B (4:53)

Well, it's funny, I was thinking Sphere has been in Talk since like 2018 or so. This idea just sound like such a fever dream to a lot of people. And now in 2026 the concept doesn't sound so crazy anymore. We're starting to see a bit more consistency, but there's still a lot of risks that we're going to talk about and I think the main thing for me just thinking about it as a fan is that they've yet to have an artist that I really want to see there. Personally, they've catered to a lot of fans really well, but I feel like, there's also a lot of buckets that have not yet sort of entered the building. I wouldn't say that I'm bullish on it yet, but I do feel, I guess, more confident in it than I did the last time that we spoke.

A (5:35)

So you would feel bullish if Dua Lipa was performing at the Sphere?

B (5:39)

I mean, I would go, but. Yeah. And it's funny, I texted. My sister lives in LA and she loves Vegas. She loves to, like, lean in and go to shows. She thinks it's one of the best places to see concerts. And I asked her last night, just gut check, like, how are you feeling these days about the Sphere? And she was like, I would love to go, but there's no one that I want to see. So, yeah, I think it's. And that's the thing that we unpacked a bit last time is how it's hard to find the right fit of artists on both sides. So it's not just the case that, oh, we really want Dua there. So she'll be there. There's a lot involved.

A (6:09)

Yeah. I think I've landed at. I'm in a better spot than I was when you and I recorded that episode. And I'll give credit to Jim Dolan, msg, the whole team behind it.

B (6:19)

Totally.

A (6:19)

But I do think there are some reservations, though. So first with the financials themselves. They reported that this is the first year of profitability, which is great. But when you really dig into the numbers, there is a pretty big swing there from some extinguishable debt that they were able to remove off of the balance sheet to the tune of over $330 million. And that is enough money to swing you from being unprofitable to being profitable. And if you look at the business from a gap perspective, the business is still unprofitable there. So some nuance there that I think is worth teasing out, that the headlines probably didn't quite capture. But I'll give them this, their whole model at the end of the day, let's get the concerts in there. They can generate some attention and some buzz, but the real money maker behind this are the experiences, the shows that we can show on repeat time and time again. We were a bit iffy on whether Postcards From Earth was going to be it, but it does look like the wizard of Oz is it. It was expensive to pull off, but they were able to pull it off. And sure, one hit doesn't mean that you've solidified the case for others, but it does give you a blueprint of what can be done moving forward.

B (7:32)

But that's the thing about that blueprint is it only works if it's replicable. Right. And it's a really tough thing to replicate. I mean, I think the wizard of Oz works so well and was a hit because it checked a bunch of the right boxes for them. It was this globally recognizable iconic IP that also happens to be really visually striking, really theatrical. It has fans across generations. There's a nostalgia appeal. It's family friendly. I could go on. And it ended up being licensable, which was also something that may not be the case for something that they want to work with. So I think the stars kind of aligned with that one. Because I also really wonder about the half life of these shows. And that's something that we haven't really gotten to see in the financials. It's not really broken down that way.

A (8:15)

Right. How many times can you get people to want to see the same thing over and over? Because there obviously is an attraction piece of it where even if you've watched wizard of Oz plenty of times, in fact, the more times you've probably seen it yourself may increase the amount of times you'd want to see it in a venue or setting like this. But I do wonder, what are the other types of things that you can do this with? I think of so many Disney movies like a Fantasia or something like that, where if you're able to feel the wind blowing in that type of experience, it brings me back to being at Universal Studios or one of those where you'd be on one of those Honey I Shrunk the Kid vines or Terminator 2. When you're going through the experience, can you take some Christopher Nolan movie like Interstellar or the Odyssey? They want all the crazy Nolan heads out there. They wouldn't pay 100, 200 bucks a ticket to go see that in the highest level experience.

B (9:06)

I was even thinking things like Jurassic Park. I feel like people go to Sphere to experience something that they're just not able to in real life, or that they maybe can but don't want to, like skydiving or like extreme sports, which is, you know, what they're doing next. And so that immediately goes to things like dinosaurs or fantastical worlds or outer space or deep in the ocean.

A (9:31)

Yeah, we can talk about how easy it is just naming them, but there are so many things that need to be put in place for this to happen, which is pretty similar on the artist side. So we can talk a bit about that there were 37 more concerts and there was a pretty wide mix. I know they weren't up to the Tati Sirisano standard, but they were pretty wide mix.

