Co-host or Guest (1:31)

Yeah. So I'm just really not feeling that. But, but there's little snippets of things that I am interested in. Like Jen and Whitney on Dancing with the Stars. I was waiting and waiting, like, get into that totally. Because the whole season, you know, Whitney would do a live and she'd be talking, you know, throwing a little shade. Jen would be throwing a little shade. And you knew they were like supporting each other, but you knew behind the scenes, trouble was a bruin.

Travis (1:53)

Oh, yeah.

Co-host or Guest (1:53)

And they're starting to deliver some of the behind the scenes drama. And it sound like I'm being sardonic here, but I really was invested in this storyline and I needed to know what was happening.

Travis (2:04)

I know you, but there's a, there's

Co-host or Guest (2:05)

a piece of the storyline that I think is really interesting. If it wasn't for Disney's aggressive lawyers. I would show you the clip, but basically one of the things that shows up in the show is that Jen, who's one of the gals on Dancing with the Stars, her husband is a very Mormon, very controlling dude. I don't want to put that. You know what? I won't put that on Mormonism. There's a lot I can put on Mormonism. I'll just say, because some of the other guys are Mormons and they're sort of solid.

Travis (2:32)

What, like, like patriarchal.

Co-host or Guest (2:34)

He's just. He's a very, you know, guys that

Travis (2:37)

are like, the only way big is macho.

Co-host or Guest (2:40)

The only way I can be big is keep you small.

Travis (2:42)

Yeah.

Co-host or Guest (2:42)

You know, like, that's that kind of guy.

Travis (2:43)

Yeah.

Co-host or Guest (2:44)

So. So Jen is one of the gals on Dancing with Stars. Whitney is the other. Okay, Team Whitney, right?

Travis (2:51)

Sure. Is that what you.

Co-host or Guest (2:52)

That's who I voted for every episode.

Travis (2:54)

I'm opposite Jen.

Co-host or Guest (2:56)

Don't be. But anyway, so they're both on the show and there's a lot of dialogue in episode number seven of the show of the guys who grew up in very traditional Mormon households. And just culture in general is traditionally very patriarchal now being in the shadows, like being the stay at home dads. And so the episode is very much them grappling with this very hard for Zach, who's still very, very Mormon and is like, you know, I'm the one that should be leading the home and all this sort of stuff. And then there's Connor, who is Whitney's husband, who's very much like, you know, we'll talk about him a second, but very supportive and like, is accepting that role in a. In a huge way. So we hit record because we started talking about this. You started sharing thoughts. Yeah. And yeah, first and foremost, I think just approaching the conversation of, like, who does what in a relationship and like the way that there's like pressure to be one or the other. Like, how have you dealt with that over the years?

Travis (3:54)

