CO-HOST | Make Money Through Transparency, Ethics, and Leadership

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Travis Makes Money

Episode: CO-HOST | Make Money Through Transparency, Ethics, and Leadership

Host: Travis Chappell
Guest: Eric, Producer
Date: February 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, host Travis Chappell and his co-host/producer Eric dive into a transparent and sometimes humorous discussion about financial ethics—specifically focusing on transparency in church finances and leadership. Prompted by a well-publicized online debate featuring the makers of the Religion Business documentary and the evangelical pastor/creator Ruslan KD, Travis and Eric analyze what true transparency means for nonprofit, faith-based organizations, and how it compares to expectations in the business world. The conversation opens up broader themes of ethical money management, the paradoxes of leadership positions, and the importance (and limits) of salary and budget transparency.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Transparency in Church & Nonprofit Finances

• Kickoff Discussion (01:00 – 02:45)

  • Churches and ministries are often caught between messaging that “money is bad” and the reality of constant fundraising and multimillion-dollar operations.
  • Travis shares personal insights from growing up in a mega church and reflects on the conflicting attitudes toward money:

    “Money’s bad. Don’t pursue money. Also, if you have money, we’re going to treat you like royalty… because you have the ability to fund this building by yourself.” (06:32)

• Defining a Mega Church (02:45 – 04:30)

  • A lighthearted moment as they confirm the technical definition of a mega church—a congregation averaging 2,000+ weekly—and riff on “small/medium” churches with playful references to cup sizes at Panda Express.

    “It’s like the cups at Panda Express. It’s either large, slightly less large, or… water cup.” (03:59)

• Perceived Value of Giving & Lack of Training (07:17 – 10:46)

  • Eric defends giving to churches providing real community value but expresses skepticism when additional fees are required for basic activities, despite tithing:

    “It gets really weird when it’s like, okay, I’m giving 10% of my income and I have to pay $260 to send my kid to a youth activity…” (07:49)

  • Both note that most pastors receive little to no formal financial management training yet regularly oversee budgets surpassing half a million dollars or more.

• Nonprofits & Mismanagement

  • Travis points out financial mismanagement and lack of impact occur in nonprofits broadly, not just churches:

    “There’s a high degree of corruption in all of those places and there’s a very small amount… that actually goes towards solving the problem they claim to be solving.” (10:44)

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The Viral Debate: How Transparent Should Churches Be?

• Clips from Ruslan KD & Nathan (Religion Business) (12:00 – 17:45)
  • The hot topic: Should churches, which are legally exempt from filing IRS Form 990, go out of their way to provide members with fully transparent financial reports?
  • Ruslan KD’s church provides a brief public budget overview (a pie chart of categories like “salaries” and “books”), but not a detailed breakdown or staff salaries.
  • Debate ensues over whether providing just a pie chart counts as real transparency, especially in light of questions like:

    Nathan: “What does Jeff Moores make?”
    Ruslan KD: “That’s none of your business.” (14:48)

  • Travis’s take:

    “It seems strange that you would not err on the side of transparency when you are a religious organization that’s collecting income from people… Why are you scouring the IRS code for ways to not be more transparent?” (16:26)

  • The hosts note that vague budget documents often hide more than they reveal and don’t address crucial questions like how reserve funds are used or how compensation is distributed.

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Salary Transparency & The Value of Leadership

• Should Pastors’ Salaries Be Public? (18:12 – 21:32)

  • Eric proposes that church members are “essentially co-owners” and might reasonably expect salary transparency, while Travis struggles with where to draw the line.

    “Should there be a cap on that? I don’t think so. But should there be more transparency? Probably.” (20:37)

  • Travis argues high compensation can be fair for leaders who build large-scale, complex organizations—but acknowledges the messaging becomes tricky when most in the congregation earn far less.

• Alternatives to the Mega Church Model (21:42 – 23:01)

  • Discussion on whether churches should remain small and local, leveraging technology for broader teaching while decentralizing expensive physical infrastructure.

