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- [00:04]
Dan Runcy
I'm Dan Runcy. Welcome to Trap Ital. Today's episode is a special one. You're about to hear my sit down conversation with Clive Davis, one of the most influential music executives of all time. For context, this conversation was some time in the making. In 2024, Zach O', Malley, Greenberg and I did an episode together breaking down Clive's entire career. I eventually heard that Clive watched that entire episode and even took some notes. And if you know anything about Clive, how he works, you know that he's focused even today at 94 years old. And that's how we got to where we are today. In the conversation that you're about to hear, we talked about his entire career, his pre Grammy gala, the careers of some of the most important artists and how he helped revitalize them over time. We also talked about ownership and how that played a major role in his career as he continued to go through each step with different companies and corporations. We also talk about artist development and what he thinks separates both the artists and the executives who are able to have consistent success and those that haven't. This episode was so strong and so wide ranging that we're releasing it in two parts. So here is part one on my conversation with Clive Davis. This episode of Trapital is brought to you by Symphonic, where you can build your career on your terms. Symphonic empowers independent artists and labels to stay in control while building sustainable global careers. Symphonic provides the tools, technology and support needed to distribute music worldwide, manage catalogs, collect royalties and grow with clarity and confidence. From global distribution and marketing to data, insights and label services, Symphonic meets you where you are. Whether you're releasing your first track or scaling an established catalog. As a proudly independent, minority owned company, Symphonic combines powerful tech with human relationships, helping you understand options, protect your rights and make decisions that serve your long term goals. Learn more about Symphonic by going to symphonic.com or click the link in our show notes.
- [02:22]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
Welcome to Trap Ital and here we are at the Beverly Hills Hotel Bungalows with the one and only Clive Davis. Welcome to the show.
- [02:30]
Clive Davis
Nice to be here. Thank you.
- [02:32]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
We're here in your home. You've done a number of deals in here. I'd love to hear more about it. What does this place mean to you?
- [02:38]
Clive Davis
I started coming to the Beverly Hills Hotel in 1965. I had just been appointed head of Columbia Records and the only person at Columbia that was previously allowed to stay here was Garrett Liberson, my predecessor mentor. So it was a big deal to come here and I've stayed Here ever since my children, all four, grew up here. And rather than take a home in la, the Beverly Hills Hotel has been my home. So that many years ago, Ahmed and I would shake up the pool area where they have cabanas and he would have Mick Jagger or Keith virgins come and I would have for the Grateful Dead or Joplin come here. And so it really goes back to the 60s and my memories of my pre Grammy gala which is held the night before the Grammys. And for 50 years, my you started here. We outgrew it the year we outgrew it. The fire marshals, as I was about to embassy the pre Grammy gala, came in and they said, you're just over the limit and we have to interrupt you and it's going to take us an hour to set the tables differently so we don't violate the fire marshal laws. So I was panicked. How do you keep the audience and how do you keep everything intact? Robin Williams was in the audience, got a microphone, stood up and did an hour of his stand up routine that I'll never forget. And then of course we moved to the Beverly Hilton where we just had a wonderful latest pre Grammy where I was introduced, I'm proud to say, by Barack Obama and Gayle King.
- [04:42]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
And I've been there the past two years and in reading your books, hearing you talk about the pre Grammy gala, I know that it is a great room for the people that are there to make their own connections, make relationships. But I want to hear what was that like for you when you're building Aristotle, you're building Columbia. How did that room help you in your career and your business?