Yeah, we definitely have had sort of like a push and pull, give and take type of a thing, because what. So obviously we grew up in a very similar fashion to what Mormonism would. Would be. Fundamentalist religious ideology. That's like the man is the leader of the home, the woman stays home type of a thing. And so when we came out of that sort of like early 20s, we. We were sort of exploring both of those concepts simultaneously. So I was, you know, at the very beginning, it was just me working and Jackie would work at the Church, but you know how that goes. You know what those types of paychecks look like. It's, it's almost adjacent to volunteer work in some ways. And then the, the older we got, the more she started getting more involved in, in her career and she ended up getting this really good job. It started off just being like an hourly executive assistant type role that was supposed to be temporary. It was, it was this, this woman's executive. She was the CEO. This one was the CEO of a, of a healthcare company in Central Valley in Fresno. And her EA was on maternity leave and so they were hiring somebody to take over for her during that time and they hired Jackie. And then basically Jackie crushed that role and this other girl ended up not coming back to work there. So they offered her the full time position of EA and that's like the first time that she got offered like a real salary, like actual, you know, pay for what she was doing. And both of us at the time were like, this is awesome. This is incredible. Now we have like two strong income sources, you know, and then it sort of started getting better and better from there. And then there are some other things, you know, her. When her dad ended up passing, we moved back to Lancaster. She gave up that job and then took some time off and things. And then this episode of the show is brought to you by Mars Men. So look guys, I don't know if everybody listening knows this, but a couple years ago I was diagnosed with cancer. And around that time I also noticed that my testosterone levels were dropping like crazy. And I know that some of it was due to the fact that my body was sort of in disarray. But then I also learned through this experience that most men start losing testosterone levels around the age of 30. And then it starts just getting worse and worse after that. About 1% every year after that. So what I learned during this is that basically your body makes testosterone, but a lot of it gets locked up and can't be used. So there's this protein called SHBG that basically handcuffs your testosterone. So even if your body's making testosterone, S H G S H B G locks it up so you can't access it. It's like having money in the bank, but your debit card doesn't work. So Mars Men is designed to help free locked testosterone so your body can actually use it. No synthetics, no needles, just real ingredients that help optimize energy focus and, and strength. And since I started taking stuff like this, I noticed increased physical performance, especially recovery in the gym, which As I am getting older I'm starting to realize is a real thing. I, I have to like stretch a lot more, I have to like take breaks more. I have to have rest days and things like that and and Marsman has helped me to be able to recover a little bit faster. Plus more consistent natural energy. It's different than having a cup of coffee or an energy drink or something. It's a steadier sense of drive throughout the entire day. It supports healthy T level energy and stamina with eight natural clinically dosed ingredients made in the USA and third party tested. Plus it's got a 30 day money back guarantee so there is absolutely no risk to you. Worst case you don't absolutely love it and you get your money back. But over 91 of users report higher energy levels. Thousands and thousands of guys are feeling incredible results from this. So just check out the reviews on the website to see for yourself. For a limited time our listeners get 50 off. That's 5050 off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts at men. Go to mars.com that's men free gotomars.com for 50% off and three free gifts. When you check out after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. Just please support our show and tell them that we sent you. That's mengotomars.com your little one grew three inches overnight.

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Travis (8:32)