    “Fractionalized congregations that allow you to continue to grow without this… unnecessary multimillion-dollar building that’s used twice a week and then sits open…” (22:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Transparency:

  “When you’re looking for reasons to be less transparent, it’s not a good look… from a nonprofit organization that coaxes people into giving them their money.” (17:35 – Travis)

• On Salary Paradox:

  “I do think that he should get paid well because he’s done something incredible. But also, it makes it more difficult to have the message of, like, give what you can… when you are economically doing that much better [than your congregation].” (20:57 – Travis)

• On Church Operations:

  “It was almost like that…do as I say, not as I do type of thing.” (05:54 – Travis)

• Humor Break:

  “We’re putting televisions in the baptistry. It’s gonna be… Everybody’s saying, oh, I want to watch TV in the baptistry! And now you can.” (25:42 – Eric, parodying church leadership logic)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Defining Mega Churches & Money Attitudes: 01:00–04:30
• Value of Church Giving & Lack of Financial Training: 07:17–10:46
• The Viral Budget Transparency Clip: 12:00–17:45
• Salary Transparency & Leadership Value: 18:12–21:32
• Should Churches Be Tax Exempt?/Final Thoughts: 24:43–26:25

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Tone, Takeaways & Conclusion

This episode blends thoughtful analysis with sharp wit and genuine curiosity. Travis and Eric challenge listeners to question common assumptions about nonprofits, financial leadership, and transparency—especially in faith-based environments. While both recognize the value of paying leaders well, they argue for significantly more open, honest reporting and community engagement around how money is raised and spent. The hosts tease future collaborations and leave listeners reminded that money’s real use should be to solve problems—starting with those closest to home.

“Money only solves your money problems, but it’s easier to solve the rest of problems with money in the bank. So let’s solve that one first…” (26:25 – Travis, closing)

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This summary captures all substantial discussions and memorable moments, providing a resource for listeners interested in the intersections of ethics, money, and leadership—whether within churches, nonprofits, or business.

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by GoHighLevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet. Just go to gohighlevel.com travis. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast. What's our mission to help you make more money? Today on the show, my producer Eric is here and has pulled up some juicy clips to react to.

[B]

I just wanted to do something juicy.

[A]

I understand.

[B]

No, I wanted to pull up a clip of this. How do you say his name? Nathan Caffel.

[A]

I don't know how to say it.

[B]

He. It's the guy behind the documentary Religion Business streaming on Amazon prime right now. You can go check out every episode. But there was a pastor creator named Ruslan kd. I watch a lot of Ruslan's content. I'm gonna be honest with you because it's very well produced. And do I agree with most of what he says? No.

[A]

I'm going to guess take a stab in the dark.

[B]

But it's very well produced and he, he curates some really interesting conversations and, but anyway, they, they were kind of beefing for a minute, talking about their, their finances and they actually pulled up their financial reporting. And I want to get your take as someone who's like in the business world and has come from the church world. Like what constitutes like financial transparency and ethical finances within ministry versus kind of the business world. Sometimes there's shady stuff in the church world, sometimes there's shady stuff in the business world. Whether you're talking everybody from Kenneth Copeland in the church world to Jeremiah the Bull Evans in the business world, some people are getting a little freaky deaky with the finances. A little shady, you know what I'm saying? So first and foremost, I mean, your experience in the back, I mean, what was money in the church world? What did that look like to you, your perception of it early on?

[A]

Yeah, there's two conflicting ideals I felt like that I got growing up, which was the message that was preached was very anti. Money was very much like money is a bad master and don't pursue money and God will provide for you. Don't worry about all the other things. Just take, you know, do the thing that you're supposed to be doing. The, the money you know, will follow. Don't ever pursue money. And that was what was being told to us. And then the other side of it was that the church was constantly raising money for all of the things that churches Raise money for. And we went to. I mean, it's a mega church really, for. I don't know, is there a definition, like a past a thousand people or something?

[B]

Actually, technical definition. Really weird that you're saying this right now because I just googled this like last week and I think it's over a thousand. Is a member church a memo? Mama.

[A]

What's a memory?

[B]

What's the, what's what defines. Or what constitutes a megachurch? Let's, let's do it again. Because I, I was, I labeled someone a mega church pastor. And then I was like, yeah, yeah, because that's the stupid stuff that you would get sued over.

