CO-HOST | Make Money Writing a Book That Actually Sells

Summary

Travis Makes Money – Episode Summary

Episode: CO-HOST | Make Money Writing a Book That Actually Sells
Date: April 8, 2026
Host: Travis Chappell
Co-Host: (Producer, unnamed)
Notable Guests (Clips): Dan Martell, Tom Bilyeu, Alex Hormozi (clip)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the realities of making money as an author in today’s saturated publishing landscape. Travis and his producer/co-host engage in an honest, often humorous conversation about what it actually takes to write and sell a book that stands out—and why most books don't. They weigh the pros and cons of traditional, hybrid, and self-publishing, share sobering book sales statistics, and discuss the importance of writing a truly great book in a world awash with low-quality, AI-generated content.

The show is rich with practical advice, author case studies, motivational insights, and memorable quotes from Travis and prominent guests, ultimately delivering a blueprint for aspiring writers who want their work to make an impact (and money).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Travis Hasn’t Written a Book (Yet)

• Personal Philosophy: Travis does not want to write a book simply for the sake of being an “author.” He insists that only a “really good, helpful book” is worth the substantial time and effort.
  • Quote: “I don't want to just write a book for the sake of writing a book. I want to write a book that's a very good, helpful book, and that takes a lot of time and a lot of attention, and I don't necessarily want to engage in all of the work that it requires.” (01:25, Travis)
• Lead Magnet Experience: He previously released a book (“Meet Your Hero”) as a lead magnet—essentially, a transcribed course with ghostwriting fill-ins.
  • “That was literally just like a lead magnet for stuff that we were working on. But that's why I say I have not written a book. Book.” (02:29, Travis)

2. Traditional v/s Self-Publishing: Choosing Your Path

• Travis’s Stance: Given his current stage, Travis prefers traditional publishing for the added “clout and credibility,” editorial oversight, access to agents, and the chance to leverage the book for future speaking gigs.
  • Quote: “I think the traditional publishing route would just bring a lot of clout and credibility and I personally would want to use it as a springboard to do a lot more speaking gigs...For me personally, my situation as it sits now, I would probably go traditional.” (05:07, Travis)
• Hybrid Models: Travis finds hybrid publishers like Scribe Media appealing—more editorial help and distribution than pure self-publishing, but still not as much cachet as traditional.
• Self-Publishing Disadvantages: He rules out self-publishing for his first “real book” because of the lack of gatekeeping and credibility, and his lack of a massive audience to self-distribute.

Memorable Moment (Guided Meditation):
Co-host asks Travis, in a mock-meditation, which path he’d take.
“Travis, if you were to write a book in 2026, would you do traditional publishing or self publishing?...I would go traditional.”—(03:35 – 03:38)

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[Clip] Guest Example: Dan Martell’s Regrets About Traditional Publishing

Dan Martell (author and SaaS entrepreneur) shares his experience:

• Regrets Going Traditional: Martell would self-publish if he could do it again, preferring the flexibility to use his book for lead generation, bonuses, or free+shipping funnels—things forbidden by most traditional publishers.
  • Quote: “I am...so right now I've been toying with the team because the book has gotten so much traction and the feedback and like it's like it's having an impact way beyond I ever thought that I'm literally going to gift it to a thousand people because I actually think that is ROI positive in the rest of my life...But I’ve got to buy them at retail for my own book.” (08:08 – 08:32, Dan Martell)

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3. The Harsh Reality of Book Sales Stats

Surprising Numbers:

• 14.7% of Penguin Random House’s books sell fewer than 12 copies in their first year. (15:36, Co-host)
• About two-thirds of traditionally published books never sell more than 1,000 copies over their lifetime. (16:06–16:12)
• 90% of “Big Five” traditionally published books sell fewer than 5,000 copies. (17:08, Co-host)
• 70-75% fail to earn back their advance. (17:23, Co-host)

“Meaning roughly two thirds of the traditionally published books never exceed a thousand total lifetime sales.” (16:12, Travis)

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4. Book Market Saturation and the Role of AI

• Output hit 4 million new titles published in 2025 (a 32.5% jump over 2024): “The increase was led by self published works...soared 38.7% to more than 3.5 million.” (21:34–21:45, Co-host)
• Explosion of self-publishing, much of it attributed to low-quality, mass-produced, AI-generated books (“slop”).
  • “There’s so much slop out there in the self published space where like the credibility of being traditionally published is huge.” (22:04, Co-host)
• Only 650,000 out of 4.5 million new books in 2025 were traditionally published. (22:26, Travis)
• Even with the growth in traditional publishing (+10% in 3 years), the bar for “making it” as an author is higher than ever.

