← Trap Talk From The Back Fence
Trap Talk From The Back Fence
Trap Talk Ep 140: Remembering Mike Jordan – Industry Legend, Hall of Famer with Mike Hampton.
00:58:59
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back, trap Talk listeners. I'm your host, Zach Danini. I'm here with my co Host, Richard Marshall Jr. We are in Building 106 at the Grand American for the 2025 shoot. We're excited to start. And for the first interview, we have Mr. Mike Hampton from Federal Remington. Thank you for coming on the show.
- [00:18]
B
You're very welcome.
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A
Welcome to season three of trap talk.
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C
Brought to you by Craig off, the choice of champions.
- [00:25]
A
All right, folks, we got to take a quick second and give a huge shout out to our title sponsor, Craig off. Me and Ricky both shoot them. We both love them.
- [00:32]
C
Yeah. Best gun in the industry. I shoot them, I sell them. Nothing better. Folks. Get yourself a Craig up. Your scores will increase.
- [00:40]
A
Yeah, I mean, Ricky's got hundreds and hundreds of hundreds with his. I mean, I've got a few hundreds, but. But I'm always working to get a little bit better and they definitely help me, that's for sure. So on top of that, we also got to thank winning. I'm wearing the shirt today. Love this shirt. If you're down at the grand, pick one up.
- [00:54]
C
Yeah. Winning. Like I said, Zach, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of my winning stock. You know, get a hold of Bobby, Luke, Bill, get an appointment set up. They will make you a better shooter with that winning stock. Of course.
- [01:07]
A
Yeah. The grand is a great place to do it. Give them a call, get on their book. It's worth your time.
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C
Just remember, winners shoot winnings.
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A
With that being said, let's get back to the show. So, Ricky, what are we doing today with Mike?
- [01:18]
C
We're gonna do an episode about Mike Jordan, which is Mike's passed away. Mike was a good friend of mine also, but one of Mike Hampton's best friends. And so Mike's gonna give us just kind of the background of their relationship and also what Mike Jordan meant to the shooting industry. For everybody out there that doesn't know, he was very, very well known for Winchester, you know, but just he was the greatest industry shooter of all time.
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A
Yeah. I mean, I looked up to Mike my whole shooting career, and we really wanted to have him on the show.
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C
Absolutely.
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A
Towards the end, it wasn't something we could get. Unfortunately, trap talk wasn't around long enough to get him in. But he. I mean, he was just a great guy. And I remember. We'll talk about it. But I remember so many shoot offs that I got to see and even some shoot offs that I was in, it was just like, wow, this is a guy that represents trout. The way it's Supposed to be done, but we want to hear your side. You're his best friend. I mean you spent all the world. Tell us from the beginning about Mr. Jordan.
- [02:24]
B
Well, it goes back over 50 years and I first met Mike at the Edwardsville Gun Club. I see a guy out there on 22 yards, non registered chute, holding the gun straight, parallel with the ground and pull boom, pull boom. Black, smoking everything. Who is that guy? Said well he works over Winchester and he's going to start shooting registered targets. At that time I was from on the central handicap committee for the ATA and I watched him shoot a couple of traps and I said he's not going to be shooting 22 yards when he starts raining. I said he's all ready. They said well he shoots a couple of nights a week over at Olin, over at Olin Club. And I said he knows how to handle a gun and he's black smoking those targets. And so when he come off the line, I introduced myself and I said I hear you're going to start shooting registered targets. And he said yes, I think I'll start this year. And so I said well don't get used to the 22 yard line because you're going to go back to 25 and that'll be your starting point. So he was a little put out about that. But within a month or two we started shooting together and we shot together for 50 years and traveled the country. We hunted, fished, shot live birds. His career he used to the pull boom, pull boom. He was always a handicap shooter. Yep, could always break handicap. I would occasionally break a respectable score and handicap but he was always, but he shot so fast that if he broke 97 when he started, if he broke 97 singles, that was a great score for him.
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C
It's a big day. It's a big day.
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A
I know some people would like that.
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C
That's a good day for his application.
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B
It didn't bother him, it didn't bother him at all because he, he was interested in handicap. That's where, that's where the money was at that time and that's what he was interested in. And so through the years, 20 years later, when he got a little older, he slowed down just a little bit and he started breaking all the singles. But he, we, we started out hunting together, fishing together and I taught school for 10 years while I was shooting and I was on the Illinois Trap Shooting association on the board and did quite a bit of classification for the ATA back then. And we hunted, fished, shot together. And when I teach in school, I had all summer off to go to the Missouri State shoot, Indiana State shoot, Ohio State, we always went to Ohio. And because we're getting ready for the grand. And Mike was always a competitive shooter. Always. Later on, a friend of ours had a heart attack. And at that time had a Winchester distributorship. And we purchased. The two of us purchased Drury and Weed in Alton. And at that time, we flipped a coin to see who was a good guy and who was a bad guy. And of course, I lost. He was always the good guy and I had to be the bad guy most of the time. It was natural.
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C
I was just saying that was natural.
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A
I also lost the coin flip over here.
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C
He's always the bad guy.
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A
I'm the bad guy. Zach's fault. That's okay.
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B
I have to be the bad guy. When classifying people, I would see people out there, look at a thousand target review. If they couldn't break 95 in the singles, I wasn't too concerned about them. But when they went to breaking 98s, 99s and wanted to shoot at 19 or 20 yards, that was a no, no for me. And they said, well, Hampton did it again. But Mike would always help anybody, anywhere, anytime. Didn't make any difference what ammunition they shot, what guns. He always traveled around with almost like a ten piece band of tools, parts, everything. He was always willing to help everybody. Was one of the nicest guys that ever shot Clay Target by far. Never, never was in an argument. He called on me a couple of times to do some of his work. Dirty work first.
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A
Go handle it, Hampton.