B (9:51)

Which is just one person, by the way. Lots of millions of people. It lived up to the standards for.

A (9:58)

So millions of people are saying it's good from what I've heard. But you've had. You had the Eagles, you had Fish, you had the Backstreet Boys as well. And then coming this year, there's Metallica, which was just announced. There's also the Mayweather Pacquiao fight as well. So they're getting more into to boxing and other events like that. No doubt. Backstreet Boys coming back again. So there are getting more artists in there. I think the Eagles ticket is probably the most expensive and maybe the most lucrative. Just when you consider the age and the disposable income of the average goer there compared to maybe. No doubt in Backstreet Boys is on the lower end. I mean, this is all still high, to be clear, right? This is one of the most expensive tickets in the world to see any show. But just relatively speaking. But if you're able to use these concerts to cast a wide enough net, then that can still generate enough demand, not just for those concerts, but for

B (10:56)

where real money is made in terms of the lineups. It's such a tricky sort of trade off because I feel like the sphere has boxed itself in a little bit to being a place for like these safe bets, these icons, these sort of legacy acts, returning bands like Backstreet Boys. This entire undertaking was such a risk that you can't take too much risk with who you're putting on the bill. But it also means that the next stage and what hopefully they'll be able to achieve in the coming years is having a little bit more diversity of acts and a little bit more edginess or sort of that cool factor that younger generations are going to be really excited to see a show there for. They've taken so many risks in the building of this thing. I almost want more risky and future forward lineups to match that. And that's not instead of what they have. It's more of, I think that we need that sort of in addition to.

A (11:53)

So I know I put Dua Lipa's words in your mouth, but give me an example. Who comes to mind.

B (11:58)

Lady Gaga comes to mind immediately for me, as someone who was known for a bit of theatricality and camp and I think would, I mean has an iconic catalog is instantly Recognizable around the world, so checks those boxes that the sphere kind of needs, but is also someone who I could see, see being excited to dive into this medium and create something really special for it. You and I talked last time about how when you're a globally touring artist, sometimes the question becomes, why stay at the sphere and reach, you know, that number of people when you could have a global arena and maybe even stadium tour? But she's someone who I could see, like, totally working well and also not, I don't think being a risk. Like, she's. She seems like a safe bet to me.

A (12:45)

I don't think she would say no. I think she's said yes to a lot of things that have come on her plate recently. Whether it was the Paris Olympics of 2024, coming back to do the super bowl with Bad Bunny. Just now, she just performed at the Grammys. She was just at.

B (12:59)

She's everywhere.

A (13:00)

So from agents I've talked to that have at least explored the idea of the sphere for themselves and their artists that do rep younger artists with more recent fan bases, I would say I do think that they still feel like the cost is incredibly high. And I think for them, a group like U2 or the Eagles clear that bar. In terms of, okay, we know that we can expect to get this many people that are coming through for the event. The thing with Lady Gaga, maybe even as opposed to a DUA Leap or others, is that Lady Gaga can do a stadium tour. She has done it and we've seen her do that. She has the reach there. And there's also nearly 20 plus years of music. I saw the data recently from Spotify that the Fame Monster is now the highest streamed album from the 2000s. I'm like slowing down when I speak it to make sure that I'm saying the stack correctly. And I mean, that's not a knock to a no Doubt or Backstreet Boys. I'm just thinking of artists that are the closest to that era. Those groups are clearly a bit more dated than Lady Gaga is. But I think if they can get the draw, I definitely Gaga good.

B (14:08)

Because this is like, would you. Would you label it a throwback? And for Gaga, she's still, you know, an active artist with new fans and old fans. And I think a really good combination or helpful combination for this sort of thing of fervent super fans, but also so many casual fans who would sort of say, oh, I'm going to Vegas for this Bachelorette or for this conference or whatever while I'm there, Lady Gaga's playing. Sure. Let me go see that.

A (14:35)

Yeah, Answer the other point you mentioned earlier about just global touring and some of the trade off there. If anything, we've seen more recently, more of these artists and their teams are wanting to stay in one place and reap the rewards of doing that. Harry Styles is doing 30 shows at Madison Square Garden this year. Look at Beyonce's tour model last year for Cowboy Carter. She had many residencies in each city and was very selective about it. Right. So the artists are being mindful of cost being in one area for a set amount of time. And I know that the spheres cost to actually create the actual set piece and the technology behind it may be quite high. But that but at least for the artist, those are travel costs that they wouldn't have to incur the same way that they would otherwise. And especially for someone like Lady Gaga. She already went on this Chromatica tour. She's not probably going to tour again for at least another couple of years.

