Trap Talk Trapshooting Tips - Part 2

Summary

Trap Talk From The Back Fence — "Trap Talk Trapshooting Tips - Part 2"

Hosts: Zach Nannini & Richard (Ricky) Marshall Jr.
Date: July 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this value-packed installment, Zach and Ricky bring together some of the top names in American trapshooting for a deep-dive roundtable on advanced shooting techniques, mental game mastery, and the subtle nuances that separate good shooters from the greats. With guests sharing their hard-fought wisdom, this episode focuses on mental preparation, technical adjustments, targeted drills, and practical solutions to common issues from missing tough targets to dealing with competition anxiety.

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Key Themes and Discussion Points

The Mental Game: Belief, Focus, and Emotional Control

• Building Confidence and Breaking Barriers

  • Zach shares how personal milestones—like breaking a 100-straight—shift your mental state from hope to belief.
    • Quote:

      "You have to do something to build belief. Now, if you've never done it, you have to believe that you can do it. But once you do it, it's like, well, I've already done this." — Zach (03:28)

• Staying Current: Focus on the Next Target

  • Sean emphasizes the importance of moving on after every shot, whether it's a hit or miss.
    • Quote:

      "The first thing I do, whether I smoke it, chip it, or miss it, in my head, I think to myself, how do I break the next target? ... That's all you have any control over." — Sean (11:39)

  • Rick underscores the danger of focusing on past mistakes or future outcomes.
    • Quote:

      "We don't worry about the past, we don't worry about the future. We worry about the now." — Rick (12:07)

• Performance Under Pressure

  • Accepting and channeling nerves: Kurt advises reframing in-competition adrenaline as excitement, not anxiety (13:40–14:57). Controlled breathing and acceptance of normal physical reactions are key.

• Concentration Chunks

  • Ian explains that even "a genius can only concentrate for 27 minutes," so target short, intense focus windows for each shot:
    • Quote:

      "You only need that three seconds per target. If you can do that, you can beat anybody." — Ian (10:01)

• Routine and Process

  • Repetition leads to success: Consistency in setup and shot execution is essential, especially under pressure (24:11, 25:18).

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Technical Insights: Hold Points, Gun Moves & Visual Focus

• Hold Point Adjustments

  • Dean discusses adjusting hold points depending on target height, gun speed, and personal feeling rather than a strict formula.
    • Quote:

      "It's kind of hard to give that number out just because I really don't base it off of that. I kind of just see how I'm breaking the target and kind of dial it in." — Dean (08:10)

• Gun Movement and Visual Tracking

  • After firing, shift your eyes immediately to the next target—don't linger watching the smoke ball (04:14).
  • All shooters agree: the first movement is lateral (left/right), not upward, challenging the common misconception that targets are always going up (30:42–31:28).

• Voice Calls & Microphone Placement

  • Consistent, minimal-effort calls work best for mics and prevent unnecessary body movement which can distract the eyes and break concentration (12:58–13:03, 31:32–32:11).

• Pre-Shot Routine and Mounting

  • A consistent pre-shot process, mounting the gun the same each time, increases reliability and confidence.
    • Dean's tip:

      "Coming up with a system to where you can mount the gun exactly the same every single time." (25:18)

  • Discussion of hand positions (extended left arm for more control) and influences from other shooting disciplines (26:03–26:40).

• Eye Placement & Soft Focus

  • Where you look before calling for the target is crucial; many prefer a soft focus just above or to the edge of the trap house for quicker target acquisition and less gun movement (62:17–63:29).
  • Individual adaptations are discussed, including coping with eye dominance/tape and adapting to light conditions (60:55–64:18).

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Real Match Scenarios: Adapting to Pressure and Environment

• Handling Misses and Maintaining Composure

  • Personal stories of losing focus after thinking an event was “in the bag” (68:07–68:30).
  • Both hosts and guests stress the need to shoot every target with the same focus, regardless of event position (68:30–69:41).

• Dealing with Environmental Factors

  • Shooting in windy conditions: Hold point stays on top of the house, emphasizing always having the target above the barrel for adaptability (46:57–47:26).
  • Adjusting for lighting or speed changes in targets—sometimes raising the eyes above the beads to avoid rushing the move (64:18).

• Style Variations

  • Jack breaks down his approach:
    • Holding higher above the house for singles and doubles, spot-shooting the first target in doubles, snapping quickly to handicap targets for faster moves (49:40–51:36).
  • Darren suggests consciously relaxing grip and trying to stay in “subconscious state” during high-pressure moments to avoid overthinking (51:54–52:58).

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Pro Tips, Notable Advice & Memorable Moments

• On Making Changes and Growth

  • Logan describes how a fitted stock and strategic practice resulted in significant leaps in average, underscoring the value of trying new things (41:19–42:18).

• Advice Against Self-Sabotage

  • Rick warns against short-selling yourself—success comes with persistence and openness to change (39:41–40:18).

• On Letting the Gun Move to the Target

  • Ricky’s advice for those with astigmatism or needing to favor the right eye: Hold the gun several inches off the house edge to catch the angle sooner (29:23–30:14).

• Getting Over Technical Hurdles

  • Always keep the gun still until you see direction. Never jerk or move on the call; this risks misreading the target’s angle—one of Leo Harrison’s core teachings (21:54–22:34).

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Select Quotes & Timestamps

• Belief After Achievement:

  "Once you do it, it's like, well, I've already done this."
  — Zach (03:28)

• Three-Second Focus:

  "You only need that three seconds per target. If you can do that, you can beat anybody."
  — Ian (10:01)

• Let Go of the Past:

  "We don't worry about the past, we don't worry about the future. We worry about the now."
  — Rick (12:07)

• Don’t Overthink the Pressure:

  "Try to change the framing of the physical thing you're feeling and completely accept the fact that your body is releasing adrenaline... and it's completely normal."
  — Kurt (13:40)

• On Track to Victory:

  "Just have that positive mindset, positive attitude that I don't care what's going on around me. I'm out here to break these targets, and I'm out here to win."
  — Joe (65:55)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Mental Game & Building Belief: 02:00–05:08
• Routine, Focus, and Emotional Control: 09:06–12:17, 13:22–15:01
• Technical Tips (Hold Points/Visual Focus): 06:22–08:35, 29:23–31:31, 62:17–64:54
• Match Pressure & Last-Target Mindset: 54:45–57:25, 68:07–69:41
• Adapting to Conditions (Wind/Light): 45:46–48:20
• Success Through Change: 41:19–42:18

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Notable Moments

• Ian’s “Three Seconds” Rule (10:01): A succinct summary of elite focus.
• Zach’s Last-Post California State Story (68:30): The perils of overconfidence.
• Practical Advice on Voice Calls and Microphone Setup (12:58–13:03, 31:32–32:11): Little details, big impact.
• Hands-On Visualization with the Shot Tracker (33:11–35:34): Using tech for feedback and seeing the “U” pattern on doubles.

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Final Takeaways

This episode is a gold mine for serious shooters and students of the sport, offering a realistic look at how top trapshooters think, adjust, and persevere through both technical and mental challenges. Listeners will find actionable advice to refine their technique, toughen their mental game, and learn from the champions—one target at a time.

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For more legendary tips, insider stories, and trapshooting community shout-outs, subscribe for future episodes of Trap Talk From the Back Fence.

Transcript

[Zach]

Welcome to season four of trap talk

[Rick]

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[Zach]

You know, Rick, I just love having the peace of mind and knowing that if I'm traveling or I'm flying, something happens, I can get my winig and my craig off replaced quickly and easily without costing me a bunch of money.

[Rick]

Yeah, exactly. The gun and trophy insurance, it's the best out there to ensure your guns, sure. Your trophy, animals, everything.

[Zach]

Thank you to the whole cushman family for supporting the show and everything they do for trap shooting.

[Rick]

Absolutely. Get a hold of Cole kushman and he'll get you set up.

[Zach]

You know, Rick, the only thing looks better than these hats we're wearing right now is a bunch of gold and silver from Ron Prescott at midstate precious metal. Show them the goods.

[Rick]

Listen, all I got silver right now. I won't bring the gold out for

[Zach]

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[Rick]

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[Zach]

He's a great guy. Support him. He supports all the shoots. He supports trap talk. If you're thinking gold or silver, you need to be thinking Ron prescott at midstate precious metals. Thank you, Ron.

[Rick]

That's right. Thanks for all the support.

[Zach]

You know, Rick, when you're riding around your air conditioning and your nice can am and I'm walking, I'm thinking to myself, where do I get one of these things?

[Rick]

At big red motorsports, that's where you get one. George or Jason Lee, they'll take care of you, Zach.

[Zach]

I mean, I need one. I'm tired of riding on the back of that cooler. I want to sit inside that cab and roll around in style. I mean, my face is on the back, but help me out.