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C
Well, and one of the things, you know, with Jordan, you know, I called him the original MJ because I first met him, you know, I met actually him and his son Tyler years ago. And it was. I was probably 14, 15 years old. And, you know, they introduced me, you know, and I honestly, I met him through Frank Copy and Leo. You know, this is Mike Jordan. I'm like, mike? I'm like, wait a second. Yeah, he's original. So I remember telling Trey, my oldest son, you know, like, hey, I'm introduce you to Michael Jordan. And he's like, really? What? He come to me, he goes, dad, that's not Michael Jordan. No, that's white. Yeah, but he is original mj. And it was them old reps, you know, himself, Amerigo Pagniroli, you know, you remember Jerry Lambert?
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B
Yeah, you know, Yeah.
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C
I mean, these. And Jerry was a Winchester rep also. But Mike, you know, moving on to his. That the Winchester, I mean, he was the main guy behind the super handicap when it came out. And I remember shooting some of the first ones that, I mean, they kicked the crap out of you.
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A
They hit both things.
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C
Yeah, hit the target good and it also hit you good. So you knew to keep your head down. But he was so, you know, the influence on just ammunition and his ability, how smart he was, talking to him about that stuff. And like you said, it didn't matter what you shot. And back then it didn't, you know, everybody, you know, it was. It was just a different group of guys, you know, back then. And Mike was just one of those good guys. I mean, he just had so much influence on the shooting world.
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A
He was, he was a great guy. And to circle back, you said you watched him the first time, he was a quick shot. And you spent the last 50 years shooting with him in his style and in his game. You know, if you could, I'm sure you talked with him about it. What was he doing and what was he trying to do to become a great handicap shooter? Did he share that with you? Like hold points and, and what he was focusing on to break those big scores?
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B
He, he was the. When, when he started, he needed some money to go shoot. This was before he was just in R and D, research and development in Winchester and working at the plant and started out shooting. So he would go to two or three derbies a week. And like I said, he was always great in handicapped. And he was a little weak in the singles early on. He would break 48, 49, very rarely a 50. But in the derbies, he was the king of the derby shooters in all of Southern Illinois. Three or four nights a week. When he was at the shoot, everybody else was shooting for seconds. And it was not unusual for him to break 23 singles, go to the 23 yard line and break 25 for a 48. If he broke 49, it'd be 24 from singles and 25 from handicap. He was just that good of a game.
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A
He couldn't get the 50, couldn't run the 16. He couldn't always ran the back box. But the first box was a little rough.
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B
It was very rarely, but back then was really. It was a different game than what it is today. When you have handset machines and you've got young boys that's out there for 10 or 12 hours and you've got the puller that's out there for 10 or 12 hours, that's got to pull score, call the target, everything. If you got 95, good pull pulls. You had a great day.
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C
Yes.
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B
If you started moving your gun a little bit as you hollered pull, that was the death. That was a lost target. But he could do that. And in research and development, he looked at all of the ammunitions. He looked at how to make Winchester better. He knew what percentage. He knew the best. He developed. He talked Winchester in the first, which was the first original super target was the paper. Yes, it was Winchester paper loads. That was the handicap loads. And then later on it was the charcoal kicking handicap. Kicking handicap, load the mule. But he was part of all of that. He knew more ballistics than almost anybody in the industry. He could tell you feet per second, not just shot shell, but rifle, center fire, rim fire pistol. Later on, after he was in that and he was in shooting promotion for several years, then he went and took care of the sports writers.
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C
Yes.
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B
And the sports riders love to go on hunting trips with Mike Jordan because they sit around in the evening and say, what does this load do? What does that load do? They didn't know anything about the load, but they listened to Mike Jordan and they didn't have to do any homework. So that was a big plus for Winchester at that time. And Mike took him on a lot of hunting trips, but was very, very astute in ballistics.
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C
But what you find very rare nowadays to find a shooter of. And you're not going to of Mike Jordan's caliber because he was one of the top shooters even in the open, he could compete. Okay. And to know the ballistics on stuff, I mean, I know a little bit about it, and that's from being like at the Fiocchi factory, talking to the people that know and getting that information to know because you got, I have students or stuff that hey, what's with this? And I'll go find out. Now, you didn't have to do that with Mike Jordan.
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A
He just knew it all.
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C
You could go up to him and say, hey, this shell right here, what is me? Said, well, it's because of this.
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A
Then you knew when he was designing that super handicapped shell, how much conversations did you guys have about that as best friends? Or did he have to keep it kind of hush hush?
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B
No, he didn't have to keep it hush up, but I just wanted to shoot. He wanted the technical part of it. He wanted to know exactly why it did this and what that. I didn't care.
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A
We've got a lot of people on the show that want the technical side and there's a lot of people that.
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C
Just like that shoot Ass unlike Mike, I just want to go full bank. Hey, charter bro.
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B
We're good. That's right. There's a big ball of black smoke. That's good enough for me. And let's go on. He was so technical about his gun, the trigger. He was one of the first ones that. With the release triggers and, you know, and he had to have it just exactly. And he knew all of the function of it and exactly what he wanted it to do. And I just wanted to go pull the trigger.
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A
And he shot a rather high gun at the time. Right. The point of impact that he was shooting was rather high on his sights. Towards the end it was.
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B
Yeah, cranked up.
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C
Right.
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B
Not. Not like a lot of them do today. I mean, you know, it wasn't a pattern high, but I would say 70, 30 is what he liked to shoot.
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A
Okay, so not as high as I thought. I thought he shot a little higher than that.
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C
No, he's about what I. 70, 30, 80, 20.
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A
Yeah, you know, that's release.
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C
Oh, yeah.