Did executive assistant contracting work and then buddy of mine was doing private jet flight attending and I was like this seems like something that you would be really really good at. And it's flexible and high pay for daily rates. You get good tips obvious obviously on flights like that. So she ends up getting certified to be a private jet flight attendant. Flies some really cool people and. And then, but then she gets pregnant and it's like okay, well can't keep flying at eight months pregnant so had to take time off of that. And then with the kid it's like now it's almost impossible to do a job like that. And there are plenty of women who do that job. But it wasn't something that she wanted to do. She Wanted to be home with the, with the baby. So there's always been, it's always called for seasons for us in our marriage where it's been like, you go out and you know, do some work. I go out and I work a lot. And for a while it was like, it makes sense, right? Like, you know, we have two people contributing to the income and then what the difference is, I. This is what we're kind of talking about before we hit record was that I understand that this is not something that is an option for a lot of other people that are out there, but for us in particular, the what the decision that we've come to recently, and it was fairly recent actually we had this conversation probably like two, three months ago where I said sat her down was just like, I just wanted to make sure like do. Are, are, are your goals for your career really yours or were they sort of implanted by me because I was sort of pushing you to do that when we first got married and because we were challenging these sort of traditional, you know, Christian roles that, that we grew up with or are they things that you really want to accomplish? And, and her answer was basically like, I feel like I already accomplished a lot of those goals. Like she, when she quit her last job to open bowl store, she had a six figure salary. And that was always a big goal of her to earn of hers to earn six figures. So I was like, well, she, you, you crushed that goal and, and you did it. You know what I mean? Like what, what else is there left for you to achieve? And then it's sort of. And then in addition to that, how much time, even if you got another position like that, even like, you know, let's say we automate ever bull that we have a manager in place. You're. You're working 20 hours a month on that. Would you want to do something else? And she was like, no, not really because I enjoy being with the kids. And then it was, and then it was a realization for me recently where like last year I, because we had SBA debt for the Everbowl store and I was just like, I got to pay up, pay down some of these balances because I don't like having it. So I just went to work last year, picked up random side gigs, did some sales contractor work, did some other contracting work, some consulting work, some coaching work, in addition to the podcast, all the other things that we're working on. And it was like, oh, when I put my head down, I can make pretty good money, you know, and that's why I say this is not necessarily an option for everybody that's listening, but for us. We ended up having that conversation a few months ago where it was like, we've, we've come full circle now back to like the traditional sort of roles because that ends up working out better for us because we don't want, we don't want a daycare, raising our kids. That was sort of the discussion that we had where it was like we, we want somebody, one of us home with the kids as much as we can be and we'll use help from time to time. Of course, it's not like we don't, but, but it was, it was like, do you, should we continue doing the things that we've been doing for the last decade or should we a readjust? And I feel like now we're sort of in this readjustment period where we both accepted the, the idea that like she is better as the, as the person in charge of our home and I am better at earning income just flat out, bottom line, like I, that is a skill set that I have acquired over the last decade that is unlike her ability to go earn. Like, if she wanted to make more money, it was like, hopefully they'll give me a raise. Whereas for me it's like if I want to make more money, I just push a little bit harder, sell a few more things, come up with a new offer, do something, you know what I mean? Like, I ability to earn so far outweighs her ability to earn as it sits with our current skill sets. That just doesn't make sense for me to take a bunch of my time to be like cleaning the house or worried about dinner or getting the, picking up the kids from school or dropping them off. So it was sort of like, okay, well why don't we start transitioning that back into those sort of traditional roles where I need to focus on all of my stuff and then you focus mostly on the kids in the house and everything like that. And of course she still runs ever bowl and of course I still help with the kids and I still cook dinner a few nights a week and things like that. So it's still like a give and take to in some respect, but we've sort of landed at this like, and, and, and frankly, not only all of that, but there was, there was one thing I wasn't expecting when she started earning good money and I was forced to be at home with the kids because of that. Because at the time I, I took myself off salary for my company internally. I hired a president to come in and run a lot of operations and things like that. And I was paying him better than I ever paid myself. So it's a little like I could, I can't afford to pay him and pay me, so. But she's making good enough money right now where we can take a little bit of a respite there and. But I'm still working on this business. But then it's like during that time I was. This unexpected feeling arose in me and I started feeling like less useful as a man. And I don't know if that's insecurity or I don't know if that's just traditional gender roles or I don't know if that's just my biological desire to be a protector and a provider, but it was something that I was not expecting during that time where I just, I felt, I felt less, I don't know, less masculine, I suppose. And that was something that I had to grapple with internally to be like, I don't want to limit her capacity to fulfill her dreams if these are her dreams. But I also know that I am never going to be okay just being a stay at home dad. Like, that is not a role that I am going to feel good about myself doing. So it was good for a season because it allowed her to see that she did not need the income to make her feel like a better contributor in the relationship. And it was good for me to see, first of all, how much work goes into being a, like a stay at home mom or stay at home dad. You know what I mean? Like, there's a period of time where it was like, this is crazy amount of work. This is still a crazy amount of work. And the stakes are arguably higher because we're talking about the future of our children here. You know what I mean? So when we, when we both had that level of clarity that after she was sort of attacking this and I was attacking this and it was like, we're doing this almost for the sake of, of combating traditional gender roles, but at the detriment of our own financial success and, and happiness ultimately, because it's like she's happier being the mom, the wife and, and, and taking care of our household and I'm happier going out and, you know, hunting for prey. You know what I mean? What, you know, whatever that looks like. So we, we sort of have now come in a complete full circle direction and a lot of that's on me because I did not, I did verbally that it did not matter to me that like her financial contribution. While I appreciated it and it was cool to have this episode is brought