[A]

No, it's not a mega church.

[B]

I'm not a megachurch pastor. So here's what constitutes a mega church. Church. A mega church is a congregation that averages at least 2,000 people in weekly worship attendance. So you attended a mega church?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So it was a mega church. And there was, you know, plenty of examples of that. Meaning that the church was constantly raising money for these multi million dollar buildings that they were expanding the campus with.

[B]

What was I in?

[A]

If you were in a megachurch, a minor church.

[B]

What's a term for a church with under 250 people? Most people just call that small.

[A]

Is that what it said?

[B]

It said most people would simply call a congregation under 250 people small or a mid sized church?

[A]

Small or mid size.

[B]

It's either small or medium.

[A]

That's hilarious.

[B]

It's like the cups at Panda Express. It's either large, slightly less large, or slightly less large.

[A]

Or water cup.

[B]

Yeah. Or kids water cup with no lid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good luck.

[A]

That is one of the most egregious parts of our culture, to be honest, is the size of water cups.

[B]

Oh, they meant pandas.

[A]

Oh, no, not, not panda in particular. Just like anywhere you go, they're like, you could have this Mega Big Gulp for a buck 29 that you can fill with a gallon of sugar water. And then you're like, I'll just take a water cup. And they're like, cool, here's a gulp. Like, stand by the water machine because you're gonna have to refill it every time you take a drink.

[B]

Have you ever seen the. It. It was a limited time back in the day. Have you ever seen the KFC Mega Jug?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Dude, I used to tear up the mega jug.

[A]

What did you put in high school?

[B]

Mountain Dew, bro. Full sugar. What is that? It had. Oh, and I forgot it had the little handle. Yeah, so you could carry it like a Lunch pail full of rocks around. That is insane.

[A]

A gallon of sugar water.

[B]

Well, have you seen the new one that they have?

[A]

Crazy. That reminds me of the Parks and Rec.

[B]

Have you seen their soda bags? Now, dude, soda bag. I ordered one of these and I felt so disgusted with myself. It's like having an IV bag of soda. This is their new abomination.

[A]

That is crazy.

[B]

Like, it literally looks like a catheter bag.

[A]

It looks like something you'd carry gravy in, which probably also carries gravy.

[B]

That's what I ordered. Dan Grogan's House of Gravy. See, it's a thing. Anyway, so you were in a mega church. They talked about money in this way, but also there was a ton of money flowing through.

[A]

But then, yeah, but then when it was time to raise money, then all of a sudden it was like, we're telling you that money is not important. But then any sign of money walking onto this campus, everybody drops everything and turns 100% of their attention to this person who has a bunch of money because they need the money to make the operation go forward. So it was, it was almost like that, you know, do as I say, not as I do type of a thing where they would actively discourage, like, young people like me who were growing up at the church. It was like, well, you know, when I was, when I was implying that I might not be eager to be in a in full time ministry position somewhere, the immediate response was like, well, you got to give up your dreams of money and just go into ministry. But then once you're actually out there making good money and away from the church, then it's like, oh, well, come back into the fold and don't forget your 10%. Plus be here for our giving banquet and everything else. And also the 10% is a baseline, but we also have missionaries that need support on a monthly basis and we also have this building program that we're giving to and we have this other thing that we got to fund. So it was like, money's bad. Don't pursue money. Also, if you have money, we're going to treat you like royalty on this campus. And like you're better than everybody else because you have the ability to fund this building by yourself.

[B]

Which also. Can I just say this? Can I give a hot take?

[A]

What's that?

[B]

As the host of the Preach Wise podcast and someone who is accused often of just hating all churches, I am a defender of giving to your church financially if it is resulting in benefits to you and your family and the rest of the congregation and community. Because, like, I look at giving to the church the same way I do. Like, giving to the government is like. It's weird when you see your dollars going to everything but right here.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think that's one of the things. Like, I love churches for the community. Now, again, a community where you don't have to be an exact replica of everybody to be able to stay in that community, but it's a whole nother conversation. I love the idea of community. I love the idea of being a hub for people to come meet. I think that's something that's missing when you do step outside of that world and it's hard to replicate. And I love the idea of, like, all putting our money into this one thing to do good. But then for me, it gets really weird when it's like, okay, I'm giving 10% of my income and I have to pay $260 to send my kid to a youth activity. You know what I mean? Like, to me, it's like all those funds should kind of just go back to. And now we can put on this event for the teens of the community or we can, you know, like, that's the part for me that gets a little bit funky. Funky.

