CO-HOST | Make Money Without Getting Spiritually Hustled

Summary

Travis Makes Money — Episode Summary

Episode Title: CO-HOST | Make Money Without Getting Spiritually Hustled
Host: Travis Chappell
Co-host/Guest: Eric (Show Producer)
Date: August 9, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this insightful and candid episode, host Travis Chappell is joined in-studio by his producer Eric for a deep dive into the intersection of money, spirituality, and the problematic (and sometimes predatory) ways that religious institutions approach tithing and financial giving. The conversation moves from light-hearted banter about personal podcasting nerves to a thorough, honest critique of manipulative financial teachings often encountered within church environments.

Their discussion broadens beyond traditional advice, using specific preacher clips as case studies, to highlight how spiritual messaging can be distorted to pressure people—sometimes those least able to give—into donations that may benefit leaders and organizations rather than the vulnerable population. The episode questions the logic, ethics, and Biblical justification of these teachings, advocating instead for financial stewardship, balanced generosity, and the protection of individuals from manipulative spiritual “hustles.”

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Navigating Heavy Topics

• [00:14–01:46]
  • Eric expresses nervousness about suggesting this topic due to his show’s focus on heavy issues in religion and his concern about “cross-contaminating” Travis’ clean brand.
  • Both hosts openly discuss the personal risks (like death threats) that come with tackling controversial church topics.

2. Homeless Ministry & Tithing: Outrage Over Priorities

• [02:12–03:33]
  • Eric brings up a tweet by Pastor Mark Butler celebrating his congregation for teaching the homeless to tithe 10% of their income.
  • Travis reacts:

    “That’s a wild take, man.” (Travis, 03:25)

  • Eric sarcastically references the idea that 10% is “the basement, not the ceiling,” expressing astonishment at pressuring the homeless to give.

3. The Arbitrary Nature of Church Rules & The Self-Interest of Leadership

• [03:50–05:53]
  • Travis questions why tithing is the “one” Old Testament rule that persists, while others are dismissed.

    “You can’t just pick and choose…what works out better for you to preach from the pulpit.” (Travis, 04:29)

  • Eric notes that religious rules often favor those in power—pointing to both Christian and Islamic traditions—suggesting cultural and gender bias.

4. Case Studies in Tithing Manipulation

a. Pastor Bill Rees: Pay The Preacher First

• [06:44–08:06]
  • Clip played featuring Pastor Bill Rees’ belief that the church’s first obligation is to pay the pastor, even before keeping the lights on.

    “The church’s obligation is to pay the pastor first, pay the bills second. Without a pastor, you have no church. It’s that simple.” (Pastor Bill Rees, 07:35)

  • Travis and Eric react with a mix of incredulity and humor, relating the attitude back to their own church experiences.

b. CT Townsend: The “Windows of Heaven” Closed Over Unpaid Tithes

• [17:31–20:31, 26:43–32:04]
  • A clip is played of evangelist CT Townsend claiming that if you don’t tithe first (even ahead of bills), you’re closing the “windows of heaven” to God’s blessings and protection.

    “If I don’t give it, the Bible calls me a God robber...I want you to pour out a blessing on my family...So Lord, I give.” (CT Townsend, 17:51/20:12)

  • Travis calls out the implicit threat that God withholds blessings/protection unless you pay, likening it to “mafia-coded” protection racketeering:

    “This is such a mafia-coded thing, like extortion in exchange for protection.” (Travis, 21:14)

  • They both highlight how preachers often benefit from these teachings, while parishioners—especially vulnerable ones, like single parents—may suffer.

5. Issues with Interpretive, Self-Serving Preaching

• [13:36–15:17]
  • Travis critiques the shifting definitions of what constitutes “the church”—sometimes it’s the people, other times the building, depending on which best supports the pastor’s point.
  • He expresses preference for expository, context-based preaching rather than cherry-picked, topical messaging designed to justify financial asks.

    “It’s no different than you’re at the bar...and you go to Google and...look for the article that agrees with you.” (Travis, 14:32)

6. Community, Confirmation Bias, and Misattributed Rewards

• [21:28–23:13]
  • The hosts discuss how church giving often creates an insular economic system where the church bolsters donor businesses, which is then attributed as divine blessing rather than simple community networking (“It’s the church operating as a multi-level marketing company…”).