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B
He had. I mean, you know, the. The stories. The stories he had. He shot. Later on, he shot Parazis. And when he went to the release triggers, first thing, he shot at Browning Broadway. Of course, everybody wants to start with the release pull. When you start flinching, you do the release pull. And it wasn't long before his mind said, wait a minute, I'm pulling the trigger on the second shot. I can't do that. So he goes to double releases and we go to the state chute. And he's got the Perazzi that he can take the triggers in and out, which was a big advantage way back when. And somebody had a double release for the Perotzzi. That was an extra trigger for him. And he thought. I said it was quite a bit of money that he didn't want to spend, but he said, I need a backup. So we get to the doubles championship. Mike is 80 straight. The gun starts doubling. Wasn't any problem. He turned around and walked back to the truck. He had his spare double release triggers. He put that in his gun that he had tried, went out there, broke the next two pair. I'm starting to get nervous. He's starting to get a little nervous. And that trigger started doubling.
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A
Oh, no.
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B
Now he couldn't shoot the gun. He had 10 or 12 shots to 10 or 12 targets to shoot, and he couldn't shoot the gun that he was straight with. So he started to walk back to the car to get another gun. We're about at the 27 yard line. And of course, the doubles was the end of the day and the trap pullers had to pile their empty holes up. And there's a pile this high of empty holes. And as he walks by that smoke's coming out of his ears. He dropped, kicked all of those holes on his way to the car to get another gun. And the squad started laughing and said, no, we can't say anything. Get back. We can't do nothing. Well, he ended up missing a couple and losing the doubles championship. But the drop kicking the holes was a lot better story. Okay, you're 80 straight. Big deal.
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C
But that's what they used to shoot back then. A lot of people don't understand as doubles now we shoot, you know, five pair per post, 50 and the next 50. It used to be 20, 30, 20, 30 or 30, 20, 30, 20. Yeah. I remember the first time I went and shot at the grand in Vandalia. I go out and I hadn't shot at our local club. We had shot 50. Well, I get to the Grand, I'm like, what are they doing? Four traps. And that's what it was. And I remember because I actually, at my first grant, I was runner up in the class double sub junior, and I won the sub Junior Junior doubles championship. But it was weird going out there like only three pairs. But to break a hundred back then was a lot tougher, I think so.
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A
Because you have to walk to four different boxes.
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C
Four different doubles.
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A
Yeah, that just seems more difficult.
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B
Four different, four different fields, four different setters, four different pullers. And if you got, I mean, the targets would be perfect to perfect. And then it'd be this way or it would be that way. If you got through some well set and called when you come. It was a miracle. It was a miracle.
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C
That's what a lot of people don't understand is back then is, is the issue of, you know, that's why we, I always say, you know, oh, you know, nice job. You know, the polar did a good job. And people kind of look at me now and they're like, oh, I guess score. Because all they do is score. They don't have. And some people think, well, this is hard. I'm like, you think this is hard? You should have to. Especially for a squad like ours that goes so fast.
- [19:36]
A
Oh yeah. To be, to think about it to now, I mean, in most of the scores, I don't mean to badmouth anybody, but most of them are so. They're so out of it where they're just, they can't even barely Flip the button and pay attention to what's happening in the day. And to think what they had to do back in the day, they had.
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C
To pull, they had to score.
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B
They had to, you know, read it.
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A
Out, all of that at once. And they had to be sharp because if you weren't.
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C
If you weren't.
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A
And, you know, the abdomen, I mean, we've seen them do the adding and the fingers come out every time. And we're like, you know, that's why.
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C
I always go up. And I'm like, oh, yeah, 20, 24, 22.
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B
Oh, yeah.
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C
And they're like, are you sure? And I'm like, yeah, I'm good. We don't want to be out here.
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A
For any young people listening. Work on your math. We don't want. I don't want to see with a calculator or an iPhone when we're trying to figure out a 22 in my handicap score. Okay? It's three losses.
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C
Three off of 25 is 22.
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B
Move on. Yes, yes. And we're hoping that you improve in that Andy gap. I'm trying.
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C
We're trying to get it. He's doing good at the singles lately, folks. He is.
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A
He.
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C
He is doing good at singles. Handicapped.
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B
We're still.
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C
That's a work in progress.
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A
A couple lessons.
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B
I'm working on it.
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C
If you see me carrying around a bunch of Remington shells. Zach's been taking lessons.
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B
I'm doing all right. Yeah. In. In 1981.
- [20:49]
A
All right, trap talk listeners, let's take a couple seconds and thank a couple more sponsors. First of all, Remington's been with us since day one. I've been shooting these shells since 2007. I shoot the Nitro 27 from the 27 yard line. Ounce and eight, seven and a half and STS, ounce and eighth eights for singles and doubles. They've worked great for me as they do a lot of top shooters all around the country. Give them a try. Don't forget the gun club line when you're practicing and you're wanting to save a little bit of money.
- [21:17]
C
We'd also like to thank another sponsor, Outlaw engineering. Randy Freston, R2. I've known Randy since 1988. They do engineering survey and drafting, GIS, civil structural land development, wetland permitting. They do.
- [21:33]
A
And they're friends of trap shooters. I mean, they're trap shooting family. They've been in the ATA forever. His dad's been involved. They're involved. They're beautiful family. They're great people. And we just love that they listen to the show. And we love that they support trap talk.
- [21:45]
C
Yeah. His dad was past president 1989. So I really want to thank those guys for the support. It. Really appreciate it here at trap.
- [21:53]
A
Hey, trap talk listeners, we got to take a real quick break. And we got to thank Ron Prescott from mid state precious metals for everything they do for the trap shooting community coast to coast for all your gold and silver buying needs. And on top of that new announcement, they're a sponsor of the 126 grand American.
- [22:08]
C
Finally, he said it right, folks. Grand american. Yeah. Ron is a great guy. He's a sponsor of the back fence shootout at Nevada state shoot and Ohio state shoot shoot. And also we got our gold for our trap talk event at Nevada state shoot and the 77th annual Nevada State chute. They bought all theirs from it. 680 ounces of silver to be exact. Folks, you're missing out if you're not there.
- [22:32]
A
That's a lot of silver. And honestly, if you're not buying from Ron, you're probably overpaying. So whether you're buying it for your gun clubs or your shoots or for your personal use, you got to give them a try because they're big supporters of the trap shooting nation. So it's awesome. With that being said, let's get back to the show.