- [05:02]
Clive Davis
I never viewed how it would help me. I don't know how I've been helped other than the fact that for 50 years no label has competed with that party the night before the Grammys. It started the first year of Arista. When I formed Arista, Barry Batelow and Mandy were nominated for two Grammys. And Barry says, where's our party? Because every label has a party the night of the Grammy for the artists that are attending. And I said, barry, we're a brand new company. There are 10 of us. We'd have to have a table of Chasens. I said, the industry is ready to welcome me back to the industry. I had been fired by Columbia at the height of my career. Starting afresh with a brand new label, I decided I'm going to do it the night before the Grammys. They can welcome me and Arista to the industry. Elton John came, Stevie Wonder Came. John Denver came. I knew I was on to a good thing. We've done it every year and it's one of my proudest achievements because you know how competitive the music industry is. But wonderfully, Lucy and Grange and Rob Stringer and Tom Course at the heads of all the labels still come. It's a night of nights. And we're actually now looking into a documentary on the world's greatest party. Okay. The highlights of 50 years. Whitney played it with Lee's seven or eight times. And I once asked Alicia after she broke through and after that first album went multi platinum, I said, what's your next dream? What do you dream it'd be most fulfilling to you? She thought for a minute. She said, I would love to do a duet with Aretha at your party. And we arranged for that so that the footage for that documentary is Whitney duetting with Natalie Cole. It is the reemergence of Santana when I signed him a second time in the year 2000. Alicia and Aretha is fantastic for the.
- [07:24]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
So you're on for 2027?
- [07:26]
Clive Davis
Oh, yes. Yeah. It'll be a special year in many ways. Yeah.
- [07:31]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
One thing that always stuck out was you were able to keep the event intimate. But the event's definitely grown. You have corporate sponsors, there are other folks involved. How do you keep that balance? How do you still make it special without letting it become something bigger?
- [07:45]
Clive Davis
First of all, there are only a thousand seats. We do allow the National Recording Academy to take at least a third, if not a half of the seats in the room. The other seats make up the shout outs that I use during the evening, because I don't want schmoozing, I don't want executives approaching the top labels for whatever. So when an artist finishes, because it's a big room and because it's a horizontal room, they don't know who necessarily is there with them. So I, from the beginning of the evening and in between every hour I've invented, which is now a signature of the evening, announcing like this year, okay, I got off the ground by shouting out Joni Mitchell as the first, got his biggest standing ovation. As any act performing, I followed Joni Mitchell by Nancy Pelosi for her 26th consecutive year of attending this party. Then Barry Gordy, who comes every year, as did Quincy Jones when he was with us. I do that all during the night. And movie stars and Meryl Streep. It really is unique. To this day, I'm aware of every new artist. I go through them, I see their videos, I Praise the records. My criteria, will they get a standing ovation? I want a standing ovation for every artist performing. So it's not just good enough that they'd be nominated by or for a Grammy. They've got to be the goods. This year, we had Olivia Dean, we had Somber, we had Darren Criss as well as personal to me, artists who were timeless. You don't expect to see them there. I'll never forget one year Taylor Swift's in the audience. Miley Cyrus is in the audience. It was before Taylor was a phenomenon, but she still was successful. And I remember, as I'm seeing, looking at her and saying, what you're doing is great. But the next artist. You've never seen Turing, I'm not sure or familiar with whether you are familiar with what he's done, but I consider him among the three greatest male vocalists of all time. And to give you an example of how big an artist he's been, I said, taylor and Miley, an album of his greatest hits, was on the Billboard's top 200 for 10 consecutive years. And I said, with that, I'm going to ask all of you to give a standing ovation just in honor of his appearing, doing his greatest hits. And I brought on Johnny Mathis, who floored them, bringing gasps to the audience. This past year, I had a number of the new artists, as I mentioned, but the concluding artists, I'll never forget. First of all, my favorite song of all time is Bridge Over Trouble Water. I asked Audie Golf uncle to come back and sing that song. When I announced that Artie would sing it, I mean, it got a fervent response. And when he sang it, just looking around the room, the great land of Del Rey was sobbing. And this one, the tears flowed because he was able to capture the fragility and the high notes, still a little more tenuously. Okay. Probably the greatest current singer was Jennifer Hudson. We tributed Roberta Flack and she sang the first time ever I saw your face as only she could sing it. So she's there. Artie Garfunkel is there, but so are the new orders. I had Alex Warren sing Ordinary and Kleptz with John Legend.
- [12:06]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
That was a good performance.
- [12:07]
Clive Davis
Were you there?
- [12:08]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
I was there.
- [12:09]
Clive Davis
Okay.
- [12:09]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
I was there last year and this past year as well. Yeah.