7. Real-Life Impact: Harm to the Vulnerable

• [31:59–32:12]
  • The message to prioritize tithes over basic needs has damaging effects, especially on the financially vulnerable:

    “If I'm a single mom in that service...that is such a predatory message to give.” (Eric, 32:04)

  • It’s pointed out that church teachings sometimes result in people not being able to pay bills, only to wind up seeking help from the very church that pressured their giving—a self-defeating cycle.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On self-serving church rules:

  “Why is that the one part of the Old Testament that...carries over?...You can’t just pick and choose what...works for you to preach from the pulpit.” (Travis, 04:29)

• On mafia vibes:

  “You have to give me 10%...in exchange I’ll protect you...from the devil or whatever.” (Travis, 21:14)

• On manipulative illustrations:

  “This is the craziest Mr. Rogers episode I’ve ever seen...a very interesting adult Blue’s Clues.” (Eric, 27:38/27:44)

• On harm to actual churchgoers:

  “That is such a predatory message to give...‘Don’t pay your light bill this month’...then who helps those people in times of need?” (Eric, 32:04)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:14–01:46 – Navigating heavy/controversial topics in religious podcasting
• 02:12–03:33 – Outrage over homeless being taught to tithe
• 06:44–08:06 – Playing “pay the preacher first” sermon clip
• 17:31–20:31 – The “windows of heaven closed” tithing illustration (CT Townsend clip)
• 13:36–15:17 – Critique of interpretive vs. expository preaching
• 21:14–23:13 – Comparison to MLMs & confirmation bias around tithing “blessings”
• 31:59–32:12 – Real life impact on vulnerable members & predatory messaging

---

Final Ranking: Most to Least Harmful Financial Advice

[33:19–34:12]

1. Worst: Telling the homeless to give 10% of their money (f-tier advice)
2. Second worst: Instructing people to tithe before paying bills, implying God will withhold blessing/protection otherwise
3. Bad but less offensive: Teaching that the pastor’s paycheck should come before all other church expenses

---

Closing Tone & Takeaways

The episode maintains a conversational, sometimes irreverent tone while dealing with weighty topics. Travis and Eric balance humor and empathy, seeking to empower listeners to make wise decisions with their money, rather than succumbing to manipulative spiritual messaging. The underlying message is clear: you can honor your values and faith without falling prey to shame, guilt, or spiritual financial hustle.

---

Quote to Close:

“Money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got money in the bank. So let's start there.” (Travis, 34:33)

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to the Travis Makes Money Podcast. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money Podcast, where it's a mission to help you make more money on this episode of the show. My producer, Eric is here with me in studio. What's up, man?

[B]

Hey.

[A]

What's going on?

[C]

Not that much.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

No, I told you I was very nervous to suggest this.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know why.

[C]

Okay. But can I. Can I be honest?

[A]

What in our history makes you think that I'm going to be like, this is a terrible.

[C]

There's always a first time. It's like when you have a dog. Like, I know at some point the dog could bite me, you know? So you gotta always be a little careful. No, honestly, I always. I feel like you're so squeaky clean with your branding, and I feel like I'm in the kind of shady. I deal with the shady underworld, and so. And I'm always like, so whenever I go, I feel like I should give context because I'm just. This is off the rails already. I host a podcast where I talk about mental, physical, and sexual abuse in religious environments. You don't do that, but you do talk about money, which is what people are listening to right now. And sometimes money conversations come up in the church realm, and I go, oh, I'd love to talk to Travis about that, but I'm always like, I don't want you to do it because we're friends. And you're like, yeah, I'll do it. But. But I also think, like, oh, it'd be mutually beneficial to just share that discussion.

[A]

Something that we both have experience in.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I always. But I always get nervous with people because I'm like, I know I. I deal with heavy stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I know people also, like, I've told you, like, people have sent me, like, death threats before and stuff. So then it's like, a weird thing to be like, hey, you want to do that too?

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[C]

So if you don't want to do this, we can stop right now.

[A]

No, I'm good. Let's do it.

[C]

Okay, cool. Well, the other day, I did a episode by myself because I was too scared to ask you then. I'm just kidding. I did it because I wanted to. I did an episode on tithing, and I was like, there's so much more that I didn't put in the episode, and I wanted to share some of them with you and just get your response. First and foremost, what do you think about ministries to the homeless?

[A]

In general?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's like one of the core callings of the church, I think, from.

[C]

What would you know about it?

[A]

It's the fatherless and the widows, but, you know, that's a good overlap of the homeless.

[C]

Do you like when people minister to the homeless?

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Why not?

[C]

So there was a tweet. This is a couple years ago, but I. I rethought about this tweet in light of my tithing episode. There's a pastor named Mark Butler and he pastors Saguaro Hills Baptist Church in Arizona. And he posted a clip of their homeless ministry. I'm like, oh, sick. This is the caption. Okay, so what do you guess they taught the homeless about?