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B
I was fortunate enough to break 100 in the double. There was five at the Grand American. Five shooters that broke a hundred in the double. And that's how hard it was back then. And when I say that it. It wasn't it, I mean, it didn't make any difference. Singles handicap or whatever. If you got. You went to four traps, you shot 25 each. And. And for a 200 bird, you. You were shooting eight traps. Yeah. You didn't shoot the same traps. No.
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C
You always down them over. Now in 81, Mike, when. Because you won the doubles that year, right?
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B
Yeah.
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C
So how many did you shoot in the shoot off, though? Was it a 50 bird shoot off or was it the still the 20 like we do today?
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B
It was still the 20.
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C
20.
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B
There was Larry Russo, Ray Stafford.
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C
Yep.
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B
In 1981, Ray Stafford had several records.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Still has probably a lot of records. But he was breaking targets.
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C
Oh, yeah.
- [23:47]
B
Like you wouldn't believe. And he was. He. He had a hundred. Larry Russo had 100, I had the hundred. There was Chris bishop had, I think 100, and somebody else had 100. But the first 22 of them fell out, and it was Ray and Larry.
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C
And I. Oh, okay.
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B
So. So the next 20, Larry missed one and then it was down to two of us with 40 straight. And at that time nobody had ever broke 60 straight. And we go out and Ray was always the lead off man in his squad. But it happened in the shoot off that I was lead off and I the only post that I never wanted to shoot was post one or lead off. Okay, I always told them when I was shooting post four or five, if I shoot post five only, I'm gonna lead off. I'm gonna be the only one on the squad, but I'm leading off. I, Ray and I were friends. I said to Ray, I said, ray, I know you like us lead off. I would bow to you leading off if you'd like to lead off this last round. He smiled and said he knew I hated it. And he said, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry you have to lead off. I broke the first pair and he missed the second bird on the first pair.
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A
You got in his head. Little reverse psychology on stab ra. That's a gaming move right there.
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B
The next pair, I shot the first bird and I put the saddle on that second bird and rode it almost to the ground and clinked it in half. And everybody was oohing and ah, like I wasn't going to shoot. And then I did shoot and from that time, Ray looked at me, kind of smiled and he black smoked the next pair and the rest of them, and the rest of them I shot a little faster than normal and at that time broke the only 60 and was very, very fortunate to beat those.
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C
Guys in the shoot for the grand American double.
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A
So, I mean, you got the ring on, right? Give them a little bling the camera.
- [26:00]
C
Show them what you got. Hey, I'm lacking, I'm lacking.
- [26:08]
B
When I see Ray several times a year, the first time I see him, I always put my hand up and say, this is one of them that you didn't win.
- [26:19]
C
What a sweet guy.
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A
Why he was the bad guy, I don't know.
- [26:23]
C
Yeah, exactly, we don't. Well, and that is crazy though, to be no one had ever been 60 straight because I know years later and I don't remember what year it would have been. 94, maybe 5ish. Sean, Holly and I ran 100 and then there was 11 of us. And after like a hundred, it was down to Sean and I and we ended up going another hundred. And I think Ray and someone else had the records. Like 120, they told us. Well, we went 200 in the shoot off and then we carried over. Sean broke another 100. I went. I went dead, lost, dead loss on the first two pairs and broke 98. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna win that.
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B
Going.
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C
Sean had another 100. I was like, okay, next time I'm keeping you on the shoot off. You were right. Yeah, exactly. But that is crazy to think. You know, back then.
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B
Back then, 81, the 60 was the most anybody ever broke. But again, you know, at the end of the night, and the kids, you got. And the targets of this and this and this, and it wasn't full. Boom, boom, boom. You know what?
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C
Like today's doubles where. With the pat trap. Because I remember shooting on the old handset Winchesters you would get. If you got a guy, knew what he was doing. And one of them was Dean Bright. And I just saw Dean, but you saw him at Iowa last week. You know, Dean used to set a good doubles target. And if you got to a place and you got a shoot on his, you could tell because then you could like, okay, I can pick up the pace a little bit versus I gotta pick them out. And that's the difference. Versus now on the pat traps, they're more consistent and they're usually in the right spot. As long as the weather's not.
- [27:56]
B
Mike's doubles was not nearly the skill level that he had in the handicap. Yeah, but because it was just another game back then, it would. There wasn't less than half the people would shoot doubles, and all the people would shoot handicap all the time. But when it got to doubles, half the people would shoot. It wasn't like it is today with all the people shooting the doubles, but he got to where he could shoot them. Shoot them good. But he had a. Again, he was very technical, and everything had to go through here before it got down to the air. And he started developing a problem where when he mounted the gun, he couldn't set the trigger without letting it go. And we'd go boom before he could say pull. And so he developed a method where the gun was broken open. He would set the trigger. If he let it go, it didn't, and nothing would happen. But then when he finally got it set, he would close the gun on his way up and it would already be set. And he worked through that whole problem. And then in the later years, it started working with him as a problem that he was shooting a Super X1. And when the problem first started. But he'd go ba boom. And he'd look over at me. The first time it did that and he said that doubled. And I said, wait a minute. I said an over and under doubles, but an automatic cannot double. Hey, it doubles.
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C
That was. Hey, that was a good one.
- [29:51]
B
Yeah, I had. You had to put a stop on that. Oh, no, no, no, I didn't double. It didn't double. Well, he thought there was something wrong with the trigger. And of course it wasn't. It was Mike. And again, he had to figure out a way that he could do all of that without doubling.
- [30:12]
C
Well, didn't he go to a pump gun then too?
- [30:15]
B
He shot an 870 release trigger. And what he would do, he would load the gun, put the second shell in, then he would open the gun a little bit, set the trigger down here because it couldn't go off no matter what he was doing with his finger. And as he brought it up, he would close it. But can you imagine letting go, pulling it back as it's, as it's coming forward? You're setting it, you're not waiting until it gets back to set because it can't go off back here.
