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Travis Makes Money
INTERVIEW | Make Money by Building Conviction, Making Bold Decisions, and Transforming Industries with George Barrios
00:29:17
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- [00:00]
A
Can we do it with the career you hadn't imagined was the one that powers your biggest dreams. Accounting isn't just about numbers, it's about creating your path. Imagine using accounting to call the shots off the field for the next big game, support your favorite stars world tour, empower your community, or spark your own business idea. Accounting is the switch that lights up endless possibilities, your dreams, your future. Visit jointaccountingplus.com to see how accounting turns on the possibilities.
- [00:30]
B
You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet. Just go to gohighlevel.com travis what's going on everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's a mission to help you make more money. On this episode of the show, I have a new friend, George Berrios. He's a business leader, investor and operator working at the intersection of sports, media and technology. He's co founder and co CEO of ISOS Capital where he invests in growth opportunities across across sports, entertainment and media. He's also an investor in and director of Global Sport Group, CVC backed sports investment platform whose portfolio includes La Liga Liga 1, the WTA and Equine Network. He also serves as co chair of Equine Network and serves as Trustee of the University of Connecticut. Probably best known for his tenure as co president and board member of the WWE where he helped transform the company into a global multi platform entertainment business. This guy has touched seemingly every single bit of news and media including the New York Times and Time Warner hbo. All these different places. WWE of course. And now he has a new book out as well. Sometimes wrong but never in doubt. George, what's up? Thank you so much for taking the time. Welcome to the show.
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A
Thanks man. It's good to be on it. Travis.
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B
I mean it's pretty rare where I read like this really long intro bio and the audience doesn't even know that I cut out like half of it.
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A
So. Done a few better job editing that now that you read it out loud. You're right, that is a little too long.
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B
Oh man.
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A
Well hey, when.
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B
When you've done as many cool things as you've done, man, it's hard to pick and choose which things are going to be most important to which audience. So congrats on all the success. Thanks for taking your time. I want to go way back in time here man. Tell me, tell me the first time George. That you feel like you got that itch to make the entrepreneur business itch. Like what was the first dollar you ever made that got you excited or shocked or sur?
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A
Yeah, well, look, I think my first job was at 13. My cousin had married a entrepreneur from Spain who started his own restaurant. We lived in Flushing, Queens. And he had done it in Long island, you know, and done Great Neck. And at that point in time I was starting to get into trouble. We didn't, you know, my dad had passed away, but when I was 9. I'm 13, we don't have a lot of money. And so the combination of, you know, my mom looking for something to keep me busy other than what was starting to keep me busy, led to my cousin's husband saying, well, I could take him for the, for the summer, you know, and, and he can live up here. We've got a house where the staff works and he can work there. So I start, I started as a busboy and you know, the, the feeling of making money for myself and being able to get things that I couldn't get. Things that most people would take for granted, but for me were big deal, you know, a basketball because my other one had, you know, was fl. Couldn't put any more air in. And so having money for that, a radio couldn't afford that, you know, so things like that to all of a sudden say, hey, I can take care of myself. And I made so much money that summer. It was a nice restaurant and I made so much money that was even able to help my a little bit, you know, and, and do something. So anyway, the long story but was that if that feeling of independence and at that point is where I said I'm not going to be poor, I am going to make sure that I'm not going to be poor. I'm getting out of here, I'm going to be able to take care of myself. That was the beginning.
- [04:02]
B
Isn't it funny, man, how some people can have like two people can have the same exact experience and walk away with two different stories? Yeah, like I'm sure at the same time there was another busboy in another area basically just complaining about having to go to work and upset about their job. And you know what I mean? It's just like, and like you can complain and I know we probably did a little bit of that as well as a 13 year old. But you know, it's just funny how some people like you. The point is wherever you are, be there and do it the best that you possibly can, you know, because you
- [04:30]
A
never know what's around the corner and enjoy what you're doing. Yeah. I mean, like, there's something of just saying, you know, I've. I've always kind of looked at it at any job I had, starting with that one a little bit. Like, I looked at playing ball where it's say I'm. I want to win, you know, and I'm playing with other people and I feel good when they're doing something good because it's helping us win, you know, So I. For whatever reason, that's always been my prism for every job. So I've never. Look, there are some days where you're like, God damn it, that was not a good day. But, you know, my attitude. I tell people all the time, the attitude's a big deal. Has always been, go in, kick ass at whatever you're doing. If you don't like what you're doing, go find something else you like to do and go kick your ass at that. But the kicking ass, the showing up and kicking ass is the thing. That's right, the thing. Yeah.
