CO-HOST | Make Money by Building an Audience Before You Need One

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Travis Makes Money

Episode: Make Money by Building an Audience Before You Need One

Host: Travis Chappell
Co-Host/Guest: Eric (Producer)
Date: June 7, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Travis Chappell is joined by his producer, Eric, for a candid, energetic conversation about the strategy and value of building a personal audience—before you actually need one. Drawing from their own podcast and social media journeys, Travis and Eric dig into practical tactics, mindset shifts, and behind-the-scenes stories about content creation, handling unfollows, and leveraging audience-building for future projects. Throughout, the discussion maintains a laid-back, entrepreneurial tone, focusing on authenticity, experimentation, and the evolving landscape of content and personal branding.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Build a Personal Audience? (01:40–06:46)

• Eric’s Motivation:
  Eric shares his struggle with splitting focus between his successful brand account (Preacher Boys) and his underdeveloped personal account. He recently began intentionally posting on his personal page to establish his own identity beyond the Preacher Boys brand.

  "I don't know when Preacher Boys ends... I want them to go like, what's Eric going to do next?" — Eric (05:22)

• Strategic Reasoning:
  Both Travis and Eric agree that building a personal audience creates flexibility and resilience for future projects, book launches, or new ventures, making transitions smoother if a current project concludes.

• Document Creation and Daily Life:
  Eric describes a new focus on sharing behind-the-scenes posts—writing sessions, outings, gym visits—to document his journey, not just display finished products.

2. The Uncomfortable Truth About Followers and Unfollows (06:27–09:57)

• Platform Metrics Transparency:
  Eric enjoys Instagram’s insights, where unfollows are just as telling as new follows:

  "I love when people unfollow me… it tells me that the people who are following are engaging specifically with the type of stuff I’m doing.” — Eric (06:34)

• Audience Curation:
  They highlight the importance of filtering out unengaged or mismatched followers, which boosts meaningful engagement and strengthens brand clarity.

3. Creating vs. Documenting (10:35–11:21; 11:21–12:19)

• Two-Track Approach:
  Travis notes the distinction between “creation” and “documentation”:

  "It feels like Preacher Boys is where you create and Eric is where you document." — Travis (10:35)

• Diversifying Content:
  Eric plans to build his name through various channels, including a book and op-eds, leveraging his personal Instagram as the documentary platform to support those efforts.

4. Learning From Past Mistakes: Fake Followers and Starting Fresh (11:26–14:13)

• Fake Follower Cleanup:
  Travis recounts paying a VA to remove purchased fake followers, a common pitfall for creators following bad marketing advice.

  “Turns out all they did was send me a bunch of fake accounts... now they’re in like Instagram jail.” — Travis (12:18)

• Willingness to Start Over:
  For many, starting a brand new account may be smarter than cleaning legacy accounts bogged down with bad followers.

  "Instagram likes brand new accounts. If you're creating, like, good content for a specific type of person, they want to show that..." — Travis (13:17)

5. The Joy and Freedom of Experimentation (14:13–18:17)

• Low-Stakes Playgrounds:
  Eric enjoys the freedom his small personal account brings:

  "It feels like I can just fool around... I don't have an audience that expects anything yet." — Eric (17:09)

• Comfort in Uncertainty:
  With no expectations from new audiences, creators can try new content, opinions, and see what resonates, all while learning the ropes of new formats and platforms.

6. Build the Audience Before the Product Exists (19:04–20:48)

• Real-World Example:
  Travis shares the story of a water filtration startup that built a massive email list months before their product existed by running ads and testing ideas, allowing for a six-figure product launch and subsequent rapid growth.

  "By the time they had the product available to launch, they had like 10 to 20,000 emails... their first month they did six figures in sales." — Travis (19:43)

• Actionable Tip:
  Audience-building can and should begin while you’re still in the development phase of your product or project—engaged people will be eager supporters on launch day.

7. Authenticity and Documenting the Creative Process (20:43–22:57)

• Transparency Builds Trust:
  Eric documents his book-writing process in real-time, emphasizing that sharing struggles and progress builds authenticity in an era saturated with AI-generated content.

