Trap Talk Ep. 175: Bob Palmer on the Mental Game of Trapshooting

Summary

Trap Talk From The Back Fence

Episode 175: Bob Palmer on the Mental Game of Trapshooting

Released May 8, 2026
Hosts: Zach Nannini (A), Richard "Ricky" Marshall Jr. (C)
Guest: Bob Palmer (B), mental coach, author, CEO of Sports Excel Inc.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the mental game of trapshooting with Bob Palmer, a highly respected mental performance coach, author, and founder of Sports Excel Inc. The conversation focuses on the strategies, mindsets, and techniques that can help shooters break through mental barriers and consistently shoot at their best. Palmer discusses the origins of his passion for mental coaching, the evolution of his unique methods, and actionable steps shooters can take to develop their own high-performance mindset.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Bob Palmer’s Path to Mental Coaching

• Early Experiences:

  • Palmer shares that his curiosity about the mental side began at age 12, noticing that sometimes he played "miraculous games" but couldn't repeat them at will. His quest to repeat those peak performances led him to study sports psychology and ultimately to work as a coach.

    "I was skillful, but it always had this ceiling that I wasn't able to break through. But every once in a while, I did... And I was trying to figure out, how do I do that every time?" (03:52–04:21, B)

• Martial Arts Background:

  • Martial arts training in college solidified his understanding of "the zone" and how anyone can access peak performance with the right approach.

Bob Palmer’s Books and Approach

• Notably, Palmer authored "Mind vs. Target" and the new "Teen vs. Target," both reflecting his systematic approach to mental skills for shooters.
  • "Teen vs. Target" uses a smartphone metaphor to help young shooters understand mindset as apps they can install to help them improve (07:13–08:38, B).
  • Books are written in multiple languages and adapted for both adults and teens.

Mindset, Coaching, and Breaking Through Mental Barriers

• Coaching Approach:

  • Palmer distinguishes between the ‘hardware’ (technical fundamentals taught by coaches like Ricky) and the ‘software’ (the mental game). He focuses on unlocking the athlete's mental hardware to break through mental blocks.

    "You do have to have coaching. You do have to have good role models for that. But once you’ve got those, how do we refine that?" (09:58–10:31, B)

• Individualization:

  • His system is taught one-on-one but is flexible enough for beginners to Olympians, with unique application depending on the shooter's stage of development (12:26–13:33, B).

• Finding and Staying in “The Zone”:

  • Palmer describes the “zone” as “the moment of brilliance.” He asserts shooters should not wait until technical mastery to access it, but rather use it to accelerate learning (13:24–14:05, B; 15:46–17:12, B).

Visualization Techniques

• Active vs. Calm Visualization:

  • Palmer recommends active, energetic visualization that mimics real competition intensity, instead of the traditional calm approach:

    "What if you're crushing every clay? I mean, I put a little bit of, you know, body language into that. ... Hey, I'm feeling that right now." (15:46–17:12, B)

• Ink Balling and Target Imprinting:

  • Palmer and the hosts discuss focusing on “smoke balling” targets in your mind—imagining breaking every target perfectly, which programs positive outcomes.

Squad Dynamics, Competition, and Peer Pressure

• The group discusses how squad relationships, talking, and even light trash talk can impact mental focus, and how international competitions introduce new psychological challenges (18:22–24:10, A/C).
• Palmer argues most shooters aren’t trying to “pull people down”—they’re just wrapped up in their own struggles, and internal focus is key:

  "Other people do not care. They're more concerned with themselves." (27:36–28:06, B)

Dealing with Setbacks

• “Replay the Tape” Technique:

  • Palmer advises shooters, after a miss, to mentally replay the shot, “crush it” in their minds, and move on—preventing a miss from snowballing (38:56–39:25, B).

    "When you miss a target, you know, replay the tape and crush it. ... It helps you forget that you missed. And two, it may be correcting for a technical error you're making." (38:56–39:41, B)

• The “Delete Button” Strategy (56:08–57:16, B):

  • Used when a squad member's miss distracts you—imagine pressing an internal "delete, delete" button to clear the mental slate.

Parents, Youth, and Modeling Behavior

• Palmer explains the importance of parental influence—adults must be calm, supportive, and model “zone” behavior for their kids. Over-involvement or criticism damages a young shooter’s confidence.

  "If I can get that dad to be in the zone and shut up ... they can just on the way to the competition, just keep your mouth shut and at the afternoon, let him do his thing..." (31:14–33:05, B)

• “Mirror neurons” allow athletes to subconsciously model their coach or parent (34:40–35:58, B).

Hydration, Nutrition, and Physical Preparation

• Hydration as a Mental Anchor:

  • Palmer recommends making hydration a consistent, mentally-anchored habit—after every station or post, take a drink and link it to feeling good to maintain performance and focus (47:42–49:07, B).

• Both Palmer and Ricky discuss eating and drinking right to keep mental energy and avoid the ‘crash’ of low blood sugar or dehydration (49:07–51:22, B/C/A).

Watching Others vs. Focusing Inward

• Don’t Watch Others Shoot:

  • Palmer recommends not watching your opponents shoot if possible, to avoid subconsciously mimicking errors or negative behaviors (52:00–53:02, B).

• If Excellence, Watch During Practice Only:

  • Watching top performers as a learning model is best kept to practice or training environments, not right before performing (53:02–54:09, B).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Mental Game:

  "The mind can be your enemy or it can be your friend." – Ricky, 36:22
  "You're not shooting against anybody but yourself." – Ricky, 36:22

• On Resilience:

  "You haven't shot your lowest score yet." – Ricky, advice from top shooters, 27:36

• On Parental Support:

  "The parent can be much more of an advantage to their child just by being in the zone and uplifting and, and, you know, keeping their mouth shut..." – Bob, 31:14

• On Competing:

  "There’s a third skill and that’s called competing... the only way to get competition skill is to go to a competition and throw shells and get angry and whatever happens there in your first few events." – Bob, 68:08

• Visualization:

  "Visualization is as good as practice, actual training, and... it doesn’t even approximate it unless you go in kind of crazy and... trick the mind to believe that you’re on the post." – Bob, 65:43

• On Confidence:

  "If you can see your opponent, he's beating you or she's beating you." – Bob, 62:39
  "Why are you even watching your opponent? I mean, they should not be in your head. They're rent free." – Bob, 62:47

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Important Timestamps

• Bob Palmer Intro/Bio: 00:54–06:21
• Book Discussion (Mind vs Target, Teen vs Target): 06:21–08:38
• Palmer’s Coaching Philosophy: 09:41–13:33
• Visualization Techniques: 15:46–17:40
• Squad Dynamics/Trash Talk: 18:22–24:10
• Blocks, Setbacks, and Replay the Tape: 34:32–39:25
• The Delete Button: 56:08–57:16
• Hydration & Nutrition: 47:11–51:22
• Watching Others Trap vs. Focusing Inward: 52:00–54:09
• Three Pillars: Technical, Mental, Competing: 68:08–70:17

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Key Takeaways for Listeners

• Active Visualization: Practice energizing, competitive visualizations—imagine yourself “crushing every clay,” not just going through the motions.
• Replay Misses as Smashes: After a miss, mentally replay and “smash” the next one—rewire your mind’s video.
• Delete Distractions: Use the “delete button” to let go of negative squad influence and missed shots.
• Hydrate and Eat Right: Make this systematic to maintain both physical and mental performance.
• Parents: Support, Don’t Pressure: Let young shooters “cook”—model composure, don’t over-coach at shoots.
• Compete by Competing: Actual match experience teaches what practice cannot—embrace it, win or fail.
• Focus Inward: Don’t preoccupy yourself with others’ scores or performance.

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Where to Learn More / Contact Bob Palmer

• Books: Mind vs Target, Teen vs Target (also in Spanish)—available on Amazon.
• Website: Sports Excel Inc.
• Coaching: One-on-one video sessions, tailored programs for shooters of all levels.

  "At the end of every session, I will ask, how will you perform now? And if they can't say better than before, I haven’t done my job." (65:10, B)

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This lively, information-packed conversation lays out both broad philosophies and specific, practical tools for shooting athletes—and anyone seeking to up their mental game in high-pressure pursuits. As Bob Palmer says: “If you break your target, you can’t be beat.” (63:02) Focus on smashing that next clay, in your mind and for real.

Transcript

[A]

Well, we have someone on the show that, that's been requested by quite a few people. Mr. Bob Palmer. And Bob has written many articles in trap shooting magazines about, you know, mindset and shooting. He's an author, CEO and a trainer of Sports XL Inc. And, and he's written, written several books. So we're really excited to speak with him today on the, on the mental side of the game and, and with what he brings. So, so welcome to the show, Bob.

[B]

Thank you. It's my privilege and my honor to be here.

[A]

Welcome to season four of trap talk

[C]

brought to you by Craig off the choice of champions.

