B (1:41)

All right, here's the clip though. I want you to give your take on it here.

C (1:45)

Nobody ever said, dude, you drank an entire bottle of vodka last night. That was awesome. Nobody ever said that. Right. But you worked nine 16 hour days.

B (1:53)

He works at a college anyway. All right, here we go.

C (1:57)

Nobody ever said, dude, you drank an entire bottle of vodka last night. That was awesome. Nobody ever said that. Right. But you worked nine 16 hour days in a row and made a bunch of money. And people praise you for that, for that Highly addictive, dangerous behavior. It's also a secondary addiction. The primary addiction is an addiction to success. And what I find is that the pathology, actually of people who wind up workaholic, it starts when they're kids. They get the attention and affection of adults when they do stuff, when they bring home a good report card, when they make the baseball team, when they first chair in the orchestra. That's when they really get praise. And so they make the connection as children that love is something that's earned. Now, love is a free gift, freely given. It's a grace. It's not a gift. Graces and gifts are different, but they learn that it's an earned thing. And so the result of that is that they wire their little brains. Their little prefrontal cortex is highly plastic. They grow up thinking that they have to be special. This is what leads to the cult of specialness, which is a real pathology, because that leads to a success addiction. Their brains don't actually get sufficient dopamine unless they're winning, unless they're having an outlandish experience, unless they're getting praised and they're admired by strangers. It's pathological. It's not normal at all. And most people don't actually suffer from this, but by the way, they become billionaires.

A (3:09)

Agree.

B (3:12)

All right.

A (3:13)

I mean, there's.

B (3:13)

All right, everybody, thanks for tuning in.

A (3:15)

There's so much to unpack because nobody ever said, I've thought about this a lot in the context of. But isn't that good? Like, where, where does it become unhealthy? And at what point, at what point do you stop pursuing success? Or is success just the byproduct of doing something that's fulfilling to you or you know what I'm saying? Like, yes, I understand that that's largely cultivated from your environment and that it's pathological and it's not normal. But also it's like, there's a lot of good reasons to signal competence and to create your life, and there's not a lot of good reasons to drink a bottle of vodka. Right? So, like, one of them is more clearly helpful and one of them is more clearly detrimental. However, both of them, given enough time, can be detrimental, especially as it relates to what Arthur Brooks talks about the most, which is your long term happiness.

B (4:19)

Well, and I think he kind of. I think the issue isn't the working hard. I think, like, what he kind of hit is, like, what's driving it. And I think that's kind of like the big piece. I think it's a big piece like you're seeing. I mean, we're talking about the Epstein earlier, but. But like, when you see a lot of these, like, and I'm not saying on the Travis Makes Money podcast that everybody wealthy is a pedophile. Let me be clear. That would be really bad news. But. But. But, I mean, you do look at some of the people that are most frequently mentioned in this, that are extremely wealthy, like, billionaire. Like, the wealthiest people.

A (5:02)

Billionaires.

B (5:03)

Yeah. And, like, I think they're probably billionaires due to the same broken pieces that make them do all the other things they do for accolades and attention and, like, I think, like.

A (5:20)

And novelty.

B (5:21)

Yeah. Like, I. I think it's like that what. What he mentioned is, like, the pursuit of, like, okay, people will love me or people will do this for me, or I'll have the power over this thing versus, like, the person. Like, that driver seems to be the bigger issue than, like, the time spent. You know what I mean? Because I'm sure Arthur Brook spends a lot of time researching all the things he talks about and doing all that stuff, but it's like, are you coming at it and going, like, I need to make a billion dollars because that'll fill this hole that my parents left in me, you know? Like.

A (5:54)

Like, is it. Is it a. Is it. Is it something bad in you that's pushing you to create something of value, or is it something good in you that's pulling to create? You know what I'm saying? Like, Right. That idea of the push, pull, I think, is. Is an interesting frame to view this through. Is, like, what. Is there a greater purpose that's pulling you towards it? Or is there something, you know, like, you said, like, a. A hole within you that is pushing you to go achieve things so that you can fill that hole or create some perception that you've at least taken care of the thing that drove you crazy for so long about yourself or something like that.