  "I think documenting the process, it's more important now than when, like, Gary Vee was talking about it 10 years ago." — Eric (21:52) "With how easy it is to create now, the documenting is almost the... proof of the certificate of authenticity." — Eric (22:05)

• Involving Your Audience:
  Prospective buyers who’ve followed the journey feel more invested and are more likely to support the eventual product.

8. Tactical Takeaways: Experiment, Don’t Wait, Iterate (23:04–24:39)

• Start Now, Don’t Wait:
  Travis urges listeners not to postpone content or audience-building until launch day.

  "If you have anything that's in the chamber... start talking about it during the process." — Travis (23:35)

• A/B Testing Content:
  Eric tests different hooks and angles for the same video to see what performs best—sometimes a new approach more than doubles engagement.

• Repurpose and Cross-Pollinate:
  Posting podcast snippets, personal opinions, and miscellaneous content not only diversifies your outreach but unlocks new audience segments.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Audience Churn:
  “I love when people unfollow me. It tells me that the people who are following are engaging specifically with the type of stuff I’m doing.” — Eric (06:34)

• On the Value of Starting From Scratch:
  “You would potentially get a bigger, better following of people who actually care about your stuff in a shorter period of time than it would take you to go through and remove all the riff raff from your current follower count.“ — Travis (13:17)

• On Documenting vs. Creating:
  "Preacher Boys is where you create and Eric is where you document." — Travis (10:35)

• On Transparency and Authenticity:
  "With how easy it is to create now, the documenting is almost the... proof of the certificate of authenticity... this book was written by a human being." — Eric (22:05)

• On Proactive Audience Building:
  “By the time they had the product available to launch, they had like 10 to 20,000 emails… their first month they did six figures in sales.” — Travis (19:43)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:40 – Eric’s rationale for building his personal audience
• 06:34 – Discussion on followers, unfollows, and meaningful engagement
• 10:35 – Differentiating between creating and documenting content
• 11:26 – The dangers of fake followers and reflections on starting over
• 14:13 – Experimenting with new platforms and content with low pressure
• 19:04 – The story of building an audience before launching the product
• 20:43 – Importance of documenting creator journeys for authenticity
• 23:04 – Tactical advice: experiment, iterate, and test content regularly

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Conclusion

This episode provides actionable, experience-based advice for anyone looking to build an audience online. Travis and Eric champion transparency, experimentation, and the power of starting before you’re ready. Their discussion is packed with candid confessions, real-world case studies, and tactical suggestions, all delivered in a relatable, no-pressure style that encourages creators to treat audience building as a journey worth documenting, not just a numbers game.

If you’re looking to future-proof your projects, launch a book or business, or simply express your brand more authentically, the lessons here are clear: start building and documenting now, before you “need” your audience—because their engagement and loyalty begin long before your product is ready.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis what's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast with our mission to help you make more money on this episode of the show. My producer Eric is in studio. What's up, Eric?

[C]

The sky, Travis.

[B]

Oh, you did it twice in a row. Okay, I was just checking.

[C]

Anyway.

[B]

Anyway, you said that you wanted to talk about.

[C]

No, you said you wanted to talk about.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

No, you said you wanted to talk about. No. You had an idea for a podcast. No. Well, the last time you actually did say it because we were talking about in the last episode, we were chatting about how it's easy to forget to take pictures because I don't know about you. I feel like I'm going so analog with stuff I don't think think about. Let me post this, let me do this. And then I said, well, now I am because I'm trying to grow my personal account. So I was like, I'm getting pictures of everything and posting it. And then you're like, yeah, we should talk about that on an episode. And I was like, that sounds really boring. You're like, no, trust me, dude. So what's your thoughts, Travis?

[B]

Now I was curious what the intention behind growing your personal account or why focus on that when a lot of it is on your Preacher Boys account. And that would make sense for the book. Like have you. But I've seen the account growing. I've seen you've been posting a lot more. You've been doing actual clips that are specifically for your personal account versus just on Preacher Boys. You do a lot of collabs and stuff too. I was curious what that intention behind that was and how you found it growing your own personal stuff.