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5. Is Any Market Too Saturated? There’s Always Room for the Best

Tom Bilyeu (Clip, Founder of Quest Nutrition):

• On entering crowded spaces: “There’s always room for the best.” (25:11, Tom Bilyeu)
• Skill set trumps market saturation: “If you’re not where you want to be, you don’t have the skill set you need. You’re just not good enough—yet... So wherever you are, there is a massive amount of improvement that can be done.” (25:11–26:38, Bilyeu)

Travis’s Takeaway:

• “It doesn't matter what you think is too saturated. It's just not too saturated. You can always stand out if you do really well and if you get better at the thing, you can, you can outperform everybody else.” (26:41, Travis)

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6. The “Just Write a Good Book” Rule

• With millions of books released and AI creating new waves of content, distinguishing yourself comes down to quality.
  • “Regardless of if you self publish, you hybrid publish, you traditionally publish. Whatever you do, just make it good. Just do your best to be proud of the final product and it doesn't matter necessarily where you put it out.” (27:55, Travis)
• The Alex Hormozi Example: Bestselling author who self-published, but took years perfecting his material, and sold millions through substance and relentless refinement—not just marketing or status.
  • “He actually spent, you know, a couple of years writing and rewriting and then, and then rewriting and then editing and then rewriting..." (28:47, Travis)

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7. Conclusion & Advice for Aspiring Authors

Final Recommendations:

• Take time to genuinely write the best book you can, no matter how you publish.
• Don’t chase the “bestselling author” or “TEDx speaker” tag for status alone—focus on substance, not bio points.
  • “...We could pump out a book next week and become an Amazon bestseller…but it's sort of the same thing as TEDx speaker to me...I just feel like that outcome is always better if you take the time to make it good.” (29:36–30:35, Travis)

Alex Hormozi (Clip, on Preparation):

• “People underestimate how much smarter you can seem if you have 20 minutes of preparation... I would rather be known for my work ethic than my natural gift.” (30:38–31:10, Alex Hormozi)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I just know how much time goes into [writing a good book] and I don't want to jump the gun or not take the process seriously just for the sake of getting a book out.” (02:29, Travis)
• “There’s always room for the best.” (25:11, Tom Bilyeu)
• “Assume you were born hopelessly average. You can improve.” (25:38, Tom Bilyeu)
• “Just make it good. Just do your best to be proud of the final product and it doesn't matter necessarily where you put it out.” (27:55, Travis)
• “It's like author status has become the next ‘crypto bro’ in some of these circles...” (implied throughout discussion on bio-padding)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:25 – Travis on not wanting to write “just any book”
• 03:35 – Travis chooses traditional publishing during mock-meditation
• 05:07–06:17 – Travis explains his rationale for traditional (and hybrid) publishing
• 08:08–08:32 – Dan Martell on the limits of traditional publishing
• 15:36–17:23 – Co-host shares shocking book sales stats
• 21:34–22:31 – Discussion of the scale of book market & AI’s role in flooding it with low-quality titles
• 23:13–26:38 – Tom Bilyeu: “There’s always room for the best” clip and Travis’s reflections
• 27:55–29:36 – The “write a good book no matter what” rule
• 30:38–31:10 – Alex Hormozi clip: Preparation, skill-building, and humility

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Takeaways for Aspiring Authors

• Don’t write a book for the “author” title—write because you have something great to share.
• Traditional publishing can add credibility, but isn’t required for success—what matters most is quality and persistence.
• No medium is “too saturated” if you’re willing to do the hard work to be the best.
• Take pride in real substance, not status symbols or shortcuts.
• Prepare meticulously and treat your work like the long-term asset it can be.