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Travis (16:13)

It was not something that I looked at as like, this is your value in our relationship and if you stop earning money, you will no longer be valuable and, or, or, or even not, not even necessarily no longer be valuable, but you'll be second place to me if I am the chief earner. And I think that's what a lot of people get wrong is that it's like whoever makes the most money is the one who makes the decisions all the time. And it's like, well, we're still a team and we still talk about our decisions. I think ultimately she still trusts me to be like the final authority, the final say on most things, just because that's how we've always worked and she just trusts me to do those things. She knows that if I take a big risk that I will also work my ass off to make sure it pays off in some sort of a way. And if it doesn't, then I'll also work my ass off to go do other things to make up for the risk that I took where it ended up being a big L. So she trusts me in that and then I trust her discretion with the kids and at home and stuff. So now I feel like we're, we're back on the same page. We're back into sort of these traditional roles and again, she still runs Ever bowl and still is a business owner herself and I still help out with the Kids. But it's no, it's not as fluid as it used to be. Now it's more like I have to do this. And by the way, since we've done that, everything has been better. You know what I mean? Like the, she's happier being in the role that she is. I'm happier being in the role that I am. And we're making more money than we did when we were, when it was two incomes coming, you know what I'm saying? So it's tough to say. That's why I say you just have to figure it out for your relationship and you have to be super honest and open and be willing to say the hard things out loud and have those difficult conversations so that you can figure out something that works for you. Because it's not going to be the same for everybody. And I can imagine in a scenario like this, and again, I know nothing about the context of serializing Mormon wives and all this stuff like that's going on, but it would, it would be tough, it would be tough as, as a man especially because I, I, I would assume that these guys are probably pretty high income earners themselves. They're probably not, you know, like mid tier management somewhere.

Co-host or Guest (18:08)

Yeah.

Travis (18:09)

But I would assume that they probably put a lot of work into their careers. What is my point is like they've put a lot of work in building skills and doing it the traditional way and then all of a sudden this black swan of an event happens where, where mom talk blows the up and now their wife is like famous and their earning power is eclipsing any ability that that man has to be able to go out earn them. That has to take a dig at your, your masculinity or at least your internal feeling of confidence. And so it would be hard to grapple with that. So have a little bit of empathy there. But also if I was in that position, I don't know exactly what I would do because if she theoretically had the ability to out earn me at the, at the level that some of these women are out earning their husbands, then I'd be like, well, I can't argue with that. You know what I mean? I, I feel like I would probably still want to be doing something in the, you know, financially to contribute at that point. But you know, when you can't compete with some of these things that these girls are doing, it, it'd be tough. It'd be tough. That's all I'm saying. And I think it's just, that's why I say like it just has to be worked out on an individual basis. But I do think that for. If we're speaking in very broad terms, that traditional roles probably make more. For more people in. At at large and again, in general, just because that's the way that it's always worked and the way doing something because that's the way it's always been done is never a good reason to do it. Which is why we went through this period of like, should we do it like that? Should we try this other way? And we tried a lot of other ways and then we came back to this sort of traditional way at the end of it. But you also. You also can't necessarily combat or fight the psychological evolution of human beings, which, you know, has historically been women are taking care of the home and men out there protecting and providing. And that's been true for tens of thousands of years. And that's what we've evolved to become as humans. So it's also really difficult to just combat that in a single generation of. Of, you know, human evolution. It's. It's almost impossible. Which is why I say, like, for a broad statement at. In general, it probably works better for most people where the wife will probably be happier taking care of the kids, being at home, and the husband will probably be happier being the protector and the provider and going out and earning the income. However, again, very nuanced conversation and there's a ton of different people where that would be the opposite. So you have to be willing to have the open, honest communication and be willing to say some of the quiet parts out loud in order to be able to find what's going to work best for you.

