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Foreign.
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I'm Dan Runcy and you're listening to trapital and you're about to hear the breakdown and recap from our second annual trapital Summit. I'm joined by partner in crime Tati Sirisano. This is now the second year that she's been a key part of this event and making it happen. So we're going to talk about all of it. We're going to talk about the 11th hour curveball that we were thrown in needing to change venues given the neue House Chapter 7 bankruptcy filing. You'll also hear us talk about key insights, takeaways, and everything that goes into making a day like the trapital Summit happen. From the programming, the talks on stage, who's in the room, key themes to hit focus, trade offs and more. It was great to reflect on it all, especially while it's top in mind and especially while we're starting to get some early feedback from attendees. It truly was a special day and I'm so grateful for the sponsors and the partners who helped make this event possible, the speakers who took time out of their busy schedule to come join us on stage and. And the attendees who took time out of their busy schedule to help make this room the valuable resource that it was of people that are pushing this industry forward. So I hope you enjoy listening to our breakdown. Let's dive in. All right, we are here with Tati Sirisano and we are doing a recap of the second annual trapital Summit.
- [01:21]
A
Yeah. We did it. You did it. I mean, congrats, Dan. You pulled it off.
- [01:25]
B
Once again, I cannot take all credit here. This was a team effort all around and you were a big part of making that happen. So truly, thank you.
- [01:33]
A
Thank you. How are you feeling now that we're back in our respective homes?
- [01:37]
B
I feel good. It's one of these things where the week always flies by because just like last year, we have a dinner the night before. You're getting there, you're making sure that everything is set for that. The day really starts the day before for both of us. The team at Rainn, we're fortunate enough to have them as a partner. They co hosted us. Even though you're having dinner, you want to work the room, you want to make sure you make the most of that and then you have the event itself and a few meetings, catching up with people and then flying back the next day. So the week always flies by.
- [02:06]
A
And now I'm sifting through my notes and like the random things that I emailed to myself to remember from Conversations that I had and just trying to figure out like what's next. So this is a great time to be doing this pod.
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B
Let's kick things off here. What's your initial reaction from the summit itself now that it's behind us?
- [02:22]
A
It's such a great high impact, high value event for being one day. And my hot take is that all conferences should be a day. I feel like it's a a great setup. It's a very focused event in that way because you know you only have a day. You know, there's only eight conversations, there's a couple of networking things. It's a jam packed day like we've just talked about. Felt like a fever dream but I got so much out of it going two years in a row. It was a cool milestone or time marker of where we're at as an industry. So yeah, I had a great time.
- [02:51]
B
Yeah, that's good feedback because especially on the days piece of it, there's a case to be made for making it a day and a half event. Maybe you have a second day that is just half a day the day after. Maybe you have an evening the night before that isn't just a cocktails and nights but it is an actual talk that is that evening. Then you have the next day. So there's a few ways to go about it. But while it's good to hear that you similarly like the one day let's be focused on it, boom, get the most out of it and then you can obviously structure things around that. But it's in a different capacity than the program in itself.
- [03:24]
A
It feels like a music industry family reunion at the Truthfield Summit. So many people that I've worked with in the past, like I was seeing Billboard colleagues there, Taylor Gail from Billboard. I ran into so many people that I wanted to see and maybe hadn't met yet and really wanted to meet. So it was cool in that way.
- [03:41]
B
This industry is so small in a lot of ways. Even though there are various people, various companies, so many people, especially in post pandemic times have switched jobs but they're still in this space. Even if they're moving around, you're more likely to have ran into someone somewhere. And I think that obviously events like these can be a pretty large undertaking, but you have to always come in with high expectations for it and wanting to make sure we deliver on that because we do value it as a premium event in a lot of ways. A the ticket prices are not cheap but we also make sure that if we are going to position it and package it as such, then we need to deliver on that. And it's not just my perception of that being delivered well, but how people feel that actually spent their time, their money, their own resources, because the opportunity cost, especially for the people in this room, is high. So if you're pulling them out from their work for a day, that in many ways is more expensive for what those people do in their day to day lives for their companies than the ticket they bought. So you always have to keep that in mind. So literally how we spend every minute of the day matters. So believe me, that is not to say that the event was perfect. I think there's always things that you can tweak and we've already started to get some good feedback there. But I'm incredibly proud and grateful for how well everything went on Wednesday.
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A
Speaking of high stakes, you need to walk us through the event venue change and if I'm wondering if you ever had any moment where you thought maybe this wouldn't happen. Like, how intense did it get?
