The Day After The Day After Tomorrow ft. Séamus Malekafzali

Summary

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TRASHFUTURE: "The Day After The Day After Tomorrow ft. Séamus Malekafzali"

Released: October 21, 2025
Main Theme:
A satirical but serious discussion of the psychic malaise fostered by late capitalism and the ongoing crisis in Palestine, with deep dives into Starbucks' tech pivot, British political reactions to Israeli football hooliganism, and what "ceasefire" means in modern international affairs.

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1. Starbucks, Tech Hype, and AI Absurdity (00:16–13:12)

Introduction—Starbucks' Pivot to Tech Nonsense

• The episode opens with Matt sharing a story about Starbucks’ attempt to become tech-forward, referencing their failed 2022 NFT/Web3 “Odyssey” scheme and their recent forays into AI.
• Memorable riff: Matt jokes about investing all his podcast earnings into “Starbucks Odyssey bucks.” (01:22)
• The group mocks the marketing language and corporate fads, e.g., Starbucks AI “green dot” that helps baristas make drinks, and the fantasy that customers will soon have AI-predicted, perfectly frictionless coffee experiences.
• Lewis: “This is going to turn me into Dennis Leary. I want a coffee-flavored coffee, goddammit.” (03:26)
• The idea of a coffee-ordering app that “learns” your preferences but is fundamentally just about collecting more data is lampooned.

Satire on Automation, Pronouns & Capitalist Narratives

• Eleanor notes that similar automation is already used by smaller brands like Blank Street, but it's not a game-changer.
• Lewis jokes that baristas now just “stand by the machine and have pronouns,” turning AI-automation into a faux-woke performance (04:43).
• The hosts reflect on how Starbucks positions itself as the “world’s greatest customer service company,” and how this is both nostalgic and absurd.

Notable Quote:

• Matt (on Starbucks AI): “The experience of most people at Starbucks is—this is where I can go to vent all of my Facebook anger at someone who’s not allowed to talk back to me.” (05:26)

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2. British Football, Israel, and the Politics of Hooliganism (13:12–30:11)

Setting the Scene

• Seamus Malekafzali joins to talk about his new podcast "Turbulence" and the ongoing fallout from the Gaza war.
• The hosts move onto the “ceasefire that wasn’t” and the media circus around Israeli football fans.

The Maccabi Tel Aviv Away Fans Scandal

• UK police banned Maccabi Tel Aviv football fans from attending a Europa League match in Birmingham due to prior hooliganism.
• Media and political establishment in the UK rallied behind the idea that banning Israeli away fans is structurally antisemitic—a position lambasted for its hypocrisy and knee-jerk reflexivity.
• Matt: “You have what appear to be the entire British political mainstream coming out in favor... of football hooliganism, because it is politically necessary to do so if it will make Israel seem normal.” (16:18)
• Seamus describes the fan firm’s notorious violence and racist, openly fascist songbook (e.g., lyrics about raping and murdering opponents’ families—a chant detailed at 22:58).
  • This prompts a grim reflection on the political uses of sport and how British politicians launder their reputation by aligning with Israeli positions, no matter how transparently abhorrent.

Tommy Robinson & the Israeli Right

• Tommy Robinson, British far-right figure, is highlighted as a guest of Israeli officials.
• Seamus: “To the Israeli government, [Robinson] is the repository of the most incisive critiques of British society right now.” (17:12)
• Discussion on Robinson’s ‘football hooligan’ persona being largely “stolen valor,” yet effective as a political tool in this moment.
• Eleanor notes how UK governments’ attempts to pander to “pro-Israel” actors appease neither the right nor the liberal Jewish establishment, as Robinson is embraced in Israel while British politics lurches further into reactionary territory.

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3. The Farce of 'Ceasefire' and The Day After Plan (31:22–61:13)

The Ceasefire that Isn’t

• Seamus unpacks what the current “ceasefire” in Gaza really entails (31:59):
  • Hostage exchanges, military redrawings, and an American-led extraterritorial “peace board” (with Trump, Tony Blair, and "business professionals").
  • Plan envisions "apolitical" Palestinian technocrats—effectively a denial of Palestinian self-determination.

Notable Exchange:

• Matt: “It seems like what this is, is it’s a ceasefire at any point where there isn’t shooting. And then when there is shooting, the ceasefire’s off, which to me is the same as just the tempo of an attack.” (34:13)
• Lewis: “Technically, when you think about it, there were microsecond-long ceasefires while all the weapons were cycling.” (34:24)

The Real Estate Bonanza & Blairite Fantasies

• The “day after” is essentially about who gets to build, invest, and profit from rebuilding Gaza:
  • Tony Blair’s “performance-based” reforms to the PA are less about democratic legitimacy, more about producing docility and suppressing Palestinian political agency.
  • A “Gaza Investment Promotion and Economic Development Authority,” bankrolled and run by private business, is floated as the answer (42:52).
  • Plans include tech-bro mega projects, AI Starbucks, and planned cities—while companies cited as partners deny any involvement.
  • The farcical element is underscored: no guarantees Israel won’t just demolish anything built the moment it suits them.

Key Analysis:

• Seamus notes that private investment & tech zones are likely just platforms for extracting value, controlling labor, while real meaningful governance and safety for Palestinians is never even broached.

Western Complicity, Nihilism, and the Post-Trump Order

• The episode draws bleak parallels:
  • UK and US governments’ interests are now “image management,” not coherent policy.
  • Starmer’s Labour and Biden/Trump White Houses move reactively, driven by right-wing outrage cycles and PR stunts.
• Trump’s role as personalist peacemaker emerges: only his direct fits and whims affect Israeli compliance.

Notable Reflection:

• Lewis: “We may not have a government of podcasters, but we have a government that can be moved by podcasters. Just not our kind of podcaster.” (31:13)

Israel as the Vanguard of Fascist 'Normality'

• The ongoing crisis is framed as the shop window for a new global fascism, “the vanguard”; Israel's political culture and rightward lurch are highlighted as central to the international normalization of extreme violence and suppression.
• Seamus and hosts warn that constant pressure and reactionary dissatisfaction remain dangerously effective strategies for their proponents.

Standout Quote:

• Seamus: “We are just ruled by syphilitic morons... I do remember a time when the president could form complete sentences. What a terrible way to live.” (61:49)

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4. Biohacking, CO₂ Inhalers, and the American Tech Death Drive (62:29–end)

Carbogenetics: The Business of Breathplay Death (62:29– end)

• In typical Trashfuture fashion, the episode ends with a gleeful roast of 'Carbogenetics,' a real (or plausible) startup selling “CO₂ inhalers” as a wellness hack.
• Discussion quickly veers from the dangers of the device, via pseudoscientific claims, to its obvious appeal for sexual ‘breathplay’ fetishists.
• Lewis (reading a trip report): “My lungs still ate from the experience, there was a stabbing pain... and my tongue hurt, maybe from biting during a seizure?” (66:32)
• The gang points out the absurdity of a product built on the premise “relax—by simulating suffocation.”
• “Don’t kill yourself during sex; I can’t stress that enough.” — Seamus (71:57)
• Lewis: “If you die in a sex accident, it should be a fun story, not a depressing embarrassing story.” (72:12)

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5. Conclusion, Promotions, and Final Jokes (73:29–end)

• Seamus plugs his new podcast “Turbulence,” launching October 28th.
• Matt closes by riffing: “Shame about what we have to talk about, but always a pleasure to talk to you.”
• The hosts banter about the future: “Have we fixed everything? Is carbon everywhere?”
• The show ends with a plug for Trashfuture’s Patreon.

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Episode At-A-Glance

Timestamps for Key Segments:

• Starbucks/AI/Corporate Tech Silliness: 00:16–13:12
• Maccabi Tel Aviv, Football & Politics: 13:12–30:11
• Gaza Ceasefire & 'The Day After' Plan: 31:22–61:13
• Carbogenetics/CO₂ Inhalers: 62:29–72:22
• Conclusion & Plugs: 73:29–end

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Summary Takeaways:

• Cultural Satire: The hosts' humor brings out the surreal contradictions of late capitalism—how mega-corporations and governments alike chase AI, image, and PR, while ignoring material reality and suffering.
• Political Critique: In the context of the Gaza war, they capture the cynical performance of Western governments and the brutally real policies being floated for Palestine: performative “day after” schemes, designed not for self-determination but for investment, security, and control.
• Dystopian Irony: From Starbucks’s AI baristas to Gaza as a Blairite development zone and tech start-ups offering death as a luxury experience, the show’s tone is one of exhausted, almost gleeful nihilism.
• Memorable Line:
  “We are just ruled by syphilitic morons... What a terrible way to live.” (61:49, Seamus)

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For listeners seeking smart, irreverent, and often cutting take-downs of the absurdities of politics, capitalism, and tech, this episode delivers—and offers much to think (and laugh grimly) about.

Transcript

[Matt]

So, okay. You ever just read something that fully stun locks you? Occasionally.

[Lewis]

More and more these days I would say yeah, all the time.

[Matt]

So you know me, right? You know, I like to read the transcripts of earnings calls and I'd like to read things that CEOs say about certain companies. And I never thought it would happen to me, but. Starbucks is officially launching Starbucks Odyssey, which is launching later this year. The coffee chain's first foray into building with Web3 technology and NFTs, allowing its customers to both purchase and earn digital assets to unlock exclusive experiences and rewards.

[Lewis]

Yes.

[Eleanor]

Okay, I'm sorry, what year is this?

[Lewis]

Oh, shit.