[Rick]

Listen, I'm going to move your face to the bumper is where it's going to get moved for the new one.

[Joey]

Okay?

[Rick]

All you need is a little quiche and we can take care of you. But listen, Big RedMotorsports.com thanks Jason and George lee and big red motorsports for all the support. They'll take care of you folks and it's free delivery.

[Zach]

Were you working on, on your mental game? What are the things that you're doing when you get into those high pressure situations where you're like, okay, shooting off for the doubles championship of the world. Shooting off with the clay target. Yeah, I'm about to run 300 straight. What are the things that you're working through to get you through those areas where most people are failing. I'm, I mean, I just go out and I just, I got to be calm, and, I mean, everyone's got to be calm. But I guess I just strive for, you know, I have, you know, I broke 50 straight handicap. I broke that 75 handicap. And the day prior to breaking that 100 handicap, for instance, I broke a 99 and missed on the first track.

[Rick]

So you ran.

[Zach]

So I ran 75. And the first 25, we shot 50 a house. That day, I broke 25. And I just was, you know, I joked around. I mean, the guys I shoot with, they know I, I, I'm not as serious as a lot of people are. I like to talk and bs, have a good time. But when you get on the line, you know, you get serious. I mean, you know, it was like when we were at the Blue and gray, we had a good time. Absolutely one of the funnest times I ever had. But anyways, you know, I told myself, we're up 25, and I told so and so on my squad. I was like, man, I broke 100 straight, you know, 75 a day.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Mentally. You did.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And that's what matters is mentally. And I think what you said is such a big piece of information. You go back to what you did before.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Because you have to do something to build belief. Now, if you've never done. If you've never done it, you have to believe that you can do it. Yeah. But once you do it, it's like, well, I' already done this.

[Rick]

Well, the mental aspect of this game is so important, and, and we should do just, like, hours of an episode on that. But it is where you always have to go back to what you've accomplished or what you've done, no matter if it's good or bad. Okay, you go. Okay. Yep, I've done that. Okay, but we're gonna do this the

[Zach]

eyes at the same time. I mean, what's the thought once you smoke ball that first one? The thought there is honestly, a lot of times, as soon as you pull the trigger, I should already start shifting the eyes, because if you' for that smoke ball, you have sat there way too long.

[Ian]

You don't you.

[Zach]

The smoke ball is in peripheral vision as you're moving those eyes, so immediately trying to lock on. I'm moving my eyes first. If you trust that your gun shoots where you're looking, then move your eyes, and your gun will, will match your eyes eventually. And I think that's a, a brain to Finger, you know, attachment there that you've got to know. My eyes are there, but my gun is also there.

[Rick]

Yes, absolutely.

[Kurt]

Yeah.

[Jack]

And.

[Zach]

And I think we all shoot that exactly the same way. Once we break the first target, it's just get the eyes over there as quick as humanly possible and don't bother, you know, looking around the gun. And, you know, I. I mean, I've seen a couple Ricky Mouse, Ricky Marshall smiles and Zach and any smiles on the squad when we really lay our first one out too hard and then you're looking at it and you're like, oh, that ain'.

[Sean]

You got.

[Zach]

You gotta. You gotta just get over there and look at that other bird. Because, I mean, I tell you, sometimes Ricky hits him so damn hard on that first shot that that his second shot's just a little slower. And I'm like, I bet he was looking at that because that was kind

[Rick]

of cool, you know. You know why that is? Do you know why that is, hitting those targets hard on that first one? No, I see Choke teaching today, but here's why. The old FIS all the blue.

[Zach]

Hey, you know what? You're. You're outnumbered today. We got that STS green just pumping out smoke everywhere.

[Rick]

Listen, you got one grand ring between you. Okay?

[Zach]

We'll call you back when we're 50.

[Rick]

I didn't hear you, Zach. I didn't hear you.

[Zach]

We'll call you back when we're 50. We'll see. I think we. I think we can. I think we can do good with some time behind us. Me and Logan will get some. I know you've said before that your hold points and handicap are off the house. Is that still current? I mean, because your handicap's been getting better and better. Is there anything that you've changed as far as your hold points or where you're looking or all that stuff, or kind of walk us through what you're doing currently.

[Dean]

So my hold points have state. I should say they. I mean, they. The base has stayed the same. I will say this year, I would say I've had a higher hold point just because if targets are higher, I am one to raise my hold point. If the targets are lower, I will lower it. So I think this year, at least from. At least the way I like targets, I thought the targets were on the high side most of the time I shot. So this year I was holding a higher gun just from. Just from that standpoint. But if the targets were normal, I would have been still just barely off the trap house like I usually am.

[Zach]

So so what's, what's a higher? Like if you're saying, okay, this is a high bird today, a high set at Sparta, which, I mean, their high set might be, you know, 15 instead of, you know, 9 to 11. Right. I mean, let's say it's a few notches up over the, over the, the sweet spot. How high above the house do you think you're actually holding?

[Dean]

So again, that's kind of hard to say. So I, I kind of judge my whole point off of my base hold points. My base hold point is about a bead or two beads, you know, width above the trap house. So kind of just right on that front edge of the trap house is my main hold point. And if I'm breaking the target, say, I don't know how, I don't know if I am, but, you know, say if I'm breaking the target 15ft, you know, out from the trap house, but the targets are higher, I'm going to raise the hold point to where it seems like I'm breaking in the same spot as a normal spot. So it could be, it could be a day where the, the targets could be the same height on Monday and the same height on Tuesday. But my hold points a little, and they're on the high side, but I'm, you know, swinging a little bit slower for some reason or whatnot. I'm gonna probably have a higher hold point than on Monday. So.

[Zach]

I see. So it's so, so if, if I could break this down and articulate it. It's, it's the, it's the, it's the difference in the move from where you start to where you break it.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Zach]

And Maybe that's a 15 foot move and your move stays the same and you're moving that up and down based on gun speed and based on target height.

[Dean]

Yeah. Yep. So you could have two days where they're set at 15, you know, 15ft. But it seems like I'm moving the gun slower. I'm probably going to have a slight, not, not a lot higher, but, you know, slightly higher than the day before. So it's kind of hard just to say, oh, the targets are four foot taller. I'm going to raise my whole point two inches. It's kind of, kind of hard to give that number out just because I really don't base it off of that. I kind of just see how I'm breaking the target and kind of dial it in.

[Rick]

It's how you're breaking them.

[Jim]

Right.

[Rick]

It's how you're breaking how you're seeing the target, you know, acquiring it. So you're going to adjust your move from there.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Zach]

If you're breaking them low, do you raise the whole point?

[Dean]

If I'm breaking them faster than normal, I probably won't. Just.

[Ian]

Oh, it's a quarter angle. I'm going to leave three. No, no, it's a reflex reaction.

[Darren]

Yep.

[Ian]

But you need that three seconds. So, you know, to shoot 25 targets having. What do you need a minute?

[Rick]

You're just. Yeah, honestly, you're over just over a minute.

[Ian]

And that three seconds, you have to be completely constant. Something comes in your mind, you got to put the gun down. That's hard to do, you know, how many times have you made a bad mount? Ah, you know.

[Zach]

Oh, did what?

[Ian]

How, how many times you have to do that? You know? Hundreds, hundreds. Until you say, you know, I want to win this goddamn thing. They better not bring the gun down, you know, slow pull, fast pull. You know, I, I got beat out of the grand because of a puller. So I went home and I said they had pullers. I said, I mounted gun, give me a second over the gun and then you pull the target. So I used to take really bad pulls because I was just asking for the bird. I didn't care when it came.

[Rick]

When it came up.

[Ian]

I didn't care when it came. I taught myself to shoot the bird. You know, people go, oh, and they look for the bird. I'm looking for the bird before I start. But you need that three, three seconds or that amount of time, you know, you have to learn. You know, there's a lot of things that I teach that I, that I've learned, but that don't try to concentrate for an hour. To shoot this, you only need that three seconds per target. Yep. If you can do that, you can beat anybody.

[Rick]

That's pretty good advice, honestly.

[Zach]

Great advice.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

I mean, that three second window, and I think so many people are trying to put the blinders on for the whole event, and you get.

[Ian]

A genius can only concentrate for 27 minutes. A genius. I only want 73 seconds of target when I'm working hard, I only want that three seconds.

[Rick]

Dwell on the, the chunks as you know, I mean, we know, like, okay, we chip it. All right, we need to do something, get into a little more.

[Zach]

That's it.

[Rick]

But when people do that, they.