- [12:17]
Dan Runcy
Let's take a break for a chart metric stat of the week. Clive spoke earlier about Santana and the resurgence that he had in 1999 and 2000. I don't think that this resurgence gets enough credit in context for how Remarkable it was. This is an artist who initially broke out around the time of Woodstock 69 and into 1970, and then three decades later has the biggest success of his career by far with Smooth Maria Maria, Game of Love and all of the songs that came from Supernatural and other albums. This would be like today if Lenny Kravitz, who had a very successful 1990s, ended up having the most successful year of his career in 2026 and then having the song of the summer in 2027. Truly remarkable. And even though Santana hasn't released new music in years, he's still one of the most listened to artists on streaming on Spotify alone. Santana currently has over 16 million monthly listeners. Let's get back to the episode switching gears.
- [13:22]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
You mentioned being fired by Columbia earlier and I know that later in your career you had parted ways with Arista, the label that you built. There are different scenarios, but there's some similarities there. And I'm curious for you, as you reflect on your career and you think about how you were, how corporations were there, any takeaways you had from those experiences or any connections there.
- [13:46]
Clive Davis
When you say you take away. Yes. First of all, you learn. I've been blessed. I studied to be a lawyer. It never dawned on me that I would find all the songs that Whitney Houston would record or Barry Manilow, a number of his great hits. He wrote Zombies in the Songwriters hall of Fame. But I am proud of that. I gave him my rights and songs and Can't Smile without you and Weekend in New England. I'm also proud of the fact that my documentary that Ridley Scott did has been on Netflix for six consecutive years and is now on Amazon. I'm proud of it because it stands for resilience. We were not afraid of showing the good, the challenging, the resilience to fight back, come back. So you mentioned two things. I'll always be wounded when I was fired as head of cbs and they claim the true story was that there was an employee that I had never hired. I inherited him. He had worked the years before at Columbia. He was stealing, so I had a firearm. No one knew that he was collecting invoices. One invoice he collected from me was at my son's bar mitzvah, was held at the Plaza Hotel. I didn't know we had a fraudulent scheme going. And he said to me, look, we have Tony Bennett playing, we have Jerry Vale playing, we have Steven Eddie, I can get 25% or if you're paying less price. So I said, wow, what a nice thing. To do. I didn't try to write it off. They knew it, the lawyers for cbs. Because this guy. And the reason I bring that up is that his lawyer advised him to get a lesser jail sentence. And he claimed that he would assist the U.S. attorney in Newark, that there was payola in the rampant in the record industry. It existed at every major company, including Columbia. Bill Paley owned cbs. The lawyers advised, you've got to separate yourself from the record division. And despite the fact that I had taken Columbia from number three to number one, okay, with Blood, Swan Tears, Chicago, Santana, Earth, Wind and Fire, Springsteen, Joplin, I could go on and on. I was summarily let go. That was a low point in my life because I couldn't comment because of the investigation going on in the industry. So I was very proud that Ridley Scott, in his documentary, when we were all cleared, there was no Paola found of the same company, Columbia Records, cbs. As I started Arista, without any orders being signed, there's a picture of a check to me for a million dollars for record club rights to any new orders that I would sign at Aristot. So although you get the vindication, the wound is there. And in accounts of it, you still read where the facts are misapplied. In the case of Aristotle, I was earning a lot of money because I had an equity share of Aristotle. And the year 2000, I think it was, I had just brought Santana back with Supernatural. It won nine, eight or nine Grammys, the most ever. I had done a comeback sort of album with Whitney called My Love is your Love. I was inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. And I received from the Recording Academy the lifetime achievement award. So I was feeling great. I had to accept all these congratulations as I got a phone call from the two people who were running Bertelsman, who owned which owned Arista. Would I have dinner with them? Of course. And I thought it was with