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B
And it's not to. It's not to imply that you're never going to have those bad days. Right. Like, work is still work, even if you love what you do. There's going to be some shitty days. There's going to be some, like, bad
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A
news days in life. Work and not work. Right there. Life throws that at you. There are some days and. And Right. You know, I think that, you know, good life is, you know, you had a decent batting average in that. More good than bad. But, yeah, both sides of it. Work, play.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Home life. There's hopefully more good days than bad. But everyone has a bad day.
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B
Exactly. But you get to decide what to focus on.
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A
That's.
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B
That's really the big deal. And it sounds like you decided to focus on the good things, the positives. Where did that take you of, like, college age? What were you trying to do? What were you wanting to do? What. What did you think your life was going to look like at that young age?
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A
Well, so as I mentioned, I was starting to get up in trouble at 13. The work gave it respites. It didn't really take it away. I was still getting into a lot of trouble. Almost flunked out of high school. I went to the same high school my mom taught at small private school. She wanted to keep me out of the public school system. Not that that helped all that much. But in any event, I wasn't going to go to college. My. I Didn't know what I was going to do. My mom, unknown to me, filled out an application to UConn. We were living in Bridgeport at the time. The state school here. I get a thing in the mail, it says I've been accepted. I'm like, you know, what the hell is this? I never applied here. I haven't applied anywhere. My mom said I did. I was pissed as hell. I said, well, I'm not going. And she said, well, that's fine. What, there's no place else for you to live? You know, at that point, I was, you know, I didn't have a room. I had a cot that we'd open up in the living room. And she's like, we can't keep doing this. So, yeah, you're an adult, so if you don't want to go to college, that's great, but you got to go get your own place.
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B
But you can't stay here.
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A
Yeah, but you can't stay here. Best thing she did, it sent me off to UConn. Not that I got straight out, like right away, but I met my wife when I was a sophomore, met a bunch of great friends along the way that I'm still friends with today almost 40 years later. And that just kind of began the pivot and a lot of that energy that I had as a 13 year old, not getting into trouble, working my ass off because I wanted to make money, to make sure I could provide for myself. You know, the second I hit kind of, you know, probably 21 or so, it was like then on accelerants and, you know, kind of that, that drive fueled me from there. I, I, I'd be lying if I said that I was inspired by some great cause when I was 22 or 23. For me it was, I need to make money and I'm going to make money and nobody's getting in my way to stop me. This episode is brought to you by Fox 1. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World cup live in 4K for just 19.99amonth, with 3 days free. Build your own multi view, choose up to three streams and follow players spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights and instant replays. The FIFA World cup streaming live on Fox One offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses setup required compatibility and availability various 18 plus from doing that.
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B
Yeah. Is that, I mean, the theme of your book too? Sometimes wrong but never in doubt. It's a very. I mean the title piques my interest because I find myself in doubt that especially when it comes to big decisions in life and I, I tend to second guess myself. I want to ask this person and that person and I want to read this book and I want to understand this, you know, potential risk a little bit more. Can you tell me a little bit about where that hook came from in your life? You feel like you've always been like that is something you had to learn along the way.