- [05:19]
B
So for those that have or haven't been following the elephant in the room is this. Last Wednesday, September 3rd, I get a text message from our event producer, Jesse Meyer from GEM Solutions, because he has been the one that was in most close contact with Noya House Hollywood, where we had the 2024 Trapital Summit and where we had planned to have the trapital Summit this year, sends me a text asking me if I could FaceTime. So I paused and I say, all right, Jesse. And I don't FaceTime. And it's six o', clock, it's after working hours for both of us. What is this about? But it's the week before an event, we talk, kind of pause to bring it out because I think he was even trying to process it himself and gives me the news just an hour before it went public. For everyone else, that Neue House, both the New York and LA locations shutting down, filing for bankruptcy and the doors are shutting on Friday, September 5, which therefore means that our event on Wednesday, September 10 cannot happen. This comes just two days after we make our final deposit payment that we paid to know your house Hollywood. So we're then in that initial call being, okay, wow, what do we do here to help make this all happen? Like, how do we salvage this? And I know this may be easy to say in the moment, but I honestly do believe this. I knew that this event was going to happen one way or another. And I think the biggest reason I felt that was because I said, okay, let's Take a step back. It's a Wednesday midweek, just after Labor Day. It's not like there's a whole lot of other things that are going on. We want to keep this event, but if you're going to host an event at another venue, you need to make sure you have all the cash immediately because of how close the event is. Are we going to find somewhere that's available and how much is said place going to cost, just given where the flow of money is? As we're hosting an event, we're waiting on invoices coming on the other side, ticket sales, sponsorship dollars, all of those things. But still, I told myself there is enough options to make this work. And luckily I got a number of text messages from different people. Whether it was companies that were partnered with already or friends that weren't even coming to the summit that just knew the situation and reached out. And all those people, I'm so grateful they were able to help. But luckily, with a lot of the emails that we sent Wednesday night came back, there were a lot of options available. We were able to make things work. And in some ways, the venue that we found, Sunset Room Hollywood, achieved a few things. There was a lot of the look and feel of Neue House, and frankly, some things that I thought were even better that worked out in this venue that we can talk about. And then specifically with an event like this, the venue matters so much. There's so many things that go into the details that we want to make sure can stay the same. Luckily, it worked out probably better than it could have, but again, all of the credit I think for this does go to Jesse. The event production team obviously were able to help make a few calls to make it happen. But I'm grateful that it all worked.
- [08:15]
A
And I did hear a bunch of people saying that they actually liked the venue better that they thought that it. That it was for the best, even. And yeah, I remember catching up with Jesse about it backstage and he was saying how in all his many years working in event production, nothing like this had ever happened. Because I was asking him, like, how unusual is this? And, yeah, insane, but huge props to bull, both of you for pulling it off.
- [08:37]
B
Because I think the type of chaos that I would have expected, honestly, is, oh, one speaker got stuck in travel or something like that. Totally can no longer make it. Sorry. And then we have to scramble, because I remember telling you about that beforehand. If anything happens today, I want to switch this up like that way so that we can do it. But that's the kind of Stuff that, like, I know we can figure it out. This was a next level, 11th hour curveball. And then even some partners that were like, before I had the set game plan, beyond just hearing me be confident about, they're like, oh, what if you moved it to a different date? Could that work? And I remember just telling them, I was like, no, we are not moving the event. I will call you back. And then just. It's like, just wait.
- [09:16]
A
Your phone must have been blowing up.
- [09:19]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and to be clear, like, no one was mad. Everyone's aware that it's like, out of my control. But they were just like, okay, we got to see. But you just had to over communicate, like, we have a game plan. You will hear from me in the next 48 hours. Right. Because again, people plan their days and times around this, and you just want to be very thoughtful of that. But since you've now been there for year one and year two, obviously we talked a little bit about the venue, but what's your take on what's changed? What evolved and what felt different, what felt similar?
- [09:46]
A
I think that what I really enjoy about the summit and what I've heard from others, they enjoy is how intimate it feels. You know, we all go to a lot of these conferences, and sometimes the panels can feel a bit staged or people. You can't tell if they're speaking with an agenda or what. I feel like the summit conversations always feel very intimate and like people are being more real. You have real conversations about the industry with others that are in the room. And I think that same feeling carried over to this year and maybe actually even a bit more with the venue. Something about it felt a little bit closer. We were closer to the stage. I don't know, the area where you would network was a bit closer. The lunch was a bit closer. It even more engineered that vibe, which was great. It just felt a little bit even more of what people liked about it in the first place, which is being very focused and being very intimate. So in terms of the actual vibe and the structure, those were my takeaways.