[A]

Hey folks, if you're wondering where you can get your merch, head on down to shop.taptalkpodcast.com yes, folks, you can get

[C]

hats, T shirts, sweatshirts. They even have a ladies tank, shooters, towels. We might have some new stuff coming out for the 2026 year. Who knows?

[A]

We got all the swag. Head on down to the website. Thank you so much for being trap talk supportive.

[C]

Thanks everyone.

[A]

You know, Rick, the only thing looks better than these hats we're wearing right now is a bunch of gold and silver from rock Ron Prescott at Midstate precious metal. Show them the goods.

[C]

Listen, all I got silver right now. I won't bring the gold out for

[A]

Zach, but you know, I always want

[C]

to get that gold shotgun shells, 10 ounce bars. Folks, he could do anything for you. For all your shoot needs, give Ron Prescott a call. Midstate precious metals dot com.

[A]

He's a great guy. Support him. He supports all the shoots. He supports trap Talk. If you're thinking gold or silver, you need to be thinking Ron Prescott at Midstate precious Metals. Thank you, Ron. That's right.

[C]

Thanks for all the support.

[A]

Well, thank you. We thank you.

[B]

We appreciate a lot about your show. Just so you know, there's a lot of trap shooters who listen to you.

[A]

Well, I'm glad to hear that, you know, because you're, you're up in Canada, correct?

[B]

Yes, I'm on the east coast, just

[A]

above me and famous trap up there. There's, you know, Pat Lamont pretty much owns everything in Canada, right.

[B]

I mean, I've seen his name a lot. I haven't met the gentleman but you know, he has quite the rep. Oh,

[A]

he's a shooting machine. You don't want to get in his way. I mean he's a, he's, he's a good shot. He's a good friend of ours. He's been on the show many, many times. So whenever, whenever I think Canada, I Think. I think Pat Lamont. And also there's a big shoot coming up in July, the, the provincial championships up in, in Canada, isn't it? It's in Toronto, right, Rick?

[C]

It's outside Toronto is where it is. Hamilton, I think, is the, the club.

[B]

They typically have it.

[A]

Yeah, the Opta.

[C]

So that was to come up and, and I'm gonna see if we can. My son and I are gonna vacation up in Toronto. So just for a few days, go up, see some friends and stuff. So we'll see if I can't make it back up in July to shoot.

[B]

That's.

[A]

I know it's. I know it's like over the Fourth of July weekend, but I mean, it sounds like you got a great program. They got a lot of added money, they got silver, they got all kinds of trophies and everything. So, I mean, I'll get some more information and we'll dump it on, but, you know, like, I'm, I'm just in the Canada mindset now that we're with Bob.

[B]

You gotta go see the Blue Jays.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, Sounds like fun. Well, well, Bob, thanks for being on the show. Like I said, we want to know how you got started in the mental coaching business, becoming an author and CEO. Like, where was your start? And how did you become passionate about helping excel others win in the sport that we love?

[B]

It probably started when I was, what, age 12? Because I was a reasonably good athlete. I was skillful, but it always had this ceiling that I wasn't able to break through. But every once in a while I did. I just had this miraculous game that was just. That was incredible. And I, and I was trying to figure out, how do I do that every time? And it didn't seem possible. And I worked at it and I tried different things and it just wasn't happening. And then I read some psychology books that said, hey, you know, you can't expect that. It's only elite shooters or elite athletes that can do that. And I was in no way an elite athlete, but I did it on those rare occasions. So I got into the martial arts at one point after going to college, and I was a little smarter. I had a couple of degrees and I was more of a systems thinker. And again, I joined this karate club that, I mean, some of the best point karate people, it's not ufc, but point karate people in North America. And it forced me to go, okay, how do I get to their level? And that's when I started working some strategies and trying to figure out what worked and what didn't work? And, you know, kind of stumbled upon, you know, using my body as a laboratory, that, hey, the zone is something. I call it. The zone is something that is achievable by anybody if you know the steps to get there. Okay? But most people just. They go and they. It's by happenstance and they try to. Oh, it was. It seemed like magic today, or it was something I ate or something I, you know, something I wore. Well, like, exactly. Or I wore a pyramid or something, you know, and this. So I was able, through putting myself on the line. And did I like it? Initially, no. I remember going to a karate tournament and going, you know, what's a grown man like me, you know, getting in front of my peers, making a fool of myself for. And I didn't like that feeling. And so, I mean, you know, sounds a bit like you, Ricky, where you, you know, you probably hate to lose more than, you know, anything, and you're going to figure out how to win. And that was me, right? Don't mess with me when you don't call me a loser because, you know, I'll figure it out. And I did. I managed to figure it out. And it was, hey, I thought, man, if I could do it myself, might be a great business.

[A]

Well, it sounds like you've had an impressive career. I mean, you've written some books. I'm pulling them up. I mean, there's six of them, so I didn't memorize them all. But vine vs Target, I read, and that was a great book. And then you said you had Teen versus Target is your newest one, correct?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And what other books did you write?

[B]

I've written a book on sales. I mean, I applied the same principles to a sales book for business. And then I've got the Spanish book. Mine vs Target is also in Spanish for anyone that's interested there.

[A]

So is it different or did you just convert it over?

[B]

Most of them are converted over except for the youth book.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

The youth books are different. And that's the newest one that you.

[B]

That's. That's the newest one. That's. That's the. This one here.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Teen versus Target. And, and, you know, it. It. I tried to talk in teen language, in a sense, you know, I'm an old guy. So, you know that it's not a trick, right? It's just how do I speak to teens in a language they understand? And, you know, I use the metaphor of a cell phone.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So, you know, every kid has. Every kid has a cell phone, right? And, and they know they have an operating system. And you know, we as humans have an operating system. You know, we, it works in a way that we keep getting better and better or not. And, and some of that's dependent on having, you know, some, you know, strategies. And in the, in the book I refer to them as apps, sort of mental apps.

[A]

So what are you downloading in your mind?

[B]

Well, exactly. I mean, let's download some good stuff. Let's, let's, you know, how do we deal with people? Well, that's a strategy. So refer to that as an app rather than, I mean in my versus Target, you know, they're straight up strategies. Okay, here's what you do to get in this kind of situation. But with the teen book, I, I kind of, it isn't dumbed down. It's actually a lot of adults have been reading it and enjoying it because it, it uses the metaphor. They, it, it, it makes, it makes it make sense, if you will, that there's something I can't do well on my phone, if I can't do something, I upload something to help me with my photos.

[A]

Yeah, it's getting slow. It's getting slow. You get more storage. If it's, if it's, if it's not, it's. If you don't have the right app, you download it.

[C]

If you download the right, if you

[A]

want the newest update, you update a new iOS system and, and, and you put, you know, that really does resonate with me and I think that would resonate with young people because I mean, we all have the capabilities if you put the right information in. And I think that's where there's a lot of disconnect in any shooting sports is a lot of people don't think that they have the capability and they think that there's a block or an area where they can't get to that next zone. And I will say that there is some physical impediment at some level based on hand eye coordination at some level or what you're, you're born with. But if you've got a good stable base and you've got some good hand eye coordination at some level. Basic. I really don't think there's a barrier to what you could get to in shotgun shooting. I mean, I think everyone could, could theoretically get to the top of the game.

[B]

Well, I think people put barriers up and they don't think, well, can I break through that? And, and sometimes, you know, I get some old comments a client and they'll say Just, I'm just blocked here. And, and it turns out, well, they learned the game on their own.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and I said, well, have you seen a coach? You know, have you ever had training? Have you gone to a clinic? Well, I thought of it and so, you know, in what I do, I can only. I mean, I don't teach the tools, I don't teach the, the, you know, the techniques for shooting. You do have to have coaching. You do have to have good role models for that. But once you've got those, how do we refine that? How do we, you know, as soon as I hear somebody say, well, yeah, I can't do that, I go, well,

[A]

and that, that makes a lot of sense to me because now you're speaking in a whole nother way. You know, you need someone like a Ricky to say, hey, this is how you shoot trap. This is physically how you set up the gun. This is how you look at the target. This is how you approach the field. This is your feet. This is your stance. That's your hardware.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You're. He's. He's a hardware guy. He's. You developing all that hardware. Perfect. And now there's some mental coaching that as a champion, he could bring to the table, too. But, you know, you are going in and saying, hey, what's in between the ears? So, so I guess I'm going to ask the question that everybody's thinking right now as they're listening to this podcast. If, if you have somebody that is a stable shooter and they, they know how to shoot the game, you know, what are kind of some basic steps or some things from your book that you could share with us today as far as what they need to do, where they need to start to, to build those roadblocks.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I like working with stable shooters. I mean, just from the. I mean, I'm not. That's not a joke or anything because they, they are easy. They're usually students of the game. Right. That they know it's working and what isn't working. And, and they'll make you list of, you know, 10 items long and what's not working. And sometimes with them it's just, well, what is working? What. What do you want to do? I don't know. I think I want to win.

