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- [00:05]
Dan Runcy
I'm Dan Runcy. Welcome to Trap Ital. You're about to hear part two of my conversation with Clive Davis. In part one you heard how great of a storyteller Clive is even today at 94 years old. I hope I can tell stories that well when I'm 74, let alone 94. But Clyde brought us under the hood and talked about how he goes about assembling his pre Grammy gala. He also talked about some of the ups and downs he had when he was building Columbia Records into what it became and also Arista, the company that he started. He also shared an epic story about his working relationship with Whitney Houston and how that tied into his relationship working with babyface and L A Reid. And that brings us to part two where you're going to hear more about LaFace Records, which started as a joint venture under Arista and what it takes to have a successful record label in that mix between the business skills and and that AR talent. You'll also hear some memorable stories on one of the toughest things to do in this business revive the career of an artist who is well known but hasn't had a hit in a very long time. And at the end of this episode I have a bonus for you. I had a few more questions so I had a call with Clive after our episode and we talked even more about catalog sales, what he's working on today and more. So again we had a blast. I hope you enjoy this as much as he did. Here is part two of my conversation with Clive Davis. This episode of Trapital is brought to you by Symphonic, where you can build your career on your terms. Symphonic empowers independent artists and labels to stay in control while building sustainable global careers. Symphonic provides the tools, technology and support needed to distribute music worldwide, manage catalogs, collect royalties and grow with clarity and confidence. From global distribution and marketing to data, insights and label services, Symphonic meets you where you are whether you're releasing your first track or scaling an established catalog. As a proudly independent minority owned company, Symphonic combines powerful tech with human relationships helping you understand options, protect your rights and and make decisions that serve your long term goals. Learn more about Symphonic by going to symphonic.com or click the link in our show notes. We talked a bit about Babyface and of course LaFace was one of the one of the labels that had a joint venture with Arista. I would be interested to hear how do you decide when a group like LaFace wants to do a joint venture? How do you find the right balance between what do they control, what you control because you. It's different than a typical deal, but you're still offering some level of support.
- [02:55]
Clive Davis
When I brought L A Reid and Babyface to produce Whitney I'm your baby tonight resulted because we wanted to make sure that there were enough urban flavored material as well as just great songs in there. So we got along. They had their first number one puppet. I had established that relationship. You've got to be very careful with label deals. You've got to be very careful because the investment is large and the cost is great. Producing a lot of hits is great, but it doesn't mean that you're a great talent scout. And a great A and R person does not have to actually be a studio producer to build a track record of hits, of discoveries of people you discover. I found a lot of my competitors were giving label deals just to successful producers who were able to produce a string of hits without making a separate judgment that they could discover artists before they even go in the studio. And a number of producers who had hits, the kind of I. I would ask them to bring to my attention orders that they would sign. So I really never made, says he immodestly, an unsuccessful label deal because I did take that second step and a hit producer. They would bring people that could never be stars, they could never be unique or what have you. They didn't have the magic, they. They didn't have the charisma. The thing I'm proudest of is that my discoveries, if you will, 50 years later, are still headlining. They're not just been one hit or two hit wonders. LA and Baby Face showed me, we had meetings, they showed me talents. They were interested on the Face with Usher, with Toni Braxton, with Pink Cast. We had an incredible run of success as far as the. They in effect become your A and R team. So they absorb the cost of production of the records as well as the videos that accompany it, but they turn that over to Arista. We did the promotion, we did the marketing, we did the sales of it. And so that's how you arrange the economic situation. If you do make a label deal, make sure they are able to discover and not just have hit records without the discovery in there.
- [05:43]
Dan Runcy
How important is their business skills as well? Because they are running a business as well. In addition to being the talent scout and producing.
- [05:53]
Clive Davis
The ability to have a business sense is very important because you want them to be successful. There were issues at lafay's because the artist discovery was phenomenal. The hits they had were phenomenal. But I'M sure you read that TLC was very unhappy. You know why they were unhappy Or Tony? Because the cost of their videos were extraordinary. Waterfalls or the cost of making the album. There are always advances against royalties and that gets charged to the artist. You've got to run a tight ship. You've got to have a label in front of you and the artist has got to have management. That makes sense because TLC were brilliant, incredibly talented. But the royalties were affected by the cost of the videos and the cost of the recordings, which were extraordinary.