- [10:37]
B
I think we've been to plenty of events, not just in music, but in all areas where you often will have four or five people on a panel. Everyone gets their talking points. And it does beg the question, okay, what is the purpose of this panel? Conferences do cost money to put on, and there is an aspect of the networking and the ability that you do want to make sure that you do offer, but you also want to make sure that the talks that you have that are on stage, are delivering in a way that is unique. For instance, like, I know you're not the biggest podcast person, but for anyone that listens or engages in that type of stuff, they know that the bar for your time and your listening is quite high. You want to feel like there is some connections, some insights, something gained and gathered. Think about the person that would be spending time listening to something on their commute. Is this the kind of conversation that they would want to hear? These focused conversations you're getting people that people actually do want to hear from. And something that you even mentioned to me backstage when we're talking about, you were like, when you were interviewing Andrew from Udio on stage, you said, I looked to the audience, I didn't see people on their phones. And that's a pretty table stakes thing that happens. And I think that's probably for a few reasons. Right. Andrew really hasn't done like much press or events in that type of way. And many people may not have even heard him talk. Right. They just want to see, okay, I keep hearing this company, let's hear what he has to say. So that brings part of it. But you also did preparation to ask and make sure that the conversation went in a way. So that is the bar that we're talking about. Because if you're just having some conversation so that someone can just sit there on their phone until the break happens, then what are we doing here? We'll get to the networking piece about it because obviously there was some intentionality there as well. But I think for the conversations, that's something that I would echo.
- [12:31]
A
And I feel like whenever I do these, these OnStage Discussions, the two metrics of success I have is one, how many people were on their phones, hopefully not that many. And two, how many people were taking notes. And there were people taking notes, which sometimes happened on their phones. But I could tell people would look up and say, oh, write that down. That's another thing that I saw throughout the day, which was awesome. And I was curious because I have thoughts on how the conversation and the topics have evolved. And before getting into that, just wondering, like how you program this. How did you decide what you wanted to focus on? I get that some of these topics, obviously AI is top of mind. You want to have that be in there somewhere. But I think it would be interesting for people to hear the behind the scenes, how the pie gets made.
- [13:11]
B
Yeah. I think with events like this, I think about programming in two ways. Right. There's programming in terms of the talks on stage. And then there's programming in terms of who is in the room that people can meet and make connections with or re foster those, whether it's in the networking breaks, who you're sitting next to during a talk, lunch, and things like that. So three big questions that I had that I kept going back to throughout 2025. One, how are the big companies in this industry going to adapt to the future? The future implying where streaming is heading, where emerging market growth is heading, where the platforms versus the music rights holders are going in terms of their power and influence that they have. That's one area. The second area, where is the money being invested? Because we're seeing more money pouring into music more than ever. But there's very specific areas where that money is going and others that it isn't going right. So just two areas, to name one area being music rights. We've seen many of the majors and even some of the indies make some pretty big investments getting PE firms alongside. We've also seen more investment in live entertainment venues and companies like Live nations and others getting involved. And then the third piece, as you mentioned as well, AI, everyone wants to know what's next? Where are we going not just with what's happening in music, but what's happening with the big tech companies in the space and the hundreds of billions of dollars they're investing. But we also are seeing these lawsuits happening as well. So how does all of that trickle down? So in answering those three questions, that then leads to those two elements of programming. So one is who are the people that you want to have on stage to be able to help answer those questions? And even if they don't have these set answers yourself, you still want to be able to help bring that out. So that brings up the mix of, okay, who is on the stage? So that's why it was ideal to have people that are actually leading these discussions and making those decisions at their respective companies? Oliver Schuster runs Apple Music, leads podcasts, Apple tv plus the sports packages as well. That is his lane. Apple Music is one of the largest contributors of revenue of music to this entire industry, just given everything that they touch. So that was a great talk and I'm glad that things were able to happen underway for that to happen. Elliot Grange is in charge of Atlantic Music Group. Not only is that one of the most storied record labels, but still, despite some of the slippage in recent years, up until when he got there, one of the largest in terms of market share as well, and some of the largest artists and some of the rising ones too, that's worth discussing and breaking down. But then you also have people like Steve Pammen that have looked at all areas of entertainment and everyone's talking about how do you grow the pie, how do you look at this? How does music look beyond itself? This guy knows it better than anyone. And I'm glad that came through. And that was insightful. So that just gives an idea of, okay, how do we think about putting all this together from just the programming and the speaker side specifically, but then on the attendee side, in many ways, that arguably matters even more, because as good as the talks may be on stage, people come to events like this for network, Whether they are spending their own money on a ticket, whether their company is expensing it, or they are being involved as a sponsor, who is in the room matters. So that makes a big push in how we market this event. There are pushes made to attract the investment banks, to attract the VC firms, to attract the major and indie labels, the leadership at those labels, to be able to be at this type of event and selling them on why it matters. Luckily, word of mouth grows and that then helps, I think, with some of the momentum we had from last year leading up to this year. But I'm grateful that I've gotten to at least know personally or through other people, a lot of the people that were in that room to help make it happen. Just considering the reach in place I have with trapital, but making sure that we have time built in the day. And from a time perspective, if you include lunch and the cocktail reception, there was more time for networking than there was for the actual talks on stage. And things like that are intentional as well. So that's how I thought about bringing the day together. Who's in the room and then who's on stage, but particularly who is in the room to also help enhance those questions. So that's how I think about it.
