Trapital Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: AI and Music – Trapital Summit
Host: Dan Runcie
Guests: Carlita Higginson (EVP & Chief Digital Officer, Warner Music Group), Tatiana Sirisano (Senior Consultant & Analyst, Media Research)
Date: November 18, 2024
Duration (Content): ~26 minutes (excluding ads, intro, outro)

Episode Overview

This special Trapital Summit episode dives deep into the clash and collaboration between music rights holders and emerging technology, with a special focus on artificial intelligence (AI). Host Dan Runcie introduces a candid conversation between Carlita Higginson—who brings a rare dual perspective from both YouTube and Warner Music Group—and analyst Tatiana Sirisano. The interview explores how a major label like Warner is navigating the waves of AI, the evolving dynamics between music companies and tech platforms, and how industry innovation can thrive without undermining artists’ rights.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Carlita’s Unique Role at Warner Music Group

• (02:10–05:40)
  • Carlita’s first year has been “incredible” and focused on optimizing revenue, evolving business models, and embracing new deals—“AI as another one of the priorities.”
  • Her role at Warner is unique: “I am going across our artist side… songwriters… and global commercial partnerships… driving revenue both for artists as well as songwriters… thinking about that holistically across recorded music and publishing.” (04:00)
  • Unlike other majors, Warner integrates recorded and publishing music sides under digital deals, which creates collective leverage in negotiations.

Insights from Being on Both Sides of the Table

• (05:53–07:43)
  • With experience at YouTube, Carlita understands the margin pressures facing DSPs (Digital Service Providers), such as Spotify and TikTok.
  • “The incentives that are in the deal matter… If [DSPs] are not incentivized to grow it in a way that's going to help the entire pie, then we're not really going to grow.” (06:10)
  • Early, collaborative conversations are key: “The importance of having that conversation, collaborating early and often, I think is something that sometimes has been missed in the industry.” (07:13)

The “Forgiveness vs Permission” Dilemma in Tech Innovation

• (07:43–12:52)
  • Tatiana raises the ongoing issue: tech companies often “ask for forgiveness rather than permission”—a pattern dating back to Napster.
  • Carlita recounts the evolution from Napster-era disruption to YouTube’s legal battles and then partnerships:
    • “It was super important to litigate so that we have the framework... setting up the right guardrails.” (09:05)
    • “There is a need to embrace the technology because it’s here and it’s happening… The ability to partner early gives us the ability to… structure… monetization opportunities, control to our artists… and attribution back to their content.” (11:12)
  • Strategic litigation, policy work, and proactive partnerships must all be used in balance.

Modern Attitudes: Innovating Without Losing Control

• (12:52–14:02)
  • The industry has moved past trying to “put the genie back in the bottle.”
  • “Innovation has always happened in the context of strong legislation and policy... There are a lot of innovative ways and uses of the technology, both from a generative AI perspective as well as, you know, for other business practices... that can really help drive that human artistry.” (13:15)

Building Fair AI Licensing and Artist Consent

• (14:02–16:11)
  • Tatiana asks how to create a system that allows artists to “opt in” to AI training, instead of default “opt out.”
  • Carlita:
    • Draws analogies to YouTube’s Content ID system for identification, monetization, and control, but notes, “those types of systems need to be evolved to apply into this type of framework… providing a framework which allows for artists and songwriters to have control on anything that is implicating their name, image, likeness and voice…” (15:30)
    • Consent is non-negotiable for output using an artist’s identity.

Is This AI Moment Just Another Hype Cycle?

• (16:11–18:24)
  • Carlita acknowledges: “Is this a hype cycle? Maybe it's a hype cycle… it’s at a peak… There is a lot of investment going into this space.” (16:33)
  • What’s different now: The industry is getting involved earlier, negotiating AI terms from the onset rather than after the fact.
  • AI’s impact will transcend music, touching all industries, but will not replace artists or songwriters: “There isn’t technology that’s happening that is going to replace artists… or songwriters, that’s certainly not something that we see coming.” (17:27)
  • AI’s value is helping creators reach new audiences, build tools, and broaden fan engagement.

Case Study: YouTube’s DreamTrack Experiment

• (18:24–21:19)
  • DreamTrack: A YouTube and major label collab allowing fans to create 30-second AI-generated clips using artists’ voices (e.g., Charli XCX).
  • Carlita’s take:
    • Was involved at both YouTube (product conceptualization) and Warner (deal closure).
    • “It was a very on-rails experiment… limited in terms of the number of creators, the ability… to create the content... limitations that frankly… led to [it] being… a difficult place to really assess and evaluate whether this was a good opportunity.” (19:19)
    • Lesson: Need greater scale and flexibility in AI product pilots to properly assess market demand.