- [30:48]
C
Yeah, that's a process. Well, he broke a.
- [30:50]
B
And he broke 100 with.
- [30:53]
C
Was crazy because I remember he. He had I.
- [30:56]
A
Was it Illinois or. Where was that? Where did he break that hundred? Do you remember? It might have been a great.
- [31:03]
C
I think it was at Illinois State.
- [31:04]
B
I'm gonna stay with the state. With the state, some states.
- [31:07]
C
Because I remember, you know, you'd see him and I'm like, mj, you. You know, he said, I ain't shooting doubles and this. And then all of a sudden, boom, he got that 870 and he said, well, I think I'm moving.
- [31:17]
A
This wasn't long ago because I remember. I think I was there that day because everybody's like, did you hear what MJ did?
- [31:24]
C
I'm like, well, because the person 100 doubles, if they.
- [31:27]
A
The 870. I mean, it's just. It's unheard of.
- [31:30]
C
No, and especially with the 870, because one of the first people to ever break 100 end doubles at the grand was Rudy etchen with the 870. So now we're fast forwarding 60 years or more and MJ's out there shooting an 870 that I've tried to shoot one at doubles before. I don't know how the people. I'm like, you're just so. There's so much going on.
- [31:54]
B
Way too much.
- [31:55]
C
No chance.
- [31:56]
A
No, no, no, no. I mean 12 870.
- [32:02]
C
To do that with the 870. And especially with all the stuff because he. And I think a lot of that stuff with the not being able to set the trigger or letting it go off was. He was so technical.
- [32:13]
B
Absolutely.
- [32:14]
C
That his brain was causing all that.
- [32:16]
B
Oh, it was always, it was always, it was always up here because everything had to be just technical. Just right. Just right. Just right. And. But the Super X was the gun that he started really. When we started shooting live birds, the live birds, I was with him also. In 1981, we went to Madrid, Spain, to the world Live Bird Championship and he was shooting good. And most of the races were missing out or missed two in your out. It wasn't a 25 bird race or a 30 bird race that however many you broke, however many you killed out of 30 or 25, it was anytime you miss one, you're done. And in Madrid they had four rings and when you lined up, you lined up to shoot one at each one of them. And if you were straight, all the people were straight. Everybody that shot their four are Delhi miss. Then you go back again and again. And the event before the world championship is always the championship of the country and it's a two bird myths and you're out. But he broke 30 straight and went into a shoot off and ended up breaking. Ended up killing 41 straight and winning the championship of Spain. The only time I ever saw him cry was when he got up on the podium and they raised the American flag and played the national anthem. I saw tears in his eyes and it was very special for.
- [34:09]
C
Well, that's awesome.
- [34:10]
B
Yeah, he was one of. I would say he was at least in the top five live bird shooters for almost 10 years. We shot together for live birds for about 10 years. But he had. There was a lot of, lot of experiences and he wouldn't. He would go to a shoot and if he shot bad for a couple of days, he would. We used to like our beer in the evenings and imagine that trap shooter. But we would. He was a salt when we got into the beer and I was a pepper. If he said up, I said down. If he said right, I said left. But we couldn't agree. We were best friends and couldn't agree on too much. But when we, when we got into the sauce, he was. He would go to a shoot and say, I'm not drinking. I'm. I'm here. I'm here to break all these targets and I want to be ready and I want to. And about three days into the shoot, when he hadn't shot very well, that evening he made up for the other two or three nights. And then the next day he wouldn't feel good and break most all the targets.
- [35:38]
A
All right, trap dock listeners, we got to take a real quick break. And I've got something that I'm so excited to announce. Trap Shooting USA has now become the official magazine of the trap talk podcast.
- [35:48]
C
No, it's not only Traption usa, now it's Wing and Clay Life, Lady Outdoor lifestyles and Clay Shooting usa.
- [35:55]
A
I'm just really excited because they make such a high quality magazine. I mean, if you guys haven't had these magazines and you actually get to touch them in your hands, they've got really thick paper, they're really glossy, and they keep it really cool. I mean, I just love it.
- [36:08]
C
The traveling gunsmith. And then in this newest episode, we have. Oh, man, look at.
- [36:13]
B
Look at those.
- [36:14]
A
Look at those handsome guys. I love this.
- [36:16]
B
I love it.
- [36:17]
A
I love it.
- [36:18]
C
All right, folks, we need to take a quick second and get to a new show sponsor, Big Red Motorsports. Big Red, they're personal friends of mine, Jason and George Lee, and they're also a personal sponsor of mine.
- [36:29]
A
Now, I'll say this, Ricky looked great driving around in that side by. I got some free rides down at Tucson, the autumn grand. I think it's awesome that they deliver all across the country. And obviously they love trap shooters. They love trap shooting, and they're doing a great job.
- [36:42]
C
Listen, they got Can Am, Kawasaki CF Moto Triton trailers. Hit them up. We'll take care of you guys. With that being said, let's get to.
- [36:51]
B
The show for the next two or three days.
- [36:55]
A
But that was that method before.
- [36:56]
C
We have. That's work sometimes it doesn't work all the time.
- [37:01]
B
When you think about it and think about it and you're not breaking a good. All of a sudden when you're not thinking, you're just thinking, let me get through, Let me get through.
- [37:08]
C
Start breaking some more targets. We have a friend like that. His name is Justin Debris.
- [37:13]
A
Yeah, it's amazing, though, how much we talk about the mental game on the show every day. And it's one of those things where if you get too wrapped up in your head, you have to relax somehow and, like, get away from it. And sometimes just relaxing and having fun and having a cocktail or something like that can push it into the background a little bit versus, you know, you're just so wired tight. You're like, I got to shoot these scores. I got to break this. I got to get these points. I Gotta, it's just too much. I mean, it's, it's too much to wrap your head.
- [37:40]
C
You want to have fun.
- [37:41]
A
Yeah.
