven and a half or eights when you shoot handicap? All right, this is. This is going to be pretty cut and dry here, guys. I think we've talked about this one, but.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, yeah, it's gonna be.

[John Cadle]

Honestly, he says prefer. He says prefer, so.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, yeah, you know, I prefer the ones that break the. The targets, but, you know, no, seven halves from 27 all day long. That's what I'm gonna say.

[Zach Nini]

Now you move up closer.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You know, he didn't clarify handicap yardage, but I'm gonna say the 20 to about the 22. Three eights work fine, but yeah, seven and a half is what I'm going with all day long.

[Zach Nini]

I'm a seven and a half man. All day. We love it.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yep, yep.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, I got some when we were in Tucson here for the spring. I. I got a couple flats of the 1258s from Dave to use, but I used them on my second shot of doubles and it was. It was pretty nice to have that on this. On the second shot of doubles.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, that'll do it.

[John Cadle]

All right, Marlon, you heard it here first. Ricky and Zach, seven and a halfs all the way from the fence. All right, moving on. Guys, we're still on the handicap subject here. Mason Mallon comes in and says 27 yard handicap. Advice. What advice would you share for someone who holds a triple A average in singles and doubles but struggles to keep a 90% average at the 27 yard line? Asking for a friend. No, just kidding. He didn't put that part. All right, Mason, your question's coming in. All right, so guys, he's looking for more consistency at the 27. It looks.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, to get consistency, you gotta, you know, shoot practice. So here's what I'm going to tell you. It's probably what's going on there is as a shooting instructor, I see it all day long. Most people set their gun up to shoot singles, okay? And they struggle with handicap where I'm opposite. I set my gun up to shoot handicap, learn to shoot in singles, okay? And that's what I'm gonna guess is probably the issue or, or part of it. But the one thing too is in singles, okay, if they're holding a AAA singles average, I mean, that's a 98 and a half plus singles average, you know, and the doubles is. Triple a is what, 96 and a half, I think, and better in doubles. So their gun shooter, they're looking, of course, one, but two, they're probably shooting handicap targets the same way they're shooting singles targets. And I see this all day.

[Zach Nini]

Bueno.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. And it don't work. Singles is a deliberate, you know, see it, shoot it smooth. Handicap is erratic. You're on the edge, you're on that fence. We're not talking Joey Chernigo fence.

[Zach Nini]

Nobody's on that fence.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Cadle]

That's a whole nother.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. And listen, you know what?

[Zach Nini]

The.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

The kid. And I call Joey a kid because he's. He's younger than me. He's a little older than Zach, but, you know, he. Joey has some phenomenal eyes and phenomenal reflexes. And Joey lives on the edge and it doesn't bother him. There is some people I know that shoot that way, but their edge is scattered. Their. There's this up and down. So I would say is what they need to do is take and really press themselves so, you know, see it, shoot it like you're, you're like not. Oh, what they're probably doing is trying to judge it just that little bit. And what that little bit does, that 27 yard target is another 10 yards out there. Exactly. So you just use your reflexes and shoot just. That's one of those things is go shoot a practice round and see it, shoot it, fall through. That's my famous saying. You know, I'll. I'll go down and say that that's all you need to do in shooting. You got to see it, to break it, you got to shoot it, and you got to follow through.

[Zach Nini]

So, yeah, everything rick said was 100% spot on. I think, you know, I feel like that statement is related to me. In the past, I shot great singles and doubles. And what I experienced, this is just my own personal experience is I was very deliberate and methodical and my singles, I mean, I would say that was my best game or my doubles because I was seeing the perfect pitchers and I was having trigger control on every single shot. But I go to the handicap and then I try to have that same type of accuracy and that same type of trigger control and all that other stuff. And I was stuck that, you know, 91, 92 average. And in the last year specifically, I went back and I really retooled the game and I said, okay, well, I need to work on this and I need to work on pressing that edge like Ricky's saying, because it wasn't working and it just consistently wasn't working. And I picked up, you know, I think almost three targets on average this year from the 27, just from seeing the bird and attacking the bird and not, not pointing it out and being smooth and methodical, but being ready and being still and really trying to get that bird killed quickly. That has been everything for me.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You're. You're up about two and a two and a half, 2.56. That's actually two point. Sorry, 2.46. So two and a half targets on average right now. Zach's up. Zach was averaging. You know, you did have a 94 and a half average back in 2020. You only shot 2, 000 targets right now. You got a 9380. In the last few years, it's been 91.34, 9128, 9126. Which, listen, folks, a 91. I always say anything, you break at 90 and from 27, that ain't bad. But Zach is correct, because I've watched him progress, you know, is. Is, you know, standing right next to him, you know, shooting and the consistency of his scores, you know, coming up over the years. And that is because you do. You can't shoot, you know, the. The singles targets the same way you're going to shoot handicap.

[Zach Nini]

Now here's something that's going to be the next story for Mason. Once you start to really figure out the handicap, then you're going to start to forget the singles a little bit. And I just dealt with that at Florida, where. Where the first. Yeah, the first week I missed 11 targets out of 500 singles. And like, normally I would miss maybe four or five out of 500 singles in a normal weekend where that was pretty common. And so then I had to go into the next week and really, like, say, okay, I'm gonna purposefully slow myself down when I shoot singles, and then I'm gonna jack my speed back up in handicap. And that. That following week, I actually had it working. But. But, you know, you start to find one. It's like a. It's like a stool with three legs. You got singles and you got doubles and handicap. Oh, okay, where'd the singles leg go? You got singles and doubles. Okay, where's the handicap leg? There's only a few guys in the world that can take all three legs of that stool and keep them on all the time. I mean, it's not. You don't see it. You just don't.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

No, it is tough. I mean, and that's the thing. I'm just sitting here. I don't rarely look at average because the ATA doesn't pay you for average, you know, But I was looking at Zach stuff, and, yeah, he has progressed this year, and a lot of that is he's changed his mindset and he. And he's. And he's working at stuff, you know, and that's the biggest thing. I mean, you know, singles is. Is one of those that I always say. It's just target management. You know, if you miss one. Okay, well, just don't miss another one. You know where Zach is, right? I stood right there on the same squad with him and at. In Florida, and even Tyler, you know, I think Tyler missed two targets in singles all week. And. And Zach's over there, you know, change three. Tyler's looking at me like, zach, okay,

[Zach Nini]

I'm ready for handicap and doubles. I'm like, screw these singles. For the first time in my life, I understood what Joey's pain was. I'M like, yeah, man, we need some handicapping doubles, like. And then, and then. But you can still shoot them, but get back on the horse. And then that next week, I only missed one out of 500. And I was like, that was right off the bat. That was the first one I missed. The first one out. The first one of the whole shoot I missed.

[John Cadle]

That's a hard 499.

[Zach Nini]

It's a hard 499. But. But, but it was, okay, see it and then, and then look at it and have trigger control.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Where.

[Zach Nini]

The first week there was no. I didn't know. I couldn't spell trigger control. It was just, you know, I was just wham. Everything off the arm as quick as I could and it wasn't. It wasn't pretty. So that's.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You were. You were. You were letting it rip. That's. I just looked up Joey's averages right now. Joey's averaging 9607 in handicap right now.

[Zach Nini]

It's the 32, 000 Rhino roller chucks. He's just banging, buddy.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

99.36 in singles. I mean, so. Yeah, but. So, yeah, hopefully that should help you. Yeah, you know, keep us posted on. On that. If that is an issue with trying to shoot the same way. But I'm sure the person set the gun up to, you know, to shoot singles. And that's what I always tell everybody. And I've had people, you know, ask me like, well, how do you average over 99, you know, something in singles, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, when I got my Katie in 2006, I. I went out, shot singles and I was breaking a 20. I break a 25. And I was like, okay, I ain't worried about this. I walked back to handicap, I set it up. I'm smoking. I mean, literally, I run 90, 93 straight after I got it set up in a handicap and I was like, perfect. Walked up the 16 yard line. I broke a 21, I think. And my dad goes, you just broke 93 straight and you broke a 21 in singles. And I said, dad, singles don't pay the bills. But, you know, Mr. Krieg, I was like, well, we should look at maybe a singles barrel. I said, no, I'm not doing that. I want a combo gun. That's it. So then I worked at it. I just said, okay, what do I got to do? How do I. I gotta. So it is being a little more deliberate. And that's what I mean. I just looked it up. I didn't realize this, you know, I got a 99.82 singles average right now on 1100. So if that was the minimum, I just quit and keep that average. That'd be the, the record. But I, I don't care about the average. So, you know, a little, little more

[John Cadle]

shooting coming up, Rick.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Oh, we got a lot more. What's that?