[C]

So in your deal, Bob, not to interrupt you, but I'm just thinking out loud here with. So you do a lot of more one on one basis stuff, correct? I do with each individual, which is. Is how I teach. I don't teach a group like everybody has to do it. It's not a cookie cutter platform, so to speak. And, and that's why, you know, looking at your website stuff, I know you do a lot of the one on one stuff. So you take each individual athlete and might form a plan around that individual what works for them.

[B]

Correct. Yes. Okay. And it's system based. It's, it's.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Basically I teach the same system to everyone. When may sound a little weird that, you know, I do with an Olympian or, and do it with a beginner, but you know, someone like Olympian would run with it. They go, okay, I've been there, I've been, I've done this, this and this. Oh, so I can do more of each one of those. Whereas to a development shooter, I mean, everything's new. Yeah, there's, they're. Oh, really? I mean, I can think of my path. Well, I was asked about, well, what's one of the first things that a shooter might do? And that's if you go back to some of your best shoots, you know, it feels pretty darn good. Yeah, right. Yeah.

[C]

Like I tell everybody, we're, we're, we're a person. You know, people are, they like self satisfaction.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's, you do something good, it's pat yourself on the back and move on, you know, and you, you gotta grow.

[B]

But take that. For me, it's about. Okay, well that feeling really good. I call it. They're the zone. That's their moment of brilliance.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and usually we, you know, most people I talk to go, okay, don't I have to learn skills and get really, really good moment happens. No, well, no, it is, it's something in itself. You can be in that zone and, and not have any skills. So. But if you're in that zone and you go to you Ricky and you know, teach me well, a, you're going to like teaching this person because they're open to, you know, they're, they're fun to work with because they're in the zone. And the fact that they're in the zone, they're going to learn a lot, a lot faster.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they want to excel, you know, and that's the greatest thing about you. That's why with this book, you know, that you wrote for teens, you know, I teach a lot of youth. That's how I started teaching. That was I would only teach youth because they go, how high do you want me to jump? Versus an adult says, why, why, why should I do that? They always want to debate with you. As you know, I mean, I'm sure you've worked with some adults that they always want to debate, and I get it in every clinic and, and it's always fun because I try to down and say, listen, you know, if you're writing that check to somebody else, then you're in the wrong clinic. You know, you write it to me. So you're here to learn, so come with an open mind, you know, and, and be open to try new things, because, trust me, I've been doing this game 38, almost 39 years. I'm still learning stuff, you know, and. Because if you're not learning, you're not approving, and that's what I always say, so.

[A]

Well, I think we're learning, like every one of these podcasts that we do, we learn something, right? Like, we're. We're. Me and Ricky going through here. I think the best coaching that I've ever had in the history of my life has been the series of the last three going on four seasons of trap talk and just kind of talking the game with people and hearing, you know, what are you doing, how are you doing, and how are you thinking? So, so let's, let's roll this back. I mean, there's some things that I want to uncover there, Bob. You know, I'm a shooter. I'm going to the line, I'm winning, I'm shooting good. You know, what are the things that I need to think about to start to get myself more into that zone consistently? What are the things that you would advise me to work on, like, day one?

[B]

Well, before you get anywhere near the line is when you need to be doing it. Right? I mean, there's a lot of going on in terms of, like, the visualization process to get ready for a shoot, and it gets overlooked a lot because it can be. Seem very tedious and very boring. But I put a twist on it, and it's from my own experience, I found out that, you know, that the typical version of visualizing is to, you know, spend some time, lie on a chair, self, talk yourself into, you know, kind of a hypnotic state, be relaxed. And I mean, and that just put me to sleep at a competition I did. I just went to a competition after doing that for, you know, three months, and it, you know, it just, it was. It wasn't fun, and I got a little miffed at that. But I said, well, wait a minute. What if. What if I, you know, went in my. Into my basement and visualized as I was pummeling people and and the same would be with a shooter doing your gun mounts rather than just doing gun mounts. What if you're crushing every clay? I mean, I put a little bit of, you know, body language into that. Think about that. I mean, and then you get to the line and whoa. I was crushing them in my visualization. I was pumped with adrenaline. Hey, I'm feeling that right now. The targets are clear, the distractions disappear.

[C]

So.

[A]

So for visualizing, you're more of a live action visualization instead of like a slow, calm in a chair visualization, meditative type of state. More of like, if I'm going to say I'm going to do my gun mounts, as I'm mounting my gun in my basement or in my garage, I would visually try to recognize and see the clay in the, like, look for the clay and, and focus on seeing the specific spot of the target and feeling myself make that move consistently over and over again. Is that, Is that what you're saying?

[B]

And ink balling it? Not, you know, you know, the feeling you get when you ink ball a target. Yeah.

[C]

You know, Zach doesn't, Bob, just so we're on the same page, Zach doesn't get that feeling much. He just chips a lot of tart. We give back a lot of crap because he used to shoot these real open chokes and he would just chip him. So we always said he had a skeet choke in shooting traps, so he

[A]

knows, See, I keep busting them hard, Bob. And you know what? I got that full choke in. Now I'm turning it.

[C]

He hits it pretty good now. But there was a while our whole squad would be like, zach, could you hit a target good? You know, it's got to help the confidence.

[A]

Step one was get X's. Step two, hit them harder.

[C]

Now we're.

[A]

We're building the game, Bob. We're building the game.

[B]

Calm visualization works on calm days with no opponents, you might as well just be on your own practice range, nice and calm and going through the motions. But when you get into a grand and there are people that wanted us, they're as hungry as you are. It ain't calm. And who knows what they're doing when they chat with you beforehand? Which is why I'm kind of leery about having people, you know, talk to you beforehand. Because some people are very good at throwing you off your game.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, they, they. And they, you know, won't even notice it. I mean, it's just subtle or some, you know, and, and so until you get more experience like you are, Ricky. I mean, it's just, it's. It's usually, you know, take some. Have my athletes take some caution before they. Before speak competition.

[C]

And you're dealing a lot with the international stuff. So there's. I've been in that world, you know, I shot bunker as a kid and, and was around a lot of the shooters. You know, Lance Bay, Josh Lakito, Steve Poles. You know, Lance and Josh course were Olympic medalists themselves. And, you know, Lance shot ata. Steve Poles was a big ATA shooter back in the day also. But seeing that stuff, and I was at some World Cups years ago, and I was at the first World cup at Tucson that we had, and because Bill Martin's the one that built all the bunkers there and, you know, was the donator behind it, so he wanted me to come out and so I went out and I watched. I sat there and watched all the teams. I watched some of the shooters interact with the USA shooters and just the foreigners interact with each other and some of their conversations. A lot of them spoke English, so I could understand if they didn't well, but I could just tell by their mannerisms, like, you're right in that game, you can tell there's things that are said that they don't want you to do good. Where in our game, you know, Zach and I shooting ata, when we're shooting together in a squad, we. We want everybody to do good. And if we don't win ourselves, we're wanting our squad mates to do well or our friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, and I think that's a big difference. Is there. There's levels of like, okay, that's a world level where they're going for these medals and it really matters to their country and everything. And, and so the talking is real. And yeah, you know, we. We were. We were. You know, I'm blessed because I grew up with Dave Kelly, which is known as the west coast. You know, talking. He's the man like, like Dave would. Would wear you down. I mean, one of the first times I actually beat Dave in an event, and I was like 15 years old, he came up and he like, socked me in the chest and said, don't do that again. Like, he, like, he is. He's that guy, right? And he was that. That constant dominant, I'm going to beat you every day kind of guy. And he could interweave that conversation. And if he was in a good mood, he wouldn't do that. But if, if you wanted to come at him and bet with him, if you would, he would get in your head, he would start saying, I'm on top of you. You know, he.

[C]

But he was. Listen, Zach, he wasn't that bad. You. You're just dogging on our boy. And he invited you duck hunting. No more duck hunting for Zach.

[A]

I think one of the greatest. The greatest teachers I ever had was Kelly, because it allows me now to say, well, you know, what's this person trying to do with this conversation? You know, Because I know some other shooters where they won't let anybody into their bubble. They just kind of like, yeah, I don't trust anyone in my bubble. I don't trust anyone to say anything while I'm shooting where me, I'm. My bubble's pretty open now because I've. I've already had it come at me from a bunch of different ways. And I'm like, that. That doesn't bother me, like, if, you know. So there's different levels when you're on

[B]

a squad like that. You've actually hand picked the people on the squad. Oh, yeah, Typically. Yeah.

[C]

I mean.

[B]

And why did you hand pick people? Because same mindset. They're in the zone. They're not going to mess with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're going to support you. Right. So everyone's kind of taken that. That leadership and I mean, it works.