along with the other congratulations. The year was extraordinary. So I went to dinner with them in New York at Plutes, the number one restaurant. And we sat down and they said, berzman has a rule that when you're 60, you've got to either retire or consult with them. And the current head then of bertelsmann was turning 60 and he had to do that. I was 68. And in the midst of all this glory profits, they said, we'd like you to become head of worldwide A and R for all Bertelsmann companies, but you'll have to leave Aristotle. I said, leave Arista? I said, that is so stunning, so shocking. I can't even stay. I don't want to be rude, but I'm not staying for cocktail talk. I am not leaving Arista like that. And I walked out. And headlines all over the world occurred right after that. What no one really ever knew was a gentleman coming to become head of Esmen Worldwide, as the current one turned 60 would have to be. A consultant flew into New York to meet with me at my home. And he said, there's no way we'll ever. I can't head a company that allows you to leave. And he said, I want you to come back and tell me the terms that you'll have to leave Arista, but I want a joint venture with you. Tell me what the terms of that joint venture would be that would satisfy you. I came back after research and consulting with Charles Goldstock, who was president of the label. The biggest label ever formed before we started Jay Records was Interscope, and they required 32 million. I said, look at this stage of my career. I'm not starting from scratch. I want an instant major label. I want a full A and R department, a full product management department, a full promotion department. I want to be able, number one, to sign and hire an unlimited number of Aristor executives to start with me, including the entire A and R department, all of these areas, without being able, of course, to offer them any more money so that I was. I. They could tear up the contract, but I was satisfied to pay them exactly what they were saying. I would say the biggest career achievement in my memory was that I offered the entire A and R department and all these areas, including the president, the executive vice president, 18 executives. And all 18 came with me. And we asked for 150 million. Not 32, but 150 million as we started J Records. And I had the right to take six platinum artists with me and any new artist who had not yet had that first album released, knowing that Alicia Keys was one of those artists. Overnight, J Records inherited everybody major at Arista. I signed Luther Vandross, I signed Buster Rhymes, and we exploded with the leash show. Those two years went by, and Arista did not have a head. Okay, Even the one album that Whitney did without me, the one album bomb, Bertelsman, came to me because now the joint venture was worth more than what I was getting paid, which is why they did this. And that profitable year of 2000. And they said, we're firing. The executives were firing everybody in Arista. You will now have Arista J, RCA drive and two years later, they gave me the entire music business of Bertelsman. Yeah, there's vindication, there's resilience. So a message to your audience, if that happens to you, just reach deep down, fight back.
- [22:41]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
Because the through line there really seems that you were at the top of your game in both of these situations. When the Columbia firing happened, you moved from number three to number one. When the Arista move had happened.
- [22:55]
Clive Davis
Yes.
- [22:56]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
Supernatural, Grammy album of the year. All the accolades, all the success was there. So it wasn't your success that was ever the issue. There were other things that were happening.
- [23:07]
Clive Davis
Some of the things I explained what was happening. That year I made 23 million. They didn't like that I had a phantom equity in the company, so they thought they would top that. You forget, when you're purely a businessman how important creativity is, how important a great executive team is. It's not easy. I was fortunate to prevail. Yes. But there was a lot of pain in the interim.
- [23:34]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
You mentioned Whitney earlier. Your career with her has been very well documented. And reading about you and her relationship,
- [23:42]
Dan Runcy
I want to hear about times that
- [23:44]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
you and her may have disagreed. So let's say that Whitney had a particular idea for something and she pushed back on you. Do you have any stories there or anything unique to share?