[Zach Nini]

What's the minimum? 1500.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I have. No, honestly, Zach, I have no idea. I've got 1100 singles, 1100 handicap, and I got 1400 doubles. So in so far right now, but yeah, it's one of those. Listen, like, like Zach and I, we're enjoying shooting right now. It's been a lot of fun. You know, we did the recap on the Southern and the state shoot and the acuis. You know, Zach shot good at the, at the state shoot. Our whole squad shot good at the Southern. And then, you know, Tyler and his team, Lindenwood won their 19th national championship. Tyler shot good. Anna Ra shot good. You know, you know, it was. Chris Diller won the. So Lindenwood won the singles trap, the men's and women's. I mean, they wanted a lot of stuff. So it's been a good month and now we're into, you know, April and now it's just teaching time for me, so.

[John Cadle]

Teaching and getting ready for the summer. All right, boys, let's keep it rolling here.

[Zach Nini]

Rolling.

[John Cadle]

Of course we. Mason, thank you for the question. And then just so everybody knows, Tony Fertino jumped in on Mason's comment here and said, hey, Mason, better take a reduction and build that confidence back up. Probably not the advice that we would have given, but thanks for the extra comment there, Tony.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Two time grand winner, Tony.

[John Cadle]

All right, moving on here.

[Zach Nini]

You know, Rick, the only thing looks better than these hats we're wearing right now is a bunch of gold and silver from Ron Prescott at Mid State Precious Metal. Show them the goods.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Listen, all I got silver right now. I won't bring the gold out for

[Zach Nini]

Zach, but you know, I always want to get that.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Gold, gold, shotgun shells, 10oz bars. Folks, he could do anything for you. For all your shoot needs, give Ron Prescott a call. Midstate Precious metals dot com.

[Zach Nini]

He's a great guy. Support him. He supports all the shoots. He supports trap talk. If you're thinking gold or silver, you need to be thinking Ron Prescott at Midstate Precious Metals. Thank you, Ron.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right. Thanks for all the support.

[Zach Nini]

You know, Rick, I was at the Autumn grand and the Nevada State shoot and I was just really impressed with how I Could see where my squad was when I was up. Just the technology, the ability to be able to see what options I've played, if the event's paid or not. I mean, what's your experience with. With the app?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Listen, sos Clay's app, it's the best thing out there, folks. You can see everything. It's great. You see your option payouts. You can see when you're up, you can see who's paid on your squad. Sometimes Zach doesn't pay on time, but it's.

[Zach Nini]

I get out there. But what I really think is, is for gun clubs, it's free. Call Greg, get a hold of him. He'll set you up. He'll get you running. Right? And if you pay the the premium, once a year, you get free pre squatting in all the shoots. And that's the best value in trap shoot.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Absolutely. Sosclays.com.

[Zach Nini]

you know, Ricky, I know you use it on your barrels, but you even know what RGS stands for?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

No, Zach, what does it stand for?

[Zach Nini]

Really good.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, that is true. It is good stuff, folks. I use it to clean my barrels, and it does make them shine.

[Zach Nini]

Only problem is I wear white T shirts when I clean my barrels, and I get them all messy, so I got to be better at that. But it gets all the plastic, all the gunk out. Give them a try, folks. They're great.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right. Give RGS a try. We appreciate all the support. Hey, Zach, have you been out to 73 Pointers Ranch lately?

[Zach Nini]

You know I have. Rick and Carla Burke have been great. I normally hunt pheasants and chukar down there, but now they got a brand new sporting clays facility, and it is top notch. I shot it the other day, absolutely loved it. And if you guys haven't, you need to go give it a check out.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

We'll have to come out and do a little hunting and we'll shoot some sporty clays.

[Zach Nini]

Then 45 minutes from St. Louis Airport. Come see it. If you haven't. Guys, check them out.

[John Cadle]

Another top fan coming into Facebook here. Ty Patterson. And Ty Patterson says, what do you do to keep your mind in the game, even when it's a singles event or a non HOA event? Are you focusing on having fun, maintaining an average, or just shooting the best of your ability? All right, we've covered some of this, I think, in our conversations already, but Ty's kind of thinking, hey, this isn't an important event maybe. And so he's having trouble keeping his head in the game.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, what does it mean in a non HOA event?

[John Cadle]

Preliminary event.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Oh, you mean the free All America point days that Zach shoots a lot?

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, the good stuff, the fun stuff. Hey, just remember, they're not free unless you hit enough of them.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

And.

[Zach Nini]

And you gotta. You gotta hit enough.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Guys, guys, listen, I'm not aroused. I. I rouse Zach about this all the time because Zach. And we'd get to the Heartland group, where it all started was the Heartland grand years ago at Dale's. And I'm like, the overall starts Wednesday. I get there Tuesday. Zach's out there Monday, banging away.

[Zach Nini]

I'm shooting. I was shooting the pumping doubles. I said, I think he's got all American points.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Hey, your exact words to me was, wayne, no one here. I'm gonna give me some free All American points. So it just comes back to him, you know, when I. When I get, you know, bang these

[Zach Nini]

things, you know, But. But I don't think there's any difference in a. Yeah, if you think that there's a difference in the Grand American handicap versus the shoot on Saturday at the local gun club, that's where your mindset's a little off, because you need to be trying to break the target. I mean, it doesn't matter if it's this, that, or the other. And because if you get to the point where you're like, okay, I'm going to really focus hard on this event because it's really important, well, then your whole game is going to be different. Then it goes back to, like what we talked about with the handicap, where you start being careful and measuring and you start getting defensive and all of those things that you don't want to do. You want to stay on the aggressive. You want to stay on the attack. When you see that target, shoot the target and make the shot. And for those reasons, I think you need to shoot all events with the same amount of intensity and vigor. No matter what. However you feel, shoot it. Now. If you're going to say, this event does not matter and I do not care, then you probably shouldn't shoot that event. You probably should just say, yeah, I don't. I mean, this. This event suck. I'm going to go out and I'm going to shoot bad today. I don't care. It's not in the overall. Let's just blow holes in the sky. Well, then just skip it. Like, why. Why put yourself through that if you can't rise to that occasion and try to win the $25 voucher for next year's targets? That expire somewhere in between the middle of the year. You know that, that those, those are the good ones, right?

[John Cadle]

Yeah, those are the best ones. Yeah.

[Zach Nini]

The great ones.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[Zach Nini]

I like it when you win the voucher and it expires before the next shoot. That's, that's always the good ones. Yeah.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I agree with Zach on this is you have to listen no matter what event it is. I don't care if it's, you know, Monday fun day. If you're shooting, you give a hundred percent every time and give the focus every time. And that's. And, and maintaining, like you said, maintaining an average. You know what I don't like I said, I never worry about the average. I go out there and I give 100, and if I can walk off that line at the end of the event and say, I gave a hundred percent, then I got no issues.

[Zach Nini]

We go.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

But if I walk up that line and go, yeah, I gave about 80%, then I got an issue with myself not being locked in on what I'm supposed to do.

[John Cadle]

So, Yeah, I mean, what do you guys think about the, you know, you're shooting the prelims to get used to the traps, get used to where you're at, like, get into competition mode. Like, there's a lot of things that are beneficial to you of shooting those earlier events, even though they're not in the hoa. And you should use that as, you know, it's just as important because you're trying to ramp up. Right. Aren't we starting? We're trying to peak right at. Towards the end, you know, so you have to start.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You don't really. Well, not to discount that, John, about peaking, but I always say I want to give it all, every event. So I lay it out. Right. So I, I want to, I want to peek at every event, you know.

[John Cadle]

Sorry.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. My whole goal at every shoot that I go to is when the hoa. I want to win the hoa. And where that came from was when I was a kid sitting there with Frank Copy and Leo, and it was a big deal to win the hoa. If you won the hoa, you, you were the top dog.

[Zach Nini]

You hit the most targets, period.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, More targets. And I've got here in my office. I mean, I could look up and, and on top of my shelf, I got a couple HOA trophies there. You know, I've been fortunate to, to win, you know, some HOAs. And it, it's a, it's that cool feeling of, I, I, I did what I was supposed to do, you know?