[C]

Yeah, it's. It's weird to see. You know, I was a college coach for 10 years and in the collegiate game is similar to the international game when we would be at college nationals and stuff. And, and, and I hadn't been there for a few years because I had resigned and, and they had turned it into a club sport then with no funding. So with the podcast being so busy, lessons, blah, blah, blah. Well, this year I did lessons with Lindenwood and. Which is Zach's alma mater, and my son goes there as a freshman. Well, I went down to nationals for the whole time and, and I watched stuff and I even watched some of the teammates, some of the things they said, and it was, it was. It took me back a little bit because when I was a coach, my. I had 17 kids on. On the team at one time, and all 17 wanted everybody to win. Where I seen, on a lot of the teams down there, you see these teammates, like trash talking on other teammates, and I'm like, yeah, they're in it for the wrong reason, you know, is what it is. It's in a lot of it is jealousy. And that's what you. You find out. And that's what I see in the international game, even with some of the, the teammates of these other countries, I was just like taken back and I'm like, wow. And you know, starting to talk to other people about it. So it's kind of crazy. But yeah, in our world, you know, when we're shooting together, Zach and I, I mean we, we chat all the time now we're out on the line, you're shooting now. If something happens, we might chat. But otherwise, you know, we get, we get out there, we get our job done and we're off the line, you know, and then we'll mess with each other or whatever. But it's all in fun. It's never an ill will to like hope someone misses a target or try to get in their head. You know, Zach does that occasionally to me when he beat me at the end he'll, he'll throw a haha and I'm like, oh, you know.

[A]

But no, hey, you don't want to poke the bear. You don't want to poke the bear. But, but Bob, I, I do want to ask you something because you've been around a lot of competitors and you know, I've kind of seen a little trend now that we're talking about like where people are and their mindset on it. The, the difference between wanting everyone to do their best and trying to beat them at their best versus well, if I pull enough people down to my level, then I could, then I could beat them. Do you see like you know, the, you know, the non elite athletes taking more of that mindset where they're trying to pull people down to them versus rising to the occasion? I mean, what's your opinion on that? You know, Rick, when you're riding around your air conditioning and your nice can am and I'm walking, I'm thinking to myself, where do I get one of these things?

[C]

At Big Red Motorsports, that's where you get one. George or Jason Lee, they'll take care of you, Zach.

[A]

I mean, I need one. I'm tired of riding on the back of that cooler. I want to sit inside that cab and roll around in style. I mean, my face is on the back, but help me out list.

[C]

I'm going to move your face to the bumper is where it's going to get moved for the new one. Okay? All you need is a little quiche and we can take care of you. But listen, Big RedMotorsports.com thanks Jason and George Lee and Big Red Motorsports for all the support. They'll take care of you folks. And it's Free delivery.

[A]

You know, Rick, I just love having the peace of mind and knowing that if I'm traveling or I'm flying, something happens, I can get my winig and my Craig off replaced quickly and easily. Without costing me a bunch of money.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. The gun and trophy insurance. It's the best out there to ensure your guns, sure. Your trophy, animals, everything.

[A]

Thank you to the whole Cushman family for supporting the show and everything they do for Trap Shooter.

[C]

Absolutely. Get a hold of Cole Cushman and he'll get you set up. Hey, Zach, have you been out to 73 Pointers Ranch lately?

[A]

You know, I have. Rick and Carla Burke have been great. I normally hunt pheasants and chukar down there, but now they got a brand new sporting clays facility and it is top notch. I shot it the other day. Absolutely loved it. And if you guys haven't, you need to go give it a check out.

[C]

Well, I'll have to come out and do a little hunting and we'll shoot

[A]

some sporty clays then 45 minutes from St. Louis Airport. Come see it if you haven't. Guys, check them out. You know, Ricky, I know you use it on your barrels, but you even know what RGS stands for?

[C]

No, Zach, what does it stand for?

[A]

Really good.

[C]

Well, that is true. It is good stuff, folks. I use it to clean my barrels and it does make them shine.

[A]

Only problem is I wear white T shirts when I clean my barrels and I get them all messy, so I got to be better at that. But it gets all the plastic, all the gunk out. Give them a try, folks. They're great.

[C]

That's right. Give RGS a try. We appreciate all the support.

[B]

I think that'd be unfair to a lot of athletes. I think there may be some like that, but by and large, no. They're just scared, right? They're more interested in themselves. And I've had a number of adults who, you know, got so upset with their game, they packed up and left and went home. And, you know, because I just, you know, embarrass myself. They said, yeah, and. And I said, you know, and my line to them is that other people do not care. They're more concerned with themselves. If they do care, it's that they're not you. Yeah, well, they're not mocking you because they've been there usually. And so if you can just, you know, we put that over there and said that, well, they're. They don't care about me. I'm the one that's got to, you know, care about me. And if I really want to embarrass myself, I pack up and go home. That makes sense. That's why you embarrass yourself. You don't embarrass yourself by shooting poorly, because everyone has to start somewhere.

[C]

Yeah, you haven't shot your lowest score. That's what I was told a long time ago by some top shooters. They said, you haven't shot your lowest score yet. And I was like, damn, I had a bad day today. So I'm like, I hope I don't have that feeling again. But, yeah, you're. You're right. It is something that when people quit, I call it quitting. You know, you quit. You're quitting on yourself. You know, you got to put in the effort, and it is tough to be consistent and at the top of the game every year, you know, so.

[B]

Yeah, and the people you're talking about there, Zach, they don't last on squads very long. Yeah, they don't last in the game very long. They learn pretty quickly that, you know, that kind of attitude is not welcomed, and they. They find themselves out of a home and they maybe quit the sport. I. You know, it. You know, the shooting game has been good for me in terms of the competitiveness and the desire to. To get better, and I. I really appreciate that, but it's. I. I don't think I've ever met a shooter I haven't liked. I mean, the trap shooter.

[A]

There's a lot of good people.

[B]

There's a lot of good people and generally concerned. I mean, the only thing it kind of missed me at times is, you know, I, you know, at the end of every program I work with, somebody say, you know, if you really like this, you know, you know, tell other people, and sometimes I'll get. Well, Bob, you know, just so you know, I'm not telling anyone.

[C]

They don't want anybody to know that they're doing good.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[C]

That. So that.

[B]

That might be myth me a little bit, but, you know, besides that.

[A]

Yeah, they don't want to share the love. They're like, I got the secret juice, and I. I ain't gonna give this secret juice out.

[C]

I met a few. I've had a few students that I've worked with privately, and I'm like, yeah, you know, they're like, I'm not telling anybody. And I'll see them at a shoot and. And they'll, like, say hello. And then at night or something, they'll stop by the camper, have a drink Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, hey, what was the deal? They're like, I don't want them to know I'm getting lessons. I'm like, why? Because they want to know why I'm kicking their butt now. And I'm like, and. And here's the deal. It's just like in your case, you know, you can give them the tools. They've got to use it.

[B]

They got it, they gotta understand it.

[C]

I've given the tools to people where they like, literally, father, son, the father's like, what the heck? The son's like, bing, all American.

[A]

And the dad's like, nice and easy.

[C]

Yeah. You know, so it is, you know,

[B]

one of the things that I do, I think, a bit differently than a lot of other people is that I actually train the person to be me.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

In a sense. Right. So that I. So essentially, with every athlete I work with, there are two people working with them myself, and I teach them the tools so that they run with those tools. And. And initially, maybe not so much, but as they start learning more of the system, then they get into a spot, they can fix it themselves or, you know, I mean, I'm pretty open with my, you know, communication with them, and I've been known to walk out of a social function and. And take some flack for it, but my athlete's more important in those situations.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And 10 minutes reminds them of a tool they could use, right?

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

So I.

[C]

You're giving stuff to them, you saying, you know, it's just being you. And that's the same deal is you. You're giving them the info.

[B]

They.

[C]

And every athlete's going to be different. You know, you might get some that boom. Olympic medals, and you might get some that go, ah, you know, this is all I got. And it's, you know, because they didn' Take it any further, because each individual has to. You, you know, you can give it.

[A]

You can.

[C]

Like, you can lead a horse to water. You can't tell it to drink it, you know.

[B]

Well, and some. Sometimes you'll get, you know, a kid who's self described as lazy, and the dad will call their kid lazy. And. And I never take that, you know, for an excuse. There's always some block underlying it. And if I can help that kid break through that block, all of a sudden they, oh, I'm not lazy. And if I can help the dad break through the. I mean, I work with parents. If I help the dad break through the block and not see his son as lazy and find Out. Well, you know, because I've had moms call me up and say, bob, it's not working. You gotta talk to my husband. And I do. And it's a different model. It's a model of the dad taking leadership rather than pushership. Yeah, right. So if I can get that dad to be in the zone and shut up. Sorry. You know, I better be careful with dads. Right. But I mean, literally, if they can just on the way to the competition, just keep your mouth shut and at the afternoon, let him do his thing, let them do their thing, and at the end of the competition, keep your mouth shut and let the child go, well, hey, you know, can I talk about this? Or, you know, and it might be, well, better talk to your coach, Ricky, or talk to, you know, I'm not sure about that. I'm not, you know, I'm not at the level you are anymore right there. So the acknowledgement that the parent can be much more of an advantage to their child just by be in the zone and uplifting and, and, you know, keeping them all shut and driving to them, to their, their competition, just kind of even musing about some of the joyous zone things they did in their own lives and what a difference that can make.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that's huge. I mean, and for your, for your teen book, the lingo for the kids nowadays is let them cook. Right. Let them do their thing. Let them, let them do their thing. Because a lot of the times you're, you're trying to get ahead of it or give them all this information and it can bog them down, especially if it's a different direction than what they really need to be focused on, like the, the information you're giving them. So I, I, I heard you earlier say, you know, you people would get embarrassed and leave the shoot and, you know, kind of give up on themselves. So if you're dealing with a student that's maybe discouraged or in a bad place mentally, and they're, you know, they're ready to give up at some level, where would you start with them mentally to get them back on the right road of success?