- [37:41]
C
And that is the thing back in the day, you know, and obviously back in, you know, in the 80s and 90s, when I first started shooting in the 80s, you got to meet all, you know, the raps. Because it was a lot different back then than what is today. You know, there was reps at every big shoot, you know, from Federal, Winchester, Remington, and it was always usually the same guys. You know, I run into, you know, one of the Browning guys today that used to be a rep 30 years ago, he's like, yeah, they hire us old time retired guys to come do some of these events. But it is, it's a different group of guys. And back then, you know, you shop and then at night had a few cocktails, had a good time, because that's what it was about getting together and having, having a good time.
- [38:21]
B
It was all about getting together with friends, having a nice dinner, having a few drinks, having a good time, and then get up the next morning and go back to do your thing.
- [38:31]
A
So I want to speak a little bit on the industry because a lot of people now haven't heard of industry class. It doesn't really exist anymore. I mean, I haven't seen any industry. So tell the people listening what the difference was between industry shooters and everyone else and how they separated it and, and how he dominated in that class.
- [38:51]
B
For years in the industry back then. I started in 1964. 60 years ago. Yeah. This is my 63rd grand American. But back then the industry people came to the chute, they helped with the scoreboard, they, it was all manual done and they worked the scoreboards, they worked shoot offs. It was completely different than it is now. But the industry class, because they were workers, they developed a class that was industry as it developed. With that, there was some good shooters that came along. And when Mike was working at Winchester, when he was working in research and development and all of that, he was an open shooter and winning a lot of open. But when he went into shooting promotion, then he went into the industry class. When I went down as executive director of the National Skeet Shooting association and later the Sporting Clades, I, I went into industry because the expenses of the shoot was paid by the association. So we were shooting industry all the time. But he shot industry probably until for 10 or 12 years before they dissolved industry class because there wasn't that many of them. But when I say he dominated the industry class when we shot together as industry. When we finished whatever event it was, most of the time, he was going to go get the trophy. Very occasionally after 81, I don't know what year it was that I was shooting industry, but I was fortunate enough to break another hundred in the doubles, on the doubles championship. And that happened to be the year that Nora Martin won the doubles. And she. That had been 93 or 4, whatever that was. She was. And she and I, we knew each other. And she was bragging, not bragging. Somebody was saying, did you beat all the guys? Yeah, I beat all of them that year. And I said, nora, hold on, hold on. You beat all the guys, but one guy you didn't beat, did he break 100? I said, yes, I did.
- [41:37]
C
But, yeah, industry. So people don't know industry back then. No matter if you broke a 200, 100 in the doubles, or even 100 in the handicap, no matter what event it was, you couldn't shoot off for the championship. So back then, if the grand, if you broke 100 grand American handicap, you couldn't win a grand ring. You'd win just industry.
- [41:57]
B
No money.
- [41:58]
C
No money.
- [41:58]
B
You just shot for targets. Just targets. Awards, industry awards and glory.
- [42:05]
A
And were they. Was the thought behind that, that these guys, because they did it all the time or had the payroll? They were all the time. They were a little better than the everybody else. And that's why they hadn't separated. Or was it more just separated because of the free targets?
- [42:20]
B
I. I think they separated it as a thank you. Yeah, for the industry that was doing a lot of work. That was working.
- [42:28]
C
So they had their own category.
- [42:30]
B
They had their own category because there.
- [42:31]
C
Were some that couldn't compete, like mj. There was you, mj, Devin Harris.
- [42:36]
B
Devin Harris. Devin.
- [42:38]
C
Usually. Because Devin always said, because back then I was shooting for Federal, you know, and, and Devin would say MJ broke another two hundreds, or MJ broke a 99 in the handicap, you know, or something. You know, Devin might break like a 97. He'd be like, okay, MJB. But. And that was the differences back then. So they had their own category then later on, and that dissolved. It's been. It was before 2000, I think, that dissolved. It was in the 90s, if I remember right.
- [43:03]
B
I. I'm not sure.
- [43:04]
C
I can't remember.
- [43:05]
B
But it just went away. It just went away. We used to, we used to go by if we knew we had a higher score than Devin. And I used to say, I used to come by and say, devin, you're still the best left handed, one eyed industry shooter on the ground.
- [43:25]
C
You got that, you got that handled, bud. Well, and it's funny is that. And that. So now fast forward years later when Bill Martin, you know, was giving away the money here at the grand for the shootout and Devin won the hundred thousand dollars.
- [43:42]
B
He won and he won.
- [43:43]
C
And there was, you know, I know he was worried at the time. He's like, God, I don't know, I've had a few people say, you know, federal, you know, is going to tell me I can't accept it. I said, well, there's no industry class anymore, so you can do what you want. It's a totally different deal. And this wasn't a deal that you had to play. This was a deal that you showed up, you shot, you got the shoot off. This is what you won't. I said, but if you can't accept the money, I'll be more than gracious to take it for you. You gotta find a home for it. That's right. I did get a little bit of his money because he bought my yellow truck that year for his daughter. So I got a little bit of.
- [44:18]
A
That, little bit of that cage.
- [44:19]
B
But Mike was always, he was always friends, he would talk to anybody. He was very well known. It doesn't make any difference if it was sports writers, if it was shooters, if it was hunters, it didn't make any difference on any of it. He was always the, the true gentleman. Yeah, he, nobody could, nobody could match that with him. And on top of his great shooting, he was one of a kind.
- [44:53]
A
Yeah, sure he was. And like the one thing that I remembered most about him and he's just a great guy, but one of the first times I met him and I believe he did shoot for Remington for a while there towards the end. He shot Remington for a while.
- [45:06]
C
Yeah.