- [06:56]
Dan Runcy
You mentioned music videos. The 90s. That is big budget era for music videos. Do you know the most money that you ever spent on a music video?
- [07:06]
Clive Davis
I don't. I think we were a tight ship. I don't think that we went crazy at Arista. I wish I could give you. I'm happy not to give you an example because my marketing team, Charles Goldstock and Tom Causing were always cost efficient.
- [07:26]
Dan Runcy
We talked about Santana. There are other artists as well that you helped revive their careers and they were already legends. But you gave them another opportunity to do what they do well. Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warrick, also in that category. Are there certain things that an artist needs to have for a revival to be able to happen?
- [07:49]
Clive Davis
I am very proud, honestly, not just of the artists that I discovered from scratch, but where I believed that an artist was timeless. Where I believe like Barry Manilow, because I was given two songs on every album of Barry, because Mandy went to number one and that was our first record. And so the track record then of finding I write the songs and Can't Smile without you. Barry nicely and wisely gave me two automatic songs on every album and they all went to the top of the charts as long as well as his songs that he wrote. He's in the Songwriters hall of Fame. But we supplemented it with each other. So a song came in to me that I was five years would have to wait to record because I'm only given to on every album. I said, dummy, look for a female artist who can sing this song who is not having hit today, but should because. And there should be a woman. It can't be a male. And that's when I thought of Dion Warwick. And I called Dion. I said, dion, I just came across this song you can have an incredible hit with. She said, I'm. True story, word for word. I'm about to leave the record industry. I'm so unhappy with the last three years. She was no longer working with Burt Bachrach and Al David. She hadn't had a hit. I said, come in. We had dinner. I played her I'll Never Love this Way Again. What a wonderful career we've had together. Because not only did that become a hit, but Deja Vu became a hit. In fact, that year at the Grammys, Dion won Best Pop Female Vocals and Best R and B Female Vocalist for Deja Vu. When I'll level Up this Way Again. That attracted the inimitable, incomparable Aretha Franklin and Aretha and cooked dinner for me one night. She said, Look, I'm approaching 40. I'm no longer working with Jerry Wexler. Do you think I could have hits after I'm 40? I said, Aretha, there's no one like you. From the minute I rang the bell to her house to come for dinner, there was no one like Aretha Franklin. I don't care if you were Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, whomever. Wherever I went with Aretha, she was the queen and they deferred to her. I'll never forget, we went to a Valentino retrospective. She said, come with me. One of my gowns is being re shown. So I went with her. And five minutes later, there's a teenage T at my elbow. A famous gentleman I looked around and spotted, and he said, clive, I have never done this before. Would you introduce me to Aretha? That was Ralph Lauren. That is my relationship with Aretha. What happened with Rod Stewart with the Great American Songbook? 27 million over five albums. After a record label had rejected the idea of him doing the Great American Songbook and worked closely with him the most. Among the most heartfelt pleasures was Luther as he got so ill from his stroke. He had written I want to dance with my father again. And we knew we were writing just an incredible song. And his documentary is good, but it didn't make the punchline that I know was such a vivid memory for me. When the doctors called me, the manager, Carmen Romano, called. He said, the doctors, Luther has not spoken. And we just were nominated for several Grammys for Dance With My Father Again. Would you come to the hospital? So of course I went to the hospital. I go into this big room and there's Luther on this bed. And I came over to him. There was no immediate sign of recognition, but I said, luther, I'm here because we've been nominated for the Grammys, and I know you so well, and it's so personal to me that I will go to the Grammys with you. And so I'm here to find out, what hotel would you want to Stay at A True Story where he looked at me for a full minute and although he had never said a word after the stroke that he had, he looked at me and said the Beverly Hills. Well, it was a few weeks of Glee and although we improved, unfortunately Luther passed. But I get as much pleasure from signing an artist that others might have thought Pete I would know or too old. Aretha, Dion, Santana. 25 years later we did his great album of the year 2000 with smooth and Maria. It's like one of the, I think the 12th best selling album of all time. And he was 55, didn't sing and was just a guitar God, but he was there. I signed him originally in 1969 I believe. And that's a great story. Yeah, it's great to discover someone new. Alicia, Whitney, Bruce, Janice, etc. But it's also so fulfilling with the greatest artists of all time, including Aretha and Dion.