- [09:20]
A
Yeah, well, it's a. Well, that's a different question. Where it came from. I didn't come up with it. It was written in a performance review that I had early in my career. So it was an excellent review. I read it the night before because a guy who's going to give it, give me the review gave it to me. I ended up getting promoted, in fact. But there was that line in there which when I read it, my first thought is, oh, that's. He's telling me that they're not happy, that I'm a little. I'm brash, I'm a little bit irreverent. That's not going over well. That's what I thought it was.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So we go in, we have the interview, we're talking and he get. And I, he didn't mention. I say, hey Bob, do me a favor. Like what did you mean by that? Why is that in there? And he goes, oh. And he said, oh, well. Came from a book I was reading. It reminded me of you. The book was a Harvard surgeon who had said that great surgeons needed to be are. Are sometimes wrong, but never in doubt. And the reason, because if you have doubt when you're trying to do this incredibly difficult thing, you will fail much more often than not. And then he talked about that the way the, the confidence that the surgeons get comes from the work they put into their craft. And so Bob said, he ready goes. I thought of you. He goes, because you do so much work to, you know, before you move forward so that you have multiple plans, you know exactly where you want to go. And he goes. And you do it with such confidence and conviction. And he said to me, he Goes, it's because you do the work. He said, the conviction comes from the work. If it's coming from your personality, then that's a problem, because then that is overconfidence, and that's where people get reckless and make mistakes. So that was, you know, he was pointing something out that if you now to your question of where did that come from? I think some of that's temperament. I don't think some of it's what I saw at home. You know, my dad and mom escaped the Cuban communist country and left with nothing on their back and made this wonderful life for themselves till my dad passed away. But my mom continued and, you know, and they did it. I never heard one complaint. I only heard optimism about the future. So I think some of it's temperament, some of what is what I saw. But what that guy did to me in that room that day is he put a light on about what he was recognizing that drove the success, which was the spade work that nobody saw beforehand. And so I amplified that, you know, from then on out. I was telling somebody the other day, you know, they were asking, well, how is it you guys are investors? How is it to work with you? And I said, look, look, here's the way I describe it. I plan peacefully and I execute violently. And what that means is I am thoughtful, quiet, and introspective. When the planning is happening, when the deep thinking is happening, once the decision is made and I have the confidence of where we're going, then it's move aggressively and on offense all the time. And then you adapt and adjust is why you have multiple plans. But anyway, it's an interesting thing of where it came from. It actually inspired me. And as I was writing the book, it came back to me and I said, yeah, that's the title, because it is. It was one of those moments where it kind of amplified a path that I was starting to go down, but it really pushed it forward.
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B
Yeah, you got a little bit of early validation that this is okay to be this way.
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A
And actually a mental model around which to me was also equally important. It was like, oh, that's the way to think about this. Right. And. And. And that it was, you know, it's one of those moments because otherwise you're going on instinct and what you just naturally do. And it hadn't been something I had thought about. And that, to me, was really important to me.
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B
Is there a. A spectrum of decision types where this matters more or less? Like. Like you have a completely reversible inconsequential decision. Right. All the way over here on the left. And then you have completely irreversible, very consequential decision all the way over here on the right. How do you balance those things and move with certainty depending on the type of scenario that you're involved in?
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A
Well, that's great. I have. I was defaulting to that second scenario. The ones that are big and difficult to reverse.
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B
Okay.
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A
On the other ones, the ones that are reversible, you know, Jeff Bezos has a great quote about doors. You can walk in and back out of those you move quickly and frankly, less of a batting average on guy on those things. I'd rather do more things and give my chance more chances for success and take the failures along the way if they're not cataclysmic.
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B
Consequential.
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A
Yeah, yeah, that's right. On the big ones. Look, the biggest thing I ever did was at wwe, right? We took a business that was a live event, North American business, and pivoted completely and made massive investments to make that happen. So there was a financial risk, your own career risk, and the ridicule from outside because everyone said you couldn't do it. Yeah. Why did we do it? Because of that work. We spent a year and a half mapping out exactly what we were going to do, how we would reverse things that were very consequential. So how did we create a door to come back in, out? That, to me, is the example of that second type of decision, which is are the big ones. And you need conviction in those. Right. Because those are hard, which means you will have little failures along the way. Even if you get the big success, people will be around you telling you that what you're doing is wrong. Because if it's big, it's not the status quo. And so the only way to deal with the eventual swamp of despair that you will find yourself in is to have that confidence and conviction. The sometimes wrong, but never in doubt and have done the work to get you through the tough time. I always said people can bullshit. Confidence and conviction until you hit the reality. Right. When you hit the swamp you can't get out of. Everybody's a tough guy until punches are being thrown and then you see people. Some people stay in the middle of the fight and some people run for the exits. So to push through, to be willing to stay in the fight, you have to have the conviction. And the only way you get true conviction, not bs, not bluster, is doing the work.
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B
Yes, that old Mike Tyson quote. Everybody's got a Plan until you get punched in the face. Yes.
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A
Isn't that true for those of us who have been in fist fights? I. When I heard that quote, I was already, you know, I was like, I definitely get it. Both in boardroom and, you know, on the street. Been in both. That's right. Everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face.
- [16:03]
B
So tell me, tell me about your time with the wwe, George, comparatively. Because, I mean, your. Your career was not lackluster before this, right? I mean, Time Warner and HBO and New York Times and all these different media and organizations and things like that. What brought you into the wwe? What. What made you, like, what piqued your interest about it? And how was that time?