[C]

Well, Travis, what I was telling you before we hit record, and then I said, ah, we'll just record it is I'm a celebrity now. Okay. No, so here's basically what the issue is. So I've had a personal. I hate this. A professional page that's not just my normal Facebook page. And I've had my Instagram, which I've always kept pretty professional. It's just. I mean, as professional as I get. But it's always been just me. I've never been like a family. Here's my family and stuff. It's just like, it's me. Here's what I'm working on. But I've always struggled with exactly that, which is like, I have preacher boys, which has grown. That's what. There's probably more people that call me preacher boys than know my name. The preacher boys, you know, like, it's preacher boys guy. The guy. You know, that guy. And so I've always struggled with, okay, I have an account that's doing really well, and then I have this account that has, like, had like 600 followers on Facebook. And I was like, what do I put here?

[B]

Was that. Do you remember what was your followers count on Instagram before you started focusing on it? I don't remember.

[C]

I don't know. Why would I keep track of data, Travis? I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I could probably find out, but it's, like, doubled recently.

[B]

Really, right?

[C]

I don't think so.

[B]

No. Maybe I just thought it was smaller

[C]

than before you started. It sounded really cool. But anyway, my issue was I always would struggle with. To know what do I post there? What is my brand? Because the thing I would always do is I'd go through spurts. I'm like, let me tell people how to help grow their social, you know, whatever. And I just didn't care about doing that kind of content, so I would stop doing after, like, three days. Like, hope that helps somebody. And now I feel like because I actually have things going on, it's easier for me to post. But I know I. All sincere, all sincerity, but you're doing, like, actual posts.

[B]

Like, things that are outside of the context of your podcast.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you're doing like. Like actual. Like, you're posting stuff that's meant for Instagram, specifically for your personal page.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So not just like, oh, here's a clip from my podcast that I'm deciding to put on my personal versus my podcast page.

[C]

Yeah. The last 30 days, I've had 89 new followers on Instagram. I haven't quite doubled.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But wonder what it is over the last 60. See there? I'm just going to get disappointed at Mike's slow growth. I'm up 280 overall.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Which is not bad, actually, for just posting random stuff. I'm not going crazy. Yeah.

[B]

We're talking about, like, seven posts.

[C]

I've also lost a lot of followers. So anyway, we'll talk about that. Cause I'm happy about that. So, anyway, I had my main page and then I had my personal page. And I always struggled because it was like, all the stuff I do personally, it's not. Preacher Boys has been just like, I'm helping other people do xyz. And I also always. Which I shouldn't. But I also always feel weird being like, here's me behind the scenes filming this thing with someone cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which I shouldn't feel weird about because it's cool, you know, But I. But now that I have some projects I'm working on personally, beyond the show, like, it's given me. It's what you've talked about before. It's like, I'm just doing more cool things. So I'm trying to be more intentional about talking about them. And I think a lot of times what happens with content is like, I'm so busy doing cool stuff that I don't have time to look like I'm doing cool stuff. And I always tell people that with Preacher Boys too, is like, I'm working on my biggest stories when you're not seeing anything from me online because I don't have time to do it. So anyway, so I'm trying to grow it. The reason I'm trying to grow it is because. And I've been telling you this with your stuff is like, I don't know when Preacher Boys ends. I don't think it's anytime soon, but I don't want it to end. And people will be like, oh, well, Preacher Boys is done. I want them to go like, what's Eric going to do next? Or what's he doing in conjunction with this? And so I'm trying to be more intentional about. I'm working on a book, I'm writing articles, I'm trying to make the Eric name something on its own. And so far it seems to be working. Okay, I will say. Because I just mentioned it and I'll forget to say it later, but on Instagram, I love that it shows you your follows, your unfollows, and you're altogether following.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Your overall overall growth. Because it's my. It's actually my favorite thing to see.

[B]

Unfollows.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I love when people unfollow me. So Same. So in the last 60 days on my personal Instagram, I had 379 follows and 99 unfollows, which my overall is 280.