- [13:50]
Dan Runcy
Let's take a break for our chart metric stat of the week. One of the most successful artists that Clive worked with during his J Records stretch of his career was Alicia Keys. Songs in A Minor came out instant hit Fallin. She won a bunch of Grammys and she is commercially recognized as one of the most successful artists from the 2000s and from the 21st century overall. But one of the unique things about Alicia compared to some of the other artists that Clive has worked with is that Alicia wrote a lot of the music herself. She is truly a singer and songwriter through and through. She currently has four songs that she's the lead or feature artist on on Spotify that have over over a billion streams. No. 1, the music video on YouTube is close to hitting a billion views there. She continues to be one of the most commercially successful artists in R B pop music overall of her generation. Let's get back to the episode and for you, that drive to revitalize the career of an artist that another label or another executive may have thought peaked is part of that. Your drive to prove that, okay, I can do what they can't do or I see something or my personal taste is what can get this over the hump.
- [15:04]
Clive Davis
I don't think of competition when I do that. I want to tell you something for you or your audience. I always said my mantra was not that. My mantra was I get paid a lot of money to worry. So I'm a worrier. I don't feel when I signed her and I said, oh, I'm going to do something the competition wor would or would not do. No doesn't enter My mind, the decision to sign. You worry, can I do this? How do I do this? That's the reason I really do that. But I worry. Do you have to do to make sure that you're writing ahead? Attention to detail is so important. Work ethic is important. I'll give you an example. Aretha would only give three takes to any producer producing her because she rehearsed herself a genius in her. She was prepared. So when she came to the studio, as compared to most artists who were learning in the studio, she knew the song backwards and forward. Okay? And I don't care who the producer was, they would all call me. She's only giving me three takes. That is all she did. But I found a way. And they would all call. How do you get Aretha after? She would only give us three takes and they were all successful producers. And you get her to go back to the studio. What's the secret? And I said, very simple. Once I listened to the material that she recorded, if I identified a candidate for a single and said, you're incredible. Ad libs at the end of the record are obscuring the chorus from being repeated enough in its full melodic flavor. This is a single, it won't be a single because although you sing great for a single, that chorus has got to be repeated on melody before you start your ad libbing. She got that instantly. The most important thing is, do I have a single there? And if she knew that she could have a single, she'd go right in the studio and put you your advice to actuality.
- [17:33]
Dan Runcy
And this thing that you've done so well revitalizing these artists careers. There are a lot of people in music right now that are trying to do the same thing when they're acquiring music rights or they're doing deals to have those types of transactions. Do you have any thoughts on the rise in popularity in that space? Particularly whether it's private equity firms or record labels acquiring the music rights to then try to do this same type of thing?
- [18:03]
Clive Davis
I don't see the analogy right now from what you're asking. Catalog deals that are being done now in music publishing are being put at a very high price based on earnings. It really depends because certain artists, certain writers. Diane Warren will never sell her catalog in a million years. But on a practical basis, if you are senior and you have a family, you don't want a catalog of music to go into your state where the tax people will come in and levy a half, 500 million or 300 million or 200 million. You got to come up with the cash to pay those taxes. So I understand why certain senior grade writers have sold their catalog, but that's catalog. It's not reviving a career of an artist to have hit records again. Copyrights that become standards show. And it's a different concept entirely that there's nothing like a great song so that it could be revived again, it could be redone again. Look what we did with Rod Stewart with A Great American A Songbook, Density in the Dark. And you go to my head. They have a way of keep going. I had fun this very week. I don't know who I was with, but we decided to list from years ago, the greatest composers of all time and of all the songs written. Irving Berlin. It's awesome. God bless America. White Christmas, always Nobody. I don't think anybody has ever written the number of standards that an Irving Berlin, a Cole Porter or Sammy Khan, a Julie Stein, a Rodgers in Hammerstein. When I was growing up in New York, you would go to Central Park, 100,000, 200,000 people just to hear the music of Rogers and Hammerstein. It was awesome. And it's awesome when you contemplate, if you have anything like that, what songs
- [20:17]
Dan Runcy
you'd hear to clarify, you're right. In these music rights deals and the publishing in the catalog, it's less often a oh, let's make a new record for this artist. But what we do see is similar to Whitney Houston and Primary Wave. Oh, there's the Higher Love track and then Kygo does the remix. So that's not a new record. But I think we're starting to see people try to do examples like that.