Transcript

[Host]

K Pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boy's breakfast meal and Hunt Trick's meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Travis]

It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor.

[Host]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.

[Travis]

Ba da ba ba ba. And participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Announcer]

You're listening to the Travis makes Money podcast presented by GoHighLevel.com for a free

[Travis]

30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet. Just go to gohighlevel.com travis. Yo, what's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis makes Money

[Announcer]

podcast, where it's a mission to help you make more money.

[Travis]

Today on the show, my producer is in studio and we're talking a little bit about books.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Guest 1]

Where'd you.

[Co-host]

How'd you know that? It's crazy. It's like there's a big screen, almost

[Travis]

like you have something pulled up on

[Announcer]

a massive screen in front of my face.

[Co-host]

Travis, we're about to start a new chapter because we're talking about books.

[Announcer]

Nice.

[Travis]

Good, cat, good.

[Co-host]

That was a good forward. But let's turn the page and get into the main topic at hand, which is books. Okay, so. So I wanted to talk, first of all, why haven't you written a book, you big buffoon?

[Travis]

Wild thing to say. First, I have not written a book because I. I don't. I don't want to just write a book for the sake of writing a book. I want to write a book that's a very good, helpful book, and that takes a lot of time and a lot of attention, and I don't necessarily want to engage in all of the work that it requires.

[Co-host]

Well, I guess you kind of wrote a book, but you. You haven't written a book that's like, not. Not a lead magnet book.

[Travis]

Yeah, that was just literally. That book was a transcribed course.

[Co-host]

Thanks for bringing it up.

[Travis]

Yeah, I wrote a book called Meet hero a while ago that was literally just a course that we had called meet your hero about how to reach out to people that are difficult to get in touch with. And we. So I was doing this event and was like, hey, might as well turn it into a book. So I transcribed the book and had a ghostwriter fill in the blanks. And then that became Meet yout Hero. So it's on Amazon. It is a. Oh, that's a five star review. Cool. Yeah, the. The. That was literally just like a lead magnet for stuff that we were working on. But that's why I say I have not written a book. Book.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Travis]

Because I know if I like when I write a book because I want to. I want it. I want it to be just a great product by itself. And I just know how much time goes into that and I don't want to jump the gun or not take the process seriously. Just for the sake of getting a book out.

[Co-host]

I'm going to ask you a really important question. I want you to close your eyes real quick.

[Travis]

Okay?

[Co-host]

Okay. Hold on one second.

[Travis]

They're closed.

[Co-host]

Hold on, I'm waiting. All right, here we go. I'm going to gently play this in the background.

[Travis]

Okay. I'm going to have you gently play it, though. Don't aggressively play it.

[Co-host]

Have you open your eyes.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Co-host]

It's a guided meditation. Travis, if you were to write a book in 2026, would you do traditional publishing or self publishing? I want you to think about it. You can open your eyes now. This is getting weird. What are you going to do? Think about it. Take your time.

[Travis]

I would go.

[Co-host]

Wait, really?

[Travis]

I'm gonna wait for this to go all the way down.

[Co-host]

If you were gonna write a book today, would you traditionally publish or self publish? Don't take all day. We have a podcast to do.

[Travis]

I would go traditional. Traditional publishing.

[Co-host]

I didn't know what to do if you answered that early.

[Travis]

Well, you can probably just stop the countdown.

[Co-host]

Okay. Now was that okay? Sorry. I actually. Can I be honest with you?

[Travis]

Why?

[Co-host]

I totally didn't hear your answer because I was so focused on the timer being a fun gimmick.

[Travis]

Traditional, traditional, traditional. Did you hear it that time?

[Co-host]

Okay. Yes. Thank you. Why would you do that?

[Announcer]

There's a lot of.

[Co-host]

Don't look at the article for answers.