[Matt]

I'm sorry. That was from 2022. Let me get the right document up. So Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol emphasized that while Starbucks is currently focused on learning and experimen within the AI space. Sorry, I got it wrong.

[Lewis]

Did things not work out for Starbucks Odyssey? Would you say that Starbucks Odyssey's journey was in some way delayed and knocked off course a number of times and therefore was an extremely frustrating experience for Starbucks?

[Matt]

Well, let me. Hold on. I yolo'd every penny I've ever earned from the podcast into Starbucks Odyssey bucks. They could have just called it Starbucks.

[Lewis]

A bunch of guys are trying lined up trying to fuck Starbucks's wife now.

[Matt]

Yeah, there's this really crazy new ordering system where your drink is free, but you have to like shoot an arrow. Something like this. No, let me just check. I put it all into Odyssey bucks. Okay, let's see.

[Lewis]

Yeah. How many NFTs did you get from those?

[Matt]

Let's just. Let me just quickly calculate benefit net of tax losses. I am in thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars worth of debt.

[Lewis]

It's okay. It's okay. You can dig yourself back up again with this AI thing.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, well, they trying to rebrand coffee as slurp Juice.

[Matt]

That could have worked. They could have done so many good things in 20.

[Lewis]

Is slurp juice a soup?

[Seamus Malik]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So remember 2022? I sure do. Brian Niccol, the new CEO, former CEO of Taco Bell. They kicked out the McKinsey consultant that lost them $20 billion. And then they hired the Taco Bell guy. He looks like he's gotten Chad surgery.

[Lewis]

Guy who only knows how to do Taco Bell motivation. So it's like Starbucks is a brand that believes in living mass or at least living venti.

[Matt]

So thank you. The technology is already helping the company execute its goal of becoming the world's greatest customer service company again. The strategy is called Back to Starbucks.

[Lewis]

Doing back to basics for a business model of selling you a cup full of sugary milk.

[Matt]

Yeah, cool. Well, hang on. We gotta put that in the computer, right? We gotta computer that.

[Lewis]

And that interfaces with the monstrous reality of the American consumer. Like some shambling abomination walks into your Starbucks and goes, yeah, I want the Charlie Kirk Memorial Slurp Juice. And you have to translate that into something that they can put into one of the holes in their face.

[Matt]

It's not just respect that you ordered the Charlie Kirk Memorial Slurp Coffee. It's downright, it's downright patriotic. So if a partner encounters a problem with equipment or needs guidance on quote, how to build a drink, then the Starbucks green dot AI system quickly delivers the right answer or solution.

[Lewis]

This is going to turn me into Dennis Leary. I want a coffee flavored coffee. God damn it. None of this, none of this anti woke shit. Because now you could do a pretty good type 5 on this of how now you have to do a bunch of anti woke virtue signaling and it's as annoying to you as the woke stuff was back in the day. And it's like you have to click through like five minutes of like, you want a Charlie Kirk coffee? No, just a normal coffee. Donald Trump. No, just a normal coffee. Like normal coffee.

[Matt]

Do you want the, do you want the Donald Trump coffee? And it gets served in a like fighter jet and it gets deployed out the back of it. Like. Despite the advancements in artificial intelligence, Nicol was quick to quash any notions of a fully robotic staff saying, we're not quite there yet.

[Lewis]

Yeah, they haven't taught a computer to have they them pronouns yet. So no danger.

[Matt]

Or more specifically, they haven't taught a computer to have they them pronouns in one of three locations in like Peoria.

[Eleanor]

Also like they can't. It's very sick because like they talk about the way that it's framed as like, oh, like we're going to. You're really far away from having like fully automated like coffee processing stuff, but like Blank Street. That's Blank Street's whole thing, isn't it? That like their baristas don't actually make the coffee. They have like machines and systems that basically do. And the baristas whole job is just to sort of manage those systems, stand.

[Lewis]

By the machine and have pronouns. Perfect. Ideal job, but exactly mine as well.

[Eleanor]

You could melt down the blank street coffee computer by just like giving them like a very strange custom order and then referring to them by the wrong pronouns or saying something like, I would like to be you know, I'd like to coffee to be personalized as, like, Charlie. Like, Charlie Turk, actually.

[Matt]

Never give it to me.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, I was trying to make a bit about the mechanical turk, but I feel like that got sort of got lost.

[Matt]

You know, if you're at home, make your own.

[Eleanor]

That's right. But, yeah, this isn't, like, new technology. And so he's also, like, massively behind on this thing that, like, no one else in the industry is really. No one in the industry is really doing this except for Blank Street. And, like, there's not really a discernible advantage to it.

[Matt]

Well, so what they say is that they're using this. They're putting AI in all the Starbucks to get more partners back into the stores and give people a great experience rooted in real craft. And the experience of most people at Starbucks is this is where I can go to, like, vent all of my Facebook anger at someone who's not allowed to talk back to me.

[Eleanor]

Well, it depends on where you are, because there's also, like, a lot of Starbucks, at least like, in the UK and Europe, is just like, it's either the only coffee place that's available or.

[Matt]

It'S in a roadside services.

[Eleanor]

Right. Or it's in a roadside services. Or it's just like. I don't know. I had, like, a fairly big Starbucks area, like, where I used to live, and it was like, again, like, that's why I say it was, like, the only coffee place. And so its main purpose was to sort of, like, give builders, like, very, very sugary coffees. And I always found that very funny. Like, the idea of. We've talked about this before, where it's like old millennials or like, you know, woke lefties. Like, you know, all they want are like, you know, Frappuccino like these.

But it's like, no, like, the exact opposite is tr. The second point is also just like that. Starbucks was also the place where, whenever I used to go to it, it was mostly occupied by unhappy couples or school kids who had nowhere else to go.

[Matt]

Well, what Nicol envisions is a future where friction is entirely removed from the Starbucks experience. So, again, thank God. Yeah. That whole thing going in and having to deal with the pronouns and the fact that they won't write Charlie Kirk on my cup. It was like walking through sandpaper. It was so frictive. So potentially integrating AI systems so seamlessly that customers might not even need to order at all. You just like a Minority Report.

[Seamus Malik]

But for coffee, is this necessary?

[Lewis]

I sort of, like, walk into the Cerebro Starbucks thing and it shows me the locations of everyone on earth who wants a Charlie Kirk memorial slab.

[Matt]

Juice says he suggested the user could simply talk into their phone saying, hey, I need to get Starbucks and I'll be there in 10 minutes. And a drink would be ready upon their arrival.

[Lewis]

Just something I. Yeah, just like talking into your phone. Like I actually identify as some kind of hog and would like, you know, some liquid poured into my trough. Doesn't really matter what kind, you know.

[Matt]

Yeah, better have say, hey, extra cadmium. I'm trying to get big. And the idea, right, is that you have this app and then the app records everything about you. Then they can predict your coffee order. So anyway, and combine that with like the fact that right now everyone actually in the industry in AI and talking about like this really I think quite important. Andrej Karpath, the interview. But he was just like, yeah, the cutting edge of LLM research is right now is that this is now as good as it gets. It's not getting better. Agents are never going to get better. The fact that it has no memories in its context window always closes perfectly and then opens completely empty next time you use it means like, it's not getting better than this. And now Star. And the fact that that's happening at the same time as Starbucks is like, fuck it, we're an AI company now. I mean, look, I never like to say this is the moment the bubble pops because inevitably it's never when you expect. But my God, sometimes you read something and you just have to get up and around for a little while.

[Eleanor]

What happens if like, my sex robot wants like a Frappuccino? Like, how would the Starbucks AI like, sort of like, what if I want.

[Lewis]

To express my admiration for ever virginal AI movie star Tilly fucking Norwood or whatever her name is, buying her a Charlie Kirk coffee.

[Matt]

Hussein. You're describing the plot of the movie Her. You're describing the ending of the movie her, which is they all get together.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, they all get together at the Starbucks.

[Matt]

Well, you know what I remember they're going to finally make it a place to hang out again as opposed to a place for either builders to get like 30 times their daily allowance of sugar, as is in UK and Europe, or for people to like, have one side of an argument they've been having in their head for 14 years with a bewildered teenager. Can't wait. Thank you. Brian Nicholl.

[Seamus Malik]

Remember Village the. The global village coffee house aesthetic? I wonder. That was.

[Matt]

Oh, the music, the eras.

[Seamus Malik]

Like, I Don't know. I remember it being very warm, very simple. Dare I say it's nostalgic, but it seems better than what it is right now.

[Lewis]

Return with a V. This is what they took from you. This is unironically what they took from you.

[Seamus Malik]

Yeah, Art.

[Eleanor]

Once the AI thing bursts and when we go back to having normal coffee coffee shops, I want one where it's just some Greek guy that's rude to you and it only sells you one and you can ask for fucking Mega Frappuccino and all he does is just give you the one coffee, coffee flavored coffee with some cigarette ashes sprinkled on.

[Lewis]

There in the sort of Woke Accords, the thing that will end the sort of strife on the left, unify us against the right. The compromise is all coffee shops are like that. But the Greek guys do have to say their pronouns.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, yeah, that's the deal. They can be rude to you as much as you want, but they do have to respect your pronouns.

[Lewis]

I'm on the negotiating team for the woke Accords. We're all flying out for it.

[Matt]

Yeah, well, a bunch of you are flying out for. And a bunch of others are being like, oh, they're flying. I see. Not very green because weirdly, I'm actually.

[Lewis]

On the anti woke delegation.

[Matt]

You wouldn't have necessarily guessed, but no, it's. It's you and Dennis Leary. You've been united.