[Sean]

Oh, okay, so, so here's what I do. Because people, and you see it all the time, whether it be singles, handicap or doubles, you know, they, they miss a target or they chunk a target or whatever. You know, it's in their head, they're thinking about it. When they miss it, they throw a shell. They, you know, they. They get mad, whatever. That's the worst thing you can do. Because this game is all about being able to control your emotions. And he who controls their emotions the best and is a good pointer of the shotgun, he's going to win a lot of stuff.

[Joey]

That is correct.

[Sean]

So the first thing that I do, whether I smoke it, chip it, or miss it, in my head, I think to myself, how do I break the next target? What do I need to do to break the next target? And that gets me off of that last one and back on to the only target that I have any control over, which is the next.

[Rick]

The current target that we're going to shoot.

[Zach]

Exactly.

[Sean]

That's all you have any control over. You can't do anything about the future. You can't do anything about the past, but you can get your mind right to shoot the one you're about to

[Rick]

shoot each target, what you're shooting. That's what I always tell all my students and all my students I've been teaching lately. They've heard this. We don't worry about the past, we don't worry about the future. We worry about the now.

[Sean]

That's right.

[Rick]

Because if you worry about anything else, your mind's not on what you're supposed to do. All right, now on to post four. So one of the other things, too, is we really haven't talked about is the mic placement. Okay. I hear this a lot with people or see it. A lot of clubs not getting targets correctly, you know, and. And someone will have the mic, you know, way out there. Well, yeah, the mic's supposed to work, but do they always work as, you know, Sean, you're the manager, you. They don't always work all the time perfectly. So you always say for me, this is, I put that mic right here. If I put it on the right side, sometimes it'll be closer underneath, so my voice will hit it.

[Sean]

But sometimes your gun can interfere with it.

[Rick]

Well, exactly. And the one thing too is I see a lot of people, they'll have the mics off to the side and they're pull, pull. Oh, and they call different than, you know, throwing a target than when they actually call. They're like, I don't know what's wrong. I'm like, call the same way that you're going to get the target with the gun mounted. So make sure that Mike's in A good spot. That's what I would recommend.

[Kurt]

Yeah. And I'll say to Kurt, as a guy who's dealt with, like, a ton of anxiety, and I have this exact reaction when it's coming into competition time, one of the things that you can do is you need to remind yourself that the physical reaction you're having is completely normal.

[Zach]

It you.

[Kurt]

Your adrenaline's kicking in, you're getting excited, actually acknowledge it. So, yeah, if you can change it from that kind of negative anxiety feeling into excitement, butterflies, Here we go. This is what I came here to do. I'm about to have a great time. Try to shift that mindset. Then the heart racing. If you had just won a million dollars and won the lottery, your heart would be racing, but you would have no negative feelings about your heart being racy. You'd be like, this is amazing. Right. Just try to change the framing of the physical thing you're feeling and completely accept the fact that your body is releasing adrenaline and it increases your heart rate, increases your breath, and it's completely normal. And if you don't focus on that, you can get your focus back to the bird. Because what's happening is you're coming to the line. You're a little focused internally on the physical sensations you're feel feeling, whereas you need to be focused on the bird. Right. So you miss that first bird, now the pressure's off, your mind goes, oh, well, we can't run a hundred now. So now I'll just go back to shooting. And then you just dial in. You have to circumvent that process and go, okay, I'm excited, but I'm going to keep my focus on this bird and go straight to your mechanics and just bypass that judgment that you have about the physical thing that you're feeling in your body.

[Joe]

Right.

[Ian]

At that point.

[Kurt]

Do that. You can get your focus right back to the bird.

[Zach]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Kurt]

You can put a routine together.

[Jim]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And what Zach was saying about the.

[Kurt]

Yeah, yeah. And it makes a huge difference. And Zach was bringing up the breathing. When you breathe fast, it increases your heart rate.

[Ian]

Okay.

[Kurt]

Because your body has to circulate the blood and process that oxygen. So breathing in and ex exhaling that breath slowly or even just kind of manually slowing down your breathing will automatically lower your heart rate. So there's some physical things you can do to circumvent that. But if you just give it a positive mindset of like, oh, I'm excited. I'm excited to go shoot trap. I'm excited to start this round. I'm excited about the possibility then your mindset will change too.

[Rick]

And I think he's getting himself worked up.

[Kurt]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, naturally. Yeah, yeah.

[Rick]

He's overthinking the process. So don't overthink the process. You know, go out and just, hey, I'm going out. We're going to shoot one target at a time.

[Kurt]

And then Tiger Track home of Dan Benillas.

[Zach]

I know him.

[Kurt]

Okay, so this John is writing in and he's saying, my question is this. When should trap shooters begin their move to the target? I've heard some instructions say, keep the gun at home until you see the target clearly, while others say, begin your move to the target on the flash of the target, but only pull the trigger when the target is clear and in focus. What's the best. Best method? Stay home or chase it down? And PS Please interview Dan Venias on the podcast.

[Zach]

We're trying to.

[Rick]

Of course, we got to see Dan at the. At the shot show. It was great to see Dan. So first thing you want to do is as soon as this is how I shoot, being down on the house, as soon as I see a flash of color, I am moving. And as soon as I make my move and I'm matching the speed, everything clears up and bang, dead target. So that's what you want to do now, as far as if you stay home to stay on the house and then wait for it to be clear, you're going to be so much of a disconnect away from the barrel that it's going to be a stab move. So people that do that a little bit are more of the high gun holders that they're looking under their barrel, and as soon as it's rising up, oh, it clears up. And then they make a slight move and pull the trigger. Me personally, I'm wanting to come from underneath the target so I always see the target.

[Kurt]

Yeah.

[Zach]

I'm going to echo what Rick. Rick just said. I think that's a perfect analogy. I think the most important thing is holding still when you called pull.

[Rick]

Yep.

[Zach]

So that you could see the target.

[Darren]

Right.

[Zach]

And then from there, you move when you move. Now.

[Rick]

Yes.

[Zach]

Now I will say there's times where I'm seeing the target and as it's coming out, I'm coming out with it instantaneously. And there's times where. Yeah, and there's. And there's times where I might be at the house a millisecond longer until my eyes really lock onto it a little bit better. And then I Make the move. But it's never sitting at the house and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. I mean, it's not you. You know, you're not doing that. I mean, you're pretty much going to the flash or at least starting to move to the flash, and then things are clearing up as you're getting there. And with the exception of holding a lot higher, I think some parallels that you could put into it is how fast do you move the gun and how high?

[Rick]

So.

[Zach]

Well, yeah, I mean, I did read that, and I kind of chuckled because I don't think we'd be bringing it up today if he didn't put it in this article. But I read it's got little air quotes, and it says, I thought I could beat Rick. And I said, well, you know, sometimes you think you can, sometimes you can't. I mean, it is what it is. But.

[Rick]

But now. Now talking about that spot, you know, is. And this is a prime deal for our shooters out there, is. You know, Tim said it, you know, right in that article. He said he remembers his. His mindset changed. It was a distraction that cost him a target, you know. Well, and. And that is true anytime. It's. It's just like me, you know, when Harlem missed, I was like, oh, but I went, okay, you got to do your job. Finish your job. And then I did. And where Tim. It let him get the best of him.

[Zach]

I've had that happen myself. And you have to think. I mean, now we're getting technical and we're getting education side, which I really love for the show. But if you're in that position, you're like, okay, that's Ricky Marshall, that's Leo Harrison, that's Sean Holly, that's Foster Barthel, whoever. And you're like, that's the one I'm worried about. You're giving them power. Instead of focusing on what you need to be focusing on, you're giving them. You're. You're taking your mind and you're saying, oh, well, that's Dagan Voitman, that's Ian Lawrence, that's whoever.

[Rick]

And.

[Zach]

And you're giving them strength when you do that. So at the end of the day, you have to be in a position where you're not really thinking about who is on the line at all. And even if it gets to the point where they miss a bird, and it's like, okay, I've got a couple more to go till I win this thing, you can't even be really thinking about the bird they miss because a lot, nine times out of 10, if you're like, oh, they're down one and I just got to clean these out, then boom, you squirt one, right? What if you're just focused on what do I have to do to break these targets in front of me and make sure that they get broken no matter what, Regardless of what anyone's doing, the better. I think some of the best shoot offs I've had where I ended up winning, thankfully, were multi field shoot offs where I didn't know who was shooting what on the other fields. Because you could have everyone miss on your field, but you're like, it doesn't matter, you know, because especially like in the clay target, you know, you've got 45, you know, people or 50 people out there shooting with 200 straights. So you could have everyone on your field miss, but for some reason in the clay target, it doesn't affect your mind because you're just like, this is me versus the target. Where if you get one or two guys on the field, you're like looking over and it's like, okay, what's that guy doing? You know, it. Did he missed? Did he not miss? I just, I always feel a little bit better when I'm just out there by myself or I'm not thinking about anything to do with trying to beat the person that's on the field with me. In, in his words, what were the. What is that? Like, how do you properly point at a target? Because people are going to hear that and be like, okay, Ian, give me the juice. Like, what is, what is that? What does that mean? You know, I. I mean, I think that means something different for everybody, but for me, that means, you know, looking at the target and not jerking or especially like one of the biggest things is don't move your gun as you call pull. Like, that's a huge killer, you know, people, it covers up the target. You don't see it. That's how you misread angles. You know, there's a lot of bad habits that start right at the beginning when you call pull, that can affect how it comes out afterwards. So you're laser still. Laser still. When you hold, you know, for the target before you call pull, I don't want any movement. And then when you call pull, no movement until you see direction correct. And that was one of Leo's teachings. Did you know that before that class? Or was that kind of like, okay, here's the aha moment.