- [17:30]
A
No, that's fascinating. And I think such a good sort of lesson or takeaway for anybody who is putting on these sorts of events is who you put on stage is important, but who's in the room is almost more important. And it showed that you were thinking equally about the, you know, the onstage talks as you were about making sure that people in attendance got as much as they could out of the connections.
- [17:50]
B
There's a lot of people that attended that enjoy the podcast episodes where you and I talk about what's happening in the industry and sharing our opinion. So the fact that there was time for that, I think was Valuable because that also is where insights and takeaways and things like that. And the fact that it's not just us coming up with these topics like we normally do, we're pulling it from them as well. And I think too, with that going down a session, every minute matters in a lot of ways. And I know a lot of people had talked about, oh, like the events on time and they appreciated that the panels started and ended on time. But I think it's especially important because we had heard the point that Steve Pammin had made from the first talk when he said, you go to an NFL game, they say it starts at 7 o'. Clock. You know that 7 o' clock or even maybe a minute or two after that ball's being kicked off. Right. You go to a WWE event, it's the same thing. But you go to a music concert, you don't know when that thing's going to start, even if the ticket says it's going to start at 7pm so you can't have that type of comment be said at the event and then be like, oh, sorry, we're running a few minutes late.
- [18:51]
A
Totally. He set that bar high.
- [18:53]
B
Because at at that point, that's where I think, okay, even if I have one more question that I wanted to slide in there, which for any of the talks I could have. Right. We could have talked to any of those people for 10, 15 minutes more. But any minute that I am spending doing that is a minute that people cannot have those other conversations because of how quickly the day goes by. That's why it's so critical to be able to just think about how the time's being used. And again, making sure that, you know, it. Maybe that last question doesn't need to be snuck in there. End on time, even at the minute early, if it allows people to catch up a bit more.
- [19:27]
A
And the things that we didn't get to, I feel like, became just things we talked about offstage with people in the room. So which is.
- [19:33]
B
Which is. Yeah, I guess. On that note, what were your thoughts on our Bold predictions segment that we did? That was our first segment that we did after lunch. We had 15 minutes. People had sent in some bold predictions that they had via surveys and we picked some of the top ones to talk about.
- [19:48]
A
I loved that session. It was fun. I think that the submissions that came in and the ones we talked about on stage, even the ones that we didn't get to, spoke to things that are on my mind a lot lately as well. Someone had sent one in about will we see mass culture come back after this period of hyper fragmentation? And that's something that's been on my mind, the convergence of formats. We talked about someone's prediction that Netflix and Spotify would merge, which neither of us agreed with, but it was interesting to discuss what would that look like? And why don't we see it happening in a world where so many formats are converging? So I loved that session. I think the only one that we didn't get to that I wish that we could have slid in there was one about authenticity coming back as the key to success, which arguably has always been a key to success. But the prediction was that it would become an even stronger metric. That will be the path to success in the future. Again, will be artists that are really authentic and creative and true to their craft. And I liked that one because it was very optimistic. And I also think it's true. I think that we're heading to this period where because things are so fragmented and because it's so hard to have staying power, there's a lot of artists that are shifting focus from trying to reach as many people as quickly as possible to instead taking a deeper look. What is my message? What is my scene? And really going deep in that and building engaged fan bases rather than just striving for a scale at all costs. But I also think there's real reasons why it is becoming even more important to be authentic and true to yourself as an artist. So that was a cool one that I feel like I wish I could have gotten time to give some shine to onstage.