We're the coffee flavored coffee party. It's you, it's Dennis Leary and it's Lewis Black.

Anyway, hi everyone. That's been a 13 minute cold open about Starbucks. Hold on. Sorry, there's someone at the door. I'll be back in just a moment.

Oh, sorry, it's the entire Maccabee Tel Aviv away fan firm group.

[Lewis]

Oh, oh, we have to let all of them in because of otherwise we would be doing anti Semitism.

[Matt]

Yeah, they've asked to come in and I guess they're like reverse vampires where if they ask to come in that they have to let them in, essentially.

[Lewis]

Well, I mean, I assume they just want to like peacefully enjoy a football game and not like smash anything up.

[Seamus Malik]

Right?

[Matt]

Yeah, I think they've said they're here on a tour of independent podcast studios in the United Kingdom and they're just going to like, look at how we've hooked up the mics to the Dante array.

[Lewis]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think that's going to be. Oh no. Oh no, no, it's a Molotov cocktail. Okay, nevermind. Oh, there he's got A flare in his ass. Okay, we're have to pause recording for a second.

[Lewis]

Well, I mean, the thing is. The thing is that guy, the flare in that guy's ass has a right to exist.

[Matt]

That guy has a right to put a flare in his ass to defend himself. That flare's been in there for 5,000 years. Okay.

[Seamus Malik]

Ow.

[Matt]

No, just peel back the. Peel the curtain. Pull back the curtain. Peel back this very greasy curtain that we.

[Eleanor]

Ye.

[Lewis]

The studio that we've been in, that we have never cleaned. Please peel back this curtain, scrape up a chair and join us.

[Matt]

Hey, why don't you wipe down a surface and take a seat? No, this is. This is. That was just a skit. The Maccabee Tel Aviv supporters firm is not here. They're currently. What, like, all in jail in Jerusalem or something? Or in Tel Aviv. And instead, this is tf, the podcast that you're listening to.

[Eleanor]

And we're very different from the TF firm.

Who are a lot more violent than us, but not as violent as.

[Matt]

Maccabee television notorious hooligans, the TF Podcast Firm. Okay, short idea, we're just gonna. We're gonna pop it.

[Lewis]

But just because we're kind of by reputation, one of the more left wing podcasts in London doesn't mean that our fans are necessarily.

[Matt]

And really, the hooliganism is kind of independent of the. It's. It's not even really almost so much about the podcast actually. Like, it's a bit like the Chelsea headhunters. Like, they started getting into, like, illegal activities via the organization of the. You know what, I'm just gonna introduce our guest. It's Seamus Malik of Zelda. He's back.

Seamus, you're hosting. You're not just here with a newsletter anymore. You're hosting a podcast now.

[Seamus Malik]

Yes. I gave in to the want of every male over the age of, I think like 23, 24. Yes. Me, Dylan Sava, and our producer, M. Suniza, we are now producing a podcast called Turbulence, which is about the destruction of the liberal order since October 7th. And we're very, dare I say it, we like it so far. We've been recording some episodes to bank, which we're gonna premiere on October 28th. And I think it's gonna be pretty good.

[Lewis]

I really hope that you get over the sort of thing that a lot of podcasts stumble with, which is how to open the podcast without doing a 20 to 30 minute cold open.

[Eleanor]

Yeah. The second one is how you tolerate your firm. So the Turbulence Firm might be very different to Turbulence for hope.

[Matt]

Have you met your official supporters club yet? Do they seem nice or did they bring brass knuckles to meeting?

[Seamus Malik]

I firmly believe in my own experience of meeting people who follow my work, they are usually more intelligent, much more handsome or beautiful than I am. And I think we're going to keep that up with this podcast. I think we want that kind of audience. Yeah.

[Matt]

So what we're going to do is we're going to talk a little bit about. And in fact, you know what, when I say we're going to talk a little bit about sort of the. We'll start with again the. Some of the Western world ramifications of the, you know, ongoing atrocities being, you know, committed in. In Palestine.

[Lewis]

The cease fire that wasn't, etc.

[Matt]

Yeah. The ceasefire in name only. And then we're going to talk about the region itself. I kind of resent a little bit the fact of being unable to ignore a football argument because it was basically made the all channels cause celeb of the entire United Kingdom in a way I think not seen since the fucking Suez crisis over the last five years.

[Lewis]

It's another one of the kind of curses that befall Starmer is that football is one of the things he genuinely cares about. It's just that due to both his politics and how personally weird he is, he can't ever like say anything about it without it being either the most authoritarian thing you've ever heard or just the kind of personally strangest. And this one's kind of in both camps.

[Matt]

Yeah. So to catch you up on if you're, if you're in America, maybe you haven't been following this. Israel's second most racist football club or, sorry, Israel's second most racist football firm. Maccabee Tel Aviv.

[Lewis]

You'll never sing that.

[Matt]

Maccabee Tel Aviv. They are supposed to play a match against Aston Villa as part of the Europa League, like Europe's second rate league. This was supposed to happen and then the West Midlands police issued an order saying, hey, we're not going to allow the away fans to come to the game.

[Lewis]

Yeah. Which they had done for not even West Midlands police specifically, but which police in the UK do fairly regularly, couple of times a year for all sorts of overseas fans. They did this for Legio Warsaw last year, I think. Think so.

[Eleanor]

Not.

[Lewis]

Not unique, not new.

[Matt]

Yeah. This is off the back of events that of last year in Amsterdam where this same fan firm basically appears to have started a riot by just being so like drunk and hooligan ish. And you know, it's a few things about this are sort of darkly amusing. Number one is that when this ban was announced by the police. These bans come from a history of moral panics around football hooliganism that were replete in the UK in the 1980s, the 1990s. And now you have what appear to be the entire British political mainstream coming out in favor in principle of football hooliganism, because it is been made politically necessary to do so by the fact that this is something that will anything to make Israel seem normal.

[Lewis]

God, has anyone ever won British politics as much as Tommy Robinson has?

[Matt]

I swear to God, no.

[Seamus Malik]

I mean he, I mean Tommy is literally right now he's a guest of the Israeli Minister of Diaspora affairs and I guess I follow the Minister's telegram channel. He's interviewing him, talking about like he's to the Israeli government. This man is the repository of all of the most incisive critiques of British society right now. Like he's skyrocketed in terms of relevance in ways that really are quite frightening.

[Matt]

Yeah. And you know what else, you know, where Tommy Robinson's background is, you know, why he is who he is, other than probably tapped up by the intelligence circumstances, why he is who he is and does what he does is football hooliganism. He is a leading football hooligan. That's where his background is.

[Eleanor]

Actually. I read somewhere that he actually wasn't really that kind of notorious a hooligan and there were actual hooligans that were annoyed with him.

[Matt]

He was a fake fan.

[Lewis]

He brands himself that way. But stealing valor is really, really funny basically.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, they were like, yeah, he actually wasn't really. He was a bit of a pussy and he's just kind of riding the wave and he's a charismatic guy, but they were just like, yeah, he didn't really actually do any proper violence. I read that like ago and I thought it was so funny. And obviously like, thinking about the context now, I'm just like, imagine like being a fucking guy who's like, you've dedicated yourself to football hooliganism and like that's your thing. And like, you know, you sort of really, you know, you sort of like lost teeth as a result of it. And like, you see this fucking guy.

[Matt]

Someone called like Mickey Deterror or something.

[Eleanor]

And you just see this fucking guy who like, is like some 5 foot 6 weirdo who like, you know, you just sort of saw as like short and scrawny and like he's getting all the things that like, that you want or that you deserve. And I think that's just so funny. But yeah, I think the point about. We spoke about this a little bit with Eleanor fairly recently, but it is sort of interesting to see that the efforts to kind of make Israel be or appear to be normal, like a gargantuan task, considering that they are still killing people and they are still sort of putting out tons and tons of content. And also I saw this video of the other, I think this morning, morning of like an exercise class where like the. The women who were sort of doing like Pilates or something were doing it to like that the song, like may your village burn or so I don't know what the name is, but, like, that's the sort of like, line and that's sort of like presented as like the kind of unofficial anthem of Israel right now, which I got to say, very, very normal. Yeah. But like, the point just being that, like, as the Israeli state has become more and more unhinged, which is, you know, very, very, you know, that's just. Just to sort of note how extreme like they started off with and how they've become as the government kind of like tries to present Israel, like, as this, like, very normal place that's very like deeply connected to like British Jews, especially British liberal Jews. Meanwhile, in Israel, like, you know, pretty much every political party embraced Tommy Robinson coming in, Tommy Robinson then sort of like speaking to Israeli ministers, being like, yeah, like, you know, you know, the British government has failed you, Liberal Jews have failed you. But I think like, he called the deputy, what's it called, the Board of Deputies. They were like, yeah, they've also betrayed you, you know, and not real Jews. And I was just sort of thinking to myself, like, yeah, you've done all this type you've done as a Labour government, you've done all this stuff to sort of capitulate to these groups that very, very transparently they were being cynical, but they were also very much.

Anyone with a brain could sort of see what they were doing. You've capitulated and bent backwards to sort of appease these people. You've kind of introduced draconian measures on protesting both on the street and online in order to sort of abide by the definition of anti Semitism. You've so much to basically say that, like, you know, you are on the side of like, Israel and that still isn't enough. And you and this five foot six guy who, like, has stolen valor for being a football hooligan is undermining all of that and There is nothing you can do.

[Matt]

Well, what they can do is what they have been doing, which is preemptively agreeing with him, which is every organ of the British state. And British. There was a fucking live blog about like the Maccabee Tel Aviv banning scandal.