[B]

I guess it depends. If I've been working with them and they come to me and they're in the process of, well, they're just so discouraged by the competition, then they would already have some tools that I would walk them through those tools and go, okay, let's look at it differently. But right from the start, I just, well, one thing you got to realize about me, and I think Ricky, you Acknowledge this with most coaches.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That if you're coaching someone, you're not in the zone, you get that kind of flat result from them. Oh yeah, you're in the zone, man. You know, all of a sudden they get in the zone, they're much more receptive and sometimes they might even forget about what was bothering them. Right. So.

[A]

So once that is how success again.

[B]

Yeah. Well, even not even feeling successful, just feeling good.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Because. And part of what I work with, there's a modeling process that goes on. So father, son, son starts to shoot like the father does. The father's really good. Well, the kid's really good. Right. There's a modeling process that goes on. And I call that the actual scientific mechanism is something called mirror neurons. They are in our brain, they allow us to see it and do it as kids anyways, as adults. Well, then we get our self doubt going on and sometimes that interferes with that process. Right? Yeah. But when you understand that process as a coach, the athletes you're working with, they're fun. Ricky's fun guy to hang around with, or I'm a fun guy to hang around because something's going on. I'm not sure what they're doing as an athlete, but that zone feels pretty good and it actually allows me to learn faster. And so I, you know, I can, I know with other coaches, when people look at their students, they go, there's a mini somebody. Right? Yeah. The technique is almost the same as the coach. And is that safe to say with your coaching that you'll, your students will go away and you can, you can tell who's shooting, your system, your style.

[C]

Yeah, I can. Most of them, you know, the stance and everything. I mean, I generalize a lot of that stuff, but make them have their own comfort zone. You know, with everything as Zach does the same thing. Because I taught Zach and, and he uses the same type of format and stuff. And it's one of those that it is the, the mind is. Can be your enemy or it can be your friend.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's where I think, like I teach all my kids and, and all my students that you're not shooting against anybody but yourself.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

Because this is one of the only sports, all clay target shooting is the only sport where you can't be beat during the event. Okay. You know, if it's 100 target event or an international, it's 125 target event, the best score is 125 or the best score is 100, you can do that where you get beat is in the shoot offs. So as long as. And that's where people, you know, they go out. And you know, we've had Zach and I have had people jump on squads with us and they're like. Because I was that guy when I was a kid, you know, standing on the line with Leo Harrison and Frank Hoppy and, and you know, JD Overstreet and, and Martin Wilbur, gentlemen from, from Kansas and, And out of all them, Martin Wilbur's the, the only one that, that's left alive now. And I'm sitting out there like. And all these people come up watching and I'm like. And one day I said that to Leo, I said, hey, check out all these people here watching me shoot. And Leo said, yep, they're here watching you. And I shot the worst out of all of them. And it was funny. I was like 14 years old, but

[B]

it, you know, mind games.

[C]

I didn't care. I was, I was laughing and, and that was one of the things is, you know, on the way back to the hotel, I'll never forget Frank and Leo both said, you got to give a better performance. And then people are going to come back and watch you shoot tomorrow. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna try. But you, you talk about the going back a little bit. We were talking about imagining things and you know, and the focus and all that. And I remember as a kid, Frank telling me, he said, when you go to sleep tonight, I want you to imagine breaking 100 straight in your sleep. Imagine breaking 100 targets. And I did. And you know, the next day I broke 100 straight. And it was funny is if that was all subconscious when I was out there shooting, I wasn't consciously thinking about last night. But when I got done, someone asked me like, would you. How'd that go? You know, the targets were tough. And I, and you know, I just said, well, I, I imagine doing it last night in my sleep. And they were like, what? They kind of looked at me strange and, and I still get that from some people and as I know Zach does too, but you have to. It's like when you break. Like you say, you smoke ball that target, you ink ball a target. That's the, the target you want to put in the mind and go. That's all I do every time.

[B]

Yep. There's a.

[C]

And then it progresses, you know.

[B]

Well, I mean, one little tip. I give shooters, this is an aside, but they, I got this from another coach. But when you miss a target, you know, replay the tape and crush it Yep. Right. So you've missed it. And the tendency is to miss the next three because you're sold. Pissed at that, right? Yeah. Yeah. But this is about, you know, oh, I missed it. Let's just do a do over quickly. I mean, it takes two seconds. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, got it.

[B]

Right. And. And move on to the next target that. In the next rotation. Right. But it's, it's. It has a. Does two things, basically. One, it helps you forget that you missed.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And two, it may be correcting for a technical error you're making.

[A]

You know, Rick, I know you had a lot of involvement with them since the beginning, since they started. But I really love the way that the shot tracker, you know, catches the doubles from shot to shot with the looping. You know, tell the folks what they need to know about that system.

[C]

It's the best system out there. It's like having a coach on the end of your barrel, like we say, but going especially in double from first shot to second shot. You can see it on the graph. You can see it on video.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, if you talk about that J hook with Sean Holly and all them, I mean, it'll literally show that loop, and I think that's really powerful if you're doing it. They've supported the show since the beginning. They love trap shooting. They're great people. Give them a shot, folks. They make a great product.

[C]

Take Aim Technologies.

[A]

You know, Rick, I was at the Autumn grand and the Nevada State shoot, and I was just really impressed with how I could see where my squad was when I was up. Just the technology, the ability to be able to see what options I've played if the event's paid or not. I mean, what's your experience with. With the app?

[C]

Listen, SOS Clay's app, it's the best thing out there, folks. You can see everything. It's great. You see your option payouts. You can see when you're up, you can see who's paid on your squad. Sometimes Zach doesn't pay on time, but it's.

[A]

I get out there. But what I really think is, is for gun clubs, it's free. Call Greg, get a hold of them. He'll set you up. He'll get you running. Right. And if you pay the. The premium once a year, you get free pre squatting in all the shoots. And that's the best value in trap shoot.

[C]

Absolutely. SOS clays.com Rick, I really think that

[A]

GunFit's probably the most important part of shooting big scores. Would you agree with that?

[C]

Absolutely. I think gunfit is the most important thing.

[A]

I mean, most of the top all Americans are shooting custom stocks. I know when I got my custom stock, my scores went up. I broke 100 strips in the 27 within seven days. I mean, I'm sure your experience has been similar.

[C]

Yeah, I've been shooting a custom gun stock for 20 years. Winning. If you want to win championships, get a winning gun stock.

[A]

Yeah, call Bobby, call Luke. I mean we got the stock whisperer over there, Bill. Give them a shot. They're great and they know what they're doing.

[C]

Absolutely. Winning dot com. Check them out.

[A]

Hey, Rick, we got to take a second. We got to thank Outlaw Engineering and the Preston family for supporting trap shooting and supporting Trap Talk podcast. They've been here for us. They're great people, you know, you know them real well, Rick.

[C]

Yeah, I've known Randy since 1988. R2 and the family, they're great supporter of the show. Coop just won the autumn grand handicap championship with a 97.

[A]

I know, I was there. I got to interview him. It was great. I was so proud of him.

[C]

He's doing a job.

[A]

Great job.

[B]

Hashtag.

[C]

Where's Coop?

[A]

He's somewhere with that big buckle. He's having fun. So you need anything engineering related, get a hold of Outlaw. They'll take great care of you. Great folks.

[C]

Thanks for all the support. Outlaw. Exactly.

[B]

Okay. But that's, you know, and the third part of that though is you do that every time. After a while it becomes a reflex and subconsciously reflexive so that you may didn't do it that time, but you feel good about it.

[C]

It.

[B]

Right. You just stop feeling bad about missing.

[A]

Yeah, I mean I. Hearing it that way, it. It brought up a thought in my head because you said, you know, replay the tape and, and do it again. Because there's a lot of times I've realized just in you saying that, that I've done that where if I took a target in singles and I shot over the top of it or I did something where I made a mistake, I would almost say, okay, well in my mind this is how I should have did it.

[B]

It.