[A]

Oh, gosh, working.

[C]

No, it'd be less offensive.

[A]

Finances.

[C]

He said, what a joy. This is a tweet. This is back when it was a tweet in 2021. What a joy. Serving with the chapel on wheels volunteers. So they have a bus out there by the homeless, teaching the homeless to tithe. 10% of their increase to the Lord. Command for all.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

What do you think about that? You like that?

[A]

That's a wild take, man.

[C]

I think they should give more. I think 10. As Mark Driscoll says, 10% is the basement, not the ceiling.

[D]

That's right.

[C]

So I think give 100%. I really just picture a pastor giving a dollar and then waiting for change. Yeah. Like, can I have a dollar? Yes. But 10 cents of that goes back to me. Yeah, that's a pretty wild one. Psalm.

[A]

Yeah, that's the overall attitude, though, that's in that world is like, this is a command, and if you want to be close to God, you will do this thing. And that, that's ultimately why a lot of religion doesn't make sense to me because it's a lot of just made up stuff that's arbitrary rules that other people are telling you to do. And sometimes those arbitrary rules benefit the person who's telling you to do them.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like you can't even be completely unbiased in this advice. Not to mention, why is that the one part of the Old Testament that that's a we? It's.

[C]

That carries over. Yeah.

[A]

That like, you know, everything else is Jesus came to fulfill the law. So they're talking about sacrificing their bullocks on the third whatever of every month. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, well, we don't have to do that anymore. Jesus came to fulfill the law. And I was like, that 10% thing was in Malachi, if we're going twas. You can't just pick and choose. You know what you want to, like, what works out better for you to preach from the pulpit. Like, if you're going to say this is the mission, then, then be all in on that. You know what I mean?

[C]

Well, and the thing is, there's certain principles that I don't necessarily have an issue with. Like I've said before, when we talk about giving, like, if you have a cause you care about or you're part of a community that you care about, I think saying, yeah, I'm gonna give 10% is great. That's what you wanna do. But I did an episode recently and I shared a clip from a New Testament scholar I interviewed. And he was talking about when verses are used to benefit the ministry first and foremost and not the people in vulnerable positions. Like, it raises an eye. And that's kind of how I feel with this stuff. It's kind of the same thing when people go. When you go into extreme fundamentalist Christian environments or you examine a religion like Islam and you're like, hmm, women are covered head to toe and have tons of rules. Guys are in jeans and T shirts and have far less rules. I wonder if a dude's responsible for a lot of this teaching. It's kind of like, I wonder if

[A]

that was rooted in the way that culture was around the time that this book was authored.

[C]

Right. And speaking of self interested pastors, I think this clip kind of points directly into that.

[A]

Are there self interested pastors?

[C]

There's some. There are some. But this is Pastor Bill Rees. The first episode I ever did of the show was about this guy.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

But this is his exhortation to people about giving. That's a good word, huh?

[E]

That's a good one.

[C]

Exhortation.

[B]

We're not serious about our finances anymore.

[C]

Oh, man. See, I hate doing this. I do this all the time. And Tara gets so upset because I listen to everything at 2x.

[A]

I do too.

[C]

And every time I go to show a clip, I get upset. It's at 2x.

[A]

Doesn't make me upset. The only thing that we talked about on this show is like, if somebody's listening to the show at 2x, it's 4x. This is 4x. This sounds like a bunch of marbled nonsense.

[C]

Yeah, it's the Alvin and the Chipmunks album. All right, so one X. Here we go.

[B]

We're not serious about our finances anymore. We ought to get serious about our finances.

[C]

So far, it just sounds like you.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say, listen, I'm on board so far.

[B]

Actually, preacher, it's a sad day that. Listen to me. It's a sad day when the church dies because people don't tithe, but yet doesn't seem like they're losing any weight. They're eating just fine, but God's church is whittling away and starving.

[C]

Tell me about the point he started losing you, so you were on board for the first four seconds. So if you had to draw a

[B]

line, probably we ought to get serious about our finances.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

It's a sad day that. Listen to me. It's a sad day when the church dies because people don't tithe, but yet doesn't seem like they're losing any weight.

[A]

Well, hang on a second.

[B]

They're eating just fine, but God's church is whittling away.

[A]

Seems like they prioritize food because the

[B]

bills can't get paid. You know, I've always said this. The church's obligation is to pay the pastor first, pay the bills second. Without a pastor, you have no church. It's that simple. If you do not have a shepherd, there isn't a flock. There's scattered sheep.