- [21:21]
B
Let's take a break for our chart metric stat of the week. I was looking through the Billboard 200 for the week of September 13th to see which albums were at the top of the charts. Sabrina Carpenter's latest release, Man's Best Friend, is there. But what sticks out to me the most on these charts is that Morgan Wallen has three albums in the top 13. I'm the Problem is in the number three spot. One thing at a Time is in the number six spot, and Dangerous, the double album, is in the 13th spot. This is someone who continues to put up numbers week after week, but if you look at his Spotify numbers, it really highlights how many factors go into the charts. Morgan Wallen currently has 36 million monthly Spotify listeners, which puts him at 115th of all artists on the platform, just above the Gorillaz, just above Ty Dolla sign, and just below Gracie Abrams, Wiz Khalifa and Flo Rida. So his placement on the Spotify charts may not tell you how well his albums are really doing. So just goes to show that success on commercial formats are dependent on so many factors. We could have a whole other episode about how the Billboard 200 weights things and how it should weight things instead. But I'll pause right there and I'll spare you. Let's get back to the episode. I think that especially with the artists that have broken through in more recent years, compared to the large ones that are legacy, like we're seeing, you're seeing more and more of that, right?
- [22:48]
A
Yeah, exactly. Sabrina Carpenter, whose album just came out, has a very specific vibe, very specific aesthetic, and it works and it's working. So that's. There's a lot of examples of that recently. Chapel Rowan, all these artists.
- [22:59]
B
Were there any other segments that you had? Any takeaways or insights? I know you said you were taking notes yourself.
- [23:04]
A
I thought it was cool how there were a lot of conversations that seemed to touch on like artists as brands. But I think that's something that has come up in the past and has maybe felt a different vibe to it because it was maybe around social media brands. Whereas in these conversations it was more about looking at artists as they go far beyond their music, the fandom goes far beyond their music and how to amplify that. Nathan Hubbard from Firebird Music was talking about. I won't put words in his mouth because I don't think he said this exactly, but he was getting at music companies being almost like branding agencies, not just about the music, but about the full artist brand. I think that he also touched on the fact that artists are non scalable resources. So we can't just be having them pump out music all the time and go on tour all the time. There have to be other ways that people can engage. Steve touched on this as well. With every. Every event being in an opportunity or every live show being an opportunity to build that so that it's not. It's never just hinging on one thing for the artist. That was a cool sort of overarching trend that I saw in the conversations that felt like it built on last year's summit because last year at this time we were talking about the need to reinvest in long term artist development. That came up a lot. I remember, like Tunji from Def Jam talking about how he only agreed to the role on the stipulation that he would get at least three years to develop each artist. I feel like now we're at this point where that thinking has come back past this Era of the frenzy of TikTok signings and trying to, I don't know, these really short kind of runways of trying to get artists out there. And I do sense that we're coming back a bit to real artist development, which is so needed. And the artists, brands conversation kind of felt like it followed on from that.
- [24:43]
B
And I think similarly a number of insights I heard from all the talks in general. But I think even sometimes the cadence of like how people think about stuff, even if it isn't like what they said, I think I heard from a number of people with Oliver on stage, from Apple, they can get a clear sense for how Apple works and why he is in the position he is, just based on even how he goes about answering certain questions. After the summit, I was catching up with one of our speakers and then additionally someone else that was in the audience and the thing that they had said from that talk specifically was that that's why he's in the position that he is because they keep the main thing. The main thing meaning that there's so much focus that goes in there. Sure he has a wide gamut overseeing stuff, but there are multiple people on that team that are helping making sure that music strategy works as is and they are intentional about how they're pushing things out that way as a company. And you and I have had conversations as well on this show back. I think it was in April that we released our episode about Apple. Music is 10 years old. Is it a success? Yes or no? So it was interesting to have both that as a through line, having us having that conversation, you and I, and then hearing Oliver speak with David Israelite at the NMPA back in June and then having this conversation, you can just.
- [25:58]
A
See those through lines specifically AI was another big topic. It was, I feel like that came up in almost every conversation, but I.
- [26:06]
B
Feel like of them probably most in yours, just given that you sat down with Andrew from Udio. So from your perspective, what was that like?
- [26:13]
A
Yeah, I mean I. I learned how to pronounce Udio, which if you were there, you heard me mispronounce it like three times. But I also did like his framing of this kind of inherent need for tension for progress to happen. And it's just the case that humans will always be uncomfortable with tension and with change, but that it is ultimately the way forward and the way towards progress. So I liked that part of the conversation. It was interesting hearing him talk about the business model and not actually viewing subscriptions as the long term game for that because I feel like so many other businesses are hell bent on subscriptions. But I agree that there's this you have to recognize like subscription fatigue and people. Having people add another thing to that list is tough. There was a lot there. Obviously I felt a lot of pressure in that conversation because it's such an important topic. This is someone who doesn't speak publicly that often. People in the room are there because they want answers. It's a tense subject and I really wanted to make sure that I delivered and put everything on the table. I thought it went well and was insightful. But yeah, I hope that I did the topic justice.