[B]

My gut is that that will not be that high in the next like three months. Oh yeah, but like at first initial we're like, I'm now posting this type of stuff. The people who are like, I don't want to see that type of stuff are just like, all right, unfollow. Yeah, but that's obviously ideal.

[D]

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[C]

Chime.com disclosures so yeah, so I, I love seeing that because it's, it tells me that the people who are following are engaging specifically with the type of stuff I'm doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then the people who are like, it's not for me are leaving. Which means that like I'm gonna get better interactions moving forward on my stuff. So again, it's kind of an experiment right now, like trying to see what's best. And I still don't feel like I've 100% nailed it, but like I'm just freeing myself up to be like, if I'm writing, I'm gonna post a behind the scenes picture every time I can remember, which I miss a lot right now, like in terms of remembering to do it. If we go out to go do something and we're like, we went to a comedy show. Let's grab a picture. If I go to the gym, I'm gonna try to grab a picture. If I go. So I'm trying to do more of that and make sure I don't have all my eggs in just the podcast basket.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it feels like Preacher Boys is where you create and Eric is where you document.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. And then obviously that's all online, but also the Book is gonna be a big creation piece that lives outside of the podcast and any articles I write. Cause I'm gonna start aggressively pursuing those, especially as the book gets closer to being done. I wanna start doing op EDS and different newspapers and magazines. Cause that's where all the people are. But I wanna do stuff where it's. I can talk about the stuff that I can't necessarily go all the way into with preacher boys. But it's like again it's. The more that I do, the more I can refine like what is my message overall and my brand.

[B]

You know, I really like the idea of like just starting something from scratch.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like it feels. I've had several people actually email me because we put out that one video about fake followers and that we paid that one va. Because I think, I think that va that I paid removed like 50,000 followers over like a six month stretch because I paid for this marketing service. Turns out all they did was send me a bunch of fake accounts type thing. And I didn't like that. So I hired a VA to go through and we made a video about it. And ironically that's been one of the most responsive videos we ever put out on YouTube where people in the comments, but also people literally finding my email, emailing me and going, hey, can you like, can I pay your VA to do this for me too? And I've it actually for anybody listening might be a solid business because there's a lot of people out there who got bad marketing advice, paid for a bunch of followers, realized that that's a terrible way to grow your account.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And frankly just didn't know what they didn't know when they did it. They were just like, hey, who knows about growing accounts on Instagram? And some person was like, I do. And they paid them 10 grand, got him 100,000 fake followers, and now they're in like Instagram jail. And so there's people who reached out and were like, hey, can we use this service? You know what I mean? Because we, we also fell into this, this trap and there was someone that reached out to me over there recently and I was just like, well, how many followers do you have? Because if you're, if we're talking about you, you had 400 followers and you bought 10,000. Like it would probably be better to just start a brand new account. Like, and, and they would not do it. They were just like, no, I just don't. I, I've just like, I've gotten some things on here. I just would prefer if it was just on this account, whatever. And it's just like. Yeah, but you're talking about like the, the, the boulder that's in your way of like removing all of these fakes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To get to an actual audience to then start creating, like, that's so much more work than it is to just start a brand new account from scratch. Because Instagram likes brand new accounts. If you're creating, like, good content for a specific type of person, they want to show that, like, they want to encourage you to stay on the platform so you'll potentially get. You would potentially get a bigger, better following of people who actually care about your stuff in a shorter period of time than it would take you to go through and remove all the riff raff from your current follower count. So I actually really like the idea. I'm just like, what happens if we start? That's why I've liked our podcast pages, TravisMakesMoneyPod and TravisMakesFriends. It's like those were brand new accounts that we started in the last year, year and a half, whatever.

[C]

Yeah, Travis Makes Money's doing.