[Travis]

I have asked this question to, I don't know, 30 to 50 authors that I've had on the show over the last couple of years, people who have published traditionally and people who have self published, people who have done both of them or only stuck to one. And although I see a lot of value in the self publishing side, I also, because of the point that I'm at in my career, I would personally go traditional because of the. The added clout and credibility that it brings to the project as a whole, and because I don't necessarily have, like, A bank of IP that I'm trying to sell on the back end. And I think that that is more conducive for self publishing. And I also don't have like a massive presence in the book writing or author world. So I would prefer at least for my first book to go traditionally published because of the additional clout and credibility, but also because of like the editing process and the agent process that they help you like actually bring a final product that's worth reading out to the public when you're done with it versus self published is obviously no regulation at all. And I've thought about, there's sort of like an in between where these sort of hybrid publishers exist, where you still pay money to write the book instead of get paid from like an advance or something. I thought about that more seriously than I have self publishing. Like self publishing, I've sort of written off as like I'm not going to do that. So to me it was always like hybrid where it's like a scribe media or something where they, they, they publish a lot of actually really good books and they have distribution. You can still get into bookstores and you can still get into Hudson at the airport or whatever. Like. So I've thought about that a little bit more than I've considered actual self publishing. But I still think that where, again where I am in my career, I think the traditional publishing route would just bring a lot of clout and credibility and I personally would want to use it as a springboard to do a lot more speaking gigs, like paid speaking gigs for corporations and things like that. And I think that that is not, it's not necessary. Of course there's still plenty of examples of people who self published and it went crazy and you know, they're doing just fine. But for again, for me personally, my situation as it sits now, I would probably go traditional, which is why another, which is another reason why I haven't written one because it's obviously just more difficult to get a traditionally published book than it is to just write a book and pub.

[Announcer]

So.

[Co-host]

Have you ever asked anyone on your show about traditional versus self publishing?

[Travis]

Yeah, about 30 to 50. Like I had mentioned before. Yeah. Somewhere in there there's dozens and dozens of people.

[Co-host]

I was trying to get you to queue up the clip. Is there someone specific?

[Travis]

There's somebody specific that I remember. Who. His name is Dan Martell and he wrote a book and I asked him that question on the show.

[Co-host]

Yeah, because he gave a counter answer to what you just said. So I'll Just play it for an example. Thanks for making that such an awkward transition.

[Guest 1]

Ask me if I would do it again now.

[Travis]

Would you do it again?

[Guest 1]

No.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Guest 1]

No way, Jose. No way. No. Because I knew now I would have missed my editor because he was amazing.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Guest 1]

But I'm probably sure I could hire somebody that would have.

[Travis]

Sure.

[Guest 1]

You know what I mean?

[Announcer]

Especially with your skill set.

[Guest 1]

I actually have met people at events that seem really talented in that space, have worked on some pretty, you know, phenomenal books. And hey, there's a lot of talent on the market right now. So I run one of the largest software, CEO coaching, mentoring, SaaS Academy or client at one point. And so the team and I are writing a new book for just that audience.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest 1]

And we're doing that self published. I think we're going to go with one of those traditional like the hybrid companies.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Guest 1]

That have the infrastructure if we want to do the. Because like that's what they sell you on is you know, we'll get you in the book distribute. Yeah. And it's like turns out the distribution shit, they don't sell books. And they're kind of honest about. They're like when you do a book deal, you have to put. Essentially, I think our book proposal is like 65 pages. It was like a real.

[Travis]

Yeah, it was like, like you're writing for a grant or something.

[Guest 1]

A thousand percent. It was exactly like. Good, good metaphor. And so, you know, by the time you do all that work, it's like I could just own it because I can't. I would if I could. I would give away bonus chapters. I would give away the audio. I would have sold for way less.

[Travis]

Like, isn't there rules too about like how you're allowed to sell it or something? Like you would not be able to do like a free plus shipping funnel.

[Guest 1]

That's the problem. I cannot do that.

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Guest 1]

So like I am.

[Travis]

You can't use it as an asset

[Guest 1]

for lead gen. Not the way I would have hoped to. So right now I've been toying with the team because the book has gotten so much traction and the feedback and like it's like it's having an impact way beyond I ever thought that I'm literally going to gift it to a thousand people because I actually think that is ROI positive in the rest of my life.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Guest 1]

So we're just literally working. I got to go buy them at retail.