[John Cadle]

Yeah.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

And if you don't, you don't like. I mean, Southern Grand. I was runner up to Joey. I got the, I got the Charnigo root trophy and you know, Joey shot lights out in handicap and we stood there. I mean, I followed the kid and I mean it was just smoke ball after smoke ball. Well, let me rephrase that. It was chipping after chipping, you know,

[Zach Nini]

but you know, he was in him good.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

He was. And, and it was a lot of fun. And you know, like we've always said, Zach and I feel the same way about this is, hey, we're shooting with stuff or our friends. If we don't win the HOA or win an event and our friend does, we're just as happy for them as we are for ourselves.

[Zach Nini]

Anybody on the squad and even people off the squad, I mean it's, it's all, it's all, it's all good. But you know, Ricky, Ricky covered this. Just if you're gonna shoot, give your effort period. That's it.

[John Cadle]

Yeah.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

100, right?

[John Cadle]

We like it, Ty. Stay in it. Stay focused, you know, right. Go in there to, to dominate, you know, you paid your money, so kick ass, get it done. All right, Ty.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. And Ty, thank you for being a top fan on the Facebook page. We really appreciate that. All right, next one. Coming up, Matt Tierney says any advice on how to keep a gun fit to a 14 year old who grows faster than a spring weed? Trying to make sure once a month I adjust his length, but just wondering if there's anything else to watch out for. We kind of talked about this before, so that's good, right? Yeah, so, yeah, I guess maybe what's, what's the high points, guys? Like what should he be checking, you know, on a more frequent basis?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Maybe honestly. Length. The pole can, can matter, but don't keep lengthen it because what happens with kids and Zach can tell you the same thing.

[Zach Nini]

You're.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

They're always going to try to stretch out and stretch out. Stretch out.

[Zach Nini]

Yep.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Be comfortable. Get the gun in and get the head forward, but not where you're not where the shoulders have to turn. If you're doing that, what's happening is they're, they're trying to get to that. I'll call it the honey hole. The. The same spot this far from the end of the comb. So I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't recommend doing that. I would make sure and reiterate to them, listen, I want you to mount this gun to be Comfortable, you know, don't over stretch. Because what happens when they do that? You, you turn. You get into it so far, then you get a goofy target, you do one of these, and as you end

[Zach Nini]

up on your heels.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, exactly.

[Zach Nini]

So he's right on. I think the biggest thing that you can do wrong is get way, way, way too long. Now, that being said, I shot way back in the day, a PERAZZI Grand America 88. And the biggest thing that helped me with that gun is it had two things that I recommend, you know, when you're young. The adjustable comb on the top. Up, down, left, right. Yeah. And then it also had. It was called. It was a Graco extender. And it would just spin. It would spin in and out and give length of pull. And I could spin it out and spin out. So over the course of a couple years, you know, it wasn't a lot, but I mean, from. From all the way extended in to all the way extended out, it had a two inch variance, so I could add two inches. So I could, you know, over six months. Okay, A half inch. Okay. Something like that.

[John Cadle]

Right?

[Zach Nini]

Like a little bit. And that was helpful for me, in my opinion. I thought it was good because at the time when I was, you know, littler, I didn't need that length of pull. Now Ricky's so spot on with the whole, you know, contorting. And I was the worst at it because I wanted it longer and longer and longer. And I kept yanking it in harder and harder and harder. And at the end of the day, I was fighting against myself. And it took me a long time, a long time and a lot of conversation with Ricky and Bobby Chambers and a few other people before I finally got to the point where I'm like, okay, I'm not going to fight anymore. I'm just going to put the gun on my face and keep my head locked in that position. You know, it took a long time. I mean, the first 10 years of my career were just, you know, get in there and. And grit it and yank it and. And there's a lot to be said about being tight on a gun. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, but, you know, when you're so pulled, it's.

[John Cadle]

You're.

[Zach Nini]

You're fighting against everything and your left eyes hanging out there to take over, and it's just not pretty.

[John Cadle]

All right, that's good advice. So keep an eye on them. Keep an eye on that length of pull. Don't go too far, and watch out if they're stretching Right.

[Zach Nini]

Watch if they're stretching.

[John Cadle]

All right, all right. Hey, Matt Tierney, thank you very much for the question. We appreciate it. We're moving on here. Zach Tubbs writes in. He said, what's it going to take to get Zach to Scott Tubbs? Is he.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's Scott Tubs.

[John Cadle]

Oh, sorry. Scott Tubbs. Yep. Sorry. Hey, listen, good producers are hard to find. Scott Tubbs writes in and says, what's it going to take to get Zach to Wisconsin? Or is he too scared? And then quickly, Matt Paulson came in and said, hey, Scott, we asked him that at the grand. And I asked if he was lactose intolerant. And Richard Marshall Jr. Said that definitely wasn't the case of milk.

[Zach Nini]

I love cheese curds. There's no issue on the lactose intolerance. I think Wisconsin is a fine shoot. I would love to come up and check it out, but I do have a full time career outside of trap shooting that I'm trying to keep rolling. So. Yeah, so there. There's just that. That word, that. That work thing. That work thing. So trying to. I'm trying to. I'm trying to balance it guys a little bit here. I'm getting to the edge, but I'm still trying to balance it. Okay, all right, that's fair.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, we got to get him out there.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Listen, Scott was one. He's a director at WTA. You know him, Tyler Buchanan, their whole board. Great, great group of folks. So if you guys can make it up to Wisconsin State shoot. It is one of the top shoots. Straight line they're putting in, you know, did you see.

[John Cadle]

Did you see what they were doing out there?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Like, yeah, they're trying to put in 12, 12 traps. I did. Look, they're putting in four to start. It should be ready by 20, 27. So I think the biggest thing they're going to have to do is Amy Jenkins is going to have to start selling some more campus spots. Just saying.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, we need more RV spots. That is for sure. That is for sure. It's a hot commodity out there in whiskey.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

It is. Yeah.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, that's what it'll take. It'll take an RV spot. Let's just put it on there. I need a spot.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

We'll put you. We'll put you down the road in the swamp.

[Zach Nini]

The koa West. Way west.

[John Cadle]

Scott, get with Amy, get Zach a spot.

[Zach Nini]

He.

[John Cadle]

He prefers him free, so just heads up.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. Oh, no, I love them free.

[John Cadle]

All right, moving on. Okay, coming into our next question here, another top fan, Nathan Hall. Nathan, thank you. For being a top fan on Facebook, Nathan, I would love to know if you could shoot both of your double barrels in handicap if you had to. Changing chokes, obviously. Are all of your barrels set up close to possible as shooting the same poi, or are they different? And if so, why? And had to sneak in a twofer. Yes. Nathan, part two here.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, we'll be expecting some tax on this, Nathan.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. Nathan. Yeah.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You could shoot both barrels. I mean, my gun's shooting about 75 to 80 on both barrels on the over under. So, yeah, you could shoot it, no problem.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, I want to have all three of my barrels shooting in the same spotters, close to the same spot as humanly possible. So there's not a lot of thinking going on. And so, yes, assuming the chokes. Assuming the chokes are correct and I don't. Don't have the skeet choke in, then yes, you could easily shoot it, you know, with no issue. I mean, I. I just, I don't. I mean, Joey shoots that over under. Blaser for everything and he never changes anything but the chokes. So you can definitely do it. It's just a preference. It goes back to preference, guys. All preference.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yep.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, Nathan, thanks for jumping in on that twofer. All right, moving on here, guys. Glenn Kleenow writes in and says, if your hold point is low on the house and you're looking through the beads, how or when do you soft focus on the target zone? I think it's more of a how do you soft focus on the target zone? Do you separate your eyes from the gun when you call? So, Rick, this is a common question in the trap shooting community because everyone has heard you say, I put my gun on the house. I. I look through the beads. And no one besides you knows what that means because we can't see through your eyes. So everyone's always asking for you to. I've asked you 10 times myself to explain it. What do you mean by looking through the beads?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, I look at beads. It's self explanatory. You see that?

[John Cadle]

Okay, so I'm gonna break this down

[Rick Marshall Jr]

because you look right, I know this

[John Cadle]

is the problem, folks. And listen, we appreciate the questions, but I'm just going to break this down for everybody. The problem with Rick is, is that because he's been shooting for so long, he's so good, he goes, listen, guys, put your. Let's mount the gun put on the house. I put it on the house every time. Look through the beast. Bird comes up, see it, shoot it, and then follow through, win everything do guys.

[Zach Nini]

It's easy.

[John Cadle]

Just go, win.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. Well, no, and seriously, just you. You want to have a little bit of a soft focus, not out at a huge distance. That's the problem with doing this, is I see people looking way out, so then their eyes get disconnected from the barrel.