[A]

Amen.

[B]

So I've always said the world doesn't like this, but you pay your preacher first. Anything left over, then you can turn the lights on. But, you know, I could preach in the dark. I don't need the microphones. We don't need the technology.

[E]

We can let a rip.

[B]

Tater chip. We could preach outside if we have to. We've got a tent. Are you listening? Don't crack your knuckles. Are you listening?

[A]

Stop chewing that gum.

[C]

That's the stuff that takes me back, that. That slams me right back into the pew. Like the little random. The craziest is when you'd have, like, an evangelist in who would feel comfortable calling people out for going to the bathroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Hey.

[C]

Hey, I'm preaching.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[C]

You don't need to go to the bathroom. Right.

[A]

You know, I'm actually a grown man, so I'm gonna.

[C]

I do need to go to the bathroom. If they did that at movie. Like, the thing is, it's not personal. I do that at movie theaters. I was sprinting to the bathroom, doing the Odyssey. The difference is I sprinted back to the Odyssey. I walked slowly back into.

[A]

I remember doing it so many times.

[C]

Kind of lingering. A bulletin.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Let me look at this prayer card real quick.

[A]

Hope there's somebody in the bathroom that you can talk to.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There was the youth pastor.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, he was.

[C]

You have to punch and run anyway.

[B]

Got a tent. Are you listening? Don't crack your knuckles. Are you listening? I don't. I don't. I can preach the Bible and don't need all this fufu.

[A]

It's interesting that it's still there.

[B]

Is what you put in your coffee fufu? This is all fufu.

[E]

This is fluff.

[B]

Real men drink a blood grace.

[C]

Oh, man. This guy is you. This is dark Travis.

[A]

That's me. If I just stayed on that path.

[C]

I drink my coffee black.

[D]

This episode of the show is brought to you by Whatnot. So I was scrolling on Whatnot because I really. I just wanted to see what it was about. And I started experiencing what I can only describe as like a social media shopping channel. But it's live shopping. You gotta go try it out.

[A]

Okay?

[D]

Because it's not just for the buyers. It's also for the sellers. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform where, whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies, sellers are building real thriving businesses. Anybody can sell. Whether your business is big, small, or yet to exist, people selling on whatnot sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. 10 times more. That's because you're not just listing products. You're building real connections with actual buyers. Across Whatnot, the number of sellers making over $1 million a year has doubled. Consistency pays off. It's not just a side hustle. It's a real path to building something that lasts. Whatnot buyers spend more than an hour a day in the app, which is crazy. They're not just browsing and searching for content. They're engaged, they're buying, and they're coming back. You go live, show off products in real time, and then turn what you love into real income. I went on there the other day just shopping around, looking for some stuff tuned into a live stream. Ended up with a couple of shirts, and I love them. And you get this sort of live demonstration, and you get to ask questions about the product and how does it feel and what's the fit and all those types of things. You can get answered live so you can make sure that you're making a better decision, even as a buyer. So search Whatnot. W h a t N o t in the app store, download it, and you can start selling right away. Okay, here's something my younger self would have benefited from, because, let's be honest, most of us just picked a bank at 16 and then never looked back. Sound familiar? Well, that's where Chime comes in. Because Chime is changing the way that people bank. They're not like traditional stuffy old banks who charge fees and gatekeep perks and rewards and all that stuff. Chime offers the most rewarding fee, free banking. All with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, no minimum balance fees. Plus you get 5% cash back on Chime card in a category of choice like gas or groceries. All while building credit through regular everyday spending with absolutely no credit check. You can also grow your money faster with their savings rate. That's nine times the national average. Let me say that again. Nine times the national average for their savings accounts. And if you're ever in a pinch, Spotme lets you overdraft up to 200 fee free. So join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com travis that's chime.com travis. Sign up now because it only takes a few minutes. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chimes Bank Partners. Qualifying direct deposits required terms of limits apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

[C]

But honestly there's, there's layers of this. Like this is basically my group chat with you and Jackie is lose weight, get your finances in order and also bring me a black coffee from Starbucks. Yeah, stop cracking your knuckles.

[A]

It's also, it's funny to me to like say we don't need all this other stuff while you have all that other stuff.

[C]

Right?

[A]

You know, like that, that you have

[C]

a gold encrusted baptismal. That is glory in the church.

[A]

It's the weird thing to me about that world, man. Like I haven't fully formed a complete opinion about it because frankly I just don't spend the time thinking about it that I need to, to have that opinion.