- [45:07]
B
At the, at the US Open when they had it here, we, when we traveled. Like I said, we were salt and pepper when we traveled. I had to have the air conditioner turned down to 65 and it had to be cold in the room. And he traveled with electric blanket and we traveled all summer long and he'd have electric blanket and have it hooked up to stay warm. And we come down, but we always got a room with two beds. And he always, first thing he did was put that electric blanket out. Well, we came down here to shoot the US Open and it was, I believe it. I'm pretty sure it was still industry that at that time, but we were going to shoot the US Open Here we're staying at the Holiday Inn. Normally, again, I get up before daylight, shower, shave, I'm out of the bathroom. I'm getting him up. Come on, it's time to get up. We got to go. We got to go. And he would mope around. Well, this time, the very first day we were here, he goes in and takes a quick shower, and I go in and take a shower. And while I'm taking shower, he's putting his clothes on and I come out and he's got a green hat, a green shirt, and it's all Remington. Of course, he hadn't said one word to me about. Okay, I'm shooting for Remington now. I'm making notes on this and I'm taking care of that. But he shot for a few years for Remington and again, which was a great.
- [46:44]
A
Well, I remember it specifically because I was a newer shooter and I'd shot Remington's and then it was at the spring grand. And I don't know if it was 2006. 2006 to 2010, somewhere in that zone because I was pretty young. But he was out there in that shoot off with the 2002. And I remember him going back and he actually, because he flew in, I believe he actually ran out of light shells. All right, Trap talk listeners, we got to take a quick break and we got to welcome a new sponsor to the show, RGS bore stripper. It's a great product, Ricky. Tell them how they can find it.
- [47:15]
C
Go to their website, rgsguncleaner.com you can get the 18 ounce bottle, free shipping. 28 ounce bottle. And you get the 2 ounce travel bottle and it's free shipping also. Or just get the little two ounce bottle for travel.
- [47:29]
A
Yeah, they sent me some of this product and I used it on my Krakoff choke tubes the other day. And it got the plastic out like in a minute. And it was super cool and super good. So if you like cleaning your gun, you like eliminating plastic, and you like shiny bores, give them a try. For sure. Thank you so much for supporting the show.
- [47:43]
C
Yeah, we'd really like to thank John Weber, the owner, for the support. He's doing an awesome job.
- [47:48]
A
Yeah, we really want to thank John. We appreciate the support of the show. Anybody that supports trap talk, you guys need to support them and get this stuff because it's awesome. All right, folks, we got to take a real quick break and acknowledge the official target of the ATA White flyer. They've been sponsoring us since the beginning and they make a great target what do you think, Rick?
- [48:06]
C
It's the best target in the ata. Shout out to everybody there, all the reps, you know, Bill Daniels, Josh Taylor, Nick Arnold, Robert Crow, everything they do for the sport and all the shoots.
- [48:17]
A
Really appreciate it. They're always there, they're always trying to make a better target and they're always supporting the game that we love so much. But hey, Trop Talk listeners, let's take a quick second to thank a couple more amazing sponsors. Sos, Clays Shoot management, they're doing a fantastic job. I love the app. I love being able to see everything on my phone instantaneously. It's freaking awesome. Rick, what do you think?
- [48:37]
C
Yeah, Greg Pink and his group over there, I mean, they've got majority of the satellite grands, majority the state shoots. I think it's 40 plus state shoots they're doing. But the app, honestly, we were doing a little beta testing with that at the spring grand. It's awesome. You can see your squad if they paid, you know, you can see your options, your payouts, the whole works at your fingertips. Great deal.
- [48:58]
A
They're just. Ricky, how much money he made before he even got off the line, he was like, hey, I'm buying lunch. I'm like, yeah, good job. We're good to go. We also got gun and trophy insurance. I mean, they're the best in the business. I, I know they're, they're great price. Ricky, you're familiar with them, right?
- [49:14]
C
Yeah. Cole and Larry Cushman, been long time supporters of myself and, and I've been a supporter of them and you know, especially with my college team, you know, we require insurance. It's so fast and easy to sign up and get your insurance and literally 10 minutes you can have your guns insured. And they're just great. They're great to deal with. Like I said, you can do your trophies also, you know, your, your wildlife, animals and that such, and your guns.
- [49:42]
A
It's just a great, it's always good when you're traveling around to have that peace of mind, to know that you don't have to worry about losing your stuff forever. And these are expensive things, especially when you got those Craig Offs, you got to keep them insured. So with that being said, let's get.
- [49:54]
C
Back to the show.
- [49:55]
A
And at the end of it, he was shooting nitros and these, these, I can't, I'll never forget it because it was under the lights, these big old ink clouds that he was laying on there with those nitros because he was all out of the light FCS's. And he, I, I, I would say he ended up winning it. I, I remember him winning, winning it, but it was just incredible because he was just, like I said, I couldn't believe it because I would have been like, oh, I would go get, like, I'm this many straight, this big of a championship. I got to get exactly the shells that I'm using.
- [50:24]
C
He's just like, threw those in, was blowing them up, acted like nothing was wrong. MJ could shoot. I shot with him always at Carmichael's old club in Vegas. He shot with us a couple times. And I'll never forget one time out there shooting, and it was cold. You know, you never knew. Weather be great. And he gets, we get in the car, we're sitting there for a minute waiting on the trap, and I'm like, yeah, I'm getting out. He's like, no, I'm sitting in there. I'm like, it's cold. You might want to get out, get acclimated. It's fine. And he was only down one or two going to the last box, and I was down like three or four. And I run the last box, and he broke like 19 or 20. He was out, he was shaking. Well, what happened is he warmed up, then he came out. And it's one of the worst things I tell people when you're shooting the cold, just stay acclimated to it. Don't. It's like in the heat, you go jump at an air conditioner. Same deal. You come out, you get all weird. And I'll never forget we got done. He goes, I thought all I was wanting to do is get back in that dang car. But this is back in the day when Garrel Christman was still alive, you know, which Gerald and won two clay target championships. And, you know, Leo, we were all shooting together, and Leo would stand out there in a T shirt, you know, and I'm bundled up with a coat and everything, and he'd be on a T shirt. It's not bad. But no, it was always a lot of fun shoot with MJ or just talking to him about anything shooting related. Because if you had a question, and I always think about this today when people, students might ask me something technical, and I'm always like, man, wish you could call N.J. because he'd be the one on any ammo, Ask a question, and he'd give you the answer.