[Travis]

Dude.

[Guest 1]

Isn't that crazy?

[Travis]

That is insane.

[Guest 1]

So like step one is call them up to my publisher to negotiate a bulk buy.

[Travis]

Deal.

[Guest 1]

Yeah, a bulk buy deal. Who's going to get the warehouse? Who's going to ship. Ship it. Dude, for my own book, right. And then once I do that, then I gotta go find the people I want to gift it to and then figure out how we get it in their hands. And if, gosh forbid, I want to do like an insert or a signed copy. I mean, it adds complexity through the yin yang.

[Co-host]

You were really tickled in that one. You were giggly, giggly in that clip. Quite tickled on that one.

[Guest 1]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

There's some good things.

[Travis]

Yeah. That essentially, like, I understand all of his reasoning for why he wouldn't want to do it that way again, but. But it's also the same.

[Announcer]

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[Travis]

I get it.

[Announcer]

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[Travis]

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[Announcer]

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[Travis]

for why I would want to do it for my first book. Because again, even the level of success that he had when he wrote that book is different than where I'm sitting currently. Like he was already worth tens of millions of dollars when he wrote his first book. So like he could have done everything himself. He could have hired a fantastic editor internally. He could have, you know, used it for a lead gen. He's bringing page or something.

[Co-host]

He's bringing more credibility to the book than the book is adding credibility to him. Sure. Whereas if you were writing a book, it would be a major or if I were to write a book like someone who has like a niche audience or has done something to get a traditional publisher to invest money is like a notch on your credibility versus like correct them pursuing you going like, please publish a book with us because your name will sell copies.

[Travis]

Right? Yeah. So I've again thought a lot about it. I think in the future if, you know, we go to book number four, book number five, then it might be a little bit more like, okay, well I have enough distribution internally, I have enough of the credibility and I'm already getting speaking gigs, whatever. I might just stick to self publishing or some sort of a hybrid model at that point. But yeah, I think for me for the first book, it's meaningful to me to have a publisher behind it. Just personally I think, which is why I would choose that path. But yeah, it also just, I think just the final product becomes better when you go through that traditional process and set you up to have a better book launch on the back end. And I know that there plenty of reasons to disagree with me on this. In fact, I was having a conversation with a buddy recently and he asked me that and I told him traditional. And he was like, why? You know, I told him all that and he's like, yeah, but you know, you could look at, look at this example and look at that example and it's like I, I, I know, I know that, you know, but also for me I've just, I figured that this is probably the path that I would prefer to take just for all the reasons that I, that I Already said so.

[Co-host]

Can you some crazy stats, please? Because I've been deep diving book sales and this is nuts. Okay? Out of the front list, titles from major publishers like Penguin Random House, 14.7% of books sell fewer than 12 copies in their first year. From Penguin Random House, traditional publishing.

[Announcer]

Holy shit.

[Co-host]

So if you want to be. If you want to rise above, you need to sell 13 books.

[Travis]

I think I can do that.

[Co-host]

But yeah. And then 51% of books, books from major publishers sell 12 to 999 copies.

[Travis]

That's the part that blows my mind. Meaning roughly two thirds of the traditionally published books never exceed a thousand total lifetime sales. That gives me a good amount of confidence to go to a publisher and potentially get a deal at some point is that I don't know if I can sell 100,000 copies. I'm not sure I could sell 10,000 copies. I can will myself 5,000.

[Announcer]

You know what I mean?

[Travis]

Just from my sales ability and my audience and the fact that I ran a marketing agency that helped authors get publicity for their books when they launched. So, like that. When I. When I read stuff like that, it makes me go like, okay, well, if they're publishing this much stuff that doesn't get any traction, then it's like, I think, I think at some point I'll probably be able to convince somebody to be like, to take a chance on. To take a chance on me. And I know that I could sell more than a thousand copies.

[Announcer]

That's for sure.