- [27:22]
B
No, you did a great job and you should have all the confidence word especially about that. And I think part of the reason that wanted you to lead this session with him is because it just felt like a natural through line. You and I had the conversation last year when we were in Nashville. We recorded that episode talking about permission versus forgiveness. And we talked a lot about both Suno and Yu Dio, where they are, how they're positioned. So it was only full circle for you to then be the one not just asking him that direct question, but being able to have that conversation in the full scope of understanding how this works and not just from this wishy washy both sidesism nature of it, but understanding that there is a music rights holders piece of this. But there's also seeing holistically where this industry is, where the value is created and just understanding the dynamics that do just repeat themselves time and time again. So if there is a solution, we're probably going to need to figure out how to work together on it. And if we're just trying to point fingers based on who the respective stakeholders are, who the respective people are that currently have power versus those that don't, that doesn't necessarily do the most service to this because the companies that are leading this industry right now, especially when we talk about who has grown in market cap, who has it and who's being relied on more, a lot of those companies were in the same position decades before. That again, is not to mean we don't hold them accountable because you ask the questions and I think there's still a lot of questions out there and frankly a lot of unknowns for what the future for Yudio, what the future for Suno looks like, but there's also some tremendous potential if they're able to work it out. One and two, if the product and the business model truly finds product market fit and is able to continue growing and reaching the intended audience, totally and.
- [29:13]
A
On the forgiveness versus permission point, I actually had someone come up to me after and say that until this talk, they hadn't really thought about that dilemma from the startup perspective and how from the music industry side, it's so easy to say, of course you should ask permission because that's the right thing to do. And from the startup standpoint, a lot of times the decision is a lot more complicated. So that was a win for me that somebody in the audience felt like this shifted their perspective on something and made them understand the other side a little bit better. Because that's what we need to move forward is then to have everyone at the table pushing for progress.
- [29:48]
B
That is a great point. And if anything, that should make you feel like, okay, this is exactly what this was about. This is why we had. Right?
- [29:54]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [29:55]
B
That's good to hear. Any other takeaways?
- [29:59]
A
I think something that I really liked from Elliot's talk at the end was the comments around Gen A and even Gen B, if that's what they're going to be called. Starting to think about what their relationship to music and to art will be given the world that they're growing up in. Because I'm thinking about that already from even Gen Z's perspective. If you grow up with social media and with content creation and all of these things and think of entertainment as one bucket, you don't think about music and movies and things like that separately. What does that do to how you connect music to your identity? And we haven't gotten to the point where Gen Z as a whole are. Where the whole generation is working and generating income and paying for their own streaming subscription. I think there's still questions around will we see the same uptake that we did with Millennials and things like that. So I was just really glad that he brought that up because it's something that I think about a lot. But I feel like maybe a lot of people are thinking about it and not talking about it. I just don't hear that much in the conversation. There is a lot of, what's Gen Z like? What do they. Where do they discover music? And those types of questions. But there isn't as much, okay, wait, let's pull it back to actually, how do they actually even identify with music in the first place? And I liked that he brought that up.
- [31:09]
B
And him bringing that up and identifying that, that, frankly, is why he is in that position. Yeah, everyone saw where this is going. People clearly saw. Like you called out yourself, yes, Millennials are paying for Spotify, but Gen Z is listening to and consuming a lot of their music on a platform that the biggest major record label pulled its music from a year ago because they didn't feel like the challenge for people. How do you solve that problem? So, yes, the person that was able to make things pop with Trippie, Redd and Ice Spice. Yes, let's bring that person over. And of course, he already had distribution under UMG with, I think it was Caroline at first, and then with Capital, but then moves over Warner, then comes in. So, yes, like, that is why he's in the position that he's in. So I do think that is timely, and it's good to call that out because I still think that even if you talk to some of the more seasoned executives, the mindset is still, you have to push on radio. Like, you really have to work the record. And believe me, you do have to do that as well. Right. You look at any of the big pop songs, whether it's Chapel, Roan, Pink Pony Club, or any of the Sabrina Carpenter stuff, especially a lot of the big songs from 2024, people are still working radio, Right. So it's not like that isn't still happening. But you need to have the wide range to help understand that. I think the big question there that probably a lot of people had was, okay, you were able to do this for some of the stars that were more up and coming. How do you apply your playbook and tweak things in a different way? That really feels unique when you're working with a Bruno Mars, you're working with a Charli xcx, you're working with Ed Sheeran and some of these artists that are keeping the lights on at the label. So how do you make that work? So I'm glad we were able to talk about all lanes of that.