B (15:30)

And I think it helps fear that it's becoming both more normalized for artists to stay in one place and more normalized for people to travel to see concerts.

A (15:41)

If you love listening to trapital, I want to put you onto another podcast that I think you'll really enjoy. It's called One Song. It's hosted by Diallo, Riddle and Luxury. Each episode unpacks one iconic track. They break down the original musical stems so you can hear how the song was built while also diving into the creative choices and cultural forces that shape the song. If you're into how music, media and culture intersect, this show is very much in that lane. You'll hear songs you already love in a completely new way. Check out One Song wherever you get your podcasts. This episode of Trapital is brought to you by Symphonic, where you can build your career on your terms. Symphonic empowers independent artists and labels to stay in control while building sustainable global careers. Symphonic provides the tools, technology and support needed to distribute music worldwide, manage catalogs, collect royalties, and grow with clarity and confidence. From global distribution and marketing to data, insights and label services, Symphonic meets you where you are, whether you're releasing your first track or scaling an established catalog. As a proudly independent, minority owned company, Symphonic combines powerful tech with human relationships, helping you understand options, protect your rights and make decisions that serve your long term goals. Learn more about Symphonic by going to symphonic.com or click the link in our show notes.

B (17:17)

One thing that we talked about last time in terms of actual events that I feel like is still a good Fit is esports also because it's something that people are sort of already used to watching, sort of virtually and in like virtual environments. But something else I wanted to bring up this time and I don't know, this isn't really, this isn't really an event. It's more of something I think they could do for like the immersive film side of thing is I feel like there's, there's an, there's like a, a Netflix partnership and a Stranger Things experience here. This is a, this is, this is my pitch. I, I think that Sphere could do with a longer term partnership with Netflix in that way. Netflix, which has already run ads on the exosphere, is already exploring things like experiences and retail and has a lot of IP that is built around sort of like fantastical environments, lots of lore, sort of cult fan bases. And I, I feel like Sphere could be a place where Netflix or other companies. Like, it could sort of give franchises their afterlife and it could become sort of fandom events, fan fest, different conferences that revolve around, around fandom.

A (18:29)

For the Stranger Things experience, you're talking less, oh, let's have the season finale here, but let's create some fantastical experience that is based on the IP totally

B (18:39)

like inside the Upside down. And it's like you're going in there, you're facing all of the big characters and there's sort of, you're not retelling the story. But I think there's enough sort of lore to expand on that there could be something that fans would really enjoy and maybe go multiple times to the same way that, you know, you do the same, the same rides when you go to, you know, a theme park year after year.

A (19:06)

Right, right. One thing I was thinking about was the same way that KM has created the opportunity for you to be sitting courtside or sitting on the 50 yard line watching a sporting event. Could they have an elevated experience to watch the biggest sporting events as well?

B (19:26)

Yeah, and I was also, I was thinking about sports viewing too and I was wondering what would go into that sort of production wise, like the coolest thing would be, oh my God, all these players have like cameras and you can, what you're watching through their perspective and there's like this really cool experience with it. But would we, would we actually be able to do that and would people want to do that on these teams? I'm not sure. And then I think there's also that question, really good question you brought up of, of like how much you can charge for that and how Much people actually want it because it's sort of this middle ground between being there and just watching it at home. And it's the, the question is like, do people want that middle ground or would they rather go big or go home sort of in that experience?

A (20:07)

Yeah, because I think specifically with pro football as well, it's now reached this point where the at home experience, especially with these quality TVs and the increased production value from the networks is so good that you really need to have a lower bull level seat at a sporting event to justify going there if you're going to be in the nosebleeds. Unless it's purely for like the experience, it's hard to say that the experience of watching a NFL game from the nosebleeds or even a college football game for the nosebleeds is better than watching it at home when you have friends around. So the experience would need to be that far above and beyond elevated in order to justify the price. And again, Kosm has clearly shown that they can do that. But again, it's a slightly different, different product there.

B (20:53)

Yeah, agreed.