[Eleanor]

Yeah. And. And I saw like some new stuff, whereas I were doing like these kind of like two 25 minute segments and like spiked like to like one of a one and a half hour long podcasts all about this. And it was just like, I was really kind of like, I don't think this is as much of an issue as like, as like you guys are presenting. But nevertheless it is also sort of endemic of like how kind of like the media, both traditional and new media, like, see themselves in terms of like being able to shift the debate and like sort of shape policy as a result. And like this labor government, I feel like at every turn have sort of like really jumped the gun in terms of like, they see what's happening in this sort of like media landscape and they try to sort of react to it in all order to kind of minimize the perceived damage.

[Matt]

Was this making you happy? Is this a nut? I'll drink more from the puddle.

[Eleanor]

And they see that this government is really, really responsive to all the fucking whining that we do on the show. And you can exaggerate as much as you want and they will sort of appease you in part because they're so desperate to increase their approval numbers that they are willing to really sort of jump the gun, particularly when it comes to draconian measures in order to prove that they're sort of cracking down on crime and stuff like that. But it's like the conclusion has always been like, it's never enough. It is never, ever, never enough.

[Matt]

But the. You mentioned, right, that the people that like that Tommy Robinson is turning around and telling all these groups the entire British state has failed. It's entirely compromised. There's a whole of government effort to agree with that, to say, yes, the British state has failed. The West Midlands police have failed. They're entirely compromised. The MP is compromised. Britain is an unsafe place because we're all just going to take it as read that the reason that these fans are being banned is because we won't, we can't keep them safe from all the political Islam in Birmingham. And then the punchline to this, of course, they get into a football riot the day after Keir Starmer says, I will commit to use the full force of the British state to allow these like couple hundred Guys to come in and turn over cars in Birmingham, basically.

[Seamus Malik]

I mean, these people are controversial within Israeli football. The Tel Aviv Derby got canceled. The Tel Aviv police clearly thought it found it expedient to close the event because of the threat of these people. I mean, something that I saw today really, really illustrates what all these British politicians are attempting to let into the country, into Birmingham, a city that is filled to the brim with like, frankly, with Muslims, like, what do you think these people are going to do to these people? It's on the official website. It's one of their chants. It's called the rape song and here's some of it. Here you sing songs about the Holocaust and also think it's funny to deny the state. You are Arab whores. We are ashamed of you. At the end of the day, we will fuck you. We will fuck you. And then we, we will drink your blood in the town square. We will hang every communist. We'll take your girls who love to go wild when we rape them. We'll shout, Today is the day of death. Today is the day of death. This is on their website?

[Lewis]

Yeah, it's a chant that they do against Hapuel, who are like nominally the left wing, like Israeli, because they have historical ties to the communist Zionist or socialist Zionist associations. And so they're like, yeah, this is, this is treason to us. And as I said, not even the most right wing Israeli football club by reputation, because that's Bayttar. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, if Bayt Har comes, are they going to get what, like the Queen's guards escorting them to like, like whatever stadium they're supposed to play at? This is astonishing.

[Lewis]

Well, no, you're just, you're just obliged to like let these guys riot and let these guys like attack you because otherwise you are participating in like a deep structural anti Semitism. That.

Birmingham a no go zone. And if you suggest that any of this is like not even laundering a fascist talking point, just like outwardly embracing it, that too is sort of like prejudiced of you, you know?

[Seamus Malik]

Jesus Christ. Are they going to like, what was the plan that they're going to come in and everybody's going to be like hunky dory with each other? No, it's going to be a fucking disaster.

[Matt]

I think the plan, of course, is to just allow there to be a disaster. Because one of the things all football hooligans have in common, regardless of where they're from, is they want to fight, they want to cause trouble. And then the only thing is, because the number One mission of the UK government, because I think this is one of the few things that. And we'll sort of use this to kind of flip into sort of more of the international dimension here. But the number one mission of the UK government right now is launder is trying to maintain its place as an important player in Western foreign policy. And the only way it can do that is by having all of its stances be very similar to the only actual important player in Western foreign policy, you know, United States, right? And so it is just like, you know, Starmer walks up, walks up to Trump and gets sort of like, you know, dangled in front of the podium and then shoved back into line. You know, it's the same thing. And like, as I talk about this, not even as a coherent political project, I talk about it as a reflex, right? There is not a coherent political project necessarily at the top of Starmerism so much as there is a sense of, here's what the people we don't like would want. And we have to rep. We have to defend the country. We have to defend the imaginary people who we think are proper British people, people against the people who we know that are wrong. And so they're unable to look into the content of anything. It's purely about image. I mean, I was thinking about this the other day, right? It said, you know, China is a government of engineers. America has historically been a government of lawyers. Now it seems to be a government largely of podcasters. And I think the UK is in a long time has been a government of PR people and lobbyists. And so it is constant reactive image management. In this case, the image they want to project is we are taking political Islam seriously, number one. And we just. That's a loose thing that we can define however we want. It can encompass whatever we want. And we are going to take anti Semitism seriously, which we are going to, when it's convenient, largely conflate with Israel. And that means that we're going to be credible. We're going, but we're also going to burn. In order to pursue this PR strategy, we are going to look directly into and burn down any institution that we think it might look good to attack. I mean, this is hardly the first time, as I remember, we talked about this one of the last times there was a number of protests in central London. Actually, I believe these were also Palestine solidarity protests, where the government tried to make itself seem more harsh and serious by directly interfering in Met Police operational policing decisions and like, accusing them of double st of like, being Anti Semites, like, arresting people who are holding stars of David. And what I recall is the Metropolitan Police were like, you can't say that to us. You have to fuck off of me immediately. Do not talk to me. And it seems to be the same thing they're doing with the west, with the West Midlands. Police is being like, oh, all of that stuff that we brought in, in the moral panic against hooliganism in the 1980s and 90s, we're actually. We're done with that stuff now because some hooligans are right. In fact, hooligans appear to be largely the foot soldiers of the. Of the transformation of the British state that we are gladly ushering in.

[Lewis]

I'm sure that they'll sort of respond to this, you know, submission very well. Right, then they're definitely not going to kind of still kick the sh out of you anyway.

[Seamus Malik]

Right.

[Lewis]

Because obviously, if there's one thing we know about football hooligans is that they famously respect weakness.

Got a strong theology of suffering, you know.

[Matt]

Also, international sporting bans were a huge part of the campaign against South Africa in. Or South African apartheid. Like, banning them from international rugby actually was quite meaningful. But the thing is, I don't think Israeli society actually has a national love of football like South Africa has about rugby. I think it's actually quite empty of passions, I don't think, other than, like, I don't know, bad Molly and trance music.

[Seamus Malik]

Right.

[Lewis]

You take out your passions by, like, burning down villages in the west bank, right? Like, that's the kind of. That's the one libidinal part of Israeli society, as far as I can tell.

[Seamus Malik]

I mean. I mean, there's a football culture. I mean, they have a lot of football clubs, but in terms of that actually translating into quality, I mean, we saw with the national football team when they played against Italy and Norway in the qualifiers, like, it's not.

[Matt]

It's not really going anywhere.

[Seamus Malik]

As much as I can tell, they won. I rem. Like back in the 60s when Israel played in the. In the AFC, when it still played in the AFC, they won the Asian cup, but that was only because there were like, five countries playing against them. Like, they're really not good at it, sorry to say.

[Matt]

Yeah, but I mean, what's weird to see is the entire British government putting everything going all in on Israel's second most racist football firm to make their point for them, and then eating shit, obviously, on the right river. You could probably. You could easily predict that. But it also contributes to this sense that nothing is true and the truth doesn't matter. And there is more and more of the world that just lives under the rule of power. It just happens that the people who are exerting power here don't understand it and are quite stupid. Yeah.

[Lewis]

And also like the stuff that moves the government to action now can be whatever kind of crank right wing concern. I don't know if you saw this, but the East London mosque was doing like a park run or something.

[Matt]

Oh, God. Nothing makes British conservatives crazy like Parkrun.

[Lewis]

Yeah, but it was so ostensibly, as the sort of press had it, they banned women right from this. And this has led to of course, your usual howls of right wing outrage, but also has therefore moved one of these kind of captured institutions, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, to investigate. And then the women's leader of East London mosque was like, yeah, two women wanted to do it. So the whole thing is sort of like wildly disproportionate at the absolute minimum. But it doesn't matter because we may not have a sort of government of podcasters, but we have a government that can be moved by podcasters. Just not our kind of podcaster.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, which is arguably worse because like listening to fucking podcasts. Oh my God. No offense to anyone listening to this show. It's really.

[Lewis]

It's more of a. It's like. It's like government as sort of having its sort of concerns and actions dictated by worse than podcasters. Bloggers.

[Eleanor]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes, but I want to move on to talk about, like about the region itself. Right. Because there is a ceasefire. But it is one of these ceasefires that I think is entirely fictional, as the Israeli army has continued killing at least dozens of Palestinians a day, civilians and combatants alike. But there is this thing that is called a ceasefire, it seems that could have been brokered by Trump. That is supposed to be part of this long awaited day after plan that it became very clear that nobody had from October 8th onward. So, Seamus, can you just tell us a little bit about what is this ceasefire that isn't.