[A]

Because there's absolutely zero training for pastors on how to manage finances.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They go to Bible college and learn about the Bible, but then they go into ministry and it's all of a sudden like, you're in charge of this entity that's generating a half a million dollars a year and.

[B]

Or more.

[A]

Yeah, in a lot of cases, much more than that. And you're just like, sort of handed the keys because you're. You're the leader now. It's like, well, you've never. Like, I, like, I. I've seen mismanagement of funds happen all the time in the business world constantly. And these are people who are technically supposed to know how to do that stuff, you know what I mean?

[B]

But also sometimes less educated than even a pastor on how to handle the finances.

[A]

Yeah, but, but so when you put somebody into this other context where it's like they have no training and then they don't. They didn't earn the position. I want to be careful. I say that because that's not obviously a blanket statement. Sometimes it is that way. But a lot of times it's like, hey, we need a pastor. You got a Bible college degree, even though it was unaccredited, like, you are now qualified to come be our pastor. And then it's like, here's the finances go. You know, it's like, well, what are the odds that they're going to figure it out when they've had zero training, they have no background in finance, they don't know how to read a PNL or a spreadsheet or any of those things. And then all of a sudden you had you give them the keys of the kingdom and it's like we expect them just to know how to do stuff. And then it's, and then it's at that time that's when it becomes sort of like a, a value hierarchy where now you're concerned about putting the seventh flat screen TV in the lobby instead of actually using that money to impact the community or something like that. The shuffling of priorities and it's like the complete lack of transparency is where I have a problem. But this wouldn't necessarily just be churches to me. This would be most non profit. Yeah, there's a high degree of corruption in all of those places and there's a very small amount of the total funding that actually goes towards solving the problem that they claim to be solving.

[B]

Well, let me ask on the transparency and I've, I know you've watched this clip and I have watched this clip, but I don't actually know your thoughts on it because the big debate and I mean they talked for Holy smokes like three hours and 30 minutes.

[A]

Yeah. And the context too is that. Nathan.

[C]

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[A]

is not anti church and like he is a self proclaimed.

[B]

He's anti the religion.

[A]

He's Anti mega church. Yeah, the. The Business of Religion.

[B]

Do a documentary called that. And so you've got a pastor. So you've got Nathan, who's. Who's exposing, like, church financial cr.

[E]

Which.

[B]

Some of this stuff is crazy financial abuse. Like, Kenneth Copeland has a jet that's listed as a property to write off the tax. It's like, weird stuff like this. And then you've got Ruslan, who's like. I would say you're pretty run of the mill evangelical pastor.

[A]

That's like community church.

[B]

Hey, man, this is great. And, like, we should do this and. But they get into a conversation about transparency. I kind of know what I think, but I'm curious to see what you think on this. Oh, it's. It's. It's in 2x speed and muted, which is probably not.

[A]

This is really how you want to watch.

[B]

Which is really how you want to watch them. Here we go.

[E]

Creation of church. Okay. But this is the byproduct of separation of church and state. The revival capital of the world, which is Kenneth Copeland scam. Which is straight.

[B]

I don't.

[F]

I don't like Kenneth Copeland. You're pointing out people. I did.

[E]

I agree with you on Rhythm Church's annual. Oh, yeah, I brought you.

[B]

That's. I will say I do. Like, that about Rosalan is like. Even when he's. Even when I disagree, he doesn't. He. My biggest beef with people. I was just chatting with an apologist a couple months ago on the phone, and I would say something, and he would repeat back what I said incorrectly and add three things to it to, like, defend the position.

[A]

So what you're saying is like.

[B]

Like, he'd be like, he'd be. He said. He literally said. He's like. So you would say you're left leaning. I said, yeah, I would say I'm left Lane. He's like, so what do you love most? Killing babies. Like, went down. I was like, bro, like, just.