[Co-host]

Yeah. With traditional releases for the big five imprints, over 90% sell fewer than $5,000 or 5,000 lifetime copies.

[Travis]

That's crazy, man. 90%.

[Co-host]

That's encouraging to me.

[Travis]

It is encouraging.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Travis]

5,000 copies is just not that many.

[Co-host]

I can do that. But yeah, I thought that was crazy. And then the. What amount earn back their advance? Most traditionally published books, around 70, 75% fail to earn back their advance through royalties.

[Travis]

Wow.

[Co-host]

That gumbo. All right, well, the reason I bring all this up was. I don't know why I turned to Bill Clinton for a second. Oh, boy. I don't know who that is. That's not Bill Clinton. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Anyway, so this episode of the show

[Announcer]

is brought to you by Shopify. Starting something new isn't just hard, it is terrifying. So much work goes into this thing that you're just not entirely sure that's going to work out. It'd be hard to make that leap of faith. Trust me, I know when I started this podcast when I've started several of my businesses. I just wasn't even sure what I was doing. Like what if nobody listens to the show? What if I make a fool of myself? What if I embarrass myself? Nobody buys my stuff. Now I know that I was right in believing in myself and launching my podcast and several of my businesses despite all the fears and hesitations. But it also helps when you have an amazing partner like Shopify on your side to help. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. And 10% of all E commerce in the US is using Shopify. Like this is the place that hosts all of your favorite products and services. So if you are considering this, then Shopify is a must. Especially, especially, especially if you're going to launch some sort of an E. Comm product. So get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that actually matches your brand's style. But Travis, what if I get stuck? Well, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 247 customer support. Which is very, very important to people like me who are still some for some reason like caught in the 1980s and I want to talk to somebody when I actually have a problem and instead of just relying on an AI system. And did I mention that the iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world, that's from Shopify. It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. Helps boost conversions, meaning less carts going abandoned and more sales for you. So it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com TMM go to shopify.com TMM that's shopify.com TMM. This episode of the show is brought to you by Chime. Chime is not just another banking app. They unlock smarter banking for everyday people with products like MyPay giving you access to up to 500 of your paycheck anytime and getting paid up to 2 days early with direct deposit. Some old banks still don't do this, so forget overdraft fees, minimum balance fees, monthly fees. Chime turns everyday spending into real rewards and progress. Plus they have this new credit card which I'm a big fan of, this Chime card. It's the new way to build credit history with your own money and actually get rewarded every single day. So a lot of cards like this, they require you to put some sort of money down and then they will give you a credit card based on the money that you put down. But when they do that, because it basically is working off of the cash that you have down as collateral for the credit line, you don't get rewards on it. Well, Chime changed the game with their new credit card as well. There's no annual fees, there's no interest, no strings attached. And when you get qualifying direct deposits, you get 1.5% cash back on eligible Chime card purchases. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. So join the millions who are already banking fee free today. My younger self would have benefited from this, and I know you will too. It just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com travis that is chime.com/travis.

[Co-host]

I wanted to say this because we talk a lot about like saturated things like podcasts, YouTube and books. Book output is crazy right now. So they just released for 2025. Like the data around this, book output topped 4 million in 2025. There was 4 million new books. How many of those do you think were good books? Not very many.

[Travis]

Less than 0.1%.

[Co-host]

So the total number of books published in the US in 2025 with ISBN numbers jumped 32.5% over 2024. Thanks, AI. I guarantee you.

[Travis]

Oh yeah.

[Co-host]

To more than 4 million books. The increase was led by self published works for which the number of print and ebooks, including those without bisac codes, soared 38.7% to more than 3.5 million from 2.5 million in 2024. Okay. Number one, this adds fuel to the fire for me that traditionally published books is so important because there's so much, I don't want to use the word slop, but I will. There's so much slop out there in the self published space where like the credibility of being traditionally published is huge. But even in that space, the number of traditionally published books released in 2025 rose 6.6%.

[Travis]

So about 650,000 traditionally published out of the four and a half million that were released.