- [23:53]
Clive Davis
I have one story. Because the way we worked together, she trusted my A and R instinct. I, with my A and R staff, did all the looking for material, let's say the first few albums, the only ones that ever participated in the choice of repertoire was Whitney and me. It wasn't that I just signed her, but no father, no mother, no Bobby Brown, never. She always said, look, this has worked because I would tell her, are you pitching yourself? Do you know we just had seven consecutive number one records and an all time record? So that we did that together. The one time I think we were doing the second album, I played her a song written, no less by the great Kenny Edmonds, Babyface. Why does it hurt so bad? She says, that's not me. I said, that's fun. Let's have fun with this. Because she had never said no. And despite our different backgrounds, we operated so unbelievably as a team. Mutual trust. Because when you get a demo, I want to dance with somebody. You would have thought the demo would be for Olivia Newton John. What I would hear in my ears, the kind of arrangement to make it soulful. But you don't want to dance with somebody, you want to go to bed with somebody. And it had to be sexier. More soulful. She'd get it immediately, understood it immediately. If you have time, I'll tell you. What a thing that was amazing. I said, what is it about? What? Does it hurt so bad that you don't? She said, if a guy betrays me, if a guy is unfaithful to me, if a guy rejects me, A, my religion tells me, have confidence in yourself, this is not the right guy for you. B, I know in my heart this is not the right guy for me. And so I would just move on. I then candidly, because we were family by then, okay. I said, this just shows how spoiled you are. Because let me tell you, that song is universal truth. Baby Face wrote universal truth. And if you are the average person in a monogamous relationship with somebody and that person rejects you or betrays you, et cetera, you hurt and you hurt back. She said, okay. First time we disagreed, we moved on. When she left, I called Baby Face up. I said, kenny, Whitney doesn't feel the song is for me. Normally you can't ask a writer to put something on hold because that's how they make money. But Whitney's first album had just sold 26 million copies. He said, of course I'll put it. I'll leave it for you. So I put the demo with the lyric sheet in the upper right hand draw, fast forward, I think about five years. Okay, I get a call from Whitney, let's have lunch. I said, really? Okay. How come we don't have an album that we're coming with? We were doing Bodyguard, Waiting to Exhale, Preach, His Wife, movies. She said, I don't want to talk on the phone. I want to come in and be with you. I said, okay. So she came in with her hamburger and Coca Cola. And she said, I didn't want to tell you on the phone. I'm leaving Bobby. I'm getting a divorce. I'm not blaming either. Partying for the well known mutuality of drug use. I can. But I listened and she said, it's just one hurt too much and one betrayal too much. So I'm getting divorced. So we chatted about that. Obviously. She said, only once in our career together. I didn't feel a song was right for me. Who recorded that song? I said, no one. She said, no one? How could that be? I said, I put it on hold. Really? What was the name of it? I told you the name. What does it hurt so bad? I took it out of the upper right hand drawer where I had left it. She said, let's play it and I played it with her reading the lyrics, she, she said, I'm ready. She said, I'm ready to record it. I understand it now. Cause I hurt real bad.
- [28:26]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
I have to imagine part of that is probably a timing perspective as well, because when she did her second album, that's still I wanna dance with somebody very much pop dance. Like you said, some of those songs could be more Olivia Newton John. But then you have the third album, a lot of Babyface, a lot of L A Reid involved with that, right?
- [28:45]
Clive Davis
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:46]
Interviewer (Trapital Host)
So then that feels like that is. Then it's easier for her to see that it was also after the Soul Train Awards, so maybe there was a bit of a shift there to say, okay, now I have to see, now I'm more willing to do this.
- [28:59]
Clive Davis
No, with all due respect, she didn't get it the first time she read the lyric of that song. It was a young girl not having experienced the pain of rejection. She loved Bobby, very attracted to Bobby. All these stories about her sexuality. It took years of betrayals before she was ready. But she hurts. That's the point. She hurt so bad. She understood it. She was five years or so older and she was ready to understand that.
- [29:35]
Dan Runcy
And that's part one of my conversation with Clive Davis. In part two, you'll hear us get more into LaFace Records and what it takes to have that right balance when running a label. The talent and production skills as well as the business skills. He also shares some great stories on Aretha Franklin, Luther Vandross, the rise of catalog sales, Spotify, new leadership and executives that he has a close relationship, and more. Thanks again to the team at DKC News, Sony Music, Fred and Charlie Davis, the team at Glendale Podcast studios, Eric and G and Roana, who help us with everything on trapital, and most importantly, thank you for listening. If there's one person you know that would really get a lot out of trapital, whether it's this part one that we just did on Clive Davis or any of the conversations that we have, send them a link to the show. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow. And if you haven't done so already, leave a comment, Leave a review Wherever you get your podcast that helps trapital reach the right people, we'll see you for part two. If you love listening to trapital and want to stay ahead in the world of tech startups and venture capital equity, TechCrunch's flagship podcast has the inside scoop. Every Wednesday and Friday, they dive into the stories that matter most from expert interviews to in depth discussions and roundtable chats with their team of TechCrunch reporters. Whether you're an entrepreneur looking for tips or just curious about what's shaping tomorrow's world, they've got you covered. Tune into equity wherever you get your podcasts.