- [20:42]
Clive Davis
For instance, I was very proud this past year, it was about a year or two ago, where the Billboard staff voted on the best hundred songs or so of all time. And I wanted to dance with somebody came in at number one one day, which I haven't done yet. I would love to just play the demos of those songs that I gave to Whitney or Aretha or Barry or Santana, what the demos sounded like. You would have sworn that I Want to dance with Somebody should be for Olivia Newton. But Whitney, with her genius and our collaboration, we knew what it was capable of being. So it was thrilling to see the recognition of that switching gears.
- [21:32]
Dan Runcy
I want to talk about music today. And you mentioned you're still listening to new artists. Do you listen to music streaming? Do you listen to Spotify? How do you listen to music?
- [21:41]
Clive Davis
I listen to Spotify. I certainly stream, but basically it's not that at my age that I'm going to sign an artist, but I am going to choose from my pre Grammy gala among the hits of today. Who will I invite to perform at my party? That is very key and important to me. I'm very aware and current. And this year's Grammy party, you were there.
- [22:10]
Dan Runcy
I was there.
- [22:11]
Clive Davis
Darren Criss and Olivia Dean and Alex Warren. And they were chosen by me because they're really the goods. I make sure that night is unique and very special.
- [22:25]
Dan Runcy
And as we're closing things out, I do want to talk about your current role in the music business and mentorship. You are seen as one of the leading moguls and executives who helped build the modern business. Are the current executives in the space? Do you have any mentor mentee relationships there? Do they come to you for advice? Especially as we're talking about how to work with these particular artists or how to navigate the business dynamics. Is there anyone that you work closely with?
- [22:54]
Clive Davis
There are so many people that have my admiration. Rob Stringer in the great job he's doing at Sony, Peter Edge at rca, Young Larry Jackson, whom I think is a friend of yours, and the big venture at Gamma. I still go into Sony in New York at least twice a week. A number of the executives there certainly play stuff for me and give advice. But I'm very proud of the executives that I've groomed. I'm very proud of the executives that helped me achieve what I have achieved. So that in seeing so many as presidents or heads of other record labels, the personal relationship comes first. So I'm very proud of a number of the alumni. Okay. Who now head music companies throughout the industry.
- [23:52]
Dan Runcy
That's good to see. It's been good to see. And then to close things out, to talk about legacy. There's a lot that's been talked about. Your accomplishments, you've written, your books, your documentaries. But is there anything that you think doesn't get enough highlight or any accomplishments you think that get overlooked?
- [24:12]
Clive Davis
Look, I'm very grateful for the recognition that I have received. I don't. Other than in the difficulties that I've had to overcome, errors, in fact, which we mentioned earlier today, that's what I would say gets me upset most, that my achievements are not recognized. Just everybody coming to my Grammy party, without exception, is total recognition. But in defining resilience or challenges that you overcome, I find it important to tell the truth, to give the facts and not be upset in the bad reports recording itself. So that is what I think can get my dandruff more than not getting recognized because I feel the connection there keenly.
- [25:10]
Dan Runcy
And you keep the media on their toes as well. I remember when we did our traffic episode about you, you had some notes for me afterwards. So I know you, you stick to your word. You do.
- [25:20]
Clive Davis
Yeah. Yeah. Gee, thank you, Clive.
- [25:23]
Dan Runcy
I appreciate you making the time to do this. This conversation has been a lot of fun.
- [25:27]
Clive Davis
Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
- [25:31]
Dan Runcy
Now here's my follow up call the week after with clive. Hey, clive, it's Dan Runcy. How are you?
- [25:37]
Clive Davis
I'm okay, Dan, thanks.
- [25:39]
Dan Runcy
Wanted to follow up with you on a few things that we talked about. First, we talked about catalog sales. But would you yourself as ever sell the catalog or the music rights that you own? Especially given that you've been a producer on some of the most memorable music of the past few decades. Would you ever sell?