[Co-host]

Right. You know, there's a lot of factors like the rebound of self published books. There's an increase in, you know, there's a lot of things that are leading to this. People are going for more, the physical books and they're cutting the cord on certain things and all these different layers. But obviously this is a super, super saturated world.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

When you're approaching any New medium, books, podcasts, YouTube, whatever it is. And people go like, doesn't Everybody have a YouTube? Doesn't everybody have a podcast? Doesn't everybody write a book? What do you do to decide if it's worth jumping into? And do you ever think any market is like. Or any medium is too saturated?

[Travis]

I asked Tom Bilyeu this when I had him on the show.

[Guest 1]

Who.

[Travis]

For those listening, he's the founder of Quest Nutrition, one of the founders of Quest Nutrition, which sold for a billion dollars. And then he started podcasting and stuff like that. Afterwards, I asked him, why did you start a protein bar company? Because it's a wildly competitive space. And he said, there's always room for the best. Is something that he told me that I've taken into a lot of other things that I've done since then. There's always room for the best. So it doesn't matter how saturated a market is. If you do really, really well with something, then it. Then you can always rise to the top of that thing.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Podcasting to me is one of the. Is one of the ones that gets vilified the most, especially online. And that might just be because it's top of mind for me, because we post mostly podcasts and podcast clips. Clips. But like, the volume of people in comments, you know, wherever we post stuff is always saying something about, like, you know, podcast mics should be taxed or, you know, people shouldn't be allowed to start podcasts. And it's like podcasting is the least saturated of all of the platforms by a long shot, even compared to obviously, something like books. Like, there's. There's like 5 million total podcasts ever created. There were 5 million books released last year.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know what I mean? Like, And I said 5 million podcasts ever created. Less than 10% of those are actually actively releasing episodes in the last 30 days. So you're like, the. The competition on podcasting is still lower than it is compared to any other content platform. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Let's see what Tommy said. I just pulled up the clip.

[Travis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host]

That's the most insane, insane freeze frame ever. I was interviewing Jack Nicholson on the

[Guest 2]

show, and I think really has to be read. And so when you understand that even in that. That situation, somebody's saying, no, no, you still have the ability to choose how you respond, meaning you can change that frame of reference. That's when I was like, yeah, I'm going to stop worrying about what is accurate, and I'm just going to worry about what's empowering.

[Travis]

That's so, so fantastic. Last one. Here we go. There's always room for the best.

[Guest 2]

Yeah, I live by this. And I think that people need to understand you are where you are in your life right now because of your skill set. So if you're not where you want to be, you don't have the skill set you need. You're just not good enough. And a lot of people can't handle that because they think it means you're just not good enough, period. Forever. You will never be good enough.

[Co-host]

That was my takeaway from the episode I watched.

[Travis]

This was like, you will never be good enough.

[Co-host]

I just watched that clip.

[Guest 2]

That less than is not what it means. It means that your skill set is less than. You're not good enough yet. You can apply yourself. You said it earlier. Humans are the ultimate adaptation machine. It is what we are literally genetically designed to do is adapt. That's why the human animal is the ultimate apex predator. We just adapt, man. We can adapt mentally, we can adapt physically. It is crazy. The level to which we can adapt our bodies and our minds. And if you think that, oh, I'm this ultimate adaptation machine, but who I am now is who all I will ever be. It's like you're missing out on the precise thing that makes humans extraordinary. So I always tell people, look, just assume you're average. Assume you were born hopelessly average. You can improve. And even if you want to think that you're like way below average, fine, you are where you are, but you can still improve. So wherever you are, there is a massive amount of improvement that can be done.

[Co-host]

So yeah, that's.

[Travis]

Yeah, there's always room for the best.

[Co-host]

Please clap.

[Travis]

So it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you think is too saturated. It's just not too saturated. You can always stand out if you do really well and if you get better at the thing, you can, you can outperform everybody else. That's the whole thing. At like 5 million books released last year, like how many of those sold more than a thousand copies?

[Co-host]

How many self published books sold? Zero.

[Travis]

Right? Literally zero.