A (20:55)

We should talk about expansion plans because last time you and I talked, we talked briefly about Sphere London and why that didn't work. We now have two locations that are in the works. One is farther along than the other, but the first is a franchise model of the sphere that they'll be pushing in Abu Dhabi that is being paid for by their dct, that's their group that's tied to the sovereign wealth fund that is boosting tourism there. And then you also have this new mini sphere that has been pitched in Maryland right next to that national harbor area. So you're able to capture some of the traffic that's there in the D.C. baltimore area specifically. What are your thoughts?

B (21:35)

The mini sphere is really interesting. I think it's like 6,000 seats or something like that. When the, the, the, the main sphere is what, like 18,000, 17,000, something like that. So it's a good deal smaller and so you can still have those immersive films. I'm unclear, like what if any artists would be the right fit for there. Do you have thoughts on that?

A (21:58)

I mean, in terms of content, I think there's a world where you could repurpose, let's say the wizard of Oz experience for sure have that on the east coast at this venue.

B (22:08)

Yeah, but that feels to me like the main use and I wonder in terms of the events and things that the core sphere is, is hosting, even though those aren't the majority of the revenue, if that would still work in a mini sphere, I still think you

A (22:22)

could have the concerts. I think if you were to go one tier down, some of today's top pop stars who may be the biggest artists of the world from a streaming perspective. But could they fill a venue like the sphere Maryland, even if it's only 6,000 tickets? It's not necessarily that it's 6,000 tickets. Is that the ticket prices could be 500 bucks or higher?

B (22:46)

They must be. They kind of have to be that. Yeah.

A (22:49)

Like if you are Harry Styles, if you are Dua Lipa or one of these artists, that's more in that range, could the cost be a little bit less? There's a case to be made there.

B (23:00)

Yeah. I just think it sounds like it would be hard to find the right fit. Like artists might end up being either too big or too small. There may end up being like a slimmer list of people who are the right fit for it.

A (23:13)

Oh, interesting. I look at it kind of like if you can do a stadium tour in the United States and potentially globally, then you can probably do a show at the Sphere Vegas. Right. Or residency at the sphere of Vegas.

B (23:27)

Yeah.

A (23:28)

But if you're an artist that can do a stadium show in some of the bigger cities in the US but an arena show in most of the others, then I think you could probably do the sphere Maryland at a 6,000 capacity.

B (23:42)

No, I think you can. I'm not saying that they can't. I'm saying will they want to? Will that artist then say, well, why am I playing to 6,000 people when I could be playing to 20,000?

A (23:51)

Yeah. Based on what we saw from U2 and the numbers that they did with their Sphere residency, if an artist that is doing 6,000 seats at the Sphere Maryland, the guarantee that they probably get from the promoter is years beyond what it would be for otherwise similar 6,000 person venue.

B (24:09)

Yeah. I mean, and otherwise, I think the expansion plans need to work. It feels like the success of Sphere as a whole sort of hinges on this idea that these immersive films and things that they're pumping all this money into can be played across this sort of network of spears around the world. The idea makes sense, but of course there's a lot of political football having to get by regulation and lawmakers and even building these things. So much money involved all around. Like there's. There's definitely a lot of risk.

A (24:42)

I think I have some reservations as well with the Maryland one, but for different reasons. I would say. Yeah, tell me The Abu Dhabi one makes more sense to me right now. Just because this is a franchise model, they are paying for it, they have the money for it, even if it is not profitable for several years. I have no doubt that they are willing to foot the bill because they want to see this work. They're making long term investments in it. That one makes sense. Maryland though, I think the location, I will say does make sense. You're able to have something on the east coast that is good business. I know that there are some tax subsidies that are coming through. There's apparently $2 million, $200 million that is being put towards this that can help with the build. But can you command the demand for both of these? And sure, if you're able to have the wizard of Oz and it gives you another venue to have the wizard of Oz work, then great, that makes sense. I get it. Everyone is after the premium dollar for the consumer. So it's natural to want to create more supply for things that can command that premium dollar. But is the demand from the consumers going to be there not necessarily because of interest, but because of the combination of interest, willingness to pay, the desire to pay? I don't doubt that artists will want to participate, but I question some of the other economics.

B (26:00)

Yeah. And I think like the bar for all of this is just incredibly high because these venues can't just do reasonably well. It has to be great.