[B]

Yeah, it's getting a million plus views a month and bringing in good followers. And it's all about money content. So I know the people that are following that account. Care to hear more about this thing? Travis makes friends, like, same thing. People who follow that account want to hear more about that thing versus, like, my main account, my Travis Chapel account is the one that I've had Since like, whatever, 2011 or whatever it was, and then has gone through a bunch of different angles and messages and groups of people that follow that account and people from this era of my life and then this era of my life and this era of my life. And then several times where I tried this marketing thing, got a bunch of weird random fakes, and then we remove it and then we add this and then we try this. And it feels more like my experimentation account to figure out what's going to work and what's not going to work. So I've even talked about, like, what if I'd started a brand new, almost personal account and just tried to grow it from scratch, like direct to camera, just me talking type of a thing instead of. Because, like, the majority of our stuff is obviously like clips from podcasts, regardless of what show it's on. And so I think there's something really valuable to that. And also, like, especially if you don't, if you don't bring it into your existing world, I think that that's sort of cool. It's like if you're, if, if you do it where it's not linked to your other accounts, like it's a completely different login, completely different, you know, phone number, email that's attached to it. It's not recommending your Facebook friends follow you, you know what I mean? Like, it's legitimately started from scratch. There's just something cool about like, I'm just going to put this out there and if there's an audience for it, probably people will start finding it and you'll get a really good sense for it. If you just post every day for like 90 days, you probably get a good sense of like, oh, that was worth my time, or that was not worth my time. And then you can try something else. You know, if, just like, if you have multiple things that you're trying to do and you're not exactly sure where you're trying to go, it's like, well, this is my golf account and this is my workout account and this is my professional account or whatever. And then like the ones that take off and then, okay, retroactively request a collaboration with your main account. If you want people to see the ones that did really well, then just, you know, have that be on the main account. You collab with those. You can now do it after you post it, which before you couldn't. So that's a good thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I think there's something, something cool, something powerful about just like start from scratch with a brand new idea concept. Even if you've been growing this account for 10 years, just like it's free. You know what I mean? Like, the only thing that costs you is the time to put more content on there. But you might even just be taking content from stuff that you're already posting other places, trying it on a new account.

[C]

That's kind of what I found myself doing. I was just looking. I was at 677 followers on Facebook at the beginning of the month, like May 5th or May 6th. And I'm at 800 now on the 24th. But honestly, what I've just been doing lately is I'll have stuff on podcasts that are. Because I've pulled stuff primarily from my main show. But it's either a question I ask that I feel like most people aren't going to care about. That's my selfish questions. But like, it's my personality where I can just throw it on my personal page. Like today I did an interview with somebody who's like, you know, we talked A little bit about, like, horror movies. I'll probably throw that on my main page, you know, or like, you know, I've done a couple where it's like, we'll talk about something that's like, not really a good fit for like Charles Ning's money. But like, I just said something that I think might be sound smart on my page, so I'll drop it there. But like, I have enjoyed that. This is like my small account where it's like, it feels like I can just fool around and be like, yeah, let's talk about, about this. And I don't have an audience that expects anything yet. But also, even with that, I don't know what I want it to be yet. So I'm not afraid to say something that someone who only knows me from Preacher Boys is going to be like, I don't like that. I'm going to unfollow you. Or I can share an opinion that I wouldn't share on a page that's a little bit different goal. So it's just been fun to fool around with it and I'm hoping it grows quickly because it'll be great to have that as a channel to like, again be able to market a book to this audience and to my personal audience. And, you know, that's, that's my driver for everything right now is like, how do I get the most eyeballs on me to then go, go buy this thing?

[B]

Do something with the attention later on

[F]

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[B]

Yeah, right. Which is what everybody should be doing if you know that you're, like, working on something like this. Interviewed the founder of this water filtration company recently. They built this countertop water device. Yeah. They were two and a half years in R and D before they had a product available. Yeah. But instead of just Waiting until they had a product available, they started making ads. Like their video ads were just basically like test your water or something like that. Or like, here's a test kit. Or like they, they were doing like really low stake stuff. And by the time they had the product available to launch, they had like 10 to 20,000 emails.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Of the ads that they were running up to the launch date. So their first month they did six figures in sales.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Month one. And they've been in business for a year and a half. They've done over eight figures in sales now. Like they were actively engaging with and building an audience around the thing they knew that they were eventually going to be able to solve. And then once they did have it available, that audience was ravenous for that thing because they wanted to see a solution to this problem. And they were able to sell out immediately and then order a new batch and then sell out again and then get some great partnerships on board and then continue, you know, building the company as it is now. Yeah, but there's something, there's something powerful to that. Like build the audience around the thing that you know is coming.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then when it actually is here, you'll have an audience of people to present that thing to rather than going like, oh, I just don't want to, I don't want to say anything about it until it's out because like, you know, what are they going to do in the meantime? It's like, well, they're going to continue consuming more of the stuff. Because they like it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it's solving a problem for them. Because they enjoy the content. And I feel like taining it's valuable. There's something there, you know, and I