[C]

What a weird way to say you don't listen to my show, that's fine.

[A]

But I, I just am unsure about the, like we're giving money to get a prettier building. Yeah, like, well, like what you just said, like you can preach in the tent, you have a phone, you can broadcast it live on Facebook for free. Like I like. Yeah, so it's just sort of like if you want to give your money to places, fine. But also with the pastor saying something like that, like, well, who decides what the pastor should get paid?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like if, if the church is dying, should you not be willing to take A massive cut in your salary to make sure that the church can keep going and that the mission is supported.

[C]

But also what the church is switches definitions depending on what the topic. Like, it's like, we don't have a church if you don't give. And then in other contexts, it's, you're the church, the people at church building. Doesn't matter where two or three are gathered, you know, and it's like you can't have the shifting description of what it is.

[A]

It's a million ways to die in the west when they're in the church service and the preacher like says something and he goes. And that's just exactly like that part in the Bible that applies to this situation.

[C]

Let me find that real quick about

[A]

that so much because that's exactly. It's cherry picking the things that you want to happen and then claiming that they're directly from God versus, like, you know, that. That's, that's why I was a bigger fan at that time of like expository preaching, of just like going through books and, and whatever that lesson happens to be this week is based on what we're going through at the moment. But this like, topical preaching style where they just, they're thinking about something, so they're going to go find stuff in the Bible to support. It's no different than you're at the bar with your buddies and you're both arguing about something and then one of you goes to Google and then looks for the article that agrees with you, even though the first three search results prove you wrong. You know what I mean? It's like, well, check this out. And it's like you're on page nine of Google right now. Like, how far did you have to scroll?

[C]

Please tell me how I can prove this is the case.

[A]

Exactly. Which you always can. Because that's the thing about. That's the thing that we disagree on in terms of the volume of truth that exists in the universe. It's like people like that tend to think that all truth is absolute and there's no relative truth. And that is my opinion, is that it's completely the opposite.

[C]

I'll have to find that clip and insert it because that is a perfect example.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay, I gotta show one more. And I already know people are gonna be mad. And I promise I just found this and it was this person. So I did a post about CT Townsend, an evangelist, and I don't know if it's because now I talked to him, so now I see more of his stuff. But I was just looking again. I go on YouTube and I'm like, you know, giving. You know, I'm like, let me find some clips relevant to this. And CT Townsend popped up and I know people are going to go, you're on a mission to get C T Townsend. You're going to destroy him. Yeah, no, that's not what I'm doing. But I'm going to be honest, the reason I haven't watched much of him is because he always just came off as goofy to me. I hope that's not too offensive to the Townsend heads out there. But he just always gives me that goofy televangelist vibe that I just like, I just don't take it seriously. But this particular clip that he did on tithing very much points to that. It's what we talked about the other day with like the. That Paul Chappell clip where it's like, I wouldn't worry about a savings account for my future. God has my future. The first thing I give goes to the church. And it's like, that feels like a big weight to put on people to be like, I can't pay my bills. But let's go into this. And a lot of it to me, looking at the Independent Baptist world, a lot of it to me is so weird because when you look up examples of manipulation and giving, you get Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar and all that, and all those guys IFB pastors would preach against and be like, that's prosperity gospel. It's you sow a seed and you get something back. But this feels like that to me. So I just wanted you to watch it and see if I'm cuckoo bananas for thinking this is a little crazy bonanza. I'm in 2x and muted, which is the ideal.

[A]

That's how we like to be fair.

[C]

Watching CT Townsend is like watching Ben Shapiro. You don't know if it's in 2x or if it's just him. You know, here's the.

[E]

Here's the old volume there in front of me. I want you to notice behind me, the windows of heaven are closed.

[C]

Okay?

[E]

But I messed up now because I done sat through the first sermon of Stewardship month. And I know that a tiThe means a tenth and a tenth means 10% of everything I make belongs to God and not to me. And if I don't give it, the Bible calls me a God robber.

[A]

Go ahead.

[E]

And so I got a decision to make.

[C]

Can I. Did you ever yell out anything in church? Did you ever go, come on?

[A]

Yeah, you did? Wow. Well, big church. Not as much, really. When I was in college.

[C]

You did it in kids church?

[A]

Yeah. Well, like chapel, high school chapel, stuff like that. Youth group, for sure. Yeah. We definitely annoyed. You know who it was? It was Josh, who, when I was in. When we were in junior high, was like, this is how you know if you want to be as Christian leader or whatever. Like, you people want to see that people are paying attention, and the person speaking wants to hear feedback that you're understanding what's going on. And this is a really good thing to do. So the high schoolers hated us. We were like the 8th graders in all of secondary chapel, which is 7th through 12th grade. And we were like, that's good.

[C]

Park it right there.

[A]

Amen.

[C]

All right, so in this example, the doors, the windows of heaven are closed. Okay. God's blessing is not upon you, but, you know, you got to give your 10% here.

[E]

Keep living with the windows of heaven closed. Or do I want to. Amen. Or do I want to live with the windows of heaven open?

[C]

That's her money in his hand. Yeah, that's literally. He's like, hey, man, this is yours, Shirley.

[B]

Here we go.

[E]

So I take. Come on, y'.

[C]

All.

[E]

If I got 10 $100 bills, how many is the tithe? So you're telling me that God only wants this, but I get to live with all of this?

[A]

Well, the government is gonna need about two or three of those as well.

[C]

True, true.

[A]

I'm not there yet.

[E]

So I can either live with the windows closed, which, as long as it's in my hand, it's closed. But watch this. As soon as I put what belongs to God there.

[C]

How do they do that? That actually spooked me a little bit. The first I watched, I saw the hands, and it was very evil dead coated.

[E]

You say people don't do that. The reason we have bags that are deep like this is because we have seen people trying to make change in the offering plate. I promise you, we've got video evidence. That's why we went to these things. And let me just say, you are in real trouble with God if you do that. So I make up my mind. I want the windows of heaven.

[A]

Thou shalt not make change in the offering.

[E]

God. God, I don't have 100% trust right now, but I want to. I want the windows of heaven open in my life. I want you to pour out a blessing on my family. I want you to rebuke the devourer for my family's sake. So Lord, I give.

[A]

I don't know if it's just because I'm watching through Tulsa King right now, but this is such a like mafia coded thing, like extortion in exchange for protection, you know what I mean? You have to give me 10%.

[C]

You like those shop windows.

[A]

But in exchange I'll protect you, you know, from the devil or whatever. Like, it feels so. It's so strange to me. Like, looking back on it, it's like you're, you're telling me that like a relational, loving God is going to withhold protection from his children if they don't pay him money, right. In order to have that protection. Like, that's just like, it's the humanizing way of looking at something that we don't understand.

[C]

Right? And it's like you have to put yourself in a precarious position sometimes to. And he even says here in a second, like, he may not even reciprocate. In which case, like, it's like, which of these things is it? You know?

[A]

But yeah, well, and then it, then it feeds into the confirmation bias because you have like members of a church who are giving 10% and then they have a business and the church uses them for all their business. And then in their mind they're like, well, that's God directly rewarding our giving efforts. And it's like, like, no, it's the church operating as a multi level marketing company. Like, they take money from you, they give you business through their network of potential clientele. And then you chalk it up to like, God's returning me tenfold in the money because I made this commission on this thing that I did, or I did this business deal with some other person in the church. And I wouldn't have had that, I wouldn't been blessed that way had I not done this. And it's like, no, the pastor knows that you give 10% of everything that you make. So of course, like he wants to pad your pockets.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? And so like, and again, I'm not even like villainizing it or vilifying it. Like community matters. And like, it's the same as a mastermind group, a business mastermind group, right up into. You pay the money, you get into

[C]

the group you invest in to level

[A]

up and they happen to have a problem that you can help solve. And yeah, you're investing yourself, you're leveling up. You're like, you know, like, I'm not vilifying any of that. It's just when they, when they take it and Turn it into this, like, magical fairy dust moment where, you know, you hear the story of, like, the youth pastor who can't preach, put food on his table, but. But gives his last, you know, money because it was the tide to the church or this offering or this building fund or this missionary whatever. And then it's like. And then the next day we had a bag of groceries dropped off on our front door. And it was. God said, you know, it was like, that was just a person in the church that had some money because they're 68, was like, hey, this young family who I love and care about doesn't have food.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm gonna give them some food.

[C]

But also could have had food. Yeah, yeah. It's just a weird. It's a weird snake eating its tail kind of thing.

[D]

This episode of the show is brought to you by Lisa. I've made a lot of upgrades for my health in recent years. Those of you who listen to the show know this about me. You know, new tracking, tech, fitness equipment, things that were designed to really improve my overall daily life. But none of them have had the impact that my Leesa mattress has. The difference in how my body feels cannot be overstated. I actually wake up well rested, comfortable, ready for the day. No more of that low back pain that I was getting for some reason with my other mattress. It's genuinely improved my quality of life in a way that I wasn't expecting, which makes sense because sleep is like the most important thing that we can get. It is like the best drug on the planet. Lisa has a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep. Each mattress is designed with specific sleep positions and feel preferences in mind. From night one, you'll feel the difference. Premium materials that deliver serious comfort and full body support no matter how you sleep. Just take the Leesa sleep quiz and you'll find your perfect match in two minutes or less. Plus, Leesa mattresses are meticulously designed and assembled in the USA for exceptional quality. And they back it all up with free shipping, easy returns, and 120 night sleep trial. So you literally have nothing to lose. It's been awarded best hybrid and best memory foam mattresses by New York Times Wirecutter and is Featured by West Elm as their go to mattress partner. So go to Leesa.com for 25% off, plus get an extra 50 off with promo code TMM exclusive for my listeners of the show. You're welcome. That's L E-E-S-A.com promo code TMM for 25% off plus an extra $50 off. And when you use our code, that means you're supporting our show. So go use it and go get a new mattress. Lisa.com L E E S A.com promo code TMM okay, here's something my younger self would have benefited from because let's be honest, most of us just picked the bank at 16 and then never looked back. Sound familiar? Well, that's where Chime comes in. Because Chime is changing the way that people bank. They're not like traditional stuffy who charge fees and gatekeep perks and rewards and all that stuff. Chime offers the most rewarding fee, free banking. All with no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, no minimum balance fees. Plus you get 5% cash back on Chime card and a category of choice like gas or groceries, all while building credit through regular everyday spending with absolutely no credit check. You can also grow your money faster with their savings rate. That's nine times the national average. Let me say that again. Nine times the national average for their savings accounts. And if you're ever in a pinch, spot me lets you overdraft up to 200 fee free. So join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com travis that's chime.com travis. Sign up now because it only takes a few minutes. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required terms of limits apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details.

[C]

You know, oh, also I just realized full circle moment we talked about the Scott Gray and the money disappearing from his church and his family leaving. This is the church that they went to.

[A]

Oh really?

[C]

And his son is now working on staff here.

[A]

No way.

[C]

His son the doordash.

[A]

Wait, so he's an advanced Cedi Townsend.

[C]

He pastors this church. Yeah, Gotcha. But yeah, one of the Gray sons who also left the church. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well if some people get mad because they have cool music now and stuff. Yeah, he, he's from that world. He went to Pensacola. Then he went and took over this big Baptist church that was super tied to Lee Roberson and all this stuff, it's gotcha.

[E]

Let's, let's try this again and let's add to the equation.

[C]

We got nine minutes, but we got time for this one illustration.

[E]

Another week. And I did not give for God to give back. I gave in obedience to his word. And I gave with this in my mind that if God never blesses me again, I'm going to keep being obedient to his word.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

He just weighs back.

[E]

Yeah, I'm faithful. I work hard. It's another week. I sit down on my couch at the house and direct deposit. I look on my phone and Mr. Boss comes back again. Praise God. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I'm trying to enjoy my 10 crisp $100 bills. And here comes the mailman and the mail says that I have a bill that is due.

[C]

This is the craziest Mr. Rogers episode I've ever seen. Like, this is a, this is a

[A]

very interesting adult Blue's Clues.

[C]

Right.

[E]

I just started this whole.

[C]

Can you say bill? It is weird to me. I'm being honest and I'm trying not to be like too cynical, but I do sometimes go, you guys got up, got your entire family ready to go. Watch this. You guys waited in line to get into us.

[A]

The crazy ones. To me as an adult now looking back on it, is the Wednesday nights crazy that our parents like went to work all day, came and it was a little bit, a little bit easier for someone.

[C]

My parents went to work all day at the same place.

[A]

Yeah, true. But for my dad's a little different because he dressed professionally. Like he was a real estate guy. So he was always in a, you know, suit and tie or a collared shirt or something. So it's not like he had to come home change. But like I had friends whose parents are like blue collar workers, you know what I mean?

[C]

That would rush in their uniform hours a week to get there.

[A]

Yeah. But then you're looked down on if up in a uniform, you know, like you got to go home, you got to shower and shave.

[C]

And half of Wednesday night, was everybody going unspoken? Yeah, Unspoken for a request, wondering how

[E]

am I going to pay a $400 bill and tithe and have enough money to make me a 98 cent box of macaroni and cheese with a couple of sliced up hot dogs in the middle. Y' all know that's good right there. Hey, how am I going?

[A]

That'll preach right there. That we can agree on.

[E]

And on top of that, it's Sunday again and guess who's here. And so now I gotta make up my mind, am I going to pay my bill?

[C]

Yes.

[E]

Come here, Mr. Bill Man. That's the boss man. You're the bill man.

[B]

Come here.

[E]

So if I make the decision, I'm going to pay my bill first. Then windows don't put that in your pocket. Then windows stay closed.

[A]

See this.

[C]

That's crazy. This is where crazy brother.

[A]

I was gonna say, like, it's not only in terms of illustrative message. Like, he's. This is a. Like he's doing a good job. Like, he's a good communicator, obviously. And if you believe everything that he's saying, then. And if you're. Even if you're listening to this right now or watch this right now, you might be totally on board. But right there is where he lost me. Even from that perspective, where it's like that. This is where you're taking. You're.

[C]

You're.

[A]

You're taking something that the Bible says and then interpreting it for your entire congregation as something that I personally believe.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Even if I were still in that world, I would go, like, that doesn't make any sense.

[C]

Well, it also, like, again, even if you want to argue, because that's the thing is, like, we could get sidetracked forever, which would be irrelevant for either of us to do because nobody would listen to our takes on the biblical teaching of tithing.

[E]

Right.

[C]

But I just go. Even if you want to go, is tithing still for today and all this stuff. There's so much you could argue as far as, like, being a steward or being. Like, there's so many biblical principles that override something like this.

[A]

Where to suggest that the windows of heaven are closed because you paid your bill. Paid a bill is also due for a service that you agreed to pay. Like. Like you were contractually obligated.

[C]

Yeah. Like that seems way worse.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[C]

But, brother, you're contractually obligated to the Lord. See, I could do both sides of that all day long, but I thought this was crazy.

[E]

Early in the year, we talked about time. We talked about bringing God your first.

[C]

That was the point. That was the part, though, where I go whenever you say, like, before your bills, before anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

To me, that's. That's where you cross into this territory. I'm like, I don't like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

To me, that feels like I said,

[A]

it's a liberal interpretation of what it

[C]

actually says especially, too. And I hate to say it like, it's people preaching it for the most part. Like, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I don't think CT Townsend has had to eat macaroni and hot dogs for at least the last 10 years. You know what I mean? And not to say he never had those times and never gave in A way that led him to those times.

[A]

And not to say that people who build big organizations don't deserve to get

[C]

paid well for their leadership. Not saying any of that, but to me, that's the other thing, too. Is like, you're asking if I'm a single mom in that service. To me, that is such a predatory message to give. Is like, you want God to bless you and your family and your kids. And it's like, well, don't pay your light bill this month. Exactly. Which, again, it defeats the purpose even of the church's interest. Who helps those people in times of need where it's like, okay, she gets her electric bill and she doesn't pay it, and then her lights are shut off, and then now there's a fee to reset up her electric, and who's she gonna go to the church? So even then, the church is going and putting more money to go help solve this problem. If they are depending on the church, it's just like, yeah, that's the stuff to me that I think is absolutely kooky. So how do you rate all this financial advice? On a tier list of bad to worse financial advice, where would you rank? Pay the pastor before the church bills, pay the pastor before your own bills, and if you're homeless, give 10% of all your money. Which of those do you think is the worst piece of advice versus the best?

[A]

I'm gonna go homeless is number one.

[C]

The homeless should give 10%. That's the best advice.

[A]

No, that's the worst.

[C]

Okay, that's the worst. Yeah, that's f tier advice.

[A]

Advice. That's number one. Number two, I'm gonna go with that one. With what he just said about paying your bills after and not worrying about them. And it's really just the illustration is where he lost me. It's like, God, the loving God of the universe, is not going to bless you or protect you from Satan now.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Because you paid your light bill. Like, yeah, that blows my mind.

[C]

But, Travis, do you need your lights when you have the light? Okay, sorry, sorry. I'm done. Okay, what's the last one?

[A]

And then the last one would be the paying the preacher first. Yeah, that one.

[C]

You could almost argue that one the most.

[A]

Like, of course the pastor's going to prioritize their paycheck, but with the first money into the church.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they also need to live. Which begs the question, should you be full time? But that's a whole different discussion.

[C]

See you next episode. All right, well, thank you for doing this with me. I know that I had to really twist your arm to make this happen. And I know you're really resistant, hardcore pitching. I appreciate you doing that. We're done right on time. And you can go into your interview that you have scheduled right now.

[E]

Perfect.

[A]

Well, that's it for this episode of the show. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got money in the bank. So let's start there, here on the

[D]

Travis Makes Money podcast.

[A]

Catch you next time. Peace.