A (26:12)

Yeah. You and I haven't talked yet in this episode again about just the advertising and sponsorships, which isn't as big of a revenue streams as the residencies or the experience. But it still is a meaningful one. And it's also a bit lumpy. 2024 was a huge year because they had the super bowl and they were able to sell so much demand off of that 2025 there was less than that because guess what, there was no super bowl that was there. And I know that there's plenty of other events or something always happening in Vegas, but foot traffic in Vegas is down currently at this moment at around 5 to 8% compared to where it was this time in 2025. There's a case to be made that foot traffic doesn't necessarily always correlate to the type of person that goes to the sphere because it's not that you're just trying to attract anyone, you're trying to attract the type of person that may go to an event and. But could that lead to less traffic for that random Tuesday or Wednesday someone just happens to be in for a work eventually? Oh, what's going on. My wife was actually in Vegas for this work conference back in the fall. She was like, oh, should I go to the Sphere or should I go to a John Legend concert? And she went to the John Legend concert. Right. That's how the decision making works for a lot of people. Yeah,

B (27:41)

Totally. And I think that there's also people that do go. Even if you're not someone who specifically going to Vegas or planned your trip.

A (27:49)

I wasn't one of those people.

B (27:51)

But the reasons people go to Vegas

A (27:53)

talk to more and more people are

B (27:54)

the reasons people go to the experience for spectacle. You know, it's, it's, it's for that sort of experience.

A (28:01)

If you're a family of four, I don't know if you're trying to stay at Win necessarily. Right, right. But we look at all of the hotel options out of there. You get pool access, you get buffet access. It can end up being pretty affordable for a family.

B (28:16)

Okay, fair enough. I haven't done my research any other.

A (28:19)

I know we talked a bit about risks, opportunities, but are there any others that you see either in terms of things that you see as caution flags for them or things that you think they could consider?

B (28:29)

I think there's two. One is something that we didn't talk about last time. How when you have something like this, there's this danger of it becoming like an imax where you and I probably remember the first time we saw an IMAX movie and it was insane. And now the technology has evolved so much past that that it doesn't seem so crazy anymore. And I think with the pace that tech is developing at, I think that that's always a risk for businesses that are centered on like a tech experience is that it's hard for me to tell. I don't think this is an immediate threat, by the way. I think this is just something they need to think. The long term future. I think it can be difficult to tell how long before something that feels shiny and amazing and new will. I know it sounds crazy. Start to feel not as unbelievable anymore. That's what we said about lots of things in the past that have sort of become the norm now. So I think the pace of technology evolving and people's expectations around it is a risk for any company like this.

A (29:28)

I think the journey of IMAX especially is if we're going back to like late 90s, even early 2000s, oh, wow, this thing looks cool. Never seen anything like this. And then interest maybe dips a bit because it's like, oh, this thing Seems like it kind of just belongs in a planetarium to see fishes up close and animals like that. But then it's like, oh, okay, it's starting to turn. We're seeing more superhero movies. Leverage a technology and then you get to the point where it's got in the past few years where, okay, IMAX is bouncing back a bit because now if people are going to the movies, they want it to feel like it is an event. So they were able to sell out in advance for Dune or some other big IMAX draw in that way. And I took your concern more so as the sphere is currently in the first part of that arc and then could it get to the second part of that arc where there is a dip in where it currently is but TBD on whether it could get to that third arc?

B (30:27)

That's exactly how I feel. But IMAX leaders don't have the overhead, something like Cyr does. Right? So like the risks are just really high. The other thing I just wanted to mention that I think is really interesting, that comes up a lot if you like get into the weeds of their financial report is just the fact that there's no comparison for this and how that's both a risk and an opportunity. Like there are multiple times in the financial report where they mentioned we don't have an established basis of comparison. We don't know if people will continue to embrace this new platform because there's nothing to compare it to. And like I just said, IMAX can't compare it to that either. Like there isn't something that we can say, oh, the last time someone did this, here's how, here's how long it took for the tech to need to be updated. Here's how long the demand was Curiosity based versus blah blah blah. And being novelty, like we don't have that.