[John Cadle]

How do you anchor Rick, though? How do you anchor, like, that distance? Do you look. Just try to look like maybe right past the house or.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, I'm just. I'm looking at the edge and. And. And past the house. You know, not far. Okay.

[John Cadle]

You're pretty close into that back side of the house, then. And then you just get your eye just a little.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Not the back. I always said the front edge, inner, so. And maybe, you know, 5, 10ft past.

[John Cadle]

Now you're looking 5 or 10ft approximately. Past the house.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Past the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Five, you know, five feet, four feet.

[John Cadle]

So here. But, Rick, when. When you look through those beads is. Is the gun.

[Zach Nini]

I'm.

[John Cadle]

Obviously, you're not looking at the beats, but it's blurry, right? It's kind of like a ghost. Like you're looking.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, I mean, I. I look there, there. Everything's lined up, and then I look through, and I'm staring at the edge, and as soon as I see a movement. Yeah, you're moving the gun. And then as you move, everything clears up. Now, for everybody, it's a little different. You know, I mean, I've been doing this a long time and. And seen millions of targets, so I can literally go, okay, at two feet, three feet out of the house, I'm recognizing what the target's doing. So that's the difference. So, you know, the best thing I could tell you is just, you know, don't get your eyes too far out and don't get them too high and disconnected. Because some people say I look through the beads, but then I look out at a distance. Well, if you're looking through the beads and looking out at a distance, you're not really looking to the beads.

[Zach Nini]

You know, you're.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You got too much of a disconnect there.

[John Cadle]

Okay.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

So.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. And then some people are looking like, I. I can't look through the beads, or I'm staring at the beat. That's just me. Right. You know, so I. I get my eye, like, I don't know if you were going to measure it, but two or three inches above the gun. And so I see the bottom of that rib, that high rib at the bottom of my eye.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

And I can't. I've tried. I've tried. Trust me, I've tried. Because you've said it so many times. I've, like, okay, I'm gonna put my gun in the house. I'm gonna look through the beads, and I'm just staring at this big beat,

[Rick Marshall Jr]

John. That's why you get a little bead.

[John Cadle]

Oh, is that. Oh, I need a little beat. There you go. Yeah. Okay. All right, moving on here. All right.

[Zach Nini]

You know, Rick, I. I know you had a lot of involvement with them since the beginning, since they started. But I really love the way that the shot tracker, you know, catches the doubles from shot to shot with the looping. You know, tell the folks what they need to know about that system.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

It's the best system out there. It's like having a coach on the end of your barrel, like we say. But going especially in doubles, from first shot to second shot. You can see. Can see it on the graph. You can see it on video.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah. I mean, if you talk about that J hook with Sean, Holly and all them, I mean, it'll literally show that loop, and I think that's really powerful if you're doing it. They've supported the show since the beginning. They love trap shooting. They're great people. Give them a shot, folks. They make a great product.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Take Game Technologies.

[Zach Nini]

Hey, Rick, we got to take a second. We got to thank Outlaw Engineering and the Freston family for supporting trap shooting and supporting Trap Talk podcast. They've been here for us. They're great people, you know. You know him real well, Rick.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, I. I've known Randy since 1988. R2 and. And the family, they're great supporter of the show. Coupe just won the Autumn grand handicap championship with a 97.

[Zach Nini]

I know, I was there. I got to interview him.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

It was great.

[Zach Nini]

I was so proud of him. He's doing a great job. Where's Coop? He's somewhere with that big buckle. He's having fun.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

So that's.

[Zach Nini]

So you need anything engineering related, get a hold of Outlaw. They'll take great care of you. Great.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Folks, folks, thanks for all the support, Outlaw.

[Zach Nini]

You know, Rick, I just love having the peace of mind and knowing that if I'm traveling or I'm flying, something happens, I can get my winig and my Craig off replaced quickly and easily without costing me a bunch of money.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, exactly. The gun and trophy insurance, it's the best out there to ensure your guns, sure. Your trophy, animals, everything.

[Zach Nini]

Thank you to the whole Cushman family for supporting the show and everything they do for trap shooter.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Absolutely. Get a hold of Cole cushman and he'll get you set up.

[Zach Nini]

You know, Rick, when you're riding around your aircraft conditioning and your nice can am and I'm walking, I'm thinking to myself, where do I get one of these things?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

At big red motorsports, that's where you get one. George or Jason Lee, they'll take care of you, Zach.

[Zach Nini]

I mean, I need one. I'm tired of riding on the back of that cooler. I want to sit inside that cab and roll around in style. I mean, my face is on the back, but help me out.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Listen, I'm going to move your face to the bumper is where it's going to get moved for the new one, okay? All you need is a little quiche and we can take care of you. But listen, Big RedMotorsports.com thanks Jason and George lee and big red motorsports for all the support. They'll take care of you folks. And it's free delivery.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. Here we go. Jason Christopher writes in how to maintain consistency through each round. I find my first round to be good. Then either fatigue or mental control fall off and I go as I go into the next round. So how are we keeping it guys throughout that 100 birds?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, it's one target at a time. Zach can tell you the same thing. It's just one target at a time. You don't have fun, stay loose, don't. What happens is the. The more nervous we get, the more adrenaline gets going, which takes up energy. So you just stay loose. I mean, listen, you know, everybody out there can come watch our squad shoot. I mean, we're having fun. No matter if we're breaking, you know, 17, 18 or we're breaking 25s. Seriously, I mean, will we have a little, you know, pissy fit for a split second there maybe with the 17 or the 18?

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, 17 or 18. We're gonna be laughing at whoever did that. We're gonna be like, oh, bad day for you. But really, it's so. I think what happens more times than not what I'm seeing is people go into that one round that they shot well or whatever with all this, like, super laser focused, like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And. And then they almost get, like, wore out. Because I've seen people that go out there and they're, like looking at the house and lined up and they won't even, like, move their head or anything. And, like, no noises. And like, they gotta be perfect. And then Einstein says, you Only have a certain amount of focus a day, right? A little, a little intense focus, a tight little amount. So you're gonna tell me that you can do that for an hour when you've only got a few minutes of this focus? 21 minutes a day, a genius can do. So you've got this small little window, right? But Ricky is the greatest I've ever seen at it. He can focus for three seconds at a time and then go on to everything else. So he's only burning three seconds of his fuel because he's out there and he's over here, over there watching his son, talking to me, you know, thinking about podcast. Bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. And then the gun hits his face and he's focused for three seconds. Bang. Break the target. Now he's back in a relax of state. So I think the great shooters go from a concentration state to a relaxed state multiple times quickly and easily in and out of those zones. You have to be ultra focused when you're shooting, but you have to be ultra laid back when you're in rest state. Because if you try to hold that focus state for 25, 50 or 75 shots, you're going to wear out. I mean, you're not going to be able to, to keep everything out of your head for that long. It's just, it's impossible. And yeah, you burn out.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

One of the greatest things, you know, Zach and I did a podcast, which you guys will see with George DaCosta, dog trainer. And he talks a little bit about, you know, listening, you know, when, you know, don't. When someone tells you something, don't talk about yourself or don't do this and, and listening and, and, you know, I was fortunate growing up with Leo and Frank Copley. Mainly Frank is listening. I did a lot of listening. I learned numbers, I learned all the, I mean, just so many things from Frank. And one of the things was this concentration. And it was. And he pounded it into me on, you know, into my head going, Rick, you can't do concentration for 25 straight targets. I tried it. If anybody out there, go out there and try shooting 25 singles and not do anything but focus intensely, you know, load your shell and, and watch and, you know, shoot, load yourself and watch everybody else shooting. And Trust me, after 25, it'll feel like you shot all day. Where Frank said and where Zach gets is, is because I tell everybody three seconds. So literally, folks, in a hundred target event, the only time you have to concentrate three seconds per shot. That equals five minutes for around 100. Five minutes. Now, you shoot 300 targets a day, 15 minutes. Now, I will say in handicap, sometimes it, you know, you might concentrate a little bit more because you're focusing, but I don't recommend to deviate from that stuff because it's the same thing you're shooting. It's the same timing it should be, you know, so the concentration is what kills us, is you get out there and you see that where they're stuck, and they're like, okay, well, that mind's just, you know, and it's not good. So three seconds shoot and go, baby. That's all you need.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, I love that, guys. That's really good advice, too, because it's the coming in and out of it easily, too, right? Because, Rick, I've seen you depending on where we're shooting around the country, but I've seen you have to walk back to the scorekeeper. Okay, what do you have on the paper? What's there? Talking to them. Okay. No, hey, fix this. All right, Good. All right, everybody good. Boom. Walks back up. Smoke. You know where some of us, when we're on a score, if we had to go back and talk to the scorekeeper. Rounds done, buddy. They did checked out. It was just too much.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You can see. And Zach, you know, we've been shoot. Remember, we've been shooting places where, you know, I always lead off course. And like, in doubles, I broke my last pair and the targets ran out. I'm like, all right, boy, see you later. And everybody's like, but I've also been on the other side of that, where I've had a pair or two to go and just ran out of targets, and people are like, how do you do that? I'm like, well, first off, I. I don't let that bother me.