[Rick]

Yeah, he just said, I just throw the gun up and Shoot.

[Zach]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Rick]

No, that's. And honestly, that's, you know, I'm teaching here. This. Well, today I taught, and tomorrow I'm teaching, too, up here in Ohio at Joey's home club. But it's a. It's interesting. We talked about this today with. Everybody's moving their gun on their call because of the voice calls. You have to keep that gun still, people. If you keep it still, you'll break targets. You definitely don't want to do the bang pull move.

[Jim]

Oh, no.

[Zach]

Oh, no, that's. That's a bad move.

[Rick]

That's Joey's move, Ian. He did the Southern Grand. He went bangpoke.

[Zach]

The gun was empty and the target came out. That's all I know. What are you gonna do?

[Rick]

What are you gonna do?

[Joey]

Very.

[Zach]

You know, I like that he's just back there like the peanut gallery. I mean, right now he looks. He looks a little sad. Normally he's, you know, on the show, we're interviewing him, we're telling him how great he is. Now we got somebody that's kicking the crap out of him over here and just, you know, hey, you just stay back there, Joey.

[Rick]

It's one of those things. If you keep that gun still, I mean, it proves a point. When we were down at the. At the Southern on Sunday's handicap, you know, Joey Brooke, 99, a stellar 99,

[Zach]

one of the best ones I've seen.

[Rick]

And the gun was. I mean, he didn't do the bang pole then, you know, but that's one of the things that people can just keep their guns still. You'd break more targets, but, you know, you would be. I would say. I mean, I was a protege of Frank Copy, which, you know, was best friends with Leo. And I learned a lot from Leo prior to him teaching. You know, this was years before he taught. I would just ask dumb questions as a dumb kid.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Rick]

And he'd give an answer, and I'd be like, oh.

[Zach]

I'm like, oh. And, Frank, it's, you know, that you do, but it's. It looks the same every time, and it takes about at the same time every time. I bet if we were to time it, it'd probably be within a second one way or the other from when you call poll. I mean, have you really worked on refining that process and that timing, or is it just natural to you?

[Dean]

Yes, I've really worked on. I think the most important thing is obviously seeing the target. But I think a lot of things, people rush or don't take the time as Your pre shot. I mean, if you. If your gun's not mounted correctly or if you're not Eisner not set in the right spot, I mean, it just. You're already off to a bad start. So I think a lot of people kind of. I shouldn't say overlook, but, you know, I think a lot more people do it, but they don't emphasize it as much as I think they should. I think there's a lot to be gained in the pre shot routine.

[Zach]

Then what are the things that you're trying to do in that pre shot routine? Like. Like as far as the way you keep your head up, the way you mount to the gun, the pressure, like, what are the things that you would say are the Dean Voitman tips for how you create that success?

[Dean]

Yes, I think coming up with a system to where you can mount the gun exactly the same every single time. So that's kind of how you see how it kind of like roll, you know, I don't know how to explain it, but I kind of kind of roll the shoulder. I kind of roll the shoulder. For me, I found like if I do that, I can kind of always mount the gun in the same sp.

[Ian]

Time.

[Dean]

That's going to feel comfortable. It's going to feel the same. And it just again, it puts you off to a good start. Since the first thing you need to do is mount the gun, I think so.

[Rick]

Well, and when you do that. So, Dan, when we were shooting at Iowa in the shoot off, you know, I was watching that as I do. I mean, I watch targets, but I'll look over and see. And you do shoot with your left arm completely extended straight.

[Dean]

Yep.

[Rick]

So in that, you know, when you do that, it reminds me of Billy Beautin ball, which I know, you know, Billy Beauty Ball, the. The skeet shooter. World champion skeet shooter. Good friend of ours, you know, but that's how he shoots skeet. And then he shot trapped that way. But he always struggled a little bit handicapped because he was always, you know, being slow, where you're not slow. I mean, you're your. Your reaction time. Of course, you know, what are you now, 23?

[Dean]

Yeah, 23. Yes.

[Rick]

You know, more than half my age. So, you know, but it does help. But have you always shot that way with your hand that way?

[Dean]

I've always shot with extended. Maybe not always that extended. I've kind of noticed over the years that it just really helps me control the gun, you know, I mean, we're not shoot. It's not a precise sport but you also got to be precise. So I kind of like having my hand out there so I can really control the gun a lot better than if it was close to the receiver.

[Zach]

I just love the way they're covering all the shoots across the country. The content, the pictures, what they're doing online, what they're doing on Facebook, Instagram. What do you think?

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Rick]

Traption usa, it's a great magazine. They are the official magazine of our podcast and we are the official podcast of Traption usa. So we really appreciate it.

[Zach]

That's really cool. And what they got is a deal right now. If you put Trap Talk P in for the print version and Trap Talk D for the digital version, it's 19.99 for the print and 9.99 for the digital for one year. You're not going to find a better deal. So subscribe today. You won't regret it.

[Rick]

Absolutely. Thank you for all the support.

[Zach]

You know, Ricky, I know you used it on your barrels, but you even know what RGS stands for?

[Rick]

No, Zach, what does it stand for?

[Zach]

Really good.

[Rick]

Well, that is true. It is good stuff, folks. I use it to clean my barrels and it does make them shine.

[Zach]

Only problem is I wear white T shirts when I clean my barrels and I get them all messy, so I got to be better at that. But it gets all the plastic, all the gunk out. Give them a try for folks.

[Rick]

They're great.

[Sean]

That's right.

[Rick]

Give RGS a try. We appreciate all the support. Hey Zach, have you been out to 73 Pointers Ranch lately?

[Zach]

You know I have. Rick and Carla Burke have been great. I normally hunt pheasants and chucker down there, but now they got a brand new sporting clays facility and it is top notch. I shot it the other day, absolutely loved it. And if you guys haven't, you need to go give it a check out.

[Rick]

Well, I'll have to come out and do a little hunting and we'll shoot some sort of clays then.

[Zach]

45 minutes from St. Louis Airport. Come see it if you haven't. Guys, check them out. Hey Rick, we got to take a second. We got to thank Outlaw Engineering and the Freston family for supporting Trap shooting and supporting Trap Talk podcast. They've been here for us. They're great people, you know. You know them real well, Rick.

[Rick]

Yeah, I. I've known Randy since 1988, R2 and. And the family, they're great supporter of the show coupe. Just won the Autumn grand handicap championship with a 97.

[Zach]

I know. I was There I got to interview him.

[Joey]

It was great.

[Zach]

I was so proud of him. He's doing a great job.

[Joey]

Where's Coop?

[Zach]

He's somewhere with that big buckle. He's having fun.

[Rick]

So that's.

[Zach]

You need anything engineering related, get a hold of Outlaw. They'll take great care of you.

[Rick]

Great folks, thanks for all the support.

[Zach]

Outlaw leading.

[Kurt]

You go to post five, you get all lefts, you know, so the, yeah, the great thing is, yeah, just post up on a. On, you know, you know that left side or right side, wherever you're having those problems. But Rick, you, at the beginning though, you did bring up something. And I think just because we have a lot of new listeners every week, maybe we could just from not going from a sustained lead side of things. But can we just revisit your methodology on you put the gun on the house, you know, like what, what's your

[Zach]

move to the bird?

[Rick]

Oh, for me, on post one, I actually hold the gun out 3, 4, 5, 6 inches on the left side. I've done that when I had astigmatism in my right eye and still do to correct so my right eye could see it first versus my left eye taken over because I was missing less. And that was before fat traps.

[Ian]

Okay.

[Rick]

So there was no way to sit there and, and throw a consistent left

[Ian]

to figure it out.

[Rick]

And I was like, well, heck, I'm just gonna move out my right eye.

[Ian]

I see it. Boom.

[Zach]

How many years, Rick, how many years before you came off the house?

[Rick]

What's that?

[Zach]

How many years ago did you make that adjustment? It's been a while now.

[Rick]

I was, I was in maybe 20 years old. So I've been doing that.