[A]

And it's almost like you're correcting it so the next time it comes around, you're not going to do it again. And I've never put it that way, like the way you just described it. But. But I very, very much felt that feeling of a tactical mistake. And then you're catching the technical, technical mistake as you're doing it and then you're like, okay, next time that bird comes out, I'll keep my head on the gun. Or next time the bird comes out, I won't move on the call. Or next time, you know, that little thing that you caught yourself doing, that equated to that lost bird. But if you don't acknowledge it, then how do you fix it?

[B]

Right. Yeah, yeah. And just sometimes it may, Rather than even acknowledging it, just do it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Test it out. Just next time you miss, just re. Smoke that target. Right? Just. Or smoke that target. And. Well, I felt pretty good.

[A]

That does work. Yeah.

[B]

And it's, you know, part of that too is with athletes when they come back from a competition. You know, I do a bit of a. I do a debrief with them and one of the questions I ask them is, you know, how'd your squad mates shoot? And the answer is, I don't know. But it should be, I don't know because I'm not interested in their scores. I'm interested in my own. And so I did. I had a kid in Europe and I was talking to him. He just finished a round and I asked him that question, how'd your squad mates shoot? And he just went silent. And his dad was overhearing us and he rushed over and started telling me, well, that guy shot that and that guy. I said, no, your son had it, right.

[C]

Yeah. He's not worried. You don't want him to worry about what the squad mate shot. You're worried about what he's doing.

[B]

Yeah, he just, you know why, you know. Yeah. If you're concerned with your squad mates, then they beating you. Yeah, right.

[C]

That is true.

[A]

That's a good thought. I mean, be focused on what you're doing, you know, so, so, so far, you know, key takeaways from today's podcast.

[C]

You're.

[A]

You're big in the visualization. Active visualization is what I would call it where you're, where you're doing that active. You're, you're big on correcting or replaying the shot on a loss, instantaneously turning it into a smoke pot, a smoke ball, you know, positive mindset. And then for, for most people, I'd say from what I'm hearing from you, you like the idea of having their, Their own space or their, or their, you know, their kind of pre. Routine time that they can kind of get into where they need to be with that, with that quiet, quiet mind. Is that correct, Bob?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And, and I mean, the exception to that, you know, could be that a lot of the Shooters that do shoot sporting clays and some other shoots, they, they go to charity events. Well, they're not registered targets. It's more fun and that kind of thing. And they say, well, Bob, I can't get away for 30 minutes before that. And then I say, well, then that's a great test for you. Can you be chatting with people and then step through that curtain, kind of a curtain that goes on to the pad and let that all disappear?

[A]

Wouldn't that be the ideal though? Wouldn't that be like the ultimate to where you could be chatting, walking, doing whatever, and then turn it on and then turn it back off? I mean, would that be the goal?

[B]

That. That is the ultimate goal. But I'm always one that says, well, you know, why take chances if that's the ultimate goal and I can do that, why would I risk, you know, a big payout or, you know, that the medal in, you know, international. Why would I risk that? Why? I mean, I know I'm a big proponent of being hydrated. I mean, I mean, some people probably can get by not drinking very much, but why risk it? I'm a proponent of eating properly. Well, you know, if, if two burgers put you to sleep.

[A]

Don't do two burgers before you shoot.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you could probably get over that where, you know, you're good shooter and you're capable. You could probably rise to the zone. But what have you missed when you, you know, lose the energy there? Right. So, yeah, you know, it's. There's a lot of things that are going on that you can do, but, you know, is it worth the risk?

[A]

There's a lot of talk about hydration. For a second you said hydration. Do you have like a certain amount of water you recommend or do you have certain products, electrolytes, things like that? How many days before a tournament? I mean, what are your thoughts there? Because I think a lot of people bypass that, especially going into the grand where it's a 105 degrees and you know, we're out there sweating for two weeks long. I mean, what are your thoughts?

[B]

I, I just stay on top of it, stay ahead of it. I mean, I mean, I don't, I'm not an expert on that side of it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I know in, in when you shoot in Colorado or, or shoot where it's very hot, you, you're. You perspire faster and lose more, more moisture. And, And I, I encourage you. And that is after every station or post you take a drink and it's not Just a drink of water. It's a drink of magic elixir. So I show athletes how they can turn that water and almost assessing where they're at, because typically what happens in shooting is you get in the zone right from the beginning, and then it just. And then each station or each post after that kind of can diminish, and it's incremental, and you don't really notice that if you drop from here to the final post and crash. Well, you'd notice that, but it's so incremental, you don't notice it. So one of the solutions is like, okay, you have your water bottle, and you've wired that to really feeling good. So that sip. Oh, you're fine. Yeah, you feel good because you've been practicing kind of a visualization to wire that in. And it does two things that. One, you can assess your. Your zone, make sure you don't incrementally lose it. But two, you're getting proper hydration during the day.

[C]

Yeah. Because the hydration. You talk about that and, you know, Zach's asking how much. There's no. I'll answer that. There is no exact amount to drink because every individual is different. So. But staying hydrated and eating right, you know, that's why I see a lot of people, like, they won't eat in the morning, and then they're going out and shooting. Well, what happens is about halfway through. I've tried all this stuff years, and. And like, for me, I'll. Even if it's a protein bar, it's something. Some fuel. Because as you're shooting now in. In ata trap is of course, different from the International games because, you know, like, bunker, you're walking, shoot one, walk, shoot one, walk, shoot 1, walk, and then walk from five back around to. To six, and then go over to one, depending if there's six shooters or not. Okay. But walk into one, you're using up a lot more energy in that. So having the water and be able to drink where we're out there on the line now, there has been times where I've been to shoots where it's been really hot. I've had a water bottle in my pouch just in case, because it's getting so hot that I know I'm on that brink. Like, hey, if I need a drink, I'm gonna take a drink. We can't stop and walk back to our shooting bags and. And get a drink while we're shooting. But in between post, if I got it in my vest, I could take a Quick drink. And it is one of those, that it's a. It's a mental thing where it can help you because mentally you're telling yourself you need water. Well, you just completed that. So now that's one less thing that you're worrying about because you should be thinking about breaking a target, not about, God, I'm, you know, God, I'm feeling hot, or any of those things slip in. And that is. So eating right and drinking the proper fluids is a big deal. That's.

[B]

I mean, you mentioned the, you know, having nothing to eat in the morning and going out and shooting and it catches up with you. I had one guy, we're trying to figure out why he crashed in the middle of a sporting place and why was he crashing in the middle of each round. And finally we narrowed it down to. Well, I said, what do you have for breakfast? Cup of coffee and a glass of orange juice. Well, there's two nice sugar spike and a. And a caffeine spike. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wears off. Crash. Now, he could recover because. But by then he had lost, you know. Yeah.

[C]

One station. You have a bad station in sporting, and that's your, that's your round, you know.

[B]

Yeah, it's over.

[A]

Yeah, same, same. We have a bad poster, bad box. I mean, it's, it's game over. So, I mean, if, if you can control and keep yourself at an even keel all the way through the event, I mean, that would be optimal for sure.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So. Yeah. So, Bob, I mean, we talked about getting in the zone. Getting in the zone. Getting in the zone and using these steps to get in the zone. Is there anything else that, you know, as a listener today, they're listening, they. They're not working with you. Is there anything else that our listeners can do to help them get into the zone quicker and stay in the zone?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure in trap, but in other sports, don't watch your opponents shoot. And even if you're, you know, if you're warm, if you're waiting for a squad in front of you to finish before you go up there, I would avoid watching them shoot just from the point of view that they may not be good shooters. And we talked about. I talked about mirror neurons and how we model people. Well, that's sometimes in the blink of an eye. So if you're there watching someone who's less of a shooter than you are, there's a possibility you'll take that on and they miss and they get frustrated and all of a sudden you're Finding yourself frustrated, you know, why is that happening? And it happens over and over again. Just don't watch anybody. Right.

[A]

So what, you can watch Ricky, if he's on a roll, then watch the good. Like if you're not in front of you, if you got Vinny Hancock breaking on, then you're like, okay, I'm gonna watch that. I mean, is there, is there a variance there? I mean, would the same be true to watching excellence?

[B]

Yes, in a sense. I mean, not necessarily. If you're, if you're training with Ricky, what. I mean, that's, that's when you want to do that or get, you know, you got videos, right? You know, watch, watch, watch them in training, watch them in practice. But, you know, I, I've had athletes go to a competition and they were on a squad with somebody who, like a Vinnie. It wasn't Vinnie, but it was like Vinnie. And, and they just shot lights out. And, and then the next round, that guy went off and shots, you know, a different group and, and they crashed because they had, in a sense, attached themselves to that guy's coattails.

[A]

We call that a lead horse.