[Seamus Malik]

I mean, ostensibly this ceasefire is supposed to. I mean, it did achieve the exchange of all the remaining living hostages in Gaza for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners that were still in Israeli prisons. I think something like 98% of Palestinians serving life sentences were released in this deal. I mean, it was significant, even if it did not achieve the release of major leaders like Barghouti and Sadat. After that, Israel moved behind what are called the Yellow line, which represents a little over 50% of Gaza's territory. Mostly in rural areas, outside of urban areas. In the second phase, which is being. It's supposed to. Sorry, I should say it should be negotiated at some point in the near future. Israel is supposed to move behind another line so that an international force of peacekeepers can come in, which will then disarm Hamas and other Palestinian factions. And then there will be, under the Trump plan, a transitional government of Palestinian technocrats who are apolitical but are in fact governed by an extraterritorial board of peace which is chaired by Donald Trump himself and Tony Blair is supposed to be involved with alongside a number of other American businessmen whose names escape me. I think this one Jewish person is supposed to be on that board as well, a rabbi. In terms of the actual sustainability of that ceasefire, in regards to your question, what happened yesterday, before this recording was. What apparently happened was a bulldozer in Rafah ran over an unexploded ordinance. It's unclear if it was an IED that had been planted there a while ago or if it was an Israeli bomb. It's not clear. Bulldozer ran that over, killed a number of Israeli personnel. Then the IDF claimed that, no, it was Hamas fighters who had come out of tunnels and they had launched this incred assault within territory that no Palestinians were in. And then that justified them breaking the ceasefire for temporarily in order to strike Gaza more than 100 times before then, saying, actually, we're going back to ceasefire now, so, you know, no takebacks.

[Matt]

It seems like what this is, is it's a ceasefire at any point where there isn't shooting, and then when there is shooting, the ceasefire is off, which to me is the same as just the tempo of an attack.

[Lewis]

Technically, when you think about it, there were microsecond long ceasefires while all the weapons were cycling. So when you think about it, it's been sort of stop, start from the beginning.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

What it is, is it's a ceasefire that one side is empowered to violate at will and can also put the other on the hook for claimed violations. Whether that's Hamas sort of attacking sort of like armed gangs, whether it's Hamas executing collaborators, whatever it is that can all get folded into this is sufficient reason for the IDF to start bombing again.

[Matt]

And so this appears to be like, I don't understand what the political usefulness of the ceasefire is, except for just the general acceptance that this has to slow down.

[Lewis]

I mean, Donald, Donald Trump. Peace prized. Next time around, maybe. I mean, he was pissed he didn't get it this time. Really. It strikes me that the kind of. Because this is not going to be a novel observation, that Donald Trump is chiefly kind of a reactive organism. Right. But he got. He lost his temper with Netanyahu. Right. And we were saying, we've been saying for two years at this point that this is a war that could have been ended by any American president with a phone call. Having run out of patience with Netanyahu, and ultimately Trump is now kind of testing the limits of that, which is he got pissed off one time, made one phone call, made Netanyahu apologize to Carter, and now we get Netanyahu, seeing how much he can kind of finesse Trump on it.

[Matt]

Yeah. And to what extent is that it. Was Trump able to just decide, okay, I'm annoyed at you personally. This is done instantaneously.

[Seamus Malik]

Seems like, I mean, after the ceasefire was, quote, unquote, broken by Hamas, I mean, Israel announced that it would restrict all humanitarian aid. Rafah crossing would not be opened indefinitely. And then suddenly, maybe hours after that had been announced, Trump and the government tell Netanyahu, actually, you have to keep to this. And so the Rafah crossing is going to be open this week, at least for now. And aid was, you know, the flow of aid was reopened. And then there was. I can't remember who specifically said this. It might have been, v. Said that the American government is making decisions in Gaza. Now, this was something that was entirely within the purview of Joe Biden. Like, we knew this, but it's never been said so openly and unabashedly like, no, the American government is the primary weapon supplier to Israel. The only way this war can continue is with American support. And thus they put their thumbs on that scale and demand, actually, hey, you can't embarrass the president like this. Immediately tearing up the sink, he went, look, this man went to Sharm El Sheikh. He hung out with the president of FIFA and here, Starmer, and embarrassed all these people. To sign a peace deal, you have to. Like, when the ceasefire was initially broken in March, the one that was signed in January, it took two months for Trump to forget that he actually cared about this peace deal, that he touted it as a victory. You can't. Like, Israel is so impatient to get back to war that it cannot let things stand. Like, remember Iran, the war with Iran, when that suddenly ended in the ceasefire, and then suddenly, I mean, literally minutes after the ceasefire came into effect, Israel started sounding sirens and claimed that there was an Iranian missile coming towards them. They needed to go bomb. Like, minutes afterward. They did not want to Submit to it. And then Trump had to tell them to turn the jets back around.

[Matt]

I mean, Ben Vere is right now going on Channel 14 and being like, yeah, okay, now that we have the hostages back, let's go finish the job. I mean, again, this, he's, he's been remarkably consistent in what he's been saying. Right. There's this tendency is not going certainly now, now not going away. And in signing this ceasefire, it seems like almost what's happening is Netanyahu alienating. You know, the, the right wing elements of his governing coalition might actually end up being forced to choose between remaining in power and breaking the ceasefire. Do you think that's likely?

[Seamus Malik]

Here's the thing about Ben GVIR and Smotrich is that, I mean, they place pressure on Netanyahu to get back into the. Not that he needs much pradding, admittedly, but they are like the counterweights there to some elements of American pressure. But they also know where their butter is. Actually, I don't know how that metaphor ends, which side of the bread their butter is. What the fuck? What is it?

[Matt]

Look, there's butter, there's bread. It's been put together in such a.

[Lewis]

Way if you put Benkvir on a slice of toast, it always lands Benkvir side down.

[Seamus Malik]

Yeah, anyway, anyway, anyway, I mean, the thing is that the polls that are coming out of the next election, I mean, there are talks about doing an early election, not next year. I mean, Ben GVIR gains, but Smotwick, his party, religious Zionists, they get blown out. Netanyahu is not really doing well, not doing hot. They really don't. I mean, Ben GVIR might try to blow things up because he is the most, the craziest out of all of them, but he alone cannot break up the coalition. It would require other parties. It would require Netanyahu. Yahoo, too. I mean, there's also these pressure points with trying to draft the ultra orthodox into the military, more of them Yeshua students. I mean, that could also break it up. They really don't. It's kind of, it's delicate. They can't just blow it up. And then the next election comes around once the coalition falls apart, and then they get blown out and then this is all for naught. They recognize that if they maybe, I think Smoltook especially, he's a little bit smarter than Ben gvir. If they are a little bit more patient, if they outwardly talk about how frustrated they are, then they can get the, their war, they can get the Gaza real estate. Bonanza that's what that smokers was talking about. They can buy their time, I think.

[Matt]

Well, if you want to talk about the real estate bonanza, I mean, it seems like the. We're talking. We mentioned the Day After Plan. It seems a huge amount of the Day After Plan is something of a real estate trade show. I mean, if you read some of the documents around the Gita, the sort of the Authority that will be. That will hold, that will hold power in Gaza until it's transferred to a quote, unquote, reformed pa because of course, yeah, this is. The organization needs reform, reform PA that.

[Seamus Malik]

I should, I should be clear. Like, they're not demanding like economic reforms or IMF loans or even that Mahmoud Abbas solely that he should submit to another election, the current president, which has been in power since 05. They're demanding what Netanyahu calls an end to incitement, effectively the apolitization, politicization of the Palestinian Authority to where it will never criticize Israel in any aspect of society, what whatsoever. It becomes entirely subservient to Israeli society and the Israeli political directives, which is functionally impossible unless you are, as I imagine they hope is going to happen, that the Palestinian population is expelled largely from Gaza and the west bank, where it can become. I mean, Smochulik himself talked about that if the Gaza's Palestinian population is narrowed to 100,000, 200,000, then settlement can be expanded without much opposition. That is the model that they want to follow in Gaza and in the west bank. Make it the minimum number of Palestinians who can be easily controlled and have all of their desires entirely absent from the political discussion.

[Matt]

The way I've been seeing this as, just as I've been sort of putting together the notes on this, as we begin thinking about the day after, it seems seriously, for the first time in years, is that this is the direct, exact opposite of what reconstruction in the American south was supposed to have been been, right? This is reconstruction if the American south won, basically. So this is the Gita itself. They say the commissioner will track Palestinian Authority reform efforts in coordination with international donors. And again, what we're talking about is reform in the sense that you're talking about, Seamus, which is like depoliticization, apoliticization, buying people fucking bus tickets to leave the country. A source interviewed by Reuters said that the reforms that Tony Blair's plan expects of the PA are, quote, not cosmetic and that the reason that there's not a set timeline for them to hand over the Authority of Gaza to this newly reformed PA is that the process will be performance based. So, yeah, the pa, of course, is the organization. You could argue they do need reform, but nevertheless they need reform in a.

[Seamus Malik]

Direction that is not going to be palatable to Israel.

[Matt]

But they also. This plan envisions the establishment of the Gaza Investment Promotion and Economic Development Authority to secure private finance for Gaza's reconstruction, saying it will be a commercially driven authority led by business professionals and tasks of generating investable projects with real financial returns.

[Lewis]

It's going to be like, do you want to, do you want to build like a, like a Trump casino in Gaza? And then we're going to kind of like rattle a can in front of various Gulf states and be like, hey, do you want to build. I don't know if I can put a TV station there or something.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, massive AI Starbucks.

[Seamus Malik]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Are you, are you one of the glasses guys?

[Lewis]

And here's the thing. If you are one of those glasses guys and you're one of those people or you're one of the people who commissions the glasses guys because you're like, I want to build some like, interesting architecture that gets a lot of like, attention, right? You then ask the question, how do you give me any kind of meaningful guarantee that Israel don't blow it up in a battlefield six level spectacle in like six months or a year or five years or 10 years? And the answer is deny. Because yeah, to be honest, it really seems like there is no effective lever on Israel other than Donald Trump's capriciousness, which is not something I would bet a building on.