[John Cadle]

Right? And that's your score, right? It doesn't affect your score.

[Zach Nini]

So there's something there that Ricky just said. It's a mouthful. And so things are going to happen, and we talked about this on the show a few times, but things are going to happen. The house is going to run out, it's going to rain, your gun is going to break. You're going to have a bad shell. It's going to. It's going to happen. The only thing that you have control over, how you react when it's happening, you can control your thoughts during it. Now, if you let. If you let the machine run out, the machine's gonna run out. Nobody's fault. Now, I've seen the guys that the machine ran out. Oh my God, it ran out. I'm 95 straight. And they're thinking in the. And they start thinking now I'm gonna miss because of it because I had to stop and. And I'm gonna. And they're already giving them. It's like they're already given the speech in the clubhouse before they even missed it. It's in their mind. And you've heard it like if you've ever been on the line and you've heard that guy talking in your head, that's what we're talking about right here, folks. Because I've had it. I've had it in the beginning of my career where I'm like, oh my God, I was about to run, I was about to win the event. Now look what's happening. And it's going to mess me up or the wind or the whatever, right? So the great guys, the best, they start to say, well, I can, you know, yeah, it ran out, but I can control how I feel about what happened and I don't let it affect me. I can, I can just keep going on with my day because it's no big deal. In the grand scheme of things, it's no big deal. I mean, we're here, we're having a vacation, we're shooting, we're having fun. Nobody died, right? It's okay. And I think when people start to get that really laid back approach to the game, that's when they start to open up a new levels where most people are so wired and so tight and it's so important to them that when something goes out of cog. Oh my God, they made a noise behind me. Like we gotta be a little bit mentally tougher than that. Just let that stuff glide right off of you.

[John Cadle]

Yep, I, yep, really great advice there for sure. Jason, we thank you for the question. Yes, Felicia Patrick is up next. Oh, Felicia, Felicia's here. How does the point system work for making the all American team?

[Zach Nini]

All right, we're going to give the,

[John Cadle]

the high level view here, Felicia, and give you kind of the framework here. You can go to shoot ata.com there. There is a document on there about the all American points. So definitely check that out. But just in the interest of answering your question, we'll give you the high level. Zach, give the high level framework on all American points and how the non free ones work.

[Zach Nini]

You know, high level, high level. First, second or third score in the event in your category. Okay. And depending on where you're at, is

[Rick Marshall Jr]

she asking about category.

[John Cadle]

She just said how do all American

[Zach Nini]

points work in your category?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

She's asking about. She's asking about category because her son Marshall Patrick is a student of mine. So.

[John Cadle]

Okay. Yeah, I know he didn't mention that in the post, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

They're from central Nebraska, so. Yeah, you do. Categories are a little different than open on it where I mean the points are all the same but in the categories there always is one person that gets champion points and then if they're tied, so two people tied with a hundred, that one person that wins a care whatever is going to get 5 or 10. Next person is going to get 7 or 4 with the 100 and then the 99 will get 3 or 5 or the, then 98 is going to get 3 or 2. So it's, it varies by the event, by championship or non.

[Zach Nini]

There's a lot of details there that he's giving. These are like, these are like intricacies, right. But just the simplest think of top three scores. That's your, your deal. And then seven shoots, you get to use seven shoots. And if you can remember, seven shoots wherever they are in the country and

[Rick Marshall Jr]

top three scores, if they have enough attendees.

[Zach Nini]

If they have enough attendees to qualify for points.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. The best thing to do is, is look on, if you just type in on, on Google or Chrome, just type in ATA All American point shoots and it'll pop up and it'll list out all the shoots that got points last year. Usually.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, there's a lot on ata. Yeah, it'll have the. And now that the rules are always changing, but now some of them are grandfather grandfathered in from last year. Whatever it was, it will be kind of thing. And so you know, you have to, if you want to get into this game and you want to go after that. I really think you should spend some time reading all the all American rules. I mean the comment would be read the rules on that and then look at your shoots and look at your qualifiers and look at the comp factors and go through and kind of work through figuring that out.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

It takes gonna do to, to make the team. What I always say is, you know, try to hit every, every shoot big shoot, possibly you can state shoots, satellite grands and the Grand American. You know, there is some other other shoots. The US Opens listed as another shooter. You know, the Missouri Fall Handicaps listed as another shoot. But these are also, you know, five factor shoots or four factor shoots. And that's the ones you always want to hit. The top factor because that goes on attendance and. And that's how you, you know, are able to get, you know, a lot of points. So.

[John Cadle]

Very cool. All right, Felicia, you've got some homework to do, but there is the general framework. Top three scores, top seven shoots. All right, moving on. All right, Scott Weimer writes in and says, long yardage handicap. Which do you recommend? Raising the comb, lowering your whole point, or sending the gun up to shoot handicap and learning how to shoot the same poi at singles and doubles? Well, Scott, you took the words right out of Ricky Martin.

[Zach Nini]

We don't even need to answer it.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Scott, Scott, listen.

[John Cadle]

Ten minutes.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You better bring good bourbon down to the chute. Okay? There you go.

[John Cadle]

All right.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

And number two, you answered your own question.

[Zach Nini]

You got it.

[John Cadle]

You did set that gun up for a handicap. And when you're smoking them there, just go learn how to shoot your singles and your doubles. All right, thank you for answering your own question. Moving on. Colton Langer writes in and says, what discipline do you think most important to practice if you only have a certain amount of time and money to make you the most season ready? So Colton wants to know if I can only kind of put my dollars into something. And then Nicholas writes in quickly to Colton and says, practice.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Listen, Kubos is always on the Internet.

[John Cadle]

He's a.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

He's a keyboard warrior. You know, he was just giving. I'm reading all these stuff on here, and Kubos, you know, I call him Zip Tie. Ask folks. Ask him why his nickname Zip Tie. So he had a zip tie his rib on his gun. That's why. But anyway, you know, honestly, the discipline. So personally, I would get literally dominating at singles. Shoot singles if that's what you can do. Shoot some doubles, too, but sprinkling around a handicap here and there. Don't just shoot one discipline. Try to split it up if you can. You know, that's. That's my answer.

[John Cadle]

So if you can only shoot around a week, Rick, you know, one round a week, like time wise or financially, you're like, hey, I can only really do, like, you know, one session at the club a week. Do we do one discipline a week or do we try to do.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I would do one discipline a week, and then the next week do the another discipline. Okay, that's what I would recommend.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, and I think that's something you guys were hitting on before, and we didn't dive too deep into it, but it really is. It's all trap shooting. We know, but these are three different disciplines that require three different setups and Mindset and approach to the bird. And. And I think too often when shooters are coming up, they're just looking at it as trap shooting. Like, oh, I should be able to set my gun up in this one way and it just works for everything. And I should do this and it works for everything. And then they hear Ricky say, well, I just put my gun in the house and I see the bird. So, you know, they get a mixed signal there. But it is still three different disciplines. The way you approach your doubles and your singles in your handicap, from what I've heard from you guys, is different.

[Zach Nini]

You know, if you want to be well rounded and you want to do it the way that we're talking about doing it, then what Ricky said is 100% right. If somebody comes to me and says, zach, I only have a budget to do this, then my question would be, okay, well, which one do you want to win? Do you want to win in handicap, do you want to win in singles or do you want to win in doubles?

[John Cadle]

Pick one.

[Zach Nini]

And then if you only have so much resources, I would rather be good at one game than okay at three games. Like, I'd rather say, okay, I'm going to work on this one. Like for me, at the beginning, a lot of my effort was into doubles and handicap with my resources because I knew that in the day where I was, that was going to help me win more overalls and all arounds in the sub junior and junior category back then. So I didn't waste resources on the 16 yard line as much because I'm like, I only got so many shells to use, right? So but if you're like trying to build the game evenly, then exactly what Ricky said. I mean, that is the way to do it. You got to shoot them all. But, but you know, if you're like, I'm going to win handicap or I want to get to the 27 yard line as quick as possible, well, then I wouldn't worry about shooting anything but that shot and figuring it out now your singles are going to suck. But, you know, you could, you could, you could get some distance there, you know, so just a thought.