- [32:51]
A
Totally. What about you? Were there any other things you were taking notes on or big takeaways from the day?
- [32:57]
B
I do think about the conversation with Steve a lot because he was just very clear with his frameworks for how he thought about making and maximizing these massive moments. Because the moments matter, because everyone wants to be able to break through the noise. So I think there were some understated things about just how much preparation still goes in to the work of not just someone like Beyonce, but also someone like Taylor Swift. Right. I think a lot of people can naively assume that, well, if you just have hundreds of millions of social media followers, look at all the power you have, look at all the platform you have, you can go do anything and it's not that those things don't have power or influence, but I think that people can often understate it when there's all of these other factors that go in to help make sure that machine can work. So him emphasizing that, I think, is often helpful for whether it's artists that are at the same level as a Beyonce or Taylor, if you think that anyone is, or artists that are coming up trying to truly replicate that playbook. I think he was really sharp, and I think a number of people, and even in the feedback I've read, emphasize that they really enjoyed his session.
- [34:03]
A
Yes, he's brilliant, and I'm so glad that he spoke. It's like the devil in the details type of thing that you have to focus on every little bit of a performance or an album. When you hear Steve talk about it, you really recognize what that means and just how much effort goes into the work that he does with artists. And I believe this not just in music, but in everything. In jobs and everything in life. If you are looking at every detail and you're being super intentional and you're working that hard at the thing that you're doing, you're already above 99% of the competition. And that was the vibe that I got from even talking to him at the Trapital dinner the night before. It's sort of like that thing that gets said a lot. Hard work beats talent. You can be really talented, but if you don't have all those details in order, and if you're not working really hard and making every bit of it the best it can be, you might lose to the competition. So, yeah, I found everything he said to be super insightful.
- [34:57]
B
It's like another spin on execution over ideas, right?
- [35:00]
A
Exactly. Yes. So many good phrases around this topic.
- [35:05]
B
And I think one of the things that. That I do also want to emphasize with Steve is because. And I'm not going to say this as a knock to anyone else just to be clear, but Steve is not the type of person that is trying to campaign to make sure that he is as high as possible on the power list from one of the trade publications in the industry. And because of that, sometimes that can lead. When we're talking about the lineup, some people, you know, in full transparency, I'm telling them who's on the lineup, and they're like, like, oh, wait, oh, who's that? Not in a way like, oh, who's that? But just curious, who's that? And in my mind, I'm like, oh, you don't know until and then when you just hear the feedback and the impression that people get, that's why it matters. And of course I think that when you're crafting lineups like this, something else I didn't mention is making sure that there's a mix because you also want to have a mix of people who understand the industry ins and outs, but also have the ability to speak freely on what they understand. And he definitely leaned more towards that, as you alluded to earlier with the Andrew and Udio session. Sure. There are certain things that you know you are going to ask you may not get the most detailed response on. Okay, so tell me what do you really think about fair use? Or was this copyright infringement? Or you may not get like that, like specific type of response, not because he wouldn't give it to you otherwise, but because with PR and publicist and company standing and investors and all that, it's a very different type of thing. And that obviously goes to another level with some of the people that were officers at publicly traded companies. So. But it's important to have a mix of both because they both matter for events like this. Yeah, it's not just about getting who is the biggest name, who is the person that always shows up in headlines. It goes back to what are the key themes, what are we trying to achieve and stuff like that. And also Steve was someone that was stayed for the entire event himself and hung out in the cocktail reception and was around. Right. People enjoy that. Right. That obviously isn't every speaker for understandable reasons in their day to day lives and responsibilities. But I think people really appreciated that.
- [37:03]
A
It speaks to the caliber of the event that you're throwing to that everyone wants to stick around for the full day. So Dan, are you already starting to think about next year? How soon do you start to plan?
- [37:12]
B
I'm probably embarrassed to say that.
- [37:14]
A
Oh God.
- [37:15]
B
I also was taking an Uber to the airport Thursday. I opened up a notes app and I was like, like huh XYZ this this that. Right. So of course there's that parts of it and we already sent out a post event survey to most of the attendees and I'm already starting to get some responses and a lot of the responses, especially the points that ask about what's the one big thing that we could have improved upon. What's something that didn't work as well in terms of talks on stage? Of course there were a number of people who were very interested that we had deep conversations with but just couldn't make it to be with us this year. Those folks will always be in consideration. But I think there are early conversations like partners and venues, ideally venues that won't shut down on me and things like that. So I think all of those things go into play and I think there's even benefit for locking some of those things down even earlier. And I know that at least in this industry, after Thanksgiving things do get a bit quiet. So I will take the next two months to think seriously about at least things that make sense for pre holidays to get done. And I think there are some things that fall in line with that and then putting the rest of it into a 2026 bucket.