- [16:20]
A
Yeah, you know, it's. At the time I was at the New York Times company and when I told people that I had taken the role at wwe, every single person, even people have always supported me and said, hey, you know, you've got to. You've been making good decisions. That it was. I was making the biggest mistake of my life. One of my mentors, who I really respect, that said, this is a potential career killer. This is one of those wow doors. I remember when I first got the call, they were recruiting. I was looking for a public company CFO that to me was going to be the springboard to a CEO. Guy calls me, says, george, I got public, profitable, you know, as a bonus, it's kind of in. In. In Connecticut. And I said, boy, that's great. What is it? He said, wwe, this is a guy for, you know, from Spencer Stewart, one of the biggest recruiting firms in the world. They were doing the search. I go, so what's that? And. And he goes, you know, the wrestling, World wrestling. And I go, what do you mean, the wrestling? He goes, you know, the. He goes. I go, you mean the tv? And I go, are you. You know, are you fucking kidding me? That's what calling me for. He looked, he said on the phone, it was great line. He said, george, you're always telling me that you care about the data and you'll figure out the path. You know, don't give me your opinions. I said, true. He goes, do you know anything about wwe? I said, no. He goes, so how are you making up your mind? I said, it's a good point. Let me go do the work. Did the work. Long story short, join do the. You know, the massive transformation where we go direct to consumer, invest heavily in data and analytics to support this digital and social strategy. 7x the media rights of the bit I mean, just totally blow up the company and then finally merge it with ufc into a $20 billion behemoth. So that was, you know, that was the journey. And somebody said, you know, the, comparatively, was it that different than any else, any place you've been? Not really. Not in the day to day. You're still doing the same kind of thing. You're solving problems. That's what business is in different contexts. You know, it could be a manufacturing company, could be an entertainment company, could be a sports company, but you're solving problems and different, bringing people together to solve those problems for your customers, your fans. So that wasn't the difference. The difference was is that, and I'd be lying if I said I knew the size of the opportunity, but got in, did the work to try to understand it. And I said, holy shit. You know, if we can, if we can implement this plan, you know, this is, this isn't a home run, it's a grand slam opportunity. But it was a typical journey. You know, we got criticized by the media. Some guy wrote, and I think it was Forbes, I forgot where, you know, they should throw George and Michelle, who's the co president with me, off the top of the building. These guys are, you know, messing this up so bad now. Same guy three years later said this was the greatest business transformation he'd ever seen. So.
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B
Right, of course, yeah, yeah, getting through
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A
that, you know, that was three years. Right. We did the work, the execution, hit the bumps. Getting through the bumps. We called it the, the or we, you know, we took it from someone, the swamp of despair. To me, it's the best analogy for the part of the journey where you're at your lowest when you're trying to do something big. But I found a great partner came along. I said, we came up with a great plan and we brought people along on the, on the journey with us. So yes, it's, it was the best. Yeah, it's the best part of my professional life.
- [19:40]
B
Yeah, no kid, I mean, you were there for 12ish years and then left for a little bit and then came back to basically help with the merger. Getting to a great idea is hard in college. Nonsensical essays, cringe inducing presentations, and seemingly unsolvable problem sets. But then the first thought becomes a final thesis. Jumbled slides transform into a polished keynote. And that midterm assignment gets a lot less middle because the road to great ideas is littered with bad ones. You just have to keep going until something clicks. Great ideas start on Mac. Find out more on apple.com college this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like thinking your crush messaged you back, but it's just your roommate asking for rent. You wouldn't settle for a disappointing dm, so don't settle for just any insurance. Insurance. When it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is a real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
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A
That's right.
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B
And if I'm not mistaken, the merger, it was also acquired by wme. No.
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A
Well, it was a little bit of a, you know, not to get too much into the financial arcana, but Endeavor, WME, the public company, is a 50 owner of UFC. They contributed that ownership into a new company that WWE went into, in essence, and created a new company that half owned by a little bit over half owned by Endeavor and less than half by, well, now public shareholders, for the most part.
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B
Got it.
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A
So that was. That was the structure. Yeah, it was, you know, the prologue of the book. As we, you know, the story of, you know, Vince dramatically fired Michelle and I at the, you know, in early 2020, and nobody knew why. The stock got cratered when it was announced that we were leaving, and everybody had their own, you know, view of what really happened. I tell a story in the book. In fact, the prologue is him calling me back, you know, he calls me late 22, you know, and says, hey, you know, long conversation, says, can you come back? You know, I. We're. I. I want to do something big, you know, hard. I want to do something big. I want to do something. Leaving a legacy. Yeah, you help me do that. I need the A team. And, you know, and I said I would. And then we came back in the biggