CO-HOST | Make Money by Leveraging Opportunities Instead of Complaining About Outcomes

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Travis Makes Money

Episode: CO-HOST | Make Money by Leveraging Opportunities Instead of Complaining About Outcomes
Host: Travis Chappell
Co-Host/Guest: Eric (Producer)
Date: June 26, 2026

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Main Theme and Purpose

In this candid episode, Travis and Eric discuss the recent viral Instagram post by Sally Choi, the art director for the 2026 indie horror blockbuster “Obsession.” The conversation centers on the disparity between the film's astronomical success (made for $750,000, grossed over $250 million) and the low up-front compensation received by its crew. The hosts explore broader issues of risk, reward, gratitude, and opportunity in creative industries—and challenge listeners to see how “playing the opportunity game” can be leveraged for long-term gain instead of bemoaning short-term outcomes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Viral Post: Sally Choi’s Story

• [02:25 - 05:11] Eric reads Sally Choi’s Instagram post about her experience working as art director on "Obsession." She was paid $300/day, totaling $6,741.36 after taxes, for a movie that went on to gross $250 million. Choi acknowledges she knew and agreed to the rate but expresses frustration over the lack of equitable backend participation and poor working conditions.
• Choi's broader point: These issues are pervasive throughout the film industry, especially "below the line" crew roles.

2. Should Crew Get Back-End or Profit Participation?

• [05:14 - 07:56]
  • Travis: Raises questions about risk and reward. If the movie had bombed, would crew refund the pay? "At the end of the day, there's still somebody who took a massive risk on this and that would probably be the person who funded it first…"
  • Travis argues that the unpredictability and rarity of such success stories make it impractical to structure all indie contracts with profit-sharing.
• The point that being part of a hit indie film is a massive resume boost, positioning crew for better opportunities and pay in the future.

3. Industry Realities and Mindset Shift

• [07:56 - 13:43]
  • Eric: Pushes back slightly against the “this is how it’s always done” mentality, identifying the need for industry evolution while recognizing practical limits.
  • Travis: "The way it's always been done is not a reason to continue doing [it] right." But also notes that most indie films never see returns—focusing on the lottery-like nature of indie success.
  • Both emphasize that opportunity lies not merely in pay, but in the leverage gained from working on a successful project.

4. Comparisons and Nuance in Compensation

• [10:27 - 13:43]
  • Main actress also only received $20,000 for her work, and faces immediate expenses for PR, styling, and events.
  • Careers in entertainment build through low initial pay followed by higher compensation as reputation grows. Example: Director Curry Barker made his initial film for YouTube, allowing him to secure funding for “Obsession.”
  • Discussion of Zendaya’s “Malcolm & Marie” approach, where every crew member received 1% equity and earned large bonuses after the film sold—called rare but exemplary for future negotiations.

5. Where and How to Raise Issues

• [13:43 - 18:54]
  • Hosts agree change should be sought, but assert it’s more productive to have these conversations within industry circles, e.g., unions (like Local 800), and to frame points constructively.
  • Eric: "I just think there's a...like when I read the post, I feel severe empathy...but also, I was like, you're not gonna get hired for something after this."
  • Travis: “If you're going to take to social and [air grievances], do it in a way that's not going to blacklist you for future projects...You might not even be able to articulate it super clearly—it's just like, it is what it is. It's messy and it's kind of gross and it's going to give people a negative perception of how you work…”

6. Risk, Reward, and Taking Opportunities

• [23:32 - 25:55]
  • Travis: "The person who takes the most risk gets the most reward. So if you want a bigger reward, take more risk..."
  • Both point out that the average indie film crew gets paid far less—$249/day is common for low-budget films.
  • The greatest leverage comes from how crew capitalize on their participation, not from retroactively demanding bigger pay once a project succeeds.

7. Final Perspective: Using Success as Leverage

• [26:13 - End]
  • Travis: “Take advantage of the opportunity that you’re in. Be grateful for the things that happen when they go really well and then learn from it and see what you can do better the next time.”
  • Both stress the need to use breakout successes as a springboard, not a source of public regret or complaint.
  • Travis: “Money only solves your money problems, but it’s easier to solve the rest of your problems when you’ve got some money in the bank. So let’s start there.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [05:14, Travis]:
  “Probably there should be something about, you know, at least some sort of like a back end deal… But the question that I would have would be, what if the movie tanked? If the movie tanked, do you pay back all the money that you made while you were working there and you work for free because the movie ended up losing a bunch of money?”

• [07:23, Travis]:
  “…You have a huge, huge, awesome piece of awesome line on your resume that will allow you to book your next job and then be in a position where you can demand a much, much, much higher paycheck regardless…”

• [09:24, Travis]:
  “The way it's always been done is not a reason to continue doing [it] right.”

• [17:24, Eric on Zendaya’s film crew approach]:
  “Zendaya once gave her entire film crew at least 1% equity in her film Malcolm and Marie so they could earn a bonus after the film sold. The movie was sold to Netflix for an estimated $30 million. Each crew member made at least 300,000 bucks.”

• [19:05, Eric]:
  “I have sympathy, but also, I was like, you know, there's also layers to it where I was like, I just feel like you're shooting yourself. Like, this could be the greatest thing that ever happened literally to you.”

• [23:32, Travis]:
  “The person who takes the most risk gets the most reward. So if you want a bigger reward, take more risk...”

• [26:30, Travis]:
  “…Take advantage of the opportunity that you’re in. Be grateful for the things that happen when they go really well and then learn from it and see what you can do better the next time.”

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:25] — Introduction of Sally Choi’s post
• [05:14] — Discussion of pay structure and risk/reward
• [10:27] — Comparison with main actress pay & industry norms
• [13:43] — Zendaya “Malcolm & Marie” equity example
• [17:55] — On the value and leverage of opportunity
• [23:32] — “Risk gets the reward” and leveraging outcomes
• [26:13] — Final takeaways on gratitude and strategic leverage

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Tone and Takeaways

Authentic, unscripted, and nuanced. Travis and Eric balance empathy with hard-won realism, pushing listeners to consider their own role in pursuing and leveraging opportunities. Their advice goes beyond finance or film: If you want bigger rewards, take calculated risks, use every win as leverage for the next step, and avoid burning bridges by publicly lamenting outcomes you agreed to in advance.

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For more actionable insights and real-world stories about making (and keeping, and leveraging) money—especially by seizing opportunities rather than stewing over the past—listen daily to Travis Makes Money.

Transcript

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[Travis]

You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by GoHighLevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis. What's going on everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast. With mission to help you make some more money on this episode of the show. My producer Eric's in studio. What's up, Eric?

[Eric]

Hey, what's going on?

[Travis]

Not much.

[Eric]

Where am I?

[Travis]

What? Where am I in studio?

[Eric]

I'm sitting in my apartment and then people grab me, put a bag over my head and I get thrown in a van and next thing you know I'm in a podcast studio. I don't know, try and something new. Improv. Little improv.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yes.

[Eric]

Thanks for playing. Yeah, no, but we do have an episode to record, so I don't know if you knew this, Travis.

[Travis]

What's that?

[Eric]

I've been quite infatuated with this movie. I guess you could say I've been obsessed with this movie obsession. And I don't want to just sit here and go, wow, I can't believe that a 28 year old YouTuber made a movie. That 26 year old YouTuber made a MOVIE. And I don't want to just sit here and be like, wow, that's so incredible. And then also there's another movie by a 20 year old who can't even drink yet, who just made a movie that's blowing it up at the box office as well with the back rooms. I don't want to talk about that because we know all that stuff. Okay?

[Travis]

Okay.

[Eric]

What I do want to talk about is there was a an art director on Obsession that created a Instagram post that has sent the Internet into a tizzy. Are you familiar with this? Dang it. I wish you would stay off the Internet till we record because I'd love to show you. Did you read her post?

[Travis]

I did.

[Eric]

Okay, I'm going to read the post. I'm going to give my thoughts or I want to, I don't know. We'll find out what happens. I'm sure our thoughts will be read the Post.

[Travis]

And we will. We will give some commentary.

[Eric]

So this is. Let me get the name really quick. I want to make sure I'm right. Okay.

[Travis]

This is the art director of Obsession.

[Eric]

Oh, Sally. Yeah. Sally Choi, art director for Obsession, which was made for $750,000. And it became not only the biggest horror hit of 2026, I think I read the other day it is officially the highest grossing, low budget or highest return on budget for an independent movie of all time. Or something like that. It's insane. And two of those viewings were me and I liked it a lot. Here we go. She said, I've debated this for a long time. I've been holding a lot of weight over the past two years since the production of Obsession. So I'm going to say it as it is. Obsession was made for $750,000 and is projected to make $250 million. I think it's already rocketed past that. How much? I made $300 a day as art director. This came out to $6,741.36 after taxes. No mileage. I did know the rate beforehand and agreed to it. End of post. I'm just kidding. I did know the rate beforehand. That was too cynical because I do have nuanced feelings about this. I did know the rate beforehand and agreed to it, but at this point I was living paycheck to paycheck. This is the reality of most filmmakers, especially those who work below the line we welcome or we become a line in the budget sheet to keep as low as possible. There were also crew on Obsession who were volunteers getting paid in gas and mil. This wasn't even paid on time. So to make a $250 million grossing film, some of these amazing people had to come out of pocket to work on set. I kick myself every day for not flipping this production. I was encouraged not to and I naively listened. When she says, flipping this production, does it mean leaving or does it mean like raising a stink in the production?

[Travis]

I don't know.

[Eric]

Actually, every time I read it, I was like, what does flipping the production mean?

[Travis]

Maybe there's a term. Maybe there's a term or something.

[Eric]

I don't know.

[Travis]

Maybe it's like getting something on the back end or something.

[Eric]

I don't think so. As is the case for most low budget productions, everyone has to wear many, many hats. So my official title as art director was also a PA set dresser, graphic designer, background actor, driver, swing and buyer. I was doing runs for the art department. Again, no mileage I was shopping, loading, returning while the rest of the crew were on set. Thank you Jeff Barker for helping me during those times. I had to wrap Bear's house that was left an absolute mess without water or crafties left behind. I saw the movie, it was an absolute mess by the end of the movie, you know what I'm saying? I shopped at an entire location, Ian's house and loaded the truck the same day for shoot the which also happened to be an overnight. It took such a physical toll on my body. I kept losing weight weighing 90 pounds during this production. I sell this to finally have my piece. I know this is bigger than Obsession or Curry and his team. It's not about that. I know this is even bigger than the film industry. It feels exactly to the film industry. If you feel called to have this discussion with me, please do so. I'm willing to be wrong because I know I'm probably missing information. My perspective is just a drop in the bucket. If you're a crew member on Obsession and feel called to share your rate, maybe we can turn a tide in the film industry. What's your initial, what's your initial thought when you read it?

[Travis]

Yeah, I mean it's tough because as somebody who wants to see more of these types of projects, you know, flourish, probably there should be something about, you know, at least some sort of like a back end deal where it's like if the movie does something like this, which is, I mean it's wildly unpredictable, totally unheard of, it's breaking records, that massive movie like budgets have never even touched. Like it's, it's such a, it's such a one in a million type of a thing. But maybe there should be some of that in the contract negotiations that's just like if this blows up and becomes an obsession thing at the next time that comes around. It's like maybe it's like once it gets past whatever a hundred million dollars or whatever, then we start with receiving backend or royalty checks or something. I feel like there's probably a conversation we had there. But the question that I would have would be what if the movie tanked? If the movie tanked, do you pay back all the money that you made while you were working there and you work for free because the movie ended up losing a bunch of money. At the end of the day there's still somebody who took a massive risk on this and that would probably be the person who funded it first for the 750 grand for a first time director, but then also would Be the person who bought the distribution rights at the film festival for $15 million. It's like they bought a film for $15 million.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Not knowing what it would do at all. And took a massive. A massive risk, massive chance on that that ended up paying off. But if you look at whatever company that was that bought the distribution rights, if you look at the last 50 movies they've bought.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

What percentage of them have had that type of an outcome versus the opposite outcome? Like, it's just such a rare occurrence.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And so, like, the broader sentiment that I was. Some people online was more like this. Like, that's how it's always been. And you agreed to it up front and be like, be grateful that you got the opportunity to work on a film that ended up doing something like that.

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And now you have a huge, huge, awesome piece of awesome line on your resume that will allow you to book your next job and then be in a position where you can demand a much, much, much higher paycheck regardless of if that project does anything near what Obsession ended up doing. And that feels more correct to me in that. Especially in that industry where, like I said, it's like, it's a. It's a flip of the coin. You just have no idea what's. It's actually worse than a flip of a coin because it's much, much lower odds of 50, 50 for it to be able to do what it ended up doing.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Right.

[Travis]

And the only, like, the. The negative part to me about, like, making a big thing about it online is that you are going to signal to future crews or directors or producers that you might be a difficult person to deal with on set. And then you're sort of negating all of the positive press that you could have had from just being like, I worked on this film. Yeah. I didn't get what I wanted financially, but I worked on this film. And if you want me to work on your film, like, I don't do this. The laundry list of other things that I did for this. I am an art director. That's what I do. And if you want me to work on your film, here's my rate now, which is 10 times what it was when I was working on Obsession or whatever. Like, so many good, like, positive outcomes that can come from something amazing happening like that.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So to focus on the thing that is bad. And I understand the. I understand it's. It's almost like. It's almost like you went in on lottery tickets with a bunch of your friends.

[Eric]

I was literally going to say, it's like it would be how you'd feel handing your friend 20 bucks to play a slot. And they want a jackpot, right?

[Travis]

They want 100.

[Eric]

But even that's a little bit different because you put money. I don't know. I largely agree, Like, I read it and I feel, I felt like two ways I felt one, I never liked the thing of like, oh, it's always been like this. So be quiet and just deal with it. Because obviously there's things in the industry that have gone on a long time because people just go like, that's how it is, sweetheart. Get used to it.

[Travis]

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[Eric]

Yeah, that said, like, you know, and again, I've never made a movie, but it's like I know enough about that world to know, like, the money has to come from somewhere. And like, the goal with these projects is to put as much money on the screen as possible. And that does mean, like, what put this whole post in perspective for me is the art director made $6,741.36. The main star of the movie made $20,000. So you're telling me how much more should you have been paid up front? Which again, and Drew Garcia actually posted something about this. I think he deleted his post, but he's like, $300 a day is a great rate for pretty much any job. You're not getting paid peanuts and you're getting to do a movie. Like, I don't know, like, there's people that would kill to get 300 bucks a day.

[Travis]

There's a reason that you were working on an indie film with a $750,000

[Eric]

budget, but like I said, already working

[Travis]

on a major motion picture film studio.

[Eric]

And what puts in perspective again is the star of the movie made 20 grand. And so I saw a post today that was like, someone's like, oh, she got paid 20 grand for, you know, 28 days of filming and like one of the biggest movies a year. And they're like, yeah, look what she gets paid for her next project. Exactly like, like that' Careers work is like you do something with no money and then you get more money. If you do well, you get trusted

[Travis]

with more money the next time.

[Eric]

Right.

[Travis]

And so which, which, exactly, which is exactly what happened with Curry Barker. Yeah, Even on this film, like he filmed his own horror film that didn't get picked up anywhere and he just released it on YouTube by himself. And then because that did decent on YouTube, he was able to pitch this next one and then get it funded. Yeah, Only quote unquote, only $750,000. But it got funded and he got to make the movie and now it's crushed. And now it's like, hey, here's Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

[Eric]

Right.

[Travis]

Also got any other projects you're thinking,

[Eric]

and the other movie is already finished filming. Yeah, I, I looked at it and just went. And again, there's like nuance to this. But I just looked at him, went like, you know, who's going to be nervous to hire you as an art director when you're blessed? It's like, because, I mean, imagine you're Curry Barker reading and being like, I was getting paid peanuts too. And we were all trying to make this happen. And then you're going like, I got paid almost half of what the lead actress got paid. And you know, I don't know, that was weird to me. I do think there is a larger conversation to be had about back end points for Cruz that I think she's right about. And I feel like just the way she posted it felt so messy where I was like, this feels just ooh. But I do think there's a conversation about backends, which I can get into. But so India Navarretti, I think is how you pronounce it.

[Travis]

Yeah, she was like a streamer or something, right? You're talking about.

[Eric]

No, she was acting. She's actually in Superman and Lois, which is a pretty good show.

[Travis]

Oh, really?

[Eric]

And that's how I knew her. But an actress from the pit posted and said, I Feel like people don't understand the business expenses for this level of success. You pay for PR, which is usually 5,000amonth for three months. Each event you go to costs about 3 to 5,000 to pay for hair, makeup, and styling. If she's done three to five events, that's already a loss. So again, it's like, immediately, like, she didn't come out of this with tons of money.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Eric]

It's all, what's the next thing going to look like for you?

[Travis]

That's why I go to the question of, like, what happened? Like, if you also want this participation when the movie's a smash hit.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Are you also going to take a loss if the movie takes a loss?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

If the movie. If the movie gets bought for 15 million and only does 6 million, that's a $9 million loss.

[Eric]

You're returning paychecks. Yeah.

[Travis]

Do, like, do they get to claw back all the money that you made?

[Eric]

And that's almost every movie. Like, the movies that actually make money,

[Travis]

especially indie projects, is so small.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

The volume of indie projects, even with, like, massive stars.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know what I mean? Like, they never see the big screen ultimately.

[Eric]

So she. She doubled down. She said, I feel no obligation to clear any misunderstandings from my last post. More importantly, I hear your hurt. I'll shoulder it with you. What I posted struck a nerve. Not because it was a singular story being overlooked, but because this happens every day in and out of the film industry. I am actively speaking to Local 800, which is our union. I encourage you to reach out to your respective union, whether you're a member or not, to future where we can continue to make the art we love so much for years and years to come. And to those not in the industry, I see you, too. It's finally time to speak your truth. Do not be afraid. We face the powers that were together. I think there's something here that's from this story that's actionable, where it's like, how do I do think there's something to be said about. Actors get residuals, but the crew that was there for 16 hours with them doesn't. But also there's people that have to do that math of, like, well, how much money's left over when you give. Does craft services get paid residuals?

[Travis]

Well, I was gonna say because they bought a film for 15 million, but how much money did they put into marketing and promoting the movie after they bought it?

[Eric]

I think a lot.

[Travis]

You know what I mean? There's. They're taking on all of the risk, therefore, they get all of the upside. You have no risk. You got paid a day rate that you agreed on to do this thing. And if the movie only made $10 million, you would have been totally happy.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

With the money that you made. It's just that when the movie made a bunch of money, you go, I should have gotten a lot more.

[Eric]

Yeah. But the thing is, if a film producer knew this movie's definitely going to make this much money, it could have

[Travis]

been predatory if it was within their knowledge that it was going to happen.

[Eric]

Yeah. But also, the point is no one knows exactly, even with massive budgets. What was the movie I was just thinking about the other day where I was like, oh, this was so good. And it's. Well, different example. I'll just pull out of thin air. But when I was interviewing that director, YouTuber director that I had on recently, he was talking, I was asking, like, who do you think is, like an underrated artist working right now? He's like, oh. He's like, I just saw this movie and I can't remember the movie. But he's like, everybody's going crazy about Long Legs, you know, the horror movie. And it's like, you watch it and you're like, this guy's gonna blow up to, like, a different level. And you see movies like that. And he's like, it's so weird. Cause he's like, I saw a movie where I felt that. He's like, I was sitting in the theater and I was like, this guy's about to blow up. This is one of the best movies I've ever seen. He's like, and I never have anybody talk about it ever. And that's the thing is it's so unpredictable and there's so much risk. And most movies lose money, both through normal means of just the cost, and then also shady financing within the industry. I did want to say, though, there is a good example from someone who did do this in an interesting way. Are you familiar with Zendaya? I'm going to keep doing that now because people go, oh, are you familiar with Indiana Jones? Are you familiar with Zendaya?

[Travis]

I am, yeah.

[Eric]

Believe it or not, Zendaya is in my favorite movie of the year so far, the drama I highly recommend. Zendaya once gave her entire film crew at least 1% equity in her film Malcolm and Marie so they could earn a bonus after the film sold. The movie was sold to Netflix for an estimated $30 million. Each crew member made at least 300,000 bucks.

[Travis]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Eric]

See, but when I read that, this would be like me saying, I wish I, you know, I would have loved to be on the crew for that.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Knowing that now, you know what I mean? It's like, but how many of these movies get shot and then just disappear, you know, So I don't know. Most of them, I think my, my, like last, like, I don't know, it maybe this ties into like the common thing that we're just talking about on a previous episode. I also go back to some things just don't need to be shared.

[Travis]

Yeah, exactly.

[Eric]

Like, I just think there's a. Like, when I read the post, I feel like severe empathy because like, I would feel down in the dumps on that level to be like, oh man, this made that much money and I made seven grand. Yeah.

[Travis]

But my question is, would you though?

[Eric]

Well, that's my thing though is like, there'd be a part of me for a second that would feel that because it's like with anything, it's like when you work at a company and then the company sells and you're like, damn, I was here every day, you know. But I think the part of my brain that would kick in is like, how do I leverage this thing that I worked on and did a great job on? Her work is great. I saw the movie and I thought it was really well done in every regard. It's like, how do I leverage this? And I think even if she wanted to raise a conversation about back end points, I think she could have started that conversation easily by saying, hey, some productions have done this and here's what the math would have been and how it would have worked. And I think talking to the unions

[Travis]

should have been step one inside of the community of.

[Eric]

But again, like, I saw this post and I was like, again, I always lean toward like the strong empathy, like to an extreme where I was just like, oh, you're not gonna get hired for something after this.

[Travis]

Exactly.

[Eric]

Like, and I think that's unfortunate because

[Travis]

I don't think actively making it more difficult for somebody else to look at your work and go, that was awesome, let's get her.

[Eric]

Well, because immediately you're gonna go. It would be like if, you know, we've had times with clients that have not been good, but it's like, you don't go on and trash clients on a podcast because then you're putting out a message that like, the next time I have a bad experience with a client or perceive a bad experience of the client, like the client's going to go like, oh, he's going to trash me. I'm not going to even get into that mess, you know, And I, I don't know.

[Travis]

Yeah, just the, I think she could have handled it differently. The verbiage, even just like the second post, like speak your truth. And yeah, it's like you're, you're, you're, you're acting as if you are a victim here.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And like I said, and like, and like you said, if, if they had some sort of insider's knowledge to know that this movie was going to go crazy and it ended up being like predatory rates and they're asking people to volunteer time or whatever. It'. That's, that's one thing, but that's not what this was. This was a small budget indie film. That happens, you know. Like, how many indie films get made every year? Do you have any idea?

[Eric]

I don't know.