[Joe]

Okay.

[Zach]

You know, so it's been a long time off the left side. Just on the left.

[Rick]

I just kept it there. And you watch. If you stand behind me on post one, especially in handicap, you know, I'm holding out, you know that far. I see that target and come. And sometimes that's how I, I can get that left angle. If it's just that little quarter, I mean I can. And sometimes I'll miss it because I see it so quick.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Rick]

So that's when I got it. So if I get a straightaway, I was told, you know, you go back across parallel with the house and then right up. So you're coming up the target. Yeah.

[Zach]

If you come, if you come up, you're going to burn it and miss it from behind. You got to come over. And that's where a lot of people mess up. They don't come over enough. People are too concerned with going up to the angle. And then they get on the back side of it and they short shoot it where you have to get to the other side of the bird.

[Kurt]

This is not talked about enough. No, you never hear this talked about enough. Because when in trap, you hear like, well, all the targets are going up. That's. Everything's going up. I'm down on the house, you know. You know, I think what's not talked about enough is that a majority, high percentage of the time, your first move is more of a parallel left, right move than up right. It's never just kind of up first and then over. And I think a lot of people are missing that. That is a conscious thing that you need to think about and work on.

[Sean]

Right.

[Kurt]

I mean, you have to come across.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Honestly, that.

[Rick]

That's why I talk about it all the time, is saying the word pull

[Zach]

moves your mouth.

[Rick]

Correct. You can go, but it's a lower. So that's why I go, yeah.

[Zach]

Or ah. Right. Something.

[Rick]

You know, it's.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Or ah.

[Rick]

Nothing moves. Anytime anything moves on the face, the eye automatically goes right to the beat.

[Zach]

Correct?

[Jack]

Correct.

[Joey]

So.

[Zach]

So I mean, there's. With this. I mean, Sean Hawley talks about this. Never say pull. I mean, you don't want to say anything that's going to jar. And I think these people, we call them hog callers, where they're.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And they, you know, they kind of, you know, they kind of. They kind of, you know, it's kind of like they're freaking Montana, right? You know, they're over there and they set. They set mics off four fields down, and you're like, holy hell, man, what are you doing? And I can promise you, you are not doing yourself any favors, because if you have to. If you have to, you know, aggressively, you know, battle cry, battle cry to get this target out. You're shaking, you know, your whole body's moving, Right. What we want is we want the eyes to be still, the gun to be still and to see the bird. So I would say the. The best thing you could do, the least amount of effort, the least amount of effort you can get the noise out that makes the mic work would be fantastic. And Jimmy Heller, when he was having trouble with mics, he used to have a little microphone. So he'd. He. He'd do a speaker. He'd run the speaker, and the speaker would run up to his stock, and he could just go or whatever, and it would amplify it in the Mic and he had the. The speaker down by his waist and he pointed the speaker at the mic.

[Ian]

I've seen that.

[Joey]

So here goes the video. So there's the first shot come down and over there's a second shot. If we come back to trigger pull advance, it goes to dust. And the really cool thing on the plot graph, like you mentioned earlier, you can see that swooping up motion coming from the previous shot. Suppose we kind of click forward here, can come over. Boom.

[Rick]

And you.

[Joey]

I mean, you centered the pattern on the clip.

[Rick]

See the loop, though, that's the main thing, that's what I like to show people is you need to bring that barrel down and come back up.

[Zach]

And you also notice on that on the bottom right there where it says the Correction.

[Joe]

Yep.

[Jim]

Is 9 o'.

[Zach]

Clock. 2 inches.

[Rick]

2 inches. If I'd have been. If I'd have been over just a little bit more. But it's okay. You know what I always say, a line on the paper is a break.

[Joey]

Yeah.

[Zach]

That was you trying to show us an explanation again.

[Rick]

Exactly.

[Zach]

You'd have been right on. It's okay.

[Joey]

We're going to go to shot 39. So this is kind of from the other side of the. The trap. And you can see your motion here in the pattern plot as it's playing out. Pretty much just coming straight up to that clay. I mean, boom. Let's go play it here. Waiting, waiting, waiting. Boom. And you can see it just gets obliterated. Come back. There's trigger pull.

[Rick]

That is post four or five. What shot number is that? One? Jim or Robert? Sorry. 39. So that have been. Yeah, post four. Yeah, that was supposed.

[Joey]

And now we're going to go look at the second shot here, number 40. So we'll let it set up. And because they're so quick, we're actually going to see the first shot and then the second shot. We're going to play it here.

[Rick]

And this field was off to the

[Zach]

left too, by the way.

[Rick]

Or to the right.

[Zach]

It was off.

[Rick]

Oof. Look at that money shot.

[Joey]

We have dust. The interesting thing is if you go back and start again, you'll see that U motion you're talking about. Boom. Come down and up. And that's also shown over here on the right in the pattern plot. Your five, four, three, two, one. That's swooping up, moving over from the first clay clouds.

[Zach]

Are you seeing the breakpoints change or the way you approach a target change at all versus on a bluebird day when light is absolutely perfect.

[Ian]

I.

[Rick]

So to me, I mean there. So no target is shot the same way. I, I shoot when I'm on the target. So this target might be pull bang, the next target might be pulled bang. So it's all about letting your eyes see the target and then moving, you know, that's why, you know, I like holding on the house. I don't like looking down under the gun because the hands get in the way, the barrel gets in the way. You know, all these things, you're waiting on a target that there's anticipation there, there's anxiety there, there's, you know, so for me, I just keep everything the same. No matter the time of year or the gun club I'm shooting at, you know, I just, when I see that target, I make my move on the line and, and shoot it. So I mean, you could say, you

[Zach]

know, I think that keeps it simplest. But from what you said, you shoot it when you see it. So if for some reason you're not seeing it as close to the house, it's not getting broke as close to the house versus if you're seeing it, you know, right off.

[Rick]

But there's no, there's no, there's no correct timing or no correct place to shoot the target. And, and that's, you know, if anybody says there is, I, I go agree with them because I've not seen to where you have to break a target. Here, here, here, here.

[Zach]

Well, tell you have to break a target here to Brett Robinson and Joey Charnigo, right? Like, like, that's like, you know, these things, they're breaking as they're coming out of the house. They're getting smoked back into the house and you're like, okay. And then, you know, you've got other people like Bob Munson where that, you know, they're riding those things out across the prairie and they're, you know, on the way down. So I mean, these are, you know, obviously great shooters on both ends of it and, and have made it work. Some are more methodical, some are more aggressive and more instinct. But I think at the end of the day, it's whenever the gun gets to the target, it's whenever you feel like you're there and whenever, whenever you see it.

[Rick]

Well, and you, you, you mentioned Brent and Joey and look at, look at, you know, I mean, you, you had a hell of a run towards the end of the year to get your singles average back up over 99. So I commend you on that. And that's part of the, you know, just maturity and more experience in shooting Versus, you know, back in the day, I mean, my scores, it might, might have had years where I had average 99, but towards the end of the year I might have, you know, broke a 195 in there just because I'm like not, I'm not cognizant of what's going on, so to speak. So now every time I go out it, it's target management. You know, I'm going on a run and you're shooting and you miss a target and it's like, oh, well, most people like, man, well now it's, now the target management kicks in of, okay, that's the only miss that's going to happen. Let's really dig these targets out.

[Zach]

I love that. And that brings up an important topic. And I think that some people, they're going out to win events and then once they don't win an event or they know they're out of winning the event, the wheels, the fly off, they're just like completely fly off, fly off. I mean, so you go from, you know, running the first 20, 30 birds in a row and then you miss one and you're like, okay, hold it together. You miss another one and now you're down six and you're like, holy crap, what happened? And the only thing I can think is emotions get involved, right? Because you want, you want to win. Everybody wants to win. I mean that's, that's definitely what we're trying to do. I mean, I don't think there's any one person that goes to the range and says, I would hate it if I won today, right? I think everyone. Now there's some people that say maybe I don't have the ability to win or maybe I, I can't win right now based on what's going on with my setup, my gun, my equipment, my training, my, my whatever. But I don't think anybody doesn't like the idea of winning.

[Rick]

And well, I think you, you bring up a good point there. Of. Here's what I've been seeing a lot of with students is short selling yourself. You know, I'm not good enough to do this. I'll never be this. I'll listen. When I first started this game in 1986, 7, 8, whatever it was as far as like shooting in 86, I think, or 87, then I registered in 88. I was no club champion, let alone an all American and a world champion.