Positive AI Uses: Randy Travis and Edith Piaf Projects

• (21:19–24:17)
  • Randy Travis: AI helped the singer, who lost his voice after a stroke, to “recreate his voice” and create new music—a deeply emotional and empowering moment.
    • “If you see the video of him listening to it for the first time... it was incredible... the power of AI to foster that further creativity.” (22:20)
  • Edith Piaf: AI used in posthumous content production in collaboration with her estate, ensuring control and respect for the artist.
  • Both illustrate: control and consent by artists/estates are key, but AI opens profound creative possibilities (e.g., artists releasing songs in different languages for new audiences).

Artist & Tech-Driven Innovation: The Balance of Opt-in and Opt-out

• (24:17–25:32)
  • Initiatives come both from tech companies and Warner artists/songwriters:
    • “It's a combination... as that technology is evolving... talking to our artists and songwriters about what are the types of things you're looking for.”
    • Warner’s commitment: those uneasy with AI can opt out, while interested artists can experiment and benefit with full information and control.

Realism and Future Business Models

• (25:32–28:36)
  • “It’s realistic to expect that things are going to continue to evolve. There is a significant amount of money that's being poured into... these technologies. Again, I don’t know what that’s going to ultimately mean for us.” (25:48)
  • The music industry must update revenue and royalty models to prevent dilution from unlicensed or AI-generated content.
  • Growth will come from:
    • More nuanced pricing in matured markets,
    • Subscription growth in new markets,
    • And new economic structures to handle the surge of AI content.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On negotiating from a new position:
  “Having the ability to think about it very holistically and really think about what are the opportunities to come together and approach the streaming services... in most places, publishing and recorded music... tend to be almost like church and state.”
  — Carlita Higginson (04:00)

• On early, proactive partnership:
  “The ability to partner early gives us the ability to think about and structure what are the ways that we can provide monetization opportunities, control to our artists... Oftentimes it will happen fastest when you're dealing with the DSPs directly and... that's allowing that ability to define the rules of the road.”
  — Carlita Higginson (11:12)

• On industry change:
  “You can't put the genie back in the bottle.”
  — Tatiana Sirisano (12:52)

• On innovation and policy:
  “Innovation has always happened in the context of strong legislation and policy.”
  — Carlita Higginson (13:15)

• On artist consent and AI training:
  “Anything that is from an output perspective implicating those name, image, likeness and voice rights absolutely require the consent.”
  — Carlita Higginson (15:58)

• On DreamTrack’s limitations:
  “It was a very on rails experiment… limitations that frankly, I think ultimately led to being… a difficult place to really assess and evaluate whether this was a good opportunity... we've got to strike the right balance.”
  — Carlita Higginson (19:21)

• On AI empowering artists:
  “Randy Travis… used AI technology to be able to recreate his voice… this ability to create new content in his own voice that was lost… incredible to see and to think about the power of AI to foster that further creativity.”
  — Carlita Higginson (22:20)

• On the importance of business model evolution:
  “We are at the point where our models need to evolve... if we don't rethink what that's looking like, along with our partners... we would get left behind and we don't want that… the evolution of our royalty models.”
  — Carlita Higginson (26:32)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:07 – Dan Runcie’s intro & interview context
• 02:30 – Carlita’s role, priorities, and Warner’s structure
• 05:53 – Insights from both sides of copyright negotiation
• 07:43 – “Permission vs. forgiveness” and fostering collaboration
• 08:34 – Napster to YouTube: litigation, regulation, partnerships
• 13:15 – Role of policy in innovation
• 14:31 – Building artist-friendly AI licensing systems
• 16:33 – Is this wave just another hype cycle?
• 18:44 – YouTube DreamTrack: lessons and limitations
• 22:12 – Randy Travis & Edith Piaf: positive AI use stories
• 24:26 – Origin of AI projects: artist-driven, tech-driven, or both
• 25:48 – Realistic expectations & future business models
• 26:32 – Where Warner and the industry are heading

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced insider glimpse at the music industry’s response to AI. Rather than seeing technology as an existential threat or a panacea, Carlita Higginson emphasizes the need for collaboration, artist consent, sound policy, and flexible, evolving business models. The big takeaway: meaningful innovation happens not when “forgiveness” replaces “permission,” but when rights holders and platforms build the next paradigm—together.