[Seamus Malik]

Now there is restrictions on that. Now you're talking about, you know, the threat of these might get blown up. That only exists if the Palestinians that are utilizing these projects actually live there.

[Lewis]

That's true.

[Seamus Malik]

When they're talking about, I mean, I have a, I have an image in front of me of 10 megaprojects that have been suggested for this. It's unclear on the source, but I have seen this image, this graphic before. I mean, they're talking about things like the Elon Musk Smart Manufacturing Zone, the American Data Center Safe Haven, the MBZ Central highway, which is the name of the Dubai. No, sorry, the Abu Dhabi ruler, the Abrahamic Gateway, the Abrahamic Infrastructure corridor. These are things that Palestinian workers would work on in the same way that Palestinian workers from Gaza in the 1980s would come into Israel, work on projects and then go back. But I mean they're talking about planned cities with AI powerings and dynamic and modern. But these do not appear to be Things that will have a lot of autonomy to them. These will not be things that any sort of self government would be allowed to take control of. I mean, the things that.

The anti Hamas forces that IDF is building up in, like Bayt Lahiya and in Rafah with Yasir Abu Shabaab, these are not administrations in the way that you and I think of them. They are militias that have trucks and they have tents and they gain collaborators, but they are not rebuilding anything. They exist to tempt you with regular food and regular medical services, in contrast to the services that were destroyed in your own cities. But there is no future being offered there. It is simply to exist and then you die off.

[Matt]

And what's notable, because I've seen the presentation as well that you're citing, is that the vast majority of the companies mentioned in it, and this is like a presentation that's not just like obtained from like Google. This was like republished by the Washington Post and then republished again by Wired. Like there is some, you know, journalistic rigor you can, you can presume that's gone in behind this is, you know, all these companies are getting contacted and they're like, we don't know what you're talking about. And I think that's largely because there is still a hesitancy.

[Seamus Malik]

No, no, they don't want to be associated. They know what this looks like. In the same way that like when Khashoggi was killed, lots of countries pulled out of, you know, Davos in the desert and all these different infrastructure projects in Neom. But once that, you know, left the public consciousness to a certain extent, then they came back in, in droves. Then they started investing in NEOM again. Then they started getting back on board with the PR offensive. Saudi Arabia. That's clearly, I think, the hope here that maybe if they can change the discussion from the genocide that has occurred and is still occurring to rebuilding, which is much more value neutral, even positive, then they can say, hey, we're not actually participating in ethnic cleansing here. We're trying to make a better future future for them. And then that's when they can hitch themselves to it publicly.

[Eleanor]

Well, quite.

[Matt]

And I mean this. And there's several versions of this proposal floating around.

[Seamus Malik]

Right.

[Matt]

The one that, that we're talking about is kind of the most, I would say like tech guy, Fantasist, the one that's being linked directly to Tony Blair is much more Blair. Right. It's very like we're going to create investment zones or you get tax breaks and we're going to be a commercially driven authority led by business professionals.

[Lewis]

Palestinians are finally going to experience the joys of benefit sanctions.

[Matt]

Yeah, we're going to remake make Britain, but without all of the pesky rights and existing institutions and existing houses and buildings that Tony Blair had to confront when he was Prime Minister here and had his utopian visions for this place.

[Eleanor]

All right, so they're going to get like the, they're going to get the marble Ouch mound as well.

[Matt]

They're going to get ID cards showing.

[Lewis]

Up in the wake of a genocide to do some kind of like median center, right. Nanny state stuff and be like, yeah, I mean there will be an allowance of food, but it is going to be like, you know, sugar substitutes.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like when there is eventually a.

[Lewis]

You've got Jamie Oliver in to assign the rationing.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, it's not going to, you're not, you're not going to get like Turkey Twizzlers.

[Matt]

Yeah, we're going to. When the AI Starbucks does get built here, we're actually only allowing medium sized drinks as a maximum. That's like the first rule of Tony Blair's, you know, Gaza experience. And you know, the other thing, right, is that this is not just Tony Blair, this is also coming from inside the uk UK government, where Hamish Falconer, the Middle east minister within the UK recently said, and this is an official speech, it's published on the UK government website, you can find it there. He says, together we are backing a Palestinian led recovery and reconstruction. We must be ready to act to clear rubbles or rebuild homes, set up infrastructure, restore access to education and healthcare. Even then, also just even then, even when talking about a group of people who has undergone sort of the greatest horror of this century, probably, they still can't just say restoring education, health care. They have to talk about access to health care. They can't just say it. But Gaza, Gaza and Palestine more broadly is real economic potential, human capital, great resilience, fucking say a critical location in a global diaspora. And that potential must be unlocked. This is the conference about how we do that together, how we support the Arab reconstruction plan, how we unlock the vast resources needed not just through traditional donor finance, but thinking creatively to bring in private capital. And the language that is being used by Falconer here is so strikingly similar to how fucking Bridget Phillipson talks about getting people back to work in the uk. It's like they have one worldview.

[Lewis]

Yeah, they only have one mode, whether that's for talking to Palestinians or talking.

[Matt]

To Britain, which is like, hey, we're, we're going to unlock your potential. We're going to give you access to health care. We're going to do that by like regulating what drink size you can have and, you know, giving you an ID card that zaps you if you don't go to your like, you know, work capability interview at a job center that doesn't exist. Yeah.

[Lewis]

And to do all of that is bad enough, but to do it specifically in the wake of a genocide that you haven't just been sort of providing political cover for, but you've been making money selling weapons used in is a level of, of evil that I struggle to kind of comprehend.

[Matt]

Oh, God. And so what, what I come back to with the ceasefire, when you want to look at it in totality, there is very little fire that actually seems to be ceasing. But it seems as though this has kickstarted the real estate business bonanza private finance contest between whatever fucking tech goblin invented the AI generated Gaza reconstruction plan that we talked about initially, or just, you know, Tony Blair doing his, like, we're finally going to do Blairism, but correctly. Like, all of this is surrounding a real estate bonanza that because there is a quote, unquote, fake ceasefire, people feel permitted to talk about. If I was to sum it all up, that's kind of the totality of what I see.

[Seamus Malik]

I think it's been a bit too soon since the ceasefire was signed to see if there's been a distinct change. I think that will become more manifest if we get to phase two negotiations. I should say that if right now Israel is predicating the start of those negotiations on Hamas returning all of the bodies of the Israeli hostages, which they are endeavoring to do, but virtually the entire strip has been demolished, essentially people buried under rubble, countless people buried under rubble, heavy equipment being restricted. They sent in, they're trying to send in, I want to say like something like an 80 bulldozer, strong Turkish rescue force to find these people. But Israel is placing restrictions on that because they think it might be used for Hamas purposes.

[Matt]

Yeah, they're all going to make killdozers, whatever.

[Seamus Malik]

They don't want this to actually come to pass. They got all the living hostages out, so the main political pressure on Netanyahu was removed. They could still claim that they're holding dead hostage bodies. And that can in perpetuity be a reason to go back in and to encroach on territory in Gaza to bomb, to kill, to maim. And they don't ever really have to get to phase two if they don't want to. If they get to phase two, then they can hold that in limbo for however long they want to, because inevitably, Hamas is not going to want to accede completely to a Tony Blair transitional government. So I think it'll take a while. It'll get there, I think, to a point in which they can start talking about this stuff much more openly, because they have have to if they're talking about phase two stuff. But that might be a bit.

[Matt]

So, basically, it seems like it has happened. It's happened with maximum cynicism, and it's happened in such a way that, again, is maximum cynicism that is on the part, especially of the Western allies who are pretending that this is some kind of a meaningful breakthrough.

[Seamus Malik]

I mean, when Trump talked about the ceasefire coming to pass, he did not refer to it exclusively as. As, you know, a regular ceasefire in the way that Biden might have talked about it, though. Also, I read through the transcript recently of Biden announcing the ceasefire in January, and it literally crosses out when Biden says Hezbollah and then corrects it to say Hamas on the White House official transcript. Oh, God. For 10 years he's had presidents whose brains don't function. Oh, God. Anyway, I mean, when Trump announced it, on Truth Social, he talked about 3,000 years of conflict coming to an end using that old trope, which is untrue, but it's an old trope nonetheless.

[Matt]

Yeah, we finally. We dealt with those Romans who are encroaching on Judea.

[Seamus Malik]

I mean, he is desperate for. I mean, just today he was talking with Anthony Albanese, the Prime Minister of Australia, and he said, basically, the Middle east is at peace, but they've got this little thing with Hamas they've got to figure out. It's like that's the one thing they've got to figure out, and then the entire region will be at peace. Yeah, I mean, there's a singular positive, but there's also a ton of negative negatives that come with this vision. The single positive is that he has got his hooks in this, his attention in this, and he actually wants it to continue to a certain extent, the.

[Matt]

Ceasefire negotiations, it's been made personal to him now. It is now personal to him.

[Seamus Malik]

It's the same way that when Netanyahu wanted to break the ceasefire with Iran so quickly. I mean, you saw him come off the helicopter and he looked exasperated and he said. And he literally said, like, they don't even know why the fuck they're fucking fighting each other. Like he saw it as a personal insult, and that kept his attention on it for a little bit.

[Matt]

Yeah, just like when fucking. When he meets with Putin and then Putin's like, you know, 40 minute, unprompted.