B (6:34)

Yeah, I don't know. I always wrestle with this because, like, I. I feel like I see critics of say. Say, a hormozi. I feel like we always use this example, but he's like. He's an admitted workaholic, like, where it's like, I can't go on vacation. Like, I just need to be working. And I hear his explanation for why he feels the way he does. But, like, I also see critics that go, like, there's something deeply, like, concerning, if that's your mentality. Like, sure. And both of those things make sense to me, but it's like, I think at the end of the day, you kind of only know yourself, like, what the. What the driver is. Like, it's like, it's the same. And it's the same for fitness or anything else. It's like, there's dudes that go to the gym every day for a couple hours a day that are extremely healthy and they do it because they love it. And there's also a big swath of people that go to the gym for hours a day because they're so deeply insecure, right. That they're like feeding an addiction to this because it's basically like a disorder, right? You know, so it's like, I mean,

A (7:38)

it is a disorder.

B (7:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (7:39)

It literally creates like eating disorders and physical disorders and you actually start sacrificing your health in pursuit of the perception of health.

B (7:48)

Just like you would start sacrificing your well being to look successful.

A (7:53)

Right?

B (7:53)

You know, it's like, it's. It's the old thing of like, I have tons and tons of money coming in, my wife hates me, my kids hate me, and you know, I just literally will be very vague, but like, I, I know someone recently that's extremely financially successful. I've seen them build their way up and like, they just moved to this gorgeous new property, like gigantic house, lots of land, and they're living there by themselves. You know what I mean? Like, their family is in a different state and you know what I mean? Like, like for what was. Like, for what was the purpose of this? You know, I don't know why I said that. Like Yoda, for what's the purpose of this? But, but, but it really is like you sit there and go like, well, why? Like, that's where I go. Like, Alex, it's like, well, you have two freaks that like both love this and they found each other to do it along. Like, yeah, there might be something there, you know, and then you see others where it's like.

A (8:49)

And that might change.

B (8:50)

Right?

A (8:50)

You know, I honestly, I expected to. For somebody, for somebody who does not actually know them personally, but has followed their brand closely and have a lot of like, personal connections who do know them really well. I feel like there's sort of a change that's coming for them on that front because, like, what you calling it now, dude? I'm calling it because. Because I see both of, both of them love talking about philosophy and love talking about meaning and happiness and all these other things. Both Alex. And they love those topics of discussion. They've already done so much in the business world in their. And they're in their mid-30s. Mid, mid to late-30s, something like that. I don't, I don't. I'm pretty sure they're like 35, 36, something and so I think, I think that given the next, like, few years of pursuing the dominance of action.com once they sort of. Once they sort of put the feather in the cap on that, I think they're going to really. I have a feeling that they're going to be pursuing some other form of like a higher purpose or calling that. That looks a little bit different than the, the phase of extreme hustle that they have committed themselves to over the past like 10, 15 years. That. That's just a personal opinion. I think. I just believe that that's probably going to happen based on the evidence that I've seen. And you can see that they're sort of wrestling with it, you know, like when you do a hundred million dollars in a day, you know, it's like, what else am I?

B (10:17)

Like what now?

A (10:18)

Like, I think I'm good, you know.

B (10:19)

Right.

A (10:20)

Like, pretty much, you know, like he could, he could stop working tomorrow and have all of his money be working for him and never have to do anything again and live an amazingly wealthy life, you know what I mean? So if there's not some sort of deeper purpose that's calling him to become a multi deca billionaire.

B (10:39)

Yeah.

A (10:40)

Then at some point the sh. The. The focus needs to shift and that's a decision that they'll have to make at that time. And I think it'll largely depend on whether or not they decide to have kids. I don't know if that's something that they're wanting to do or not, but obviously that, that will by itself change a lot. And some people have just decided, like, I know Tom and Lisa Billyu are that way, you know, extremely successful business people and they have on the record stated multip that like, look, we don't, we just don't want to have kids. We don't, like, we're. We're so. We're so full of this mission that we know kids would be something that takes us down a completely different mission and makes us lose focus on this thing. So we're just not going to do that. It's like, okay, that's, that's totally fine. But then, like I said, I think that if, if somebody goes like, hey, let's try that, see how that goes, and then you have a kid and then it completely changes everything about you. You start reprioritizing everything. So I don't know, I think we'll see. I think we'll see a little bit of a different vibe from the hermosis in like, you know, say from now than we have in the, in the previous 10 years, which I guess is sort of obvious. But yeah, that's my, my, my personal call is that they'll slip out of that, like, grind hustle thing sooner than other people would think that they will.