[Travis]

I mean, like ask Perplexity. So I'm curious to know what, what the number is because the, the volume. Like you're, you're playing this game. You are knowingly engaging in the rules of a game and then you're complaining about the results of the game that you're knowingly engaging in.

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[Eric]

and you could have skipped all of that to just say hey, maybe we should think about a point system for backend right at a certain threshold even, you know. But again, it's like it gets lost in the this is how much I was paid in the beginning. It's like, yeah, that seems like a fair rate, right? Like 300 bucks a day to turn

[Travis]

indie film on a $750,000 budget.

[Eric]

Like, I don't know.

[Travis]

Of course you're a line item that they want to try to get as close to zero as they can because they don't have any money. There's no money for the film. They can barely get the project done or made.

[Eric]

Okay, so there isn't an exact global count. Independent films can be anything from small festival features to fully self funded productions. Many are never publicly tracked. There's about 507 independent feature films produced in 2018 by Independent Production companies. It's for us and only for feature films. So this doesn't count short films or anything, but let's see, released outside studios, festivals. One study estimates about 1500 US feature films. A Harvard paper cites 863 indie films featured in 2019. So like hundreds of movies.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Eric]

And like we're talking about the one that you hear about.

[Travis]

I was gonna say name another one. You know what I mean? Like Dangerous. I was gonna say you might be able to because you're a cinephile, but like most people would not be able to. Which is the best name Any other

[Eric]

indie film I always say lately is the best of file to be. There should be many. There's a lot of files that you just don't want to be cinephiles.

[Travis]

Not associated within most of them.

[Eric]

But.

[Travis]

But yeah, I just felt like, I just feel like it. It sort of goes into that conversation we're having the other day about, you know, the, the decorating company that wasn't willing to do the work for this celebrity.

[Commercial Voice]

Oh yeah.

[Travis]

And then like replied with this snarky sarcastic response. Yeah, it sort of like gives that same energy to me where it's just like. Which again is like, I see kind of what you're saying here, but you're also.

[Eric]

But also just turn it down and don't say anything like, or also like with this case it's like Maybe it was 20 grueling days, but it's like a lot of people have done way worse grueling 20 days. And then they just go, I'm not going to do that type of thing anymore.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And they were like, that's, they were like, that's it. On top of a roof in Las Vegas, laying tiles. You know what I mean? Like, and getting paid less money to do that, you know, and it's like, well then. And then the developer got paid $12 million to. You know what I mean? Just like, I don't know what to Tell you, like, the person who takes the most risk gets the most reward. So if you want a bigger reward, take more risk, you know, like Curry Barker, I'm sure got taken care of

[Eric]

pretty well for that.

[Travis]

I don't know what type of money he made on that because I don't know how it works for Back End versus how much he made when the film was purchased for 15 million. But, but either way, I'm sure it wasn't as much. I bet, I bet you he got paid less than most people think that he got paid.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But I don't think he's worried about that. You know, I mean, he's like, ooh, what do I do next now?

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know, and I think the majority of people that worked on this project were all 20s, maybe, maybe early 30s. Like, you're the very.

[Eric]

There was nobody, I think I listened to one that said, there's nobody over 30. Yeah.

[Travis]

Like you're at the very beginning of your career.

[Eric]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Getting paid anything when you're 25 to be able to work on a, any sort of a film is like, oh, this is cool. And she willingly did it and enjoyed doing it. That's, that's my thing. And so like, if you're going to take to social and then like, do it in a way that's not going to blacklist you for future projects because now you're just, you're, you're, you're taking away the awesome potential that this has given you because you're trying to go back in time and fix something that literally can't be fixed. It's totally, wildly out of your control. So while I think that there should be maybe a conversation started around that about crew and cast and everybody getting a little bit of back end again beyond a certain earning threshold or something like that, like you said, maybe not the place to do it is just in a completely public setting because to me it just comes off as like complaining and victimhood versus being like, man, I am so grateful to have worked on this project. I only got paid this much. And I think maybe we should have a conversation about that. But, you know, really excited for the fu. For the future or whatever like that. That sort of goes into just younger people really trying to work on written and verbal communication skills in general because maybe, maybe what we're talking about, maybe that is more her sentiment than the way it came across. Yeah, but the way it comes across is much worse than should have spent

[Eric]

some money on pra.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Yeah.

[Eric]

Oh, yeah, yeah, it did. Yeah. I don't know, I, Yeah, I had mixed feelings of, like, I, I have sympathy, but also, I was like, you know, there's also layers to it where I was like, I just feel like you're shooting yourself. Like, this could be the greatest thing that ever happened literally to you.

[Travis]

It should be the greatest thing that ever happened to you.

[Eric]

But I don't know.

[Travis]

Anyway, I don't think anybody who worked on that project is going to be wondering where their next meal is.

[Eric]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Like, well, like I said, like, the main star is going to be. Yeah, I'm sure she's getting phone calls right now, you know.

[Travis]

Absolutely. And she should, she should. But, yeah, I guess take advantage of the opportunity that you're in. Be grateful for the things that happen when they go really well and then learn from it and see what you can do better the next time. But try not to put yourself in a position where there's just some things you don't say because it just, it is what it is. It's just going to, it's going to. It's going to affect people's perception of how you work, which will be in the con column as they're trying to decide who to hire for this next project, who to partner with for this next business or whatever. Like you said earlier, like saying bad stuff about a client or doing this other thing. It's like you might think that you are totally justified in saying so and quote, unquote, sharing your truth. Just know that you probably just told 12 other people who've been in business for a long time just go, hey, sometimes stuff goes south. You don't air out your dirty laundry on public social media channels. And if that's the type of person you are, I don't want to work with you because I don't know if everything's going to go perfectly when we work together. And I don't want to be on the other side of. I don't want to be on the receiving end of this, on the back end if something goes incorrect. But that was the question I always asked people who, like, invested in companies that didn't go well and then got mad at the founder or wanted their money back or something. And it's like, well, my question is, like, if the company did it very, very, very well, would that, Would the founder have been able to come back to you and say, you know what? I'm just going to give you one to one on your money. I know technically your ownership percentage entitles you to 12 to 1 because that's what we exited for. But, you know, the upside was just too good. So I'm just going to give you one on your money back. It's like, would you be okay with that happening? The answer is absolutely not. You would not be okay with that. So when it goes to zero, you can't demand that they give you one to one. That wasn't the original deal that you agreed to sign on to. Like, that's not how the risk of the project works. We shoulder the risk together. That's why we're in the project together. So, yeah, I don't know. It is a nuanced situation, but I

[Eric]

do think there's something, it would be cool for the studio or something to like kick back to people, like at a certain thread. Well, but like I said, there's ways to have that conversation that I think are just not that are more productive. Like, and a lot of the comments feel it's like, it's that it's me, you know, like, it's just, it's messy. It just feels messy. I guess that's, that's it. It's like, how do you, how do you leverage this?

[Travis]

But yeah, you don't. You don't. It's the sort of the definition of the bad apple spoils the whole bunch type of a thing. It's like you don't want to build a reputation for yourself as being the bad apple. Like you said, it's just messy. It may not be all the way bad and you may not even be able to explain why you shouldn't take too social and say stuff like this. You might not even be able to articulate it super clearly. It's just like it is what it is. It's messy and it's kind of gross and it's going to give people a negative perception of how you work and prevent them from hiring you for the next thing versus you using this as a springboard to launch you into an amazing career because you got lucky enough. Like there's people that have done this and they're 68 years old right now and they're still doing $300 day rates,

[Eric]

you know what I'm saying? Which is common film day rate for an ultra low budget film, which this was, is $249 a day. So she's making very fair. She wasn't making even less. But anyway. All right, well, anyway, I'm not getting paid $300 an hour to record this podcast, so I'm going to bounce.

[Travis]

Well, that's it for this episode. Of the show. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there. Here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time.

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