[Lewis]

Thing about Rurik the Wise or whatever fucking Blade character he's into. And, like, Trump is just like, I don't care. I mean, this is the thing. Netanyahu being difficult to deal with personally because he's a cunt is not new. I think often of the Bill Clinton quote where he gets out of a meeting with Netanyahu and says, who the fuck does that guy think he is? Who's the fucking superpower anyway? But Bill Clinton was beholden to a Democratic Party that needed him to be pro Israel. So was Biden. So would Kamala have been. Donald Trump is, weirdly, thanks to American Peronism, only answerable to himself. He could get out there and he could be like, it's all the Transjordan or whatever, and every single chud who isn't currently plotting to assassinate him would be like, yes, sir, Mr. President, I will die in a ditch for you.

[Matt]

Yeah, like he. Yeah, he could get all of them donning green headbands and driving trucks into the US like, embassy in Beirut.

[Lewis]

Donald Trump could become an Islamist, and it would work. The only thing is that his brain is melting from the inside out. And so the Bidenism will take him sooner or later. And so we just have to hope that he stays mad Yahoo long enough to affect anything before he starts getting, like, Earthrider. Thanks to the Great Lakes.

[Seamus Malik]

This is what is beneficial about the ceasefire negotiations. The fact that they are so often in the news that it keeps coming up and he keeps having to attend to them or delegate someone to deal with them. Now it's Vance's problem. Now it's Witkoff's problem. Now it's Kushner's problem. And he keeps being told about it. He doesn't have the opportunity, like, in January to forget largely about Gaza.

[Eleanor]

Do you think that, like, all his projects, like the Big Ball Ballroom and like, the. The arc to Trump are just, like, he's desperately trying to distract himself from, like, his actual job. And, like, his frustrations are like, I. I don't. I don't want to, like, think about Gaza anymore. I just want to, like, focus on my, like, you know, my. My big, wonderful ballroom.

[Seamus Malik]

The man loves the. The trappings of being president more than anything.

[Eleanor]

Yeah. And there is, like, an extent to which, like, I mean, obviously everyone knows this, but, like, I was Thinking about this the other day, like, Hamas, like, really do are aware of his lack of attention and his sort of inability to focus on stuff. And I did wonder who is more of an advantage when it comes to sort of taking advantage, I suppose, of this man's low attention span. Because I guess one of the points that seems to kind of be coming out is that even though everyone is basically fighting for this senile man's attention and to get him to sort of show a semblance of interest in global affairs, as he does with his vanity projects and his beefs and everything, everything, what feels like the challenge of Israel is, and I think this goes right back to one of the sort of beginning points of this episode, which is they want to appear to be normal and European and non threatening and this kind of the normal democracy that everyone should support. But their behavior in the past two years in particular have shown people who have even kind of broadly been sort of neutral when it's come to Israel to be like, no, no, actually they've really, really taken it too far or they've really committed stuff that is quite, quite frankly evil. And it's very, very difficult to defend that. But they're also dealing with both Israeli society and Israeli political culture that really, really wants more violence and is constantly drawing attention to itself because of its inability to kind of shut up or at least refrain from their sort of tendencies, even for a short period of time, to even kind of passively acknowledge a ceasefire. And every time this happens, this just becomes Trump's problem again. And I do wonder whether there is some point where Hamas kind of are much more aware of Trump's instincts in a way that even if Israeli politics is aware of it can't really sort of indulge. And I wonder whether there is an outcome where I don't think Israel will lose per se, but I wonder whether there is a sort of outcome where they don't actually get what they want. I don't know, maybe that's a bit. Maybe that's the most optimistic reading I can about talk have come up with.

[Seamus Malik]

The issue is that, I mean, there were certain instances in which when Steve Witkoff first became envoy, he told Netanyahu, I think, quote, I mean, to paraphrase him, like, don't fuck this up. It was very straightforward and that was seen as a benefit. But then he immediately started playing the deception game with Palestine negotiators. There was Adam Bowler, I think was his name, who was talking to CNN about how Hamas is actually kind of a reasonable guy. Guys. And then he turned out to be the main party in deceiving Hamas into letting Idan Alexander go. And then started talking about how Hamas needs to release all these hostages and then like talking like a super villain in his communications with them. Essentially, Trump is different because he's not young and he's, I mean, like, literally his mental faculties are declining. Like he can't keep a consistent perspective like Witkoff and Bowler and all these different people have. I mean, Hamas has gotten a little bit better at this. The reason why the ceasefire even came to pass was because they found a way to word their response so brilliantly that it made Trump feel good while also not committing to a Tony Blair led government. If they can get direct, more direct messages like that to Trump, that may be beneficial to it. But Trump is surrounded by tons of pro Israel figures who are much smarter than him and who are much, much more like, coherently minded than him and will always have the last word with them. It may get into his mind occasionally when he sees that nice message from Hamas being like, ah, I guess I.

[Matt]

Should go along with this.

[Seamus Malik]

But the next day they have, you know, Kushner comes back, Witkoff comes back, any number of different prohib people come back and then they can guide it back onto the, onto the rails.

[Matt]

And I mean, I want to go back to, just as we sort of come to the end here today, I want to go back to something, something November said on our episode with Eleanor Penny, which a couple weeks ago that was like, sort of covered some, like, related ground to this one, which was nova. You said this, that you understand Israel as right now the shop window of the rise of global fascism. Yeah, sure, right. Is like, these are the shock troops. This is what they want to be doing when the Samud flotilla comes in. This is like they're acting out the fantasies of doing it to all the people who, all the, the global sort of Facebook radicalized fascists all want to be doing. And it's like, I think that the idea that they' too far out ahead of this thing is probably, unfortunately overly optimistic. I think they are the vanguard.

[Lewis]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's an example, right. Of time and again we've seen, I mentioned the ability to get whatever you want out of particularly American politicians by virtue of constant angry dissatisfaction. And the combination of that and ignoring them and doing whatever you want and just kind of trying their patience over and over again. I kind of suspect that that's going to continue to be an effective political, political strategy. And you Just keep eroding things that would stop you and. Yeah, makes me very depressed.

[Matt]

Yeah, you keep eroding things. Like, for example, the post World War II global system of institutionalized cooperation.

[Lewis]

Yeah, well, because ultimately, like, yes, there is a lot of, like, positive action in the sense of, like, stuff that needs to be done in order to keep Israel, like, fighting the kind of of wars and, you know, perpetrating the genocides that it wants to perpetrate. Like, they have to be shipped the weapons. But some of that is so baked in that ultimately you can kind of view it the other way, where the only thing stopping them is the whim of one elderly pedophile.

[Seamus Malik]

God, this, this, this shit sucks, man.

[Lewis]

Comedy podcast.

[Seamus Malik]

Like, I hate. I hate.

[Matt]

It's.

[Seamus Malik]

It's so. I, I said, I said this before, but it's so. I was thinking about this on the trailer the other day. We are just ruled by syphilitic morons and that. We've been ruled by syphilitic morons at least here in America since I was in high school. Like, that's crazy that we're still at this. That we don't have even like a. I don't know if I take like a. A mind functioning fascist, but, like, I do remember a time in which the president could form, like, complete sentences. It's not outside of my memory. You know, they had like, a consistent political line that didn't really rely on, like, who talked to them last and hoping that they just stick with it. Like, God, man, what a fucking terrible way to live.

[Matt]

I think, I think for Next Episode, I found a startup that sells a carbon dioxide inhaler as, like a nootropic.

Maybe we should talk about that in the beginning of Next Episode.

Hey, kids, you want to get smarter? Trash ride a CO2 inhaler.

[Lewis]

Just like, wrap your lips around the exhaust pipe of the car just for a while. Going to make you feel great.

[Seamus Malik]

You don't need these fancy gadgets. There's a button that you can press in your car dashboard that gives you the same thing.

[Matt]

What if you own a Tesla, Seamus?

[Eleanor]

Nos is now woke, right? And it's like, for pussies. And so you need to, like, you know, you need, you need like a new thing.

[Matt]

Yeah. The company's called Carbo Genetics.

[Eleanor]

Oh, great.

[Matt]

Actually, do you just want to. Do you want to take another, like, five minutes and just run through carbogenetics?

[Seamus Malik]

Right?

[Matt]

I need this.

[Seamus Malik]

I need. I want to understand. I want to understand what is going on with this.

[Lewis]

Okay.

[Matt]

All right.

[Eleanor]

All right.

[Matt]

Carbogenics CO2 inhaler. Supercharge your body with the power of carbon dioxide. Oxygenate your cells. Improve your health by breathing CO2 rich air.

[Lewis]

Well, the thing is, you're going to want more oxygen, so the oxygen demand in your tissues is going to be. It's important to get that up. Right?

[Matt]

So apparently it's like what it does is you're breathing. It's. It is. It costs thousands of dollars. They. They take a firm which is like the American version of Klarna, and they're like, no, it simulates. Apparently it simulates the effects of box breathing. Except in this case, you can accidentally do too much and then be harmed. You can simulate the beneficial mental and emotional effects of smoke inhalation.

[Lewis]

Well, I mean, listen, ultimately when you. When you consider it, you don't get much more relaxed than when you're dead.

[Matt]

True. Build CO2 tolerance for resilience. The CO2 inhaler isn't just a quick fix. It's a training ground for your lungs. No, it's lungs.

[Lewis]

Lungs. Gym. You may call it a pack of cigarettes, but I call it lung gym.

[Matt]

So building your CO2 tolerance into a superpower that rewires how you perform and feel over time. Regular sessions teach your body to handle higher CO2 levels with ease, letting you hold your breath for longer and stay cool under pressure. So it's like you're basically doing homeopathic training for smoke inhalation and getting really good at smoking.