B (11:52)

Interesting.

A (11:52)

It's my hot tea.

B (11:53)

He's going to stitch this B. No, I don't even know that guy. Nope, he's not going to do that. Yeah, I, I guess, like, do you. Because I think it all comes down to your values, right? Like, what do you want to actually accomplish and why? But like, I feel like also when you get onto like the treadmill of like, okay, well, if we do this deal, it'll bring in this much more. And if we make this partnership, like, it can be easy to get kind of swept up in the current of like the hustle of like, if I do this and this and this and this.

A (12:28)

Hustle for hustle's sake.

B (12:29)

Yeah. And then you're almost like, did I want this? Like, was this even something that I was, was wanting? Like, how often do you think people should be auditing if they're actually doing what they want or if they're just doing what is opening up? Like, doors open all the time.

A (12:44)

Doesn't mean you should walk through them.

B (12:45)

Doesn't mean you should walk through them.

A (12:46)

Yeah, I, that's something I think a lot about is climbing the right mountain, you know, because, like, it takes a lot of effort to climb the mountain, regardless. Meaning it takes a lot of effort to be successful at whatever field or endeavor that you're pursuing. So you may as well have some sort of clarity or confidence that you're climbing the right one. Because that, that to me is like the worst case scenario is you sacrifice and you fully commit and you put in two, three decades of work and you commit your life to this thing. You make it all the way to the top of that mountain and then you realize once you get there that you actually wanted to be on the other mountain, you know, and you don't even frankly care if you made it to the top of that mountain. You just want to be in that game. You just want to be in the hike. Because you would have enjoyed that way better and it would have been a better use of your time. So I think, I think that is a useful exercise to engage in all the time. The only caveat I would give to that is you can't make decisions. You can't make life altering decisions from a place of fear. So if you're in the middle of one of those am I doing what I should be doing, audits, and you happen to be going through a really difficult time in the pursuit of the path that you're on. That does not, that is not an indicator that you're on the wrong path just because it's hard right now, just because you're struggling right now or it's uncomfortable right now, that does not mean that you should be pursuing a different path in life. And I think that that's sort of a danger of consistently asking yourself that question is that you can delude yourself into believing that another path would have been easier had you done that path. And then you give up on this one too quickly because you came across an obstacle and asked yourself that question in the midst of that obstacle. So you don't want to make those types of like life changing, career altering decisions when you're in this place of fear because you're rubbing up against this massive obstacle that's like, I don't how to get around this or how to get through this. But I do think it's still a useful practice because of what I mentioned earlier. It's like you, you, it takes a lot of effort to climb the mountain, so you better make sure you're climbing the right mountain. But, but all that to say though that your, your pursuit of that thing is probably the greater fulfillment that you will experience in life is pursuing something that matters to you, not necessarily in attaining that thing. So that's why you should be pursuing something that has some so meaning to you. Because even if you don't find the, the picture perfect result or goal that you had, if you never reached that goal, but you reached this thing that was adjacent to that goal that you found out along the way was actually more important to you than the thing that you set out to achieve at the beginning. I think you're just going to find more, more purpose, more fulfillment and more joy in the pursuit of that thing than you will in the attainment of it. And so you're, you're, you want to, you want to start with the self awareness of asking yourself what exactly do I want out of life and what can I reasonably demand from life based on the volume of work that I'm willing to put in? You know what I mean? So you know, I, when, when I was first getting started in this world, to me it was like make, make a hundred grand a year. I was like, that was, that was like the holy Grail. Like if I can make six figures, man, I can have everything I want made six figures. And then Pretty quickly realized that like just barely cracking six figures was not enough for me in terms of the lifestyle that I wanted to live. So I just got more clear on what the lifestyle demanded. Then I was like, then I'm going to go build, you know, now I'm going to do this software startup and I'm going to turn this into a $200 million company. And so I started working on that. Then you start realizing the demands of your time and energy that it takes to build a multi nine figure business and you start going like, oh, maybe I actually not sure I'm okay with that trade off, you know what I mean? So you can start again, getting clarity along the way and sort of redesigning your life along the way. The purpose of this show obviously is to say that you're probably going to need more money than you