[Logan]

Well, the first major change was in his 19 or 20 is when I bought my krieg off. Bought a K80 trap special. That helped a bunch after that. A lot of practice, a lot of practice in the winter time. I used to be a really, really quick single shooter and almost trap targets. And when you got a really nice target, it worked pretty well. And when you didn't, it didn't work. So I knew I had to fix that. So I slowed down tremendously compared to what I used to be and became a lot more deliberate and that helped tremendously. And then it was three years ago at the grand now I went and got fitted for a winnick and that. That was a complete game changer. I hadn't until then I'd never broke a 99 in the handicaps. And I got my stock fitted and went out with the, with the pattern, and within three or four days I broke a 99 in the, in the caps.

[Rick]

So then that was. That was 22.

[Logan]

What's that?

[Rick]

That was in 20. 22.

[Logan]

22. Yep.

[Rick]

Okay.

[Logan]

Yep, yep, yep. So that.

[Zach]

Yeah, because your handicap average shot from 87, 15 that year. Yep, all the way 91 to 91. And then the next year went into 93. So, like, you picked up four birds in one year and handicap average and picked up another two the following year. So, I mean, there was some significant, like, you don't always see significant jumps. And when we did the Keith Ditto episode, you know, there was one year his singles average went from 93 to 99. I mean, there was this just significant jump. And I always want to pick into knowing, like, what are those little tweaks? Because I think there's people that listen to the show and, you know, they're afraid to change things or adjust things. And I mean, you were a great shooter in the average scheme of things. And then you became like really, really, really, really, really good within the time of one year.

[Logan]

Yeah, well, you. And I think you said it there. A lot of people are afraid to change things. They get complacent and their mindset becomes, well, it's not horrible and I don't want to change anything and make it worse. So they just leave it as is and they don't know what could happen. And I here in the past couple years, like I said, we've done a lot of practice and, and a lot of not so much adjusting, but you adjust a little and then you shoot a while at it, and then you adjust a little more and shoot a while at it. And I learned once you think you got it right, keep going a little more.

[Zach]

You know, Rick, I know you had a lot of Involvement with them since the beginning, since they started. But I really love the way that the shot tracker, you know, catches the doubles from shot to shot with the looping. You know, tell the folks what they need to know about that system.

[Rick]

It's the best system out there. It's like having a coach on the end of your barrel, like we say, but going especially in doubles, from first shot to second shot. You can see it on the graph. You can see it on video.

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean, if you talk about that J hook with Sean Hawley and all them, I mean, it'll literally show that loop. And I think that's really powerful if you're doing it. They've supported the show since the beginning. They love trapping, shooting. They're great people. Give them a shot, folks. They make a great product.

[Rick]

Take aim technologies.

[Zach]

All right, folks, we got to talk about Johnson's furniture appliance and mattress. Jason Johnson, he's a great guy. I just seen him in the shoot off the other day. He's helping shooters out with their mattresses all across the country. Tell them about it, Rick.

[Rick]

Johnson's furniture appliance and mattress in Witchita Falls, Texas. They will do a white glove service on tempur pedic mattresses right to your door or to your gun club. It don't matter. It'll help you out.

[Zach]

See, I need it, cuz one of those RVs, they come with them little flimsy little mattresses. My neck's all hurt. I need something good to sleep on. We got to feel good, we got to shoot good. So give them a try, folks, if you're looking for the best RV bed in the industry.

[Rick]

Yep, that's right. You got to get a good mattress if you want to shoot well. We appreciate everything you do for us, Jason.

[Zach]

Hey, folks, we got to talk about 12 gauge leather, works out of St. George, Utah. I just got my package in the mail. I got a brand new trap talk pouch with a holder and shells. I got all kinds of stuff. What kind of stuff you got, Ricky?

[Rick]

I got the same. Got the initials on there. Nice four box holder. But the best thing is the buckle holder, folks. That is cool. Got a stamp of initials. It's awesome.

[Zach]

I love that buckle holder. We can. I'm hanging that right behind me. When we do podcasts, that's a great gift for Christmas. I mean, think about everybody hanging their buckles up. And you know these guys pretty well, right, Rick?

[Rick]

Yeah, I actually did lessons at Livermore with them here at the beginning of the year with Jared and his Son Carson, there's a nice little pic of us there. And as you can see, it was a little cold in California, but great folks. They support trap shooting, they support trap talk.

[Zach]

If you need some leather stuff, give them a try and we'll see him at a shoot near you soon. Hey, folks, I got to give a quick thank you to integrated companies out of Utah. They're a great company. They support trap shooting and they support trap talk. Ricky, tell them what they do.

[Rick]

They do about anything you can imagine for all businesses of all size. But they do insurance, hr, payroll taxes, accounting. But we would like to thank Terry and Flynn Paulson for supporting us.

[Zach]

We really appreciate it. Absolutely. If you're a business owner in the trap shooting community and you like supporting brands to support trap support integrated companies that are Utah. Do you think that shooting in that wind all the time helps when you go to other places and it's not windy or tell the listeners of your experiences of shooting on that target?

[Jim]

Oh, absolutely. If you can shoot in the wind, you could shoot anywhere at any time. I took a frank little class and mine out North Dakota, I believe it was the end of 86, maybe 87 somewhere in there. And he really changed my, my style and the way I approach the game and the way it might hold points and all that stuff. And since then I've modified it a little bit to more fit me, especially in North Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, where the wind just blows all the time.

[Zach]

So the other day I was looking on, I think it was trapshooters.com or maybe it was the ATA page on Facebook and people are talking about what do you do when you shoot in the wind? And there was a lot of answers. Somewhere you shoot faster, somewhere you shoot slower. Somewhere you, you know, open up your choke, you know. That being said, you know, what do you think is the secret in your mind? Is it. Is it looking at the target longer? Is it being more aggressive? What are the things that you're doing on a windy day that's causing you to have success?

[Jim]

I hold on top of the house all the time. No matter if it's windy, if it's blue bird day, does not matter. I want that target above the barrel at all times. If that target is above the barrel, you can make a move and get to the right spot at the right time. If you hold the high gun and you get them to start hopping and your gun starts hopping up and down, it's. It's not a good deal.

[Zach]

And no point the target out, you're still going. You're just not throwing anything. And I think, you know, the way I look at a field, I look at it like a. Like a large pizza slice. I'm looking at the right angle and the left angle, and then I'm looking at the height of the bird, and I'm trying to take that gun and put it down at the tip of that pizza slice, at the section of where it's leaving the house. And I'm trying to let that target always be above my barrel. So I think where people get in trouble, especially in singles, is if you're on post three and you're holding down on the house and you get that straightaway, the tendency is to drive that gun up with that target and cover it up and shoot. But I feel like a lot of the times when you're doing that, that target's under a lot of spring, it's going its fastest. And as soon as you lose sight of the target, you're either going to want to lift your head or you're going to want to stop the gun. So, you know, there's no reason. Or both, right?

[Sean]

Or both.

[Zach]

And then you miss it, and you're like, man, how did I miss that? I was all over it. Well, because your hand stopped, right? So it's one of those things where if you let that target come up to where you could see it, I'm wanting to keep that target above my barrel until the instant that I'm taking the shot. I don't ever want that barrel to get above the plane of the bird and break the plane of the bird, because that's where you lose sight, and that's where you lose. You start to put doubt in your game. Now, as I'm closing the distance and shooting, obviously, you know, the target is disappearing at some level, but it's the very last thing before I pull the trigger. I see is target zipping away, and I'm blowing it up.

[Rick]

Yeah, well, and that's the one thing, is it? Trigger control. That's one of the main things, is shooting the target where it's at now, where it's supposed to be. You know, we could talk about that all night on, you know, windy conditions and. And. And such. And. But yeah, and that's one thing is, you know, Zach, you've been shooting a long time. You got a lot of credentials.

[Zach]

That smooth poise that you talked about, I think is very valuable. That being said, Jack, what type of style do you shoot? Are you on the house like me and Ricky? Are you holding high? You know what's what's your technique that you physically use?

[Jack]

Well, for, for singles, I hold roughly about, probably a foot and a half above the house. Roughly. And my gun shoots 90. Well, 90, 10. So 90% high. And then for doubles, I spot shoot the first target, so I truly couldn't really tell you exactly how high I hold above the house on doubles, but I know it's the same every time. I just can't really think of a solid length.

[Rick]

Yeah, you just put the gun up and that's just your comfort zone.

[Jack]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I spot shoot the first target, so I'm not really making a move to it. You know, it's, it's all kind of, you know, I, I see the target, I see the target like come under my barrel, and then it's just timing from there. And then handicap. I hold probably like about a foot above the house.

[Zach]

So above the house at some level, are you making a move to the target as it's coming out, or are you letting that target break the plane of your gun and then attacking?

[Jack]

I'm letting the target break the point of my gun. In singles. In singles, I shoot, I shoot a little slower. Singles, unless I get into, you know, a groove on my own, I can pick them up a little faster. But in handicap, I'm more of a snap shooting handicap. That's just how I've had to teach myself to shoot at the best. I can't ride out a handicap target. It's more of. It's gotta be, you know, a little quicker, you know, and a little bit more of a harder press to the target. Right away, as I see it coming out.