[B]

Yeah, well, but when, when your squad is. Is consistent, that's fine. But when someone's that much, you know, you're seeing, I mean, literally, you're seeing the targets differently. Yeah, the world slows down. I mean, I, I mean, I've experienced that. It's. It's quite remarkable. But it can be unnerving when the next round comes or whatever and they're not there. So, you know, it's. And it might be, you know, maybe intimidated a little bit that that's even a possibility.

[A]

And I think I could break that down and rationalize with that because, I mean, there's definitely been some times where we're on a squad and we would call it an elite squad, where everybody's running along and nobody's missing and it's just clean, clean, clean, clean, no problem. And then somebody misses, and it creates a cascading train of misses. Like one, two or three people in a row will miss after that miss because of that disruption. And I think, you know, you know, Ricky's told me this before. He says, whether somebody misses or don't miss, you've got to be like, well, I'm going to shoot my target versus thinking about that miss and being like, oh, well, why they missed, Why'd they miss is the target hires lower, and then you're kind of thinking about that and then bam, you're missing. So, you know, I, I think Bob, you know, it, we, we in, in trap shooting and I know it's different than, you know, ice skied or sporting clips, but we do a lot of watching because, you know, we're trying to, you know, check variants of target and you know, kind of see what's going on in our field and you know, and be ready. And, and also when we're at the squad of people, you know, we're checking and we're self refereeing for did that guy hit it or did the guy not hit it? Because our scorekeepers aren't professionals like in that international game. So there's a lot of misses there where we have to, to, you know, self govern and make sure that, you know, hey, we're taking a target away from this guy or we're adding a target to that guy. But I think the, the, the dynamic change of when you see something negative not going there in your mind and kind of, you know, thinking about it because I have caught myself doing that where somebody misses. I'm like, oh crap, Ricky just missed. Why'd he miss? Up lost and then I just missed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, so what? Yeah, and it happens so quick because you're, you're over there thinking about him like, oh, you know, what did he do, how did he do it? And, and you almost, like you said, mirror, you start to mirror that where your nerves and everything kind of tightens up because you're like, okay, I don't want to miss. Right. And whenever you, I don't want to miss. Well, pretty soon now you're thinking about missing and you, you get the thing that you don't want.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Well, here's a, here's a quick strategy for that because it happens in golf as well. I, I don't know if you gentlemen are golfers or not.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

But I mean, what happens when a guy gets up and tees off and it goes in the woods? What's the next guy do?

[C]

Hit in the woods?

[B]

Same spot. Right. And that's the same in shooting. Right. It's contagious. And so I don't know if you know this or not, but you know that little delete button on your computer? Well, our brains have one too. So this is a strategy, a quick strategy I teach for that kind of situation. And there's a delete button right up here. And when that happens, you just look up and you press it twice. Delete, delete. And it, and it, I don't know what it does, but it kind of changes things. And the brain goes, okay, I can let that go. It's like giving your brain permission to let what you just saw go, refocus on what you got to do on that target. And it's something that happens initially, fairly quickly, and. And then becomes again, kind of subconsciously driven.

[A]

I need a much bigger delete button. We need delete, delete.

[C]

It's gonna hang on your chest and you can go, delete, delete.

[A]

I'm gonna be like Flavor Flav with one of them.

[C]

The dig hanging. Delete, delete.

[A]

Gold chains on.

[C]

It's gonna be great.

[A]

Triple delete.

[C]

Okay, that's good. Yeah. So. So where.

[A]

The kids will love that one. But, you know, Bob. There's a lot there, Bob. And I mean, I think. I think we're, you know, we're. We're covering a lot of different things today. We're giving a lot of great information for the listeners. And I think, you know, just hearing you speak, I think it would be beneficial for people to, you know, read your book or to get in contact with you and, you know, and sit down and have. And have a session and kind of work through their mind. Because like you said, it's going to be different for everybody. It's going to be a different situation. There's different learnings, there's different. There's different, you know, thoughts that come through our mind. And everyone's wired differently. I mean, Ricky and me pretty much shoot I mean, the same way as far as style, but his thoughts are completely different than my thoughts. I mean, my brain, his brain. Two different brains, two different ways of looking at the field, two different ways of saying the same thing. But if you look at, like from the feet up, my feet are pretty much his feet. My whole points are pretty much his whole points. I mean, the way I'm approaching the game and looking at the game from a. From a mechanical standpoint is very much layered off of the same way that he approaches the game and looks at the game. But. But, you know, two people with the same style, very different thoughts in our brains, you know, and, like, that's why I need that big delete, delete button. Button. The biggest, real super delete. Like he does white out or some kind of like the eraser pins, you know, that's.

[C]

He needs the control delete, which deletes it completely. You know, that's.

[A]

Blow that computer up.

[B]

But I mean, that's, in a sense, another tip. I mean, you're shooting with Ricky and you've got him as a model and, you know, in your spare time and your visualization Just what's it feel like to step in his shoes, see the target differently? And I mean, that's one of the exercises I teach. And it almost immediately has an impact. You go, oh, I catch the target faster, I catch it differently, I see it differently. Or it's bigger, it's slower.

[C]

Makes a difference.

[A]

Being able to take it where you want to take it, kill it where you want to kill it, hit it how you want to hit it. Like you said, turn it into smoke. A smoke ball, like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that, that, that in itself, I mean, people can get nervy on that. And you know, we got to watch ourselves because sometimes when, when RB08 Rich Bullard comes in from Nevada and we, we land in Iowa at the great Stockdale Gun Club and we've got our squad, you know, we get into the something called a smokeball competition where us five guys are in singles and we're trying to see who could hit them the hardest. And, and it's just, it's, it's cool. But, but we can get distracted by trying to hit it so hard that you actually miss the damn thing every once in a while. But it's, it's funny, it's your mind

[B]

game, by the way you're intimidating the other folks that are coming by and watching.

[C]

Oh, yeah, trust me, there is a lot of that going on for sure.

[A]

You know, we had another all time great on the show and he was a legend, one of the greatest ever to shoot the game. Koe and he, and one of his, you know, lines that I took out and put in my, in my brain that I didn't delete, delete was make them choke on the smoke. Right? Like you wanna, you wanna make them choke on the smoke. Just hit it so hard that they're just like, oh my God, like this guy's just, just tearing these things up. And, and I think if you just keep dropping that on them consistently, it's a little demoralizing because you don't think a guy's gonna miss when he's like center, center, like in a shoot off, you see a guy kind of flare one or chip one, you're like, okay, he's, he's getting around that edge.

[C]

But when he's on the edge, just

[A]

when you see that just, just ink.ink.ink. it's like, okay, I better, I better lace up my sneakers. It's gonna be here a while. I just love the way they're covering all the shoots across the country. The content, the pictures, what they're doing online, what they're doing on Facebook, Instagram. Instagram. What do you think? Yeah.

[C]

Traption usa, it's a great magazine. They are the official magazine of our podcast and we are the official podcast of Traction usa. So we really appreciate it.

[A]

That's really cool. And what they got is a deal right now. If you put Trap Talk PN for the print version and Trap Talk D for the digital version, it's 19.99 for the print and 9.99 for the digital for one year. You're not going to find a better deal. So subscribe today. You won't regret it.

[C]

Absolutely. Thank you for all the support.

[B]

And it's his presence, right? It's his, you know, he walks in there and has an advantage because, you know, I mean, Ricky, I'm sure you get the same thing. You walk in there and the way you walk, the way you position yourself, the way, you know, you set up and you know, one of my, you know, I have a strategy that kind of goes with it, but it's my Bob's rules, I guess I call them, is that if you can see your opponent, he's beaten you or she's beating you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, why are you even watching your opponent? I mean, they should not be in your head. They're rent free.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's just, how do you, you go into the competition and it sounds ego, right. But it sounds like an ego. I'm going to win this sucker. And, and that. And basically that's what I teach my athletes. You're going to win, right? You're going to, you're going to. You know, I got this from an

[A]

army and Ricky said this a million times. If you break your target, you can't be beat. So why would I worry who's at the tournament or what they're doing or how many they're hitting when the only thing that really needs to preoccupy my mind is what can I do to hit the very next target out? And, and in your words, Bob, smoke ball it.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, just hit the target.

[C]

Move on that. Bob, when you just said that about the rent free, I had a, a saying. I used to tell Zach I lived in his head rent free.

[A]

He had a couch up in there. That's okay. I invited him over though. So it's, it's not, it's not his fault. I, I let him in. I didn't hit the big delete, delete button. We're, you know, it's, it's. But now he's out of there. He's gone.

[C]

It's in there still, Bob. I'm living in that head rent free. I used to say that to people back when I played pool and stuff, you know, and you're competing and someone would, you know, make a smart comment. I'd be like, yeah, I'm in your head rent free. And then they're gone, they're done.

[A]

So no, he's the master of the one liner, you know, he can't help it.

[C]

Well, Bob, where now where can people get your books and contact. I know you have a website. Buy them from the website. Are they available anywhere else or.

[B]

They're on Amazon. Amazon or any other, you know, you know, online. But Amazon's the key place people buy.