[A]

What are we doing that we're not having a conversation?

[B]

Yeah, what are we doing? But Rosalon, for better, for worse, will just go like, hey, here it is. And I think this is right. Here's why. And here's the ensuing conversation.

[F]

You can see it.

[E]

So let's go through this. This is because you don't file 990s.

[F]

We don't file 990s.

[E]

You do.

[F]

We do not file 990s.

[E]

Cool. So this is a 60, 56 or 64 page document.

[F]

There's this. I marked it for you where you

[E]

could see it's two pages.

[F]

Two pages. Okay, so, so, so, so look at our giving statement. Read it out loud, please.

[E]

Your giving statement, not our budget.

[F]

There's our annual budget right there.

[E]

No, this is your expense expenses.

[F]

That's our annual budget. 1.2 million.

[E]

Yes.

[F]

Okay, so read through it. What do we spend?

[E]

I have. I have it printed out, marked. What's your revenue?

[F]

1.2 million.

[E]

No, this is your expenses.

[F]

That's our overall gross that came in for last year, 1.2 million.

[E]

So you spend every dollar that comes in.

[F]

So this year we have 400k in reserves and we have 2 million that's coming in this year. Yes, I know, I know, I know.

[A]

My.

[F]

I know.

[E]

My church is not a financial report, though.

[B]

Yeah. This is what we.

[F]

This is what we provide to our church of what comes in. So read it.

[E]

I've read it. What does Jeff Moores make?

[F]

I know what Jeff Moores make.

[E]

So what does he make?

[F]

That's none of your business.

[E]

Is that part of the 444,000 in salary or is it different?

[F]

No, no, no, it is.

[E]

You have 15 staff.

[F]

We have 15 staff.

[E]

And you.

[F]

We live in Southern California, the most expensive city in the country.

[E]

So you pay $444,000 in income and benefits for 15.

[F]

I don't.

[B]

I don't.

[F]

I think they do benefits on their own. I believe they do benefits earmarked. No, no, no, no. The benefits. I don't. I think we can do benefits on our own.

[E]

But there's also salaries for Rhythm Church employees as well as employee benefits are tucked into that.

[F]

Yeah, so there's some benefits, but I. I don't know what they.

[B]

It's also. When I heard that I got out the calculator and divided that equally, I was like, oh shoot. Someone's either getting paid really. PO had like the opposite, where I

[A]

was like, means one person makes a quarter million, Everybody else makes 10.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

We recently had this conversation.

[E]

Yeah.

[F]

So there you go. So that. That's our budget.

[E]

So see, and I brought it for you.

[F]

This. That's available for any single person that watches.

[E]

I have it printed out right here. But here's the problem. If you don't file an i90, you said 1.2 million in expenses.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[E]

Is that your actual revenue?

[F]

Our revenue? I just told you the revenue.

[E]

No, but that's.

[F]

This is what I just told you.

[E]

The 990 is a legal document. Data fields that are. That are.

[F]

And I could read you.

[E]

Why this is just loose. You can.

[F]

I can read you why the government right here. The federal government loses. Let me pull this out. The federal government does not require churches to file a 990 because it's a. It's a separation of church and state. That is why we don't file them. Purpose 9 annual 990 is an information return that most tax ex. Exemptions have to do. Churches opt out under the IRS, 633 churches, their integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations explicitly.

[A]

It's like, while I understand that you can defend that position, it seems strange that you would not err on the side of transparency when you are a religious organization that's collecting income from people. Like. Like, why are you. Why are you scouring the IRS code for ways to not be more transparent, if that makes sense? Like, sure, technically you don't have to, but also, like, if you want to be above board. And that's where I agree with Nathan on this, where it's like, 1.2 million in income. Like. Like something's not adding up here. And the reason it's not adding up is because this isn't an actual, like, P and L. It's not a real financial report. It's just numbers put onto a pie chart to make the people in the audience feel like their money is going to something, but they're obviously not spending. If they have 400k in reserves, they're not spending $1.2 million on $1.2 million in revenue, which is sort of like his. His, you know, point here is to say that, like, if this is your expense, if you're spending $1.2 million and this is your budget for the year, you have to make more than 1.2 million. What's. Where's the delta going? Is that all reserves? Is there bonuses being paid? Like, there's just. There's. It's just, to me, a lack of transparency. It's like, we're not. Where is the money actually going? And I don't know, to be fair, I don't know anything about the inner workings of Ruslan's church.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, maybe.