[John Cadle]

All right, well, guys, again, thank you very much for the questions. We're going to keep it rolling here. Hunter Brown writes in with probably one of the most important questions of the day. Who's your favorite weekend warrior shooter and why is it me? This is what Hunter Brown needs to know. He wants to know.

[Zach Nini]

It's Jason Fullback. Jason Fullback is my favorite weekend warrior. He is a bad mofo. And you do not want him. When you see that guy rolling in and the wind's blowing, he going. He going to take some. Some Louis money. Okay? He is up.

[John Cadle]

He's onto your pocket.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

You know what?

[Zach Nini]

Your pocketbook.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Folks, I hate to say it, but Jason is a little bit taller than Zach, so.

[Zach Nini]

Oh, my God.

[John Cadle]

Jeez.

[Zach Nini]

How many times are we gonna have to make him edit this out.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

For. For about 35 years, he's been the same height. So. Zach, he's got you beat, buddy. I'm just saying. Joey Charles, that picture up there, I can't help it, you know?

[John Cadle]

Okay, well, okay, folks. So moving on. Hunter Brown, thank you very much. And it is confirmed. You are close, but not the choice on the weekend warrior lineup. All right, moving on. Mark Brown comes in and says, what words or sounds. Okay, what words or sound you make for calling a bird? Okay, maybe he's talking about this.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

We've talked about this multiple times, and we did it.

[Zach Nini]

We beat this one.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

We beat this one down. We're not. We're staying away from hard consonants because we don't want to move our head on the gun. We're. We're kind of calling from the gut, right? And

[Zach Nini]

something. Something.

[John Cadle]

Just bring it up from something, you know? Yeah, yeah.

[Zach Nini]

I mean, it's. It's. It's. It's too loud to show on the show today. Yeah.

[John Cadle]

I'll say this, folks. If you're. If your head is shaking off the gun when you're calling for the bird, may not be the right call. Right. No, keep that head on the gun when you're calling. But thank you for the question mark. We appreciate it. Go back to our YouTube channel. Check out some of our videos. We definitely cover that one for you. Joe Vancura writes in and says, what do you budget for a whole season and what's your biggest year of payouts?

[Zach Nini]

Don't ask questions.

[John Cadle]

We're going to.

[Zach Nini]

These are not.

[John Cadle]

This one.

[Zach Nini]

These.

[John Cadle]

These are not questions you answer on the Internet. But I will say this. There's no budget when you. When you're winning, guys. It pays for itself. What are we worried about here?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

So, I mean, yeah, we don't. I mean, I go. I set to. To go to, you know, about roughly maybe nine, ten shoots a year. So, you know, it might be more. It just depends on, you know, what we're doing. But, yeah. And winning wise, I don't know. That would. I'd have to go back and look at stuff.

[Zach Nini]

But, yeah, it's no comment, Rick. That's that. That's the right answer?

[John Cadle]

Yeah. No comment on that.

[Zach Nini]

No comment.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

It don't bother me. I pay taxes on all my stuff, so it's fine.

[John Cadle]

But, yeah, we definitely understand that people have budgets. Right. They need to kind of look at. And, you know, there's a lot of factors here. It's how, you know, how far you travel.

[Zach Nini]

Here's what you should do. If you really want to talk about this from a budgetary standpoint, figure out what your vacation and or fun budget is based on your income and your life. Set that aside and say, this is what I want to shoot for, trap shooting. Or if you say, okay, my budget's this for the whole family for the whole year, well, then is half of that towards trap shooting? Is 75% towards trap shooting? I mean, I don't know the situation. You know, I don't know what they're making. I don't know, you know, if they've got a family. I don't. I don't know any of that.

[John Cadle]

Right.

[Zach Nini]

But it needs to be relative to where you are in your life and something that you're comfortable losing. One thing I will say is if you go into the shoot preparing to lose every dollar that you spent, then anything you get back is bonus. So don't go in. Don't. Don't go showing up acting like you're going to scratch out every dollar that you spend at a shoot because you might be disappointed on the back end. Go in there with the expectation that, I wrote this check, I can afford this money, I can do it, and then whatever you get back, that's what you get back. And I think if you can comfortably do that, then that's the answer to the question. And the more you have available to do, the more shoots you can go to. But that's different for every person.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

A lot of us decide that trap shooting is that entertainment budget. It is that travel budget. It is that vacation budget. That's what we're using that money for, because that's what we prefer to do.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

So.

[John Cadle]

But, hey, thank you very much for the question, Joe. We really appreciate that. This is an easy one coming in from Stephen Melton. Shell speed for singles. Zach Shell speed for singles.

[Zach Nini]

I'm 1145.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

And Rick, I'm 1165 with FIS. That's their 1145 ish dynamics, right? Yeah, shooting dynamics, the SDS. But listen, folks, I just did this, this youth, youth class up in Wisconsin and talked to a lot of the SCTB coaches, had 15 of them. It's a great time. Appreciate the, the Wisconsin foundation for bringing me in. And, and I, I saw a lot of the coaches had 1200s, and I just did some lessons at home with some kids, the high school kids that were shooting 1200s or singles. I do not recommend 1200ft a second through dram shells or singles at all. I don't care if, if any manufacturer dropped a off semi load of 1200s, I wouldn't shoot them. I wouldn't. I, I. You're beating yourself up. So if I'm a guy, I'm 300 pounds shooting, you know, 1165s and I'm not going to shoot 1200s, what's it going to make for, you know, a smaller individual? Little Johnny, you kid that.

[John Cadle]

Yeah.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

So the 1145 to 1165 ounces. Eight eights. Perfect single shell. Let her rip.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah, I think, I think, I think people get too preoccupied in speed. They think they need a lot more speed than they need. And I actually, one of my favorite shells that I ever shot in my whole life wasn't called an STS low recoil. And it was ounce and an 8th at 1100. And I don't even know if they still make it, but they made it for the federal line in the papers. But they were these extra light and they were 1100. And I'm telling you right now, the pattern on that 1100, I started reloading to that speed, and the pattern that I would get would just crush targets. And it wasn't about the speed. It's about pattern density. I mean, you could talk to some of the best shooters in the world and they will talk about pattern density is much more important than speed because speed is just the amount of lead. Right. But if you put that shot on the right spot, then it's all about density. And so, you know, the faster you push a given load, the more opportunity you have for flyers and holes in the pattern. I mean, if you start pushing a load at 1600ft a second, you're going to spread that pattern stuff's going to go everywhere you go a little bit slower. Extremely. It's going to get where you're going. Right. So I think lower recoil staying on the gun and denser patterns create better breaks.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you very much, Stephen. Good question. Always good to hear what the guys are thinking about, you know, what ammo that they're using. All right, we're gonna keep moving it on here. Tyler Buckman, speaking of Wisconsin. I think Tyler might still be one of the VPs out there. Right.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

He Is on the board. Yep.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. So Tyler writes in and says, when the second doubles target is getting pushed down, do you change how much of a dip you move the gun when you're going from the first target to the second target? Is that even something conscious that you think about? Rip?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

It's really. It's not. What I do is I shift my eyes over. And, you know, you shoot when you shift your eyes over, go to the target when they're dip. When the target's going down, you. You can't dip down. You just. You gotta go to it, you know, type of shot. So, yeah, it's very simple. There's no other.

[Zach Nini]

Get your eyes on it as soon as you can. Just like Rick says, when you shoot that first bird. If we just shot him the other day, I think we were in Florida and they were doing that one day in the event we shot that first bird. And then you went and looked and you had to see from that spot what was it doing and where was it going. And, you know, it wasn't as traditional as, oh, we're gonna make this nice little hook. It was just like, naturally, there it is. Okay. And I gotta make that move. And you live and die with it.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

And that was the day Zach, remember, I. I threw a pair and it looked kind of goofy that the target did something weird. I was like, I better throw me another pair. So he threw one where I said, ah, I guess they're gonna go up. And I call pole. And they went and I broke. Zach was like, what the heck was that?