[Co-host]

Look at this. And again, don't use AI to write a book because I guarantee you that's responsible for this increase. But the number of traditionally published books increased 10% between 2022 and 2025. I think that's great because I think there's a lot of people that are returning to reading and all that sort of stuff. The number of self published books jumped 43%. If I had to guess 40% of those ones that are added in are sold 0 and were written with ChatGPT. Yeah, I can almost.

[Travis]

There's a bunch of AI slop that's included in those. Yeah, slop. People just trying to put the word author in their bio.

[Co-host]

Right. You know all the guys with funnels that are like, look at my book on how to take all their podcasts and ran them through the computer.

[Announcer]

Yep, exactly.

[Co-host]

I sounded boomer when I said ran

[Travis]

them through their computational machine.

[Co-host]

Anyway, so I thought, I thought it was an interesting thing to talk about some good numbers there. And you love numbers.

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And if you're. That's the thing. If you're going to write a book, regardless of if you self publish, you hybrid publish, you traditionally publish. Whatever you do, just make it good. Just do your best to be proud of the final product and it doesn't matter necessarily where you put it out. Just ask a bunch of people some questions like I did and ask yourself the question what matters to you and then decide on what you want to do. But regardless of the path that you take, just do your best to actually write a good book, because that's ultimately what's going to matter, especially from like a long tail perspective is, is the book that you wrote actually good? Because if it is actually good, then it will probably sell a good amount of copies.

[Announcer]

That's, that's frank.

[Travis]

Like if when I look at someone like Hermosi, that's what I attribute a ton of his virality to was that it was the explosion of the fact that he had just exited his company.

[Announcer]

Sure.

[Travis]

But it was also the fact that he took the time to write a really good book. He didn't do the thing that most people in his space at that time did, which is basically just like we talked about, like have some VAs and ghostwriters throw something together from his past material. He actually spent, you know, a couple of years writing and rewriting and then, and then rewriting and then editing and then rewriting and then editing and then rewriting and then actually came out with a book where like he didn't go traditional publisher, he published it himself, but that book has sold hundreds of thousands of copies. And then his second book did the same thing and then his third book sold millions and became the, the most. Broke the world record for the most non fiction books sold in a launch of a book in nonfiction history. So, you know, you don't have to go traditional publishing in order to be able to sell a good book or to have the final product Be really good.

[Announcer]

But.

[Travis]

But whatever path you decide to take, just make sure that you actually take the time to put together a good book. Which is one reason why I personally would rather go traditional publishing because I think that they will help me make a better final product and help help me the with the thought process of thinking through, actually trying to get a good idea across rather than just like writing a book for the sake of putting author in my bio. I thought about that all the time is like we could pump out a book next week and become an Amazon bestseller. You know what I mean?

[Guest 1]

Yeah, we could.

[Co-host]

Like I could in some category, I

[Travis]

could pull 100 responses from people I've had on the show and, and make it like a coffee table esque type of a book. And we could self publish that and like, you know, next week's an exaggeration, but within 90 days we could have a solid book put out there and get enough behind it to. To where I can put in my bio bestselling author. But it's sort of the same thing as like TEDx speaker to me. It's like I could keep throwing these random things in there or I could just focus on the things that I'm doing and actually try to make them really, really good. And I just feel like that outcome is always better if you take the time to make it good.

[Co-host]

So as Alex would say, people underestimate

[Alex Hormozi]

how much smarter you can seem if you have 20 minutes of preparation. Because if you practice really hard, you get better. The only win you get from not prepping and showing up to the fight is that you appear to be more naturally gifted. And I would rather be known for my work ethic than my natural gift. As an aside, but you appear to be more naturally gifted and then you win by less than you would if you prepared. The only things that upset the guys who are on the top of the mountain is hubris. There's really no reason that the guy on the top of the mountain should ever lose. And yet history shows us humans act like humans. And so we lose because of our egos and because it hurts to say, what if that person's better than me?

[Co-host]

You got to prep. Prep, prep. Thank you guys for listening to the Alex Hormozi fan cast. Travis closes out.

[Travis]

That's it for this episode of the show. Remember, money only solves your money problems,

[Announcer]

but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems.

[Travis]

Money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Catch you next time. Peace.