You start with a gentle 1 to 2% dose, then you gradually climb to 7% and watch your endurance.

[Lewis]

Hold on a second. Hold on a second. That particular mixture of carbon dioxide and oxygen called carbogen, I think it's like 5%, is notorious for causing extreme anxiety. Like, that's the bit at which you can. You can pitch it so that, like, you can breathe in it, but it still trips all of your, like, I am suffocating reflexes. So I'm not thrilled about that having really any applications.

[Matt]

Well, fortunately, this is only being sold to, like, biohackers and tech bros. So basically what's gonna happen is, like, maybe that's what happens. All the people who are working on AWS on the day of recording, they all did, like, a little bit too much carbage and freaked out and unplugged all the servers.

[Lewis]

Yeah, I. I'm, I'm just. I'm just reading. I'm just reading about this, and it seems like a really bad idea.

[Matt]

Well, they say, who's it for? It's for everyone who's ready to thrive. For example, the worn out warrior recharge when life leaves you drained.

[Lewis]

We are gonna, we're gonna partially suffocate. We're gonna dry waterboard a bunch of troops of ptsd.

[Matt]

Yeah, they're gonna, they love when you do that. The fitness fanatic push limits and recover like a pro. The stressed soul find peace in a hectic world. That sounds like it's for dying. Find peace in a hectic world if your soul is stressed.

[Seamus Malik]

I think they advertise the suicide pill. Children have been like that.

[Lewis]

Like a suicide pill that like advertises itself on the basis of you will have a horrible time and you're going to be scared the whole time you're dying.

[Matt]

So the brainiac stay sharp for every task or test. Again, like sharp in the sense that you think you're suffocating. The sleepless drift off easy and wake up refreshed. Or the everyday optimizer feel your best every day. Frequently asked questions. Is it safe? Yes, it is 100% safe. It uses beverage grade RAID CO2. I don't think that's the problem.

[Seamus Malik]

Like, it's just like drinking a Coke. Is that the idea?

[Matt]

Yeah, it's like what if, what if you were dry waterboarded with only the bubbles in Coke?

[Seamus Malik]

Oh wow, that's something. I. What happened to just smoking?

Why is this necess just take vitamins? What the fuck does this mean? If I googled this, does a suicide hotline show up?

[Lewis]

Yeah, I'm on the arrow and trip reports thing for Carvagen. I got passing out in slow motion near death question mark. A carbon experience gone awry.

[Matt]

So the other frequently asked question after is it safe? And they're like, yes, it uses beverage grade CO2. I assume that's the vector of safety we're talking about. The next one down is will it cure my condition? And then they say it's not a cure. It's a performance and wellness booster. This device isn't tested for specific diseases. Ask your doctor for medical needs. Then what's it feel like? A subtle warmth with deeper breaths. Some feel a mild tingle as blood flow flow ramps up. Then pure clarity and perfect calm again. Sounds like something to kill yourself with. Don't wait. Claim yours before they're gone. And that's okay.

[Seamus Malik]

Before.

[Matt]

Before we move on. The other really funny thing is they were like, okay, yeah, look, do we have the CO2 inhaler? But what about someone who wants a what can only be described as the carbogen vac cube experience.

[Seamus Malik]

Is that, Is that what they do in like Berlin sex clubs? They have like. They have like.

[Lewis]

This would be irresponsible for a Berlin sex club.

[Eleanor]

I.

[Lewis]

Concerned about my condition. The friend administering the gas removed the mask around what would have been breath 30. I had been thrashing about in a manner described to me later as being somewhat seizure.

[Matt]

Like, when the mask came off, my.

[Lewis]

Lips were pressed together and turning blue from lack of oxygen.

[Matt]

So basically what they sell is, look, the mask, that's too easy to remove. What if you got into an entire suit with a helmet that's slowly filled with carbon?

[Seamus Malik]

You know, looking, Riley just sent me the video. And this is. This is a fetish object. This is an inflation fetish object. This is. This is not meant for human conception. This is someone.

[Lewis]

There are. There are some kink applications here.

[Seamus Malik]

This is not made for. This is for sex. This can be made for anything other than. Other than sex.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Seamus Malik]

I'm looking at this environment. It's just like, okay, wait, hold on, hold on. There's. There's a great movie called yes, Men Save the World. And in that, at the very end, they're doing a fake presentation to investors about like giant inflatable orb suits, and they show a video of all these people. Like, after global warming has flooded the world, they can all join together in these inflatable orbs suits and then like take on the world anew. And it's like, this is what they look like, like the fake suits, and.

[Matt]

They'Re meant to kill you. So why is tissue oxygenation and perfusion important? Well, if you wear the carbogen fucking.

[Lewis]

If you wear the carbon gimp suit.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, if you wear the carbogen gimp suit and then also do, I guess a form of breath play that kills you.

[Lewis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

They say you actually lower hypoxia and increase the use of oxygen within the cells. So it's like, hey, by. By forcing you to not die, just like.

[Lewis]

Yeah, just. Just stretch that oxygen, you know, really make sure it gets. That's. That's incredibly pseudoscientific. And you know how you can prove that, like, oxygen deprivation is bad for you is because if you deprive someone of oxygen for long enough, they fucking die.

[Matt]

Well, you might say it's pseudoscientific, but they also say carbogen products have been talked about in such podcasts as how to Beat Cancer with cancer whisperer, Dr.

[Lewis]

Q, and now Trash Future. I'm going to, I'm going to keep reading here. My lungs still ate from the experience and there was a horrible stabbing pain.

[Matt]

In them when I coughed.

[Lewis]

This diminished over a couple of days. About 30 to 60 minutes after the experience, I also became aware that my tongue hurt. And a few hours later when I looked in the mirror, I noticed what looked like a large bloody cold sore. I may have bitten my tongue when I was banging around. Or perhaps Carvagen's alteration of the acid alkaline levels of my blood contributed to my getting a cold sore.

[Matt]

Yeah, hey, maybe, maybe so.

[Lewis]

Maybe it could be that side effects.

[Matt]

May include all of that.

[Lewis]

Maybe getting cold sore, maybe banging around in a seizure like way and biting through your tongue and cyanosis of the lips, you know.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, sounds like a good time.

[Lewis]

Yeah, so I mean, well, I wouldn't recommend this. I wouldn't recommend this to people who are not doing this for sex reasons and I wouldn't really recommend this to people who are either.

[Seamus Malik]

You should be much safer when you are having sex.

[Lewis]

Yeah, I really recommend that doing unsafe sex, which is not. Not wearing protection section, but actually just putting myself in the breath place suit.

[Seamus Malik]

Don't kill yourself during sex. I can't stress that enough.

[Lewis]

I'm trying my best not to.

[Matt]

Jesus. Or at least don't use some kind of a pseudo scientific nootropic fucking carbogen suit.

[Seamus Malik]

Do it in a cool way like the guy from Kill Bill did.

[Lewis]

If you die in a sex accident, it should be a way that's like a fun story rather than a depressing embarrassing story, you know, it shouldn't be.

[Matt]

This kind of embarrassing. It should be like, yeah, you'd never.

[Eleanor]

Really catch David Carradine in one of these.

[Seamus Malik]

This was dignified.

[Lewis]

Like some kind just zip me into the suit. Like some kind of Gooner astronaut.

We choose to jerk ourselves off while choking ourselves. And the other things in this decade, not because they are easy, but because we are hard.

[Matt]

All right, you know what mean to say. Pretty glad, pretty glad I found the carbagenetics.com we went long today, but I think we all needed to hear from carbagenetics.com so thank you for your patience, everybody.

[Eleanor]

Yeah, and thank and thanks to them for sponsoring this show.

[Matt]

We were all sitting in the carbogen suits, all of us including Seamus who has shipped one. And then I forgot to turn on the carbon until like an hour and four minutes approximately.

Yeah, it was just a sort of quite straightforward, relatively serious interview until I was like oh shit, the Carbagen.

[Eleanor]

Gotta turn that on.

[Matt]

Anyway, look, Seamus, as always, it's a Pleasure to talk to you. Shame about what we often have to talk to you about. But where can people find a little more Seamus, including hearing you talk on an RSS feed that you control?

[Seamus Malik]

Yes, they can. Go to Seamus malikfzelle.com for my substack, where I write about all things political in the Middle East. And for Turbulence, you can go to turbulencepod.substack.com where we will be dropping the first episodes on October 28th, eight days out from this recording. Whenever your record where you were listening to this, it might be different, I don't know.

[Matt]

It's recorded on Monday, October 20th. It'll be released at some point on Tuesday, October 21st. So do the calendar math appropriately. Maybe you're May. Hey, maybe you started listening at some point in like December and you have, like a long drive and you're listening to this in December.

[Lewis]

Guess what?

[Matt]

Turbulence is out and it's been out for a while, so you probably got a lot of episodes to catch up on.

[Seamus Malik]

I think that's a great thing.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Hello to the future. How's. How's life? Have we fixed. Everything is carbon everywhere. All right, all right. Look, Seamus, thanks a lot for coming on. Thank you to my co host for putting up with a slightly longer episode today.

[Seamus Malik]

Of course.

[Matt]

And thank you to the listeners for listening to us. You can also find us on Patreon. You know all about it. It's Patreon. It's trash future. It's £4.50amonth. There's another episode every week. Second episode this week could be a couple of things, actually. I'm still kind of working it out, so, you know, stay tuned, but we'll see you there. Bye, everybody. Bye.

[Seamus Malik]

Bye.