[Zach Nini]

If you get into the point to where you're physically saying, I'm going to adjust the move from. From the back, you're done. You cannot, you do not have the mental capacity to change the move or change the instincts from the shooter level while the targets are in the air. There's not enough time to calculate that. You have to rely on your eyes. Your move is your move. And you stay on that gun. You see that bird and then you reactively make a move to it. And sometimes it's not going to be that pretty, pretty move. I mean, we've made some shots where, you know, they're not pretty moves to the bird, but they break because our eyeballs said, oh, crap, it's going down there and I need to go down there and. And you still hit it, right? You still hit it. But, Ricky, I mean, eyes on the bird, eyes on the bird.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Kill the turtle.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. Rick, there's a video that came out recently that Fiocchi put out where you were talking about the Fiocchi shells, and you actually shoot a pair right in this video. And, folks, if you can go to the Fiocchi channel on Facebook or Instagram, you will see this video of Rick. And you want to talk about eye movement. He shoots the bird. His eyes completely move, and then the gun goes over and shoots the other bird. And Tish and I were watching it the other day, and she was just like, that's how he does. That's how Rick's doing it. He's moving his eyes like that. I was like, yeah, he says it

[Rick Marshall Jr]

to us every time you have to.

[John Cadle]

Yes. Yeah, so we saw that. But it was a very. We rarely get to see shooters from the front. Rick, you know.

[Zach Nini]

You know, very rare.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, it'd be kind of dangerous to.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, the camera was probably pretty far away, but it was very interesting to see that you shot. Your eyes moved and then the gun moved and it was like, you know, it really showed that process the eyes,

[Zach Nini]

tell the gun where to go.

[John Cadle]

Yeah.

[Zach Nini]

Direct the gun.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, yeah. I'm always trying. That's when I go and practice levels. That's the one thing I'm always trying to practice, is pulling that trigger and moving the eyes. Just trying to move the eyes, you know, because it doesn't come natural, you know, to. To do that, you know, you kind of have to practice it. So. But, hey, Tyler, thank you very much and, yeah, we'll see you in Wisconsin soon. Brendan Buckus. I think Brendan's from New York, right? Isn't he out there in New York? Yeah, he's at the Nevada State shoot. Yeah, Mallory's deck. He writes in and says, what do you guys consider good target presentation? Is it speed, height, background, target type, etc. So when you guys say that that's a good target presentation, what are you referring to?

[Zach Nini]

I just love the way they're covering all the shoots across the country, the content, the pictures, what they're doing online with the. What they're doing on Facebook, Instagram. What do you think?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah. Traption usa, it's a great magazine. They are the official magazine of our podcast, and we are the official podcast of Traption usa. So we really appreciate it.

[Zach Nini]

That's really cool. And what they got is a deal right now. If you put Trap Talk PN for the print version and Trap Talk D for the digital version, it's 19.99 for the print and $9.99 for the digital for one year, you're not going to find a better deal. So subscribe Today you can. You won't regret it.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Absolutely. Thank you for all the support.

[Zach Nini]

Rick, I really think that Gunfit's probably the most important part of shooting big scores. Would you agree with that?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Absolutely. I think Gunfit is the most important thing.

[Zach Nini]

I mean, most of the top all Americans are shooting custom stocks. I know when I got my custom stock, my scores went up. I broke 100 straight from the 27 within seven days. I mean, I'm sure your experience has been similar.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, I've been shooting a custom gun stock for 20 years. Winning. If you want to win Chase chips, get a win of gun stock.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah. Call Bobby, call Luke. I mean, we got the stock whisperer over there, Bill. Give them a shot. They're great and they know what they're doing.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Absolutely. Winig.com check them out. Usually the height of the target or how they're flying, I mean, there isn't, you know, I mean, most of it, target presentation is, is just how the club has worked to, to throw that target. And honestly, you know, most clubs that go to, I, I don't think we've been to one recently where the target presentation has been horrible.

[John Cadle]

You know, how much does that background play a role? Because, you know, if you come out from the western zone, where I'm at, versus you come out to, you know, the Midwest. Right. The target presentation in the Midwest with this flat ground green, you know, it's definitely, you know, target presentation.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I don't look at or worry about background.

[John Cadle]

I was halfway through saying that and I knew that's what you were gonna.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

And you knew I was gonna say that.

[John Cadle]

I almost stopped myself too, because I was like, Rick's gonna say, what do you mean background? I'm looking at the orange.

[Zach Nini]

Look at the damn target. Boy.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right.

[Zach Nini]

Look at the target.

[John Cadle]

I should, I should have just stopped mid sentence.

[Zach Nini]

So if, if you're asking because we've said good target presentation on the show multiple times and I think that's what he's referring to in this question.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I think so. Yeah.

[Zach Nini]

So I would say good target presentation has equality across the fields. So like, if I go and we shoot a four, four trap bank, you know, some days they're going to be higher, some days they're going to be lower, some days they're going to be faster, slower, whatever.

[John Cadle]

Right?

[Zach Nini]

Like. But what I would consider good presentation is consistency. If we can shoot all four traps and all four traps are very similarly consistent, well, then that's a really good target presentation. In my mind. Assuming that it falls within the regulations of what an ATA legal target is. That would be, that would be good target presentation. If, if you have one target, one house that set down on the floor, and the next house is up to the moon and the next house is slow, and then the next house is fast, well, then I would consider that bad target presentation because you had four different gun clubs that you shot at in 100. In 100 rounds. So, you know, but the other stuff is pretty much out of your control. What's in the gun club's control is can they get spin on the target? Well, yeah, that's maintaining the machines. Can they set a consistent rock? Yes, that's checking the speeds. You know, can they set a consistent height based on where the machines are on a bank? Yes. So if they're doing those things, they qualify for good target presentation in my mind.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, absolutely.

[John Cadle]

And that's. And I think that's when we hear you guys talk about like, you know, oh, Sean, Holly sets a good target.

[Zach Nini]

It.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Oh, yeah, he's, you know, every trap is the same, speed's the same, and if you think something's different, he'll go check it, no problem. And as will most clubs. So. Yeah, I just always recommend for any gun club out there is to throw consistent targets on every trap. That way you give your shooters every opportunity to break every target.

[John Cadle]

Rick, is it, is it in the rule book that a shooter. I, I thought there was something mentioned in the rule book about a consistency across traps as they're shooting around. Is there something in there?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Go back and look. But I don't think there is.

[John Cadle]

I just think it's nothing official.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Parameters is, you know.

[John Cadle]

Okay.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

What, you know, they should just go back to throw them to the 50 yard stake and let her rip. Potato chip. Let her rip. Tip.

[John Cadle]

Yeah. Okay, well, hey, that was a good question. Brendan. We really appreciate you writing in and hope to see you back here in Vegas.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right. See, Bring some good bourbon with you too.

[John Cadle]

Yes. Oh, and cigars. Brendan's a big cigar guy too. All right, Mike Barry writes in and he says, hey, what are some of your favorite small clubs to visit either to shoot, coach, eat, play cards, etc? You guys have any shout outs for some of the smaller clubs that you guys like to hit up?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I mean, smaller clubs. Middletown, Ohio, was always a fun club for me to go to. You know, I'm just trying to think for. I mean, God, I used to play a lot of car. My own gun club here at Lake of Trabisquite. We Used to play a lot of cards there at night and a lot of Boo Ray card games and stuff. But honestly, I would just say this. Every gun club in the country is my favorite club. Why? Because I get to go do what I love every day and that shoot a clay target at a gun club.

[Zach Nini]

You know, they're all great people.

[John Cadle]

Memories, you know, share a common hobby too, which, you know.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, we got memories at all of them.

[Zach Nini]

They're, they're so much fun. I mean, there's something, I mean, when you talk about little clubs, I would say that sub 10 trap kind of zone, right. And like the ones that, that resonate with me forever. Sunnyvale Rod and Gun Club, Metcalf Field Sports park in California. Martinez. Martinez Gun Club. I've had so much fun at the Martinez Gun Club in my life. You know, Gateway Gun club here in St. Louis. Shot them quite a bit. Martinez, Daniel Boone Club. Yeah. Martin. Yep. I don't know if they're still giving them. I don't know if they're still giving them, but they used to, I mean it was, it was a great time. And so, you know, there's a lot of gun clubs out there that, you know, do a great job. And you know, you got to keep supporting those local little gun clubs. If we want to have a place to practice for these big shoots. I think it's easy to keep these big places open when they have these big shoots every year. But it's harder and harder to keep these smaller clubs open, these, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten trap clubs. So keep supporting shooting the leagues if you can, folks.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Mike. That was a great question. Thank you very much. All right, Stephen Smith, another top fan on the Facebook page, writes in, at what handicap yardage would you guys switch from 1145, number eight to 1200, seven and a half. Also, would your hold points change as you get closer to the 27? Thanks, guys. Big fan of the show.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Well, same hold points, but I'll be honest with you, you can shoot 11:45, seven halves at the 27 if you want to race. Stafford did it successfully for a long time. Devin Harris, the old federal rep for federal. Devin won the hundred thousand dollar shootout shooting 11:45, seven and a half. Broke 50 straight in the shoot off after breaking 99 in the event. And you know, so that is shoot what you're comfortable shooting for handicap. That's simple as that.