Co-host or Guest (20:37)

Yeah, well, and I think that's why the sprint thing is good. Like, we're going to do a sprint of this period, doing this and then readjusting based on what happens. Because, like, again, like the example you just gave, which I'm actually going to play these clips because there can be audio, I just realized. But it's one of the guys said something like, basically, like there's this gravitational pull around her career right now where it's like. It's one of those things where it goes like, yeah, I get Utah culture. I get like the religious culture side of it and then just social culture. But also it's like this first fella, it's like, you know, are you gonna go. For three months you've had to step out of your like, quote unquote traditional role because you got offered Dancing with the Stars and you're Making probably seven figures, I would guess at this point, while he's making maybe six, you know, and then the second guy was like a technical analyst, probably making six figures.

Travis (21:34)

Yeah.

Co-host or Guest (21:35)

You know, but she's on Dance with Stars, just landed a movie deal. Just to the. It's like, right. It's like, are you going to say, yeah. The value, I think that's the difference is, right. Is like for me, I always go, the person who's probably the best earner is going to be in that role,

Travis (21:50)

depending on who that is and probably should be in that.

Co-host or Guest (21:52)

Yeah. And you know, I think when you go into. Well, I'm, I have a, like the guys that go, like, I have a terrible salary. I don't, I'm not a great worker. I'm not all these things. But because I am a guy, that's my role. You know, it's like a lot of relationships struggle with that.

Travis (22:11)

Yeah. Because they feel like they should be.

Co-host or Guest (22:13)

I have to be the leader.

Travis (22:14)

Yeah.

Co-host or Guest (22:14)

The alpha of the pack.

Travis (22:15)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And. But in a lot of those settings too, like even a lot of the women that I know who are really high earners who I've like interviewed on the show and talked to about some of these things, things, a lot of them are still very much wanting a very masculine, alpha type energy in their life. You know what I mean? Even if, even if they are the chief earner as the woman, they want another. They want them freedom.

Co-host or Guest (22:39)

Travis, we got to free these people from this mindset. We have to free them.

Travis (22:42)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think. But it's a case so much of that. And it doesn't mean that you can't be a man. It just means that if you personally feel that that's going to be a problem for you, then it has to be addressed and talked about and you have to decide if you're okay with stepping back and taking that less than, you know, earning role or if that's enough of a detriment to you and what you feel like your purpose in life is where, where you might just have to say, okay, well, I'm super happy for you and I don't want to limit your capacity, but also I'm going to keep doing these things. So we have to figure out what that means. Does that mean we split up or does that mean we have to we bring in nanny to be with the kids more, somebody that we trust or something like that? Like, the nice thing about, about that conversation is at least there's a lot of potential possibilities that are afforded to you when you're making that type of income that would not be afforded to somebody else. When we're talking about like the difference between making like, oh well I was making 30 a year, now I'm making 70 a year. It's like, okay, well you don't still, you don't, you still have the ability to like have a live in au pair, you know what I mean? But when you're making a couple million a year, it's like, okay, well now we have the ability to make sure that our kids, maybe they get, they can, they can travel with us. We're going to homeschool them. We' to bring their tutor with us and they're going to travel with us while we do these events and while we do these things and while you're out here speaking at this thing or while you're doing Dancing with the Stars or whatever, we're going to make sure that we can still bring the kids around and they're not having to go through this traditional like school setting. Maybe we're going to homeschool them. Maybe we have this, you know, online thing that we're going to do. Like you, you just, you have to be willing to talk about it even when it's super uncomfortable because there's no other path to finding a resolution that's going to work for everybody.

Co-host or Guest (24:18)

No. Bottle it up.

Travis (24:21)

This actually ended up turning into a two part episode because we just kept talking and talking and we wouldn't shut up about it. So I think it's a really interesting conversation and really culturally relevant at this point. So we wanted to make sure that we pulled out this thread long enough. But so this is going to be part one. So if you listen to this episode, just know that we will continue this on a later episode.

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