[Zach]

So you're going at it as hard and as fast as you can. Right out of the house, you see it and you're attacking it.

[Jack]

Signals you're letting handicap.

[Zach]

Yeah, signals you're letting it clear. You're, you're, you're smooth and breaking it out a little bit farther. And then handicap. Yep, you're coming out with movement as it's coming out of the house, and you're getting to that front edge and shooting very, very quickly.

[Jack]

Yeah, and, and you know, I'm not moving before the target comes out of the house, but it's, you know, it's. As soon as I see the target, I'm attacking the target. And you know, sometimes that can get you into a little trouble, you know, if you move too hard on the target and windier conditions or something.

[Darren]

My last five, I'm shaking so bad. I'm just. But I try. And you got the adrenaline flowing so much that you don't realize how much you're. You're holding onto that gun or, you know, pushing that gun or whatever. To where I try and go more relaxed, a lighter feel, more ballet style, let's say, the more fluid, just a little softer, goofy feeling, stuff like that. Because the adrenaline's pumping him so much. You gotta relieve that somehow, you know, to get it back to just the calmness and stuff like that to work.

[Zach]

So instead of going tighter with it, you potentially try to loosen up a little bit because your adrenaline's pumping so hard, you're already pushing harder naturally, so you're kind of recognizing that. And then. And then mentally, I mean, I know you said you sung your alma mater, but is there other mental things that you're playing tricks with yourself to talk yourself down when you're shooting for 10 grand or gold coin or. Or for, you know, a championship?

[Darren]

I want to say I'll more or less try and stay in that subconscious state, because if you bring it to the surface, to the. To the conscious deal, now you're thinking your mind will. You got to keep it out. You don't think of anything. More of a feeling, I think is what helps me to get through that, keep that smoothness, the calmness and stuff like that. So you're. And that's the mental part.

[Zach]

The next one ounce grilled coin buckle. You're trying to think about the same subconscious things you've been doing, doing, not changing anything. And then that guy's standing there and he's yelling. And the more he's yelling, you're more focusing on the process, Correct?

[Darren]

Right. And so it's like I shot with four or five guys for like eight years, every weekend and stuff like that. We all had excuses, okay? And back then, we didn't have the phone apples. It was a handful. What was your biggest gripe? Slow pulls. Well, why is there slow pull? Because you anticipate you're going to say pull, and you're either moving guns, moving, no target, slow pull. Well, I've learned just to say, I always just went off and waited for the target and shot it. And you can do that with a person out there giving them some lessons or whatever. Don't have them say anything. Just do their gun map. All they have is their eyes, and

[Zach]

we have to catch ourselves is. You know, you start a week. And I think it happens, especially for me, during, like the state shoot and the Grand America. It doesn't really happen as much when I'M shooting other states because I don't care as much when I'm shooting an out of state shoot. I think the pressure is a little bit off because you're not expected to win, but I think in your state shoot there, you know, there's kind of a expectation that if you're one of the better shooters, you're going to try to win it.

[Kurt]

Right?

[Zach]

So, so going into that overall, and it happened to be my birthday, Wednesday was my 32nd, and so we started the overall and the first day out I shot 99, 91, 99, which wasn't bad.

[Jim]

But

[Zach]

I start thinking in terms of I need to get as much as I can to stay ahead of this overall. And I'm thinking overall on Wednesday and Thursday when honestly I don't. You shouldn't even think overall until it's over.

[Jim]

Right?

[Zach]

Like, like for me, the best overalls that I've had were, were when I go in and I shoot one event at a time. And I'm not thinking about trying to get ahead on something or trying to win something, but I'm just focusing on this event right here. And, and the next day, Thursday, I missed my hundred thou. And it's because I was like, okay, I'm going to break 100 in the singles here. And then I'll have you know, that's another hundred I could have, right? Well, I missed, missed, missed the last one out. And in the handicap, same thing happened. I didn't miss the last one out, but I took like a fingernail piece off the back end of the target because it was the last bird. And I'm like, okay, finish this event with a 92. And I ended up with a 91. Right. I mean, you know, because of that. And then in the doubles, I went 49, and then on the last, I went 49 again. And I went dead lost on the last pair. And it shows you that you could be, you know, shooting the high level. But when you get down to it, I was analyzing and I was getting in my head and I was saying, okay, we need to hit this last pair, so let's be the last thing

[Rick]

in my head, see the target.

[Zach]

And, and I also use a catchphrase, see the target. I, I remember Sean Holley told me a long, long time ago, he said, you know, his catchphrase at the time, I think he said was, and I might be wrong, but a paraphrasing head on the stock, eyes on the rock. So, you know, just, just for me, I have found process really helps. So, like if you look at someone like Pat Lamont, I mean, his whole thing is built on processes, right? Like, yeah, everything is lasered to the same point where if he misses one of those steps, he starts over at the front. You know, for me, once I get the gun to here, I'm trying to mount that gun exactly the same as the last time and get my eyes in exactly the same spot. And so, so I think, you know, your, your, your body's saying, hey, don't miss, you're going to win this, that and the other thing. But what I think I'm trying to focus on is just doing the same action that I've done the 95 shots.

[Rick]

Yes.

[Zach]

And the more that I get into focusing on, you know, okay, the gun's exactly where it was last time, you know, on my shoulder. It's exactly where it was last time on the top of the house. My eyes are still and ready, look for the target, call, pull, and then the target comes out. And then I'm focusing on my energy on the bird versus, you know, trying to get the gun there. And I think that's where people mess up too, is they have. Wherever the gun is, they're always trying to get the gun to the target. And when you're trying to get to the end of the target, you're looking at the gun. You're, you're, you're, you're, you. We talk about getting cautious. You're physically saying, I gotta go, I got a hard left, I gotta, straightaway, okay, make sure the gun gets there. Well, then you're looking at that end of the gun and you're taking it to the charger. Be checking, you're beat checking. And I always know where the gun is in the reference behind. But if my eyes stay on the target, I'll know when the gun gets there because of feel more than, more than looking, more than driving it with my eyes, I'm driving it with a feeling. You know, I'm looking at the bird.

[Rick]

Now Tyler shoots, he's left handed because he's left eye dominant, but he's always had tape on his lens. And he's shooting along in the singles and he's, he's really struggling. I could watch him. He starts on four, I start on one. So I pay attention when he's on four and five and I'll look at him and I'm watching his moves and I'm like, something is not right. So I asked him, I said, son, what's, what are you doing? And he's like, dad, I. I'm looking at the tape. I'm like, why are you looking at your tape? Why aren't you looking at the target? He goes, well, I'm trying, but I'm kind of like. It's like my left eye is trying to look at it too. And I said, well, no. Well, your left eye too. And I go. He goes, I'm gonna try something. And I go, what? He goes, well, I did pull my lenses down a little bit and my glasses, my pedals, and I could see over the tape. I said, okay. So it shoots the third box. Pulling his glasses down, looking over, the tape breaks 24. So I said, listen, just take that tape off. He's like, okay. So we take it off for the last trap. He misses the last target for a 24. And then we go right to the practice trap to shoot a handicap. Practice with two eyes. First time from the 24, 24 yard line, he breaks 24, misses a third target. I said, you're good. You see the target, just drive through it. Okay. Dad goes out in the handicap, ties me, gets pardoned into my money because I played the money on him. Wasn't real happy about the money split

[Zach]

back, but okay, I would.

[Kurt]

I would just.

[Zach]

I would just take it. Because you're a sponsor anyway, right?

[Jack]

You just.

[Rick]

Exactly. That's what, you know, it was. It was funny as people were like,

[Jack]

what do you mean?

[Rick]

You just went to two eyes? I said, well, that's what he did. Now, for all the listeners out there that are shooting one eye or taped, you can. Tyler's thing is, is up here, the mental deal. And he thought that he's left eye dominant, but he thought he needed to shoot that one eye to be, you know, tried to be exact. Take that tape off.

[Zach]

So, Rick, my first question is where we're looking around the gun. I know you said, you know, you look through the gun in the past to me, but explain to our listeners what that means. And does it change between singles and doubles and handicaps?

[Rick]

Well, I don't really look through the guns. What I do is I look through the beats.

[Jim]

Okay.

[Rick]

Okay. So beads are stacked, you know, figure eight. And I line up everything, and I look right through those beads and let my eyes get out to the. The edge of the trap house. And that's where I use a soft focus right there. And as soon as the target comes out, my eyes immediately lock. Then the gun moves. I see now, some people will look, you know, set the gun on the corner just to say, yeah. And then they let Their eyes get up higher.