[Zach Nini]

Right Back to our earlier question, the pattern density. You don't need all that speed, guys. You don't. There's A lot of hundred twenty seven.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah. I mean here at where we're at in the Midwest. Yes. I like a handicap shell. You don't need it. If you, if you can make the picture consistent with whatever lighter shell you're using, it's going to break it. It has enough kill power at the end of the gun is what we're to going saying. So you just have to find what you like the best. I, I think I went to handicap shells and started shooting more handicap shells when I hit like 24 yard line, if that's the question he's asking. Right about 24 was kind of where I'm like, you know what? I'd like to get there a little quicker. And that's where I started shooting heavier shells.

[John Cadle]

Do you guys think that that transition point as you move back in handicap around the 24, for example, is this when we need to start looking at the, you know, setting the gun for handicap? Does things start to change enough when you get back to the 24, 25 where they should check in on.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, I would set it up for, for that. I, I set up every gun no matter what, just set it up from the 27 yard line and shoot. That's the end game. That's where you want to be.

[John Cadle]

So, you know, okay, I gotcha.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

Okay.

[Zach Nini]

Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know that going into it. So I didn't know that the end goal, like set it up for the 27. I'd never heard that before. So for me, I basically set it up for. I knew handicap was the important game. I set it up for wherever I was. So like, I was like, okay, my yard line's 23 yard line. I was like setting it up, get it ready. And then it just kind of carried me back and then I'd have to retool it a little bit as I got further. But there wasn't a lot of change. I mean there wasn't a ton of major changes to the gun from where I was to the back because the first gun I shot didn't have an adjustable rib. So it was more like I had the sight picture that I wanted. And I think people forget this a lot. A lot of the guns originally were not adjustable rib guns. They were fixed rib guns. You had an adjustable comb. And for me, I got the sight picture that I wanted and felt good with. And then you pretty much learned on the way back with what you had because there wasn't, I mean, unless you were going to bend the barrel, there wasn't a whole lot you could do to get more point of impact out of it. And a lot of my, you know, mentors, like, you know, Bobby Chambers told me a long time ago, he said, with washers in the gun, he says you're only going to get so much point of impact with adding washers. He says it's just changing the way you look down it. It's not adding, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30% point of impact by putting these little washers in. I mean, that's more for the way you look down it and how comfortable you are than for major point of impact changes. So major point of impact changes happen with adjustable combs and adjustable ribs, if you have them perfect.

[John Cadle]

So John Cadle jumped in on Stephen Smith's post here with a reply and said, hey, adding to this question a bit, what are the pros and cons of using different loads compared to using a tighter choke? Same with doubles. I see a lot of shooters using two different loads for doubles. Again, what would the pros and cons be of different loads compared to a tighter choke? For the second bird, what are your recommendations? Choke and ammo for yardage groups and for doubles people, they need the details. Guys, these are trap shooters. They need. They want it broken down. We know some of this, of course. Right? We know that, Rich, you're shooting a light and a heavy, right? So you're shooting your shooting dynamics. 1165, right?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

And then the first shot, 1250, White Rhino 7, second shot. And that's my single shell and then my handicap shell. But for doubles, it's 20,000ths and 30,000ths mod IMOD and a Craig off and, you know, like some Briley chokes. A 20 and 30 is going to be a mod and a light full. I don't recommend going all the way to a full for second shot of doubles. I think it's too tight, so.

[John Cadle]

All right, too tight. And then, Zach, what's. What's your setup, Zach?

[Zach Nini]

Exactly the same chokes. I think 20 and 30 are the best double chokes ever made. If you're going to guess. The only difference I have is I shoot light, light just because I don't want to have two different boxes of shells. And that's literally the only reason I only use one box of shells. When I shoot, I don't carry two pouches. I dump one in kind of California style. And then when I get halfway through the round, I grab another box. And that's. That's the Benias way, the Holly way.

[John Cadle]

I mean, it should be illegal, you know, to be able to, to dump your box of shells on the thing and, and, you know, get them kicked over by somebody and then make them feel bad. You know, that's what it is.

[Zach Nini]

It is what it is. But, but you know, that, that's the way, that's the way a lot of the people in California did it. I mean, they, yeah, it was

[Rick Marshall Jr]

puffy targets. That's why, you know.

[John Cadle]

Yeah, shooting lollipops. You know, I, I, I will say, Rick, you know, I, I moved over to that light. And then the handicap on the second bird. It's a good day. I do like, oh, yeah, yeah. But I carry two pouches because I can handle the weight. All right, so here we go. Moving on. Rusty. Patrick, if your handicap is at the 22 yard line and you have not mastered that yet, does it make sense to practice at the 24 or 25 yard line? Does that help you or hurt you? Thinking, confidence, muscle memory. This question comes up a lot at the range, like, you know, practicing ahead.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Listen, John, you didn't catch this.

[John Cadle]

I did. What didn't I? What did I miss?

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Rusty and Felicia's husband and wife, they got a twofer in

[Zach Nini]

two. First, I tell you, these people, you

[John Cadle]

know what, we gotta start charging for these two first guys.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

I'm telling you, they're a great family. So that is funny.

[John Cadle]

Felicia's like, Felicia's like, rusty, Rusty, you got to put this in. I don't want to get accused of a twofer.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, she knew what was going to happen. But, yeah, you, you listen, I say, yeah, practice as far back as you need to. That doesn't matter. I mean, honestly, I mean, that, that shouldn't matter, you know, so just, you know, like I said, and I tell everybody this all the time, if you're, if you're on the 25, go stand on the 27 to shoot. Practice. That's not going to hurt you by any means.

[Zach Nini]

Absolutely not. I, I, I think when I started, I wanted to be on the 27 as quickly as possible. And so I shot a lot of targets at 27. And it was like figuring stuff out. And then when I went up close, I'm like, oh, this is easy, right? Like, if you practice harder than you play, then you're gonna do fine. Like, there's never anything wrong with, oh, well, can I shoot faster targets than ata or can I shoot high? Yeah, if you shoot stuff that's harder than what you're gonna shoot in an event and you can hit it, well, then Guess what you're gonna do when you go to the event. You're gonna, you're gonna hit those two. So, you know, there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah, the confidence is everything. And, and for me it was a big mental boost. When I'm like, when I broke my first 25 from the 27 not being a 27 yarder shooter, like, I'm like, oh, well, I can go up and I can wreck shop at the 20. Like it's like you are 10ft tall when you do something like that. And you have to have that confidence in that bravado to be able to punch back and say, okay, I'm getting off this 20 yard line, I'm getting off this 22. I'm getting. And I think so many people are like, I'm at the 22 and they're practicing it and they're like maxed out and they're trying everything they can to hit it. And it's like, no, make it way harder. Figure it out. And then walk up there and just freaking crush a. Crush it. You know, make it.

[John Cadle]

That's a different perspective on it too.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right.

[John Cadle]

When you, you walk back there and you, you, you're hitting it from the 27, you're like, why am I getting so stressed out up at the 22?

[Zach Nini]

It really does.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah.

[John Cadle]

Changes your mindset a little bit, you know, But I think, you know, trap shooters can be basket cases, they can be mental cases. You know, so many things gets in our head, you know, I mean, that's just trap, right? It's like, so it's like, oh, I don't want to go stand at the 27 because my move to the target's going to be different and you know, it's going to mess up my 22 yard game. It's like, folks, relax, you're overthinking this thing. Just exactly go shoot from everywhere. Crank the machine up, set it low, set it high. Show yourself that you can hit these birds.

[Zach Nini]

Learn to shoot a shotgun. Some of the best trap shooters I've ever seen in my life are. Guess what? They're great shotgun shooters. They could shoot sporting clays, ski trap birds. I mean, these guys are just good with a shotgun. I mean, if you're good with a shotgun, it doesn't matter what distance you stand and shoot the targets with. Right? So yeah, become a better shotgun shooter, not a better 22 yard shooter.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

That's right.

[John Cadle]

Yeah.

[Rick Marshall Jr]

Yeah, that's fun.

[John Cadle]

And don't be a basket case.

[Zach Nini]

Sa.