A (31:13)

I remember talking to a hedge fund manager that had the same question for me. He says, what bucket would you put this in? And it is nebulous because it is an ongoing question. Do you try to position this like an experience like Disney World? That may seem very ambitious, but it's also not like Disney World in a lot of ways. And that's where the comps can get very difficult with this because then a lot of people feel like the stock itself is mispriced. I will say the stock has doubled in price and as a result Sphere has doubled in its market cap since September of 2025. A lot of that is based on a lot of the press that it's gotten around the success of the wizard of Oz experience specifically. Some people may think it's overpriced, some people may think it's underpriced. And the only hard thing you really have is just revenue, cost and profit. The end of the day, I feel

B (32:05)

like Sphere is almost what VR wanted to be. Sort of plays off similar interests, I think, as virtual reality, where it's bringing people to places they can't be, allowing them to experience things that they maybe can or don't do in real life. Have this sort of out of body experience. But the missing element with VR is that you're not really experiencing it with other people. Even if there's these headsets where you can see other people who are in their headsets or whatever it is. Is this an elevated film? You said something about like Broadway, like how does this, what, what words that exist today would we bring in here? And I think that's it for me is Sphere is what VR wants to be.

A (32:40)

And I think the challenge that VR has always had that it's never quite been able to capture is how do we create the type of thing that people want to talk to their friends about to show off that, oh, I looked at this and the fact that you're wearing this damn headset.

B (32:53)

Right.

A (32:54)

Completely takes away from that. Think about you trying to tell someone about this experience and someone takes a picture of you wearing a headset. No one wants to see that. I've been to VR experiences. I went to this Megan Thee Stallion experience that they had. Oh yeah, AMC Metreon.

B (33:10)

I've seen that.

A (33:11)

San Francisco sad too.

B (33:13)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (33:14)

I mean, cool, right? But again, if you look to the theater, we're all just there wearing these giant white binoculars. As opposed to the Sphere where there was a friend of mine that had went with a bunch of his friends to someone's 40th birthday that they went to celebrate at the Sphere. They went to the Backstreet Boys show and they all dressed up in. In white like they were in the Backstreet Boys, I want it that way music video. And they took a picture of themselves in front of it. And it's one of the things that can capture attention, go wide. And I'm not saying that the only reason that someone goes through the Sphere is for the anticipated memory of taking a picture of it and posting it on socials. But it's hard to ignore that dynamic of society. And VR offers none of that.

B (33:58)

Yeah. And also just the experience of doing that with those friends all being there together in person with what's in front of you feeling almost like you're in a VR headset. But you also have your buddy, like, literally right next to you in a matching white suit. Like, that can't be repeated in just a VR headset.

A (34:15)

I thought the Meg thee Stallion experience I saw was cool, but there was nothing that made me gasp or awe or feel like I was connected to anyone else. I probably forgot the person next to me was even there.

B (34:26)

Exactly.

A (34:26)

Let me ask you this. How many spheres can the world hold? Because you did ask this question. You put it in the show docs. How many spheres can the world maintain?

B (34:35)

I want to say, like three to five. I'm sort of on the conservative end of it, only because I do think that the more that you have, the more it could end up denting, like, the novelty around it, sort of. Even if it's just as amazing at every one. I think maybe five. I don't know that I would go higher than that.

A (34:57)

Yeah. Although I do not think that the comp is Disney World, when I think about how many Disney worlds there are, I think that's the max of what you could see because I think there's some similarities there. Off the top, you have Walt Disney World, Lake Buena Vista, Florida. You have the one in Southern California, Disney World, Japan, Disney World, France, Paris. There's the Abu Dhabi one. So that's five right there.

B (35:21)

Start plotting their world domination while we

A (35:23)

look to buy our tickets. You can hold out for Dua Lipa, maybe. I'll see if. No doubt.

B (35:28)

Sounds good.

A (35:30)

But thanks, Tati. Appreciate you coming on.

B (35:32)

Yeah, thanks, Dan. Catch you next time.

A (35:36)

And that is a wrap. Thank you again to Tati Sirsano for joining us to break down the sphere and whether or not it's a good business. Thank you to Gian Eric, our video and audio producers, for everything that you do to help make this show possible. And thank you for listening. If there's one person you know that would really enjoy trapital and get a lot out of it, then send them a link to the show. Word of mouth is still the best way to grow. And if you have a few minutes to spare, then leave us a comment. Leave us a review. Wherever you get your shows, wherever you listen to your podcast that helps trapital reach the right people and helps the algorithm do its thing. Thanks again. Talk to you next time.