[Darren]

Yeah.

[Rick]

And they'll look way out in the distance. Now, I've always been in with. Okay, if you do and it's true, you look out at a distance and then look back, everything's clear. Yeah, but now we're shooting a target that's going away.

[Jim]

Correct.

[Rick]

So when you have a target that's going away from you and you're looking at a distance and you go to look back, it's a bore. And then it's kind of like. It's almost like you're blinking multiple times. Oh, then it clears up.

[Zach]

Correct.

[Rick]

And that's where I think some people get their eyes too far out. So when they. They look back at that target and it's moving away, they get the. And they flinch. Correct, Correct. So that's why I always like to see people just say, okay, let's look here. Target goes up. Oh, there it is. And then lock on and go correct. Or you could get your eyes out, you know, maybe 10, 15, 20ft from the house. Then you're fine.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Ian]

So.

[Zach]

So I, you know, and there's a lot of different thoughts. I mean, I've heard when I was a kid growing up, well, you want to put your eyes as far out as you can. Look out for that target, and then they're going to suck back to it. You know, I've kind of heard that a lot of handicap shooters told me that. And then you know what I realized? In especially the closer games where I'm at 16 yards, the farther out I looked, the more the angles would burn me. Like, I'd get that hard left and I'd get that hard right. And it almost feel like the target's coming out so fast because it's out of your vision. The way I explain it is if you were looking through like a toilet paper roll or you were looking through a scope on a rifle, if you're zoomed in in that position and a deer's running through, you're not going to be able to see it as well as if you zoom out your eyes so that you could see that angle and see if it's going this way or that way. So, you know, for me, at 16 yard line, I'm trying to look at the circumference of the area of the target. So, you know, you have your hard left, your hard right, that V, you know, and all of that area where that target could leave. And on three, you've got obviously a nice V like that. Yeah, I want to cover soft focus at the Trap house?

[Ian]

Yes.

[Zach]

All the way across the top of that trap house. As wide as I can go to the right, and as wide as I can go to the left, roughly.

[Rick]

But not in the trap house.

[Zach]

You don't need to go.

[Rick]

Some people, and I've heard this, you know, have called me or at a clinic. They're like, why kind of let my eyes expand? Well, almost like we're shooting bunker.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Rick]

I said, no, you want to be that trap house. Just a little bit within each side. So here.

[Zach]

And then add a little.

[Ian]

Okay.

[Rick]

That way. Charcoal. Oh, there it is. You just go to that target.

[Jim]

Yes.

[Dean]

And.

[Zach]

And so for me, unlike you, you say look through the beads.

[Ian]

Yep.

[Zach]

I'm looking a little bit above the beats.

[Rick]

That's what I say. You look over, I look over.

[Zach]

So what I'm trying to do is I mount the gun, I get the beads, and then I probably look anywhere from a quarter inch to an inch above those beads, depending on the light. So if the light's really, really low, I find myself looking more through the beads, like Ricky does.

[Rick]

Yeah.

[Zach]

If the light's really, really high, I look a little bit more above. The other thing that I think I'm changing is target speed. So if a target's really flashing or scaring me out of the house, I'll generally get my eyes a little bit higher than. If the targets are slow enough that I can catch them off the lip. If I can catch them off the lip, I want my eyes to be down there to catch that rock as soon as I can. But on that flashing bird, I feel as if I can get my head. My eyes up a little bit. It's not going to make me want to jab that gun. And it's going to make it. It's going to make it. Just kind of see the bird and then follow from behind.

[Dean]

Yes.

[Zach]

That's how I feel.

[Rick]

But in that. Today you shot today the double?

[Jim]

Yes.

[Rick]

Did you shoot the handicap, too?

[Darren]

In singles?

[Zach]

I did singles handicap.

[Rick]

And so how'd the singles go?

[Zach]

Singles had a 99.

[Rick]

Okay.

[Zach]

Handicap wasn't so good. I had an 86, but I kind of figured out the last box. I broke 24 and I.

[Rick]

You didn't call me Darren.

[Zach]

I need RMC clinics on that one.

[Rick]

So doubles, though, you. You had a 197. Correct. So in shooting doubles, it was. It was kind of low light.

[Jim]

Yep.

[Rick]

Where was your look at for there?

[Zach]

So I always think the closer I get to the trap house, 16 yards versus 27, the. The more high I could look above the gun because of relative distance change. So I'm up there. I can look one inch above the gun. And by looking above the gun, I can get that gun out of my leap year for Nebraska. But if you do go into it, you know, you're kind of, as one of the shooters, a little more expected to win, you know, so. So what's your mindset going into Ohio? What do you do to prepare?

[Joe]

Yeah, there's absolutely a lot more pressure, and some people don't like that pressure. Fortunately for me, I thrive off of that pressure. It's really what makes me go after it and want it even more. There's a lot of expectation for me to do well, and it does make it tougher, But I enjoy that. You definitely have to have a clear mind and a positive attitude going into it. It's a long week. It's a long grind, so it's. It's easy to have a bad round and. And let that get you down and put yourself out for the whole shoot, but you can't do that. Last year, I had some trouble at the beginning of the shoot, and I missed I over 25 birds on the first hundred handicap, and I was still able to come back and win the high overall at the end of the week. Just perseverance and not giving up. I didn't give myself that big of a negative head start this year. Fortunately, came out swinging and stayed steady the whole week and had a really good week. But you got a lot of different weather conditions, Whether it be wind or rain or heat, humidity. This week, we saw about everything out there, and you have to take each event, each trap for what it is and pay attention to your surroundings and. And just have that positive mindset, positive attitude that I don't care what's going on around me. I'm out here to break these targets, and I'm out here to win. And just don't let anything negative get you down or get you in the wrong mindset, because it's as easy as they are to break. They're twice as easy to miss. So you really got to stay positive with them.

[Rick]

Yeah, absolutely. Now, speaking of that, Joe, what did you think of the targets at the Cardinal this year?

[Joe]

There was a little bit of everything there. I mean, we had some days where they were high. We had days where they were low and slow. There's, I believe, they did some work on the traps there, and they lowered some of the stands down, which actually put the traps down lower into the house, which gives you more face to Shoot at and the targets break better, which is a really good thing in the question.

[Zach]

He said it. I think I got the event in the back.

[Rick]

You never have the event in the back. I mean I've been doing this 35

[Zach]

years and, and I've done it.

[Rick]

We all, any top shooter that tells you that they've never done this or

[Zach]

done that, they're full of it.

[Rick]

I mean, I've been on the last post before and you know, been down

[Zach]

one or two, it's been like loss

[Rick]

and you're like, really?

[Zach]

You've done it, Zach? I can remember doing it in very important events in my life that I'll never forget. One of the times that I remember the most is I. I was going into the last post of the California state handicap with a 99 going and I missed one for 98 and I ended up tying 9 ways in a shoot off for 98s instead of having a loan, I chopped the money 9 ways instead of having a loaner, ended up losing the overall by a target and losing the all around by a target. So literally like it was everything on that target. And I was kept thinking to myself, I've got this. And I just, you know, I just messed it up. And it wasn't like I've got this, it was like, I've already done it. Like I was being almost too confident where I thought, you know, oh, this is in the bag. I'm going to bust these last five and it's over. I just lost my sharpness and my focus for a second. I think it's very important. Doesn't matter if it's the last box, the first box, the first five, the last five, you have to shoot them the way you've been shooting them. So, you know, don't. I think so many people wind up or they wind down for the occasion. They're going into that last 10 or last 15 and they start either going faster or they start going slow and they start thinking to myself, okay, I've got this, you know, last 25 in got to make it count. Or they try being more precise with it, trying to place the shot right. And that's where you get into a lot of trouble. So I would tell, you know, the shooter just to, just to don't change anything and let the chips fall where it may, you know. You know, if you shot the first three boxes good, I would try to keep it as similar as the first three boxes going to the last box. Instead of trying to pull out this extra level of technique or extra level of trick. You know, Rick, I was at the Autumn grand and the Nevada State shoot and I was just really impressed with how I could see where my squad was when I was up. Just the technology, the ability to be able to see what options I've played if the event's paid or not. I mean, what's your experience with, with the app?

[Rick]

Listen, SOS Clay's app, it's the best thing out there, folks. You can see everything. It's great. You see your option payouts, you can see when you're up, you can see who's paid on your squad. Sometimes Zach doesn't pay on time, but

[Zach]

it's I get out there. But what I really think is, is for gun club clubs, it's free. Call Greg, get a hold of him. He'll set you up. He'll get you running.

[Sean]

Right.

[Zach]

And if you pay the the premium once a year you get free pre squatting in all the shoots. And that's the best value in trap shoot.

[Rick]

Absolutely. SOS clays dot com.