[A]

Maybe they are above board in a lot of these things, and maybe everybody's happy to be given what they're given. And maybe there's not any sort of, like, accusations of wrongdoing, in which case, like, maybe you don't have to, like, print out a copy of your P and L for everybody to see. But like I said to me, it's just, like, when you're looking for reasons to be less transparent, it's not a Good look to me from a nonprofit organization that coaxes people into giving them their money.

[B]

Do you think, I'm curious, on the salary thing, do you think that like if you're going to a church and you're giving 10% of your income to the church, which is most churches, you're doing that, Would you want to know what the pastor's making? Like, what do you think about the whole salary transparency conversation where it's like, like he says, what does this guy on the staff make that's a pastor? And he goes, it's none of your business. Right. But like there is also part of me that goes like kind of my business more than it is. Like if someone goes to your ever bowl store, they buy a bowl, right. That doesn't mean that they get to like know, but if someone's making you. Right.

[A]

But, but it's because we're selling a product.

[B]

But if you're like, if you're co. Like essentially a congregation is like a co owner of this thing that we're all doing as a community. But also it's none of my business what each staff member is getting paid or like if the pastor like in that number, that's very broad. The pastor could be making 90% of that and everyone else could be making whatever the. Yeah. Less than the legal threshold in some places. Right. So what's your take on that?

[A]

That's a tough one for me because I do believe in getting paid for the value that you bring. So. So like my, my home church is a good example of this with, with Pastor Chapel because, because he came to

[B]

Lancaster to give him everything, give him fair.

[A]

Like you decided to come.

[B]

It's like you decided winning Survivor, a

[A]

nice part of Northern California to come to Lancaster to take over a church of 12 people. And then because you outworked everybody else in.

[B]

You know who else, you know who else went to the desert with 12 people?

[A]

No, who?

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Oh my gosh. The correlations don't stop.

[B]

I think that's exactly what they saw.

[A]

There's not much, but yeah, like he put in the work and then built a church with thousands of members with multiple multi million dollar buildings. Definitionally, he should get paid well for doing that thing because it's an, it's an impossible thing that he was capable of doing and he should get compensated according to the value that he's added to the lives of the people that like just the staff alone there is like 400 people. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's a real Organization. And it takes somebody who's highly skilled in leadership and in casting a vision and in sales and persuasion and all these other things in order to be able to build an organization of that size and actually have it function properly. So it's like, should there be a cap on that? I don't think so. But should there be more transparency? Probably, you know what I mean? But I also, I also like, for a church of that size, too, you start getting into, you know, probably the majority of people that go to that church make less money than the pastor does. Yet it's still within his quote, unquote, calling to make sure that everybody at the church gives to the church which funds his salary. But does he not deserve a good salary like that? It's very, it's a very, like, abstract area for me because I'm not 100 sure what to believe about it. Because, like, I, I do think that he should get paid well because he's done something incredible. But also it makes it more difficult to have the message of, like, give what you can and everybody should give when you are economically doing that much

[B]

better, working at nine nights and only store in Lancaster, you know?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I, I, I generally don't have, like, a good answer for that. I, I, I just am mostly against the idea of mega churches at this point.

[B]

Well, and that, that's my thing too, is like, maybe they just shouldn't be so big right where they cost. Cause, like, I was, I was having that conversation with a friend of mine who's a pastor in the Bay Area, and he was getting ready to build, like, a big building project. And I was like, I was like, it seems, I just said, it seems weird to me in the era of social media and like. Cause I basically said, if your community can be your small groups that can meet in publicly available locations anywhere in the city, and your role as a pastor is to get a message out. Like, your model should look a lot more like this podcaster.

[A]

Democratized access.