- [52:00]
A
He knew everything. He was honest, he was trustworthy, he was nice to everyone. There wasn't anyone that he wouldn't help. And, you know, hats off to you for having a long relationship with him. I remember just when we had the, you know, we finally did pass. We had the ceremony at the Illinois State shooting, and we recorded that, a little bit of it. I think John might have. Might supply some of that into this video today. But it was. You did such a good job doing that, and that was hard. And then they had his squad go out and do the salute and shot the targets. I know Lauren was out there and a few others, and it was just. I couldn't believe how many people showed up for that. I mean, just everybody. And, you know, you lose people and it always hurts to lose people, but there's special people where they draw the crowds. You know, they drew everybody into that. And I mean, there wasn't a person that didn't go in between that event and Illinois, you know, when it happened. And I was like, wow, this is. I mean, just a lot of people that loved him and cared about him and respected him. And, you know, I know that was hard to do, but you did a great job with it. And, you know, it was. It was. It was wonderful. I was glad that I was able to be a part and see it.
- [53:08]
B
Yeah, we. We were. We shot the grand for 40 years together or more. And we had a lot of great times. His, his wife and my wife, when we would head off for three or four days to a state shoot or something, would antique shop.
- [53:30]
C
And so they were breaking more hundreds than you guys, is what you're saying.
- [53:37]
B
Warming those credit cards up, Warm them up.
- [53:39]
A
I like that.
- [53:40]
C
I'll use that. Warming my credit card up.
- [53:44]
B
Getting ready for dinner. Yeah, we made a deal with them. They never got any of our money Shooting trap. But in the live bird shooting, we were. We were partners splitting everything in the live birds. And once we split the money, when we got home, the girls got half of the money and double splits. They. They sent us on pigeon shoots, but they didn't care whether we went to a trap shoot or not. Hey, you can miss those trap chutes. Go on to the pigeons. That is true.
- [54:22]
A
Is there anything else that you want to share today, Mike, before we out of here? Any other stories?
- [54:26]
B
He was. He was a great guy and a great friend. And he was. He was good for the sport. Yes. He made the sport better.
- [54:38]
C
Absolutely.
- [54:39]
A
He really did. And I really appreciate you coming down here today and sharing that story, because like I said, we'd love to have him on the show. But as much as we respected him and as much as he was a legend, we wanted to do this to honor him and. And to let people know of the great original Mike Jordan.
- [54:55]
B
The original. One last story. When he. When he was selected into the hall of Fame, of course, the first thing he did was call me and he said, I want you to introduce me. So I told my staff in San Antonio, I'm going up and I had the honor in Illinois to introduce Michael Jordan into the hall of Fame. And of course, there was a lot of oohs and ahs and the office, and that's all I said. And the next day, one of my staff people said, we got one favor to ask, and we want you to have him sign this basketball. So what I did was I told the story when I. When I was introducing him. I said my. My staff, when they found out that I was introducing the great Michael Jordan into the Illinois hall of Fame, that they had one request for me, and I pulled the basketball out of a sack and pitched it over to him, and I said, they would like your signature. Well, Michael being the typical guy, he had a pen, he wrote Michael Jordan, no bull. No bull. No bull. And pass it and pitch it back to me. So I still have that in my. Oh, dude, my trophies. That is cool.
- [56:31]
A
Well, maybe we'll get a picture of that. I'd love to see that.
- [56:35]
C
That is awesome.
- [56:36]
A
That is awesome.
- [56:36]
B
But that typical Mike Jordan, that is.
- [56:40]
A
He was a great guy for sure. And we appreciate you coming in today. We appreciate you being a supporter of trap talk, obviously, Remy, our big sponsor since day one. You guys have seen our vision and. And really want to give back to the sport and. And help it grow and. And we appreciate you guys for everything you do. You and Jason, both. Jason's.
- [57:00]
C
And yeah, everybody, it's all one big company now with csg.
- [57:04]
B
That's it.
- [57:04]
C
That's right.
- [57:06]
A
So that's good news. And it's good for shooting. And we'll keep making good shells and having a good time and telling more stories, and we got more stuff always coming down the pipe. At trap Talk, We're. We're trying to go. We went 1.0, 2.0, and we're like 3.0. So John's leading us to success. He makes us look good.
- [57:23]
B
The trap talk is. Is something that really is really taken over and everybody is talking about it. Everybody wants to see which version and what version and. And they've kind of got the. The factual and the BS part has kind of come together.
- [57:45]
C
Good guy, bad guy.
- [57:47]
B
Good guy, bad guy.
- [57:48]
A
I lost the coin flip.
- [57:50]
C
Zach's always going to lose the coin flip. He did shoot good in Iowa. I've said it a million times. I'm giving him props.
- [57:55]
A
I did my best.
- [57:56]
B
I did my best.
- [57:57]
A
Well, that being said, we appreciate you tuning in this Friday. We will see you next Friday. Like Share subscribe. Don't be afraid to send us your comment questions. And we're gonna have more of the trap shooting greats on here every Friday. Tune in. We'll see you soon. Thank you for everything.
- [58:11]
C
Thanks, everybody. Good luck.
- [58:13]
A
All right, folks, we got to take another quick break and thank one of our show sponsors, 73 Pointers Ranch, Jonesburg, Missouri. Rick and Carla Burke. Best place in the area to go shoot chuckers and pheasants and have a great time. Rick, we got to get you down there.
- [58:26]
C
Yeah, I need to come in. Hopefully I can do some hunting with you guys and come to your the annual clay shoot in August right after the grand.
- [58:34]
A
It's a lot of fun. It's the Optimist Club charity shoot. They throw a charity shoot. They put it on, and it's wonderful. I think last year they had over 100, 100 entries into it. And it's just a good time.