[C]

Yeah. Because you get free shipping and yeah, the.

[B]

I don't know if you just audio or is this a video, a visual?

[A]

It's video. They're going to be able to see that right there. So if you get your hands.

[C]

Yeah, video.

[B]

And there's the other one. I don't have the, the, the Spanish one here, but the Spanish one. And yeah, they're, they're, yeah, the. Getting some raves and okay, dust jacket, you can read some of the testimonials from, from previous shooters, business people I worked with, the whole, whole gamut. And they, and my, my program, you know, my website's the best place for, to reach me regarding my program if you're, you know, wanting training. It's a training program, training system and

[A]

one on one coaching, one on one

[B]

coaching through video link like this. And, but it's as I say, at the end of every session I will ask how will you perform now? And if they can't after every session say better than before or way better than before. I haven't done my job.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And that's important.

[A]

I mean how, how important in your own words is their own visualization confidence, their own self reflection of them as a shooter? I mean I would think that if they don't think they're better, then there's no way they're going to get better.

[B]

Correct. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's a part of that, you know, applying the, the physicality to the visualization and the, and the, the adrenaline to the visualization because you start doing that and there's this misnomer that, you know, visualization is as good as practice, actual training and. Yeah, and, and it doesn't even approximate it unless you go in kind of crazy and, and tons of adrenaline and you're just there and you're, you're almost trick in the mind to believe that you're on this, the post, you're, you're in the shoot off, you're going up against Ricky, you're, I mean, you know that number of shooters I work with that go up against Hancock or you know, and they actually visualize that and then make them disappear. But when they, when it actually starts to happen, they get into shoot offs, they go, whoa, I've been here before. Yeah, I've been here before. It just feels good. And that adrenaline kicks in and obscures all this potential distractions all around you.

[A]

Well, I think, I think it's so important that you say that the visualization and the pre planning and the like the visualizing there with the Hancock in a shoot off or with Ricky in a shoot off or whatever that might be. Because what I've, you know, and I never studied, you know, the mind side of the game before when I started like at the beginning, like understanding these things. But what I found was I had to get in those situations and fail forward. So like I didn't know what to do or how to do it. So I was just getting in the situation and like, oh, this is my first shoot off with Ricky or my first shoot off with Sean Holly. My first shoot off with Dave Kelly. And I'd have to do it enough times and then I'd have to say, okay, I'm catching myself more worried about them. Okay, don't do that. Okay, I'm, I'm catching myself being nervous. Okay, work on that. Like, like you have to, like for me, I had to just go through and figure out what works and what doesn't work. Process of elimination through 10,000 times and you know, you're just getting people there before they have to go through that, that trial and tribulation of, you know, hey, you can visualize that shoot off before you ever get there. You can visualize a gold medal around your neck winning before you've ever been at the Olympics. I mean, and that's so powerful because I, I didn't do that in the beginning of my career. And I wish I would have, I wish I would have had, had the foresight to be like, okay, I, I can handle this. I can, I can go shoot off with these guys.

[B]

They're basically three skills. There's this, the skills that you have that you know, Ricky teaches. Yep, right. The basic, you know, gun mounts and, and move to the target and seeing the target, when to pick it up and all that kind of physical. Yeah. The, the physical, technical side of it is what I do, okay? And, and just learning how to make people disappear, that kind of thing. But there's a third skill and that's called competing. And the only way to get that, I mean, we can visualize all we like, but the only way to get competition skill is to go to a competition and throw shells and get angry and whatever happens there in your first few events. And then you go, okay, well, let's go back. I'm lacking in technical, I need to see my coach. Or I'm lacking in the mental, I just need to see Bob and then go to the next competition. And it's this upward spiral where you keep getting better and better and better at your game by dealing with it. But in my book I address that part of it, the game skill for teens. And I say, look it, you know, a lot of parents get upset when you're getting upset. And I say, well, look at it has to happen because once it happens, now you have something you can fix. You can use some of the tools in the book, the apps in the book to fix it and you will get better at your game. And I actually say at the end, leave this chapter open on the kitchen table for your parents to read. Because for those parents who get upset with their child not doing well, you know, look at the kids got, you know, enough self esteem that they go into the line and want to do well, right? They're putting themselves on the line, they're against their peers, they're, they're kind of in the face of, you know, teenage, you know, pressure on them. They're making this great effort doing the best they can. They're doing the best they can and embrace that. But okay, well, let's find ways to augment that or change it up.

[A]

I agree with that and I think that there's a, it's, it's hard because I see, I see the both ends of it from a parent's point of view where, you know, the game is expensive or they're investing in their child and they're like, okay, we want them to get scholarships or we want them to get sponsorships, or we want them to be the next, next Vinnie Hancock and this, that and the other thing. But no matter how much you want it for your kid, they've got to want it and they've got to put the work in. And if they don't have the desire or the drive, I don't care if you have a billion dollars, you can't make them want to Excel to that level unless it's their decision, their choice. And I think that's where there's a huge disconnect from. From either coaches or parents or whatever it might be. Because the people on top of the shooter want it more than the shooter wants it. And that never works.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And. And that's where parents. That goes back to that original. That other comment I made about parents need to be in the zone and. Yeah, so when the child is making a. Has made an error on the line, has missed a target, they turn around expecting their. Maybe their coach or their parent to give them, you know, thumbs down. But what if the parents is. Yeah, what? Yeah, right. But what if the parents is in the zone and doesn't lose? It looks like Ricky looks right now. And, and, and yeah, they turn around, see Ricky in the zone, just. And the kid goes, oh, he didn't miss.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. If a shooter. And I deal with this all the time with kids. I used to deal with my own son with Tyler when he was shooting high school and stuff, he'd miss, he'd turn around, he'd look at his mom. Finally one day, you know, Jody's like, you gotta quit looking at me. And then he would turn and don't. And that's where some kids, they constantly turn around and look. Well, they're looking for a reassurance or looking that. That's because, you know, they don't have the ability. One, but two, if the parent goes, well, then the kid's gonna miss more. Yeah, guaranteed. I mean.

[A]

Well, yeah, because it's embarrassing for them. I mean, I would think it would be embarrassing to go out there and fail on a target and then the person behind you is acknowledging that failure even more in a public setting. It's just.

[C]

I mean, that's why I teach them stay eyes forward eyes. You miss. Figure out why you missed real quick in that two seconds. Be gone. Hit the control delete button where. Zach, we don't have that, you know,

[A]

big delete, delete, delete, delete.

[B]

Three of them.

[A]

I've learned so much from this episode, Bob. I'm gonna put that. Delete. We're gonna have.

[C]

This is gonna be great, Bob. We're gonna have so much fun the next couple months. Well, starting in May when I get to start shoot, I'm teaching non stop, so it's. It is fun.

[B]

Yeah, no, I've enjoyed it, guys.

[C]

This is.

[A]

Well, Bob, you're.

[B]

You're a great guy.

[A]

I appreciate you sharing it. Sports Excel Inc. The website we're going to post the links, obviously the Amazon, get to the books and check you out and I'm sure people will get a hold of you. And, you know, we'd love to check in from time to time and see how you're doing. Maybe if you get a couple more trap shooter people to work with you, you can, and fill us in on how it's going and give us some new mental stuff for our listeners. You know, they're always asking us, you know, Ricky, Zach, you talk about the mental game, but what, you know, what can I do? What is that? You know, and you know, being clear, you know, Ricky, the fundamental, like you talked about, the three, the three pillars, the fundamental. What do you do? How do you do it? Ricky's the guy. And then the competitive going to the shoots, that's the other. But I think that other leg in the game is not focused on the mental side. I mean, there's people that actively have figured it out through years of trial and error. But, but it's not, it's not like it's studied the same way that, that, you know, maybe if you were a professional golfer, they're bringing in these coaches. Everybody's got one, everybody's got a guy.

[C]

You know, unfortunately, every professional golfer has a coach.

[A]

We're not making four to eight million dollars a year, though. So that's probably the difference, I would say. I mean, maybe, I don't know, delete, delete. But, but we're gonna, we're, we're gonna be fine.

[C]

Zach's always got jokes. It's funny.

[A]

We gotta keep it interesting. You know, these people aren't gonna freaking tune in for every Friday if we

[C]

don't have a joke.

[A]

Well, Bob, thank you for all the listeners. Thanks for bearing with us for this, for this hour and, and Happy Friday. Hope you got something out of the episode we're gonna see at the shoot near you soon. Say hi, wear your trap talk gear proud Ricky's rock classic, the classic hat. And, and Bob, we're probably gonna get you in a hat. We gotta, we gotta have you looking good. You know, you look like a polo guy. More than a hat, though. I'll probably get you one of these, but. Okay, but thank you so much, Bob. And, and anybody that has any questions, like Share, subscribe, send us messages. You know the drill. Happy Friday. We'll see you soon.

[C]

Good luck, everyone.

[B]

Bye now. Sam.