- [26:00]
Clive Davis
When you say ever? I could conceive of selling if I thought the value was going to create heavy taxes and I would want to defray that and raise cash to pay the tax is one reason. Yeah, I don't think it's that Zach Pro saying that it's beyond contemplation.
- [26:25]
Dan Runcy
Have you ever been approached by someone that wants to buy your catalog and your music rights? Really? That's very surprising. I feel like they're reaching out to everyone that they know owns the most valuable rights to try to buy them.
- [26:38]
Clive Davis
Now I feel like I'm being ignored.
- [26:42]
Dan Runcy
Maybe they'll hear this and they'll reach out because I know a lot of them listen to trapital. So they may be reaching out to you. So I'll give you a heads up on that one.
- [26:51]
Clive Davis
Okay.
- [26:52]
Dan Runcy
In our conversation you said that you're paid to worry. This is something you've said several times. You've talked about this in your book. But let's talk about today. What was the last thing that you were worried about?
- [27:06]
Clive Davis
The last thing? I got paid to worry a lot. Look, the idea of responding with your correct point of view, the idea of making sure that I'm understood in points that I want to make. I like clear conversation that is understood on both sides. I think of anything entrepreneurial. I don't just assume that I would be successful. I know you got a work ethic. So I don't take the assumption that automatically I'm going to succeed.
- [27:45]
Dan Runcy
On your end with your day to day responsibilities. Right now I know you're still working closely with Sony music. You're working with others as well. Is there anything that you've been worried about from that perspective or even with the annual gala, is there anything that you get worried about there, given how large?
- [28:05]
Clive Davis
And I worry about that a lot. Let's use that as an example. I want to make sure that it's state of the art, that it's up to the quality of the past. I want to make sure that I appraise all the new artists and get a feeling as to my being knocked out or not knocked out by them. Yes, I worry that it be a great success in its tradition.
- [28:35]
Dan Runcy
You want to make sure that anyone that you're inviting, anyone that you are introducing gets that standing ovation. And that is a high bar to be able to hit every time I try. The last question for you, Clive, you mentioned that you still go into the Sony office in New York quite often and you still do have an official role there. What does your work look like today? What have you been working on?
- [29:01]
Clive Davis
I've been working on the documentary of the pre Grammy gala with the people that are working on it daily. I've been conversing on that subject. I'm preparing for podcasts that I'm going to do that I can't discuss until it's announced.
- [29:21]
Dan Runcy
I hope that this podcast wasn't one of the things that you were not.
- [29:25]
Clive Davis
I didn't know what you were. I enjoyed our podcast, I enjoyed your questions, I enjoyed our dialogue and I did not prepare in the abstract.
- [29:36]
Dan Runcy
Thank you for that, Clive. And again, thank you for your time. Thanks again for making time for this.
- [29:41]
Clive Davis
Okay, my pleasure. Thank you. Okay,
- [29:47]
Dan Runcy
that is a wrap for my conversation with Clive Davis. There are a number of people to thank who helped make this happen. First and foremost, the teams at both DKC News and Sony Music for their support along the way. I'd also like to thank Glendale Podcast Studios for the amazing job they did capturing the event. Also, like to give a personal thanks to both Fred Davis and Charlie Davis for their encouragement to help make this conversation happen. I'd also like to thank our audio and video producers G and Eric and Roana on our team for everything that they did post production with any of the clips, highlights and more. This was truly a team effort. So thank you. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as we did. And most importantly, thank you for listening. If there's one person you know that would really enjoy this episode on Clive Davis or any of the conversations that we have on Trapital, send them a link to the show. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow, so if you also have some time, leave a comment leave a review that helps Trap Ital reach the right people. Thanks again. Talk to you next time. If you love listening to Trap Ital, I want to put you onto another podcast that I think you'll really enjoy. It's called One Song. It's hosted by Diallo, Riddle and Luxury. Each episode unpacks one one iconic track. They break down the original musical stems so you can hear how the song was built, while also diving into the creative choices and cultural forces that shape the song. If you're into how music, media, and culture intersect, this show is very much in that lane. You'll hear songs you already love in a completely new way. Check out One Song. Wherever you get your podcasts.