- [38:23]
A
I speak at a lot of conferences and sometimes we submit things and sometimes you get a call for submissions and it feels it's like nine months or something ahead of the conference and I'm like, I don't know what the music industry is going to be like. Then I gotta like, how am I supposed to submit something now? You always do have to leave a little bit of room for some big shift that could emerge. Like, I forget what actually kicked off when everyone was suddenly talking about AI, but with that it was like if you had a conference coming up the following week, you'd have to redo your whole, how are we going to fit this in? Yeah, I think that element of it is really interesting.
- [38:55]
B
As you say this, I can only imagine the number of people that had sent in panel request topics for south by Southwest because I know their whole thing starts was like NFTs and Web3 and then by six months later people are like, what?
- [39:10]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [39:11]
B
That's not what we're talking about.
- [39:12]
A
And then sometimes you go to conferences and the topics feel outdated. But I sympathize. I get it. It's tough, like you have to plan stuff ahead of time, but this industry moves so fast. So good luck with that, Dan. Okay.
- [39:23]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [39:24]
A
I'm sure you'll nail it again.
- [39:25]
B
There's always moving pieces. I think there's always room to improve upon. I'm really grateful that people have already given good feedback. I'm grateful that we work with solid partners that not only can trust and can have honest conversations back and forth about what works and doesn't work for them, whether it's you or it's our event production team or venues or anything like that. But. But no, this is a year or two that I do feel really proud about, even beyond just the financial piece of it. Sure, the economics do make sense for me to continue doing this, of course, but I also know that at the end of the day, the mission of Trapitol is to help elevate this space. And when I hear even in the cocktail reception, people telling me, oh, yeah, we met so and so last year at the summit, and we were able to make a partnership there. That's why we came back this year. One of our partners this year had met a investor last year at the summit and said, yes, that's a room that not only I want to be in, I want to continue supporting this event. I'm grateful to be joined by a good team on that side and also happen to know people who would be very great to be able to be involved one way or another.
- [40:32]
A
Earlier this year, like in January, we put out a white paper in partnership with splice. And that's something that kind of came about after I met Francis from their comms team at the Chapital Summit last year. And then we saw each other this year and we were like, wow, remember when we didn't know each other? So, yeah, I've seen the direct impact myself.
- [40:49]
B
You and I haven't talked directly about that, and I knew that there was, like, the connection there, but, yeah, but she had given me the background there. But, no, that's good to hear.
- [40:57]
A
Yeah.
- [40:57]
B
Yeah. Cause I know that she listens to the pod, too, and is always intrigued and she's, oh, like, who's this person? And we'll give the intel. But no, she is a believer and a fan of yours. Yes.
- [41:06]
A
Oh, nice. Yeah.
- [41:07]
B
Tati, thanks again. This was a ton of fun. It was good to do this recap, too. I hope that the people that attended this, they give this a listen. They feel like this captures their memories and takeaways from the event. If it did or did it, we'd love to hear from you. So you know how to reach either of us to help make that happen. And if you didn't get a chance to attend this year, hopefully this pod, plus some of the photos and videos and conversations that we'll share over the next couple of weeks and months will give you a better sense of what we have planned. But truly, this was a team effort to help make this all happen, and I'm grateful to all of you. So thank you.
- [41:42]
A
Congrats again, Dan, and looking forward to next year.
- [41:46]
B
Next year, people already started asking me, oh, which one's your favorite? First year or last year? The next one. It's like what Tom Brady says with the Super Bowls, right? Which one's your favorite one? The next one.
- [41:55]
A
I love that.
- [41:56]
B
All right, thanks, Tati.
- [41:57]
A
Thanks Dan.
- [42:00]
B
And that is a wrap for our second annual trapital Summit. As always I would like to thank our producers G and Eric for everything that they do on the audio and video side to help make trapital possible. Thanks again to Tati Sirisano for joining me on this one and thank you again to all of our wonderful partners who helped make the trapital Summit possible including the Rain Group, Splice, Warner Music Group, Beat Bread, Live Nation, Urban, linktree, Luminate to Lost and soundcloud. Truly could not have done this without you. Thanks again to all of the attendees, the speakers, the partners, anyone that was helpful on the venue side specifically. Truly grateful. Glad it all worked out and cannot wait for next year and thank you again for listening to this. Hopefully it gave you a taste for what the trapital Summit is all about and maybe we'll see you there next year. Take care. Talk to you next time.