[C]

feel like they feel like they're part of the process where it's like, you know, like I shared a post a week ago and I basically was talking about like I deleted a whole chapter of my book. Cause I didn't feel like it fit the book. And I, you know, added a little. I prettied up my little story about it where it's like, this is what goes into making one. And like, here's all the things I'm trying to be like. I basically, I want this book to be the best it can be. And I feel like because people are gonna see those posts in May of 2026, when it comes to May of 2027 and there's a pre order link, they're gonna know like, I slaved over this book through this whole time and I didn't just pull A book out of thin air. And I think, especially in, like, the AI era, I think showing people the process is going to be such, like, no one can sit there and go, like, unless I was a really good con person. Like, all the posts I've been doing about, like, here's what it looks like, here's the process. Here's how many hours I've been doing this. Here's how hard it is. Like, that's the proof that, like, when the book comes out, I didn't just go, like, write me a book on this topic. Here it is, I think documenting the process, it's more important now than when, like, Gary Vee was talking about it 10 years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, you need to document to prove that you did create it.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You know, that was actually your ip. There's gotta be a good way to say that that's for a clip. But. But I do think it's true. Like, Gary Vee always talks about, like, the document don't create or. Right, yeah, the document don't create. But I do think, like, with how easy it is to create now, it's like the documenting is almost the. The proof, the proof of the certificate of authenticity. Like, this book was written by a human being. And here's my really sad sob story of me in a cigar lounge. Like, I just deleted a chapter, guys, what am I going to do? Or, you know, even with dinner party, I think we'll probably talk more and more about, like, okay, guys, we did all this stuff and it looks awesome. And here's the highlight reels. But also, we're going through hell trying to figure out this part of the production process. Like, here, take a look. So then when you do see it, you know, it's like, it's like watching the birth of a child gives you a whole new appreciation for, like, what it means to have a child.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You know, it's just. It's different than just showing up with a baby one day. Like, oh, that's great, you know, so anyway, yeah, some thoughts.

[B]

Yeah, I think the challenge is basically, like, if you're not sure if. If you're not sure if you should, you know, be posting this to this page or posting this to that page, it might be worth just starting a new account from scratch and just posting whatever you want and then get comfortable with the format, get comfortable with the topic and see if that generates eyeballs rather than just being like, oh, well, check it off the list we posted today. You know what I mean? Like, really think about you know where you want this thing to end up. And if you have anything that's in the chamber, so to speak, like something that's coming down the pike and you know that that thing coming, don't wait until the day that it's here to start talking about it. Start talking about it during the process because it'll probably attract more eyeballs during that time.

[C]

And also, if you think you're saying something good or you have a message you think is important, record like 30 different versions of the same message. Because I did that the other day. I forgot. Cause I was trying to figure out what you were talking about when you said, I recorded something just for Instagram. And then I opened my Instagram, I was like, oh, yeah. But there's a video I recorded and I literally did just two different hooks on it. And like, one of those videos got like twice as many views and like twice the engagement and tons of feedback that was super positive. Like, one has 11 comments, one has 36, one has 157 likes, one has 342. And it's the exact same video and message. So it's like just experimenting with that too and not going like, oh, nobody cares about my cause, or nobody cares about my topic. Like, just do a say the same thing in as many ways as possible and then double down on whatever works.

[B]

Yep, that's that. Well, that's it for this episode of the show. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time. Peace.

[H]

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