[B]

I'm gonna sit here, I'm gonna do my weekly sermon radio show that I put out on a podcast. And then I have my local body where we assemble in locations, and once we get too big for those locations, we split off into other things. And then he said, you're atheist scum. Don't talk to me. And he blocked me. No, but, but I was like, that seems to be more the move.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I'm from, like, that's my feeling. Oh, my God. We have a $6 million mortgage over our head.

[A]

Fractionalized congregations that like allow you to continue to grow without this. Without unnecessary. Well, multi million dollar building that's used twice. Yeah.

[B]

A week and then sits open where like a pastor goes in, unlocks the door, locks it, goes. Works in his office for. You know, there's just. So. There's so many other things or what. Whatever. But anyway, I'll play a little bit more because I know we got to wrap up soon because I don't want you to miss it. Burn through an interview schedule here.

[F]

But zimp from 990. This is in a loophole. It's written into the federal government. Now. I want you to think about this. Nathan, there's 300,000 hair.

[B]

Everybody that does this kind of stuff. I relate. Nathan, you have periods where your hair just goes nuts. And you're just like, I don't understand any of this. What are you doing? You're just looking through pages and pages of documents, just ripping your churches that, that are.

[F]

That are around 300,000 churches. If you were. If, if, if all those churches.

[E]

Closer to 400,000.

[F]

Okay. 400,000 three to 400,000. If they were all to file the 990. They would overload the IRS system, which is already wildly inefficient. I'm so the IRS.

[E]

There is 1.9 million organizations registered with the IRS.

[B]

Yeah.

[F]

And add another 400,000.

[E]

So somehow that overloads.

[F]

Yes. On top of the smaller churches.

[E]

You submit it via electronic form on

[F]

top of the smaller churches.

[B]

That is silly. Silly, Silly argument.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't. That's just silly.

[F]

The same access to accounting and budgeting

[E]

reason for not filing a 990s.

[F]

My reason is because the Supreme Court has ruled that the state must keep hands off internal governance of religious. Religious bodies according to Hosanna tuber in 2020 12. Okay. That is why it'll be in my.

[E]

By my laptop.

[F]

Okay. So the reason churches existed long before the tax system so they are recognized

[E]

as tax system was around before then, but it was refining.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

Tax system.

[F]

Yeah. We didn't have federal taxes until 19,

[B]

so I know we only have like four minutes left.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's get into just a really, just really quick conversation piece. It won't take us long at all. Should churches be tax exempt? Just go ahead and give me all your discourse on this. No, just. No, I. Yeah, I was, I was curious to take on this clip. And he. I love, I love. I thought it was going to pop up sooner. I love when he just pops up the thing and it's A pie chart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, this is just a pie chart with numbers on it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and it was like, no, that's a financial document. And there was a good little rift.

[A]

It's a 62 page thing. And then there's one page with just like, a pretty little pie chart that says, like, super vague financial expense categories.

[B]

It's like salaries, books.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But anyway.

[A]

All right, overall. Overall, it's just like, I just want to see more transparency. Even when I was still going to church, like, that's when I stopped giving. Was when. Was when they were giving the little speech about what the money's gonna go to. And I was just like, I don't. I don't feel like we need to do any of this stuff. Like, we're talking about renovations.

[B]

We're putting TVs in the baptistry. Waterproof TVs.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

They're gonna be huge.

[A]

Immediately stepped back into Trump.

[B]

We're putting televisions in the baptistry. It's gonna be the next. Everybody's saying, oh, I want to watch TV in the Baptist tree. And now you can. But anyway, no, I was curious to take on. You know what would be fun? I'm gonna say it here now.

[A]

What?

[B]

It would be fun to do some crossover preacher boys episodes. Travis makes Money, where you react to pastor's financial discourse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On the show.

[A]

That'd be great.

[B]

And we do a collab post. Yeah, that might be actually good.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

You don't like the idea? It's fine.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

It's fine. Let's just go ahead and get this done with. Just go and close out the episode, and then just take me outside behind your house and shoot me. That would feel better than what you just did. All right, go ahead and wrap it up.

[A]

All right, well, that's it for this episode. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of problems of money in the bank. So let's solve that one first here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time. Peace.