think that you need. But it starts with the exercise of actually trying to figure out what that number is. Like what do I need to be making on a monthly basis and on annual basis, or what do I have to have in cash in my bank account or net worth in my investments? Like what is the number that I need to be able to reach in order to be able to live the life that I want to live? And then reverse engineer the work that has to be done in order to be able to achieve that and ask yourself, are you willing to put in that work? And if the answer is no, then you have to adjust your expectations of what you're going to get out of life. If the answer is yes, then it becomes as simple as just putting in the work to achieve that thing. Simple, not easy because it's probably going to require a lot of hard work over a consistent period of time and some of it's going to be really boring, but at least you have the path at that point. So for me it was, it was like trying to build massive company and then now I'm sort of in this like in between space where I'm like, look, I don't for what I want in my life. And having kids honestly changed a lot of this for me. For what I want in my life. I don't want, I don't have the desire, I don't have the goal to become a billionaire. That's not a goal of mine because I know I've talked to plenty of billionaires on the show. I know the amount of work that it takes to become a billionaire and frankly, I'm not willing to put in that much work. I just, I just am not. I'm not willing to take that much risk, do that much work. Like someone like Elon Musk is a great example of this. Where it's like, dude exited PayPal when he was in his late 20s and walked away with a quarter billion dollars. Like, you would have never heard from me again if I exited a company for, if I had a quarter billion dollars cash, my bank account, like, yeah, I'm, I'm good. Like, I'll spend the rest of doing whatever I want with whoever I want. Of course I'm going to be doing stuff right. Nobody's going to just retire on the beach and do nothing ever again. But I would have not risked my entire fortune to go build 2 billion dollar companies simultaneously now. Trillion dollar companies simultaneously. I would not have done that, I can tell you that much. But that's also why I am not worth nine figures or 10 figures or eight figures for that matter, because I don't have those types of lofty goals. And I know because I have enough self awareness to understand that that is not like I want to be able to enjoy watching movies with my family or my friends and talking about, talking about how cool or dumb the movie was. I want to be like, I'm not willing to sacrifice those things in pursuit of becoming a billionaire. I just want to create a life where my family's needs are met, I can help the people around me and I don't have to worry about, you know, the next car I'm going to buy or putting the meal on the table or, or, or we're taking one vacation instead of three vacations or where we go on vacation. I just don't want to worry about that stuff. So now I know what my number is. And I am on the path to reverse engineering that number so that I can live the life that I want to live. But then beyond that, once you achieve that, then you can sort of take account of what you got going on at that point and then adjust and redo it from there. Maybe I reached the number that I'm thinking of in my mind now, just like I did with six fig. And I go, nah, actually, I mean this was, this was cool, but like, I really want to do that thing. Okay, great. Nothing says you can't pursue that at that point. But in the meantime, like, I'm, I'm pretty happy doing what I do now. You know what I mean? And I know that we could probably be doing double or triple the revenue that we're doing right now if I did these, you know, fill in the blank. These three, four different things. Like right now I'm feeling pretty good. Like I get to record a bunch of podcast content, I get to hang out with my family a lot, get to hang out with my friends a lot.

B (20:22)

You get to record with your friends.

A (20:24)

I get to, I get to tolerate my producer on co hosted episodes like this one and that, that works out pretty well for me. So yeah, it's, it's really, it's a, it's a factor of self awareness, I think, in a lot of these cases. But ultimately, if you are only setting up your life in pursuit of success and nothing else, then I think that you're going to end up unfulfilled, unhappy maybe lack of joy, lack of purpose. Or like you, what you mentioned, you might get the big house in the beautiful part of the country that you wanted to live in and drive the car that you want to drive. And all of it's empty and you're by yourself because you sacrificed all of that in pursuit of this quote unquote success point that you thought was going to magically make you happy. And that's just not how life works.

B (21:10)

Well, go ahead and thanks for tolerating that. Go ahead and close this out.

A (21:13)

Which is, which is a perfect lead into the sign off of this show, which is money only solves your money problems. So in light of what we just talked about, we know money is not the end all, be all, it's not the only thing that you should be pursuing in life. But when you got money in the bank, your problems tend to be a little bit easier to be able to take care of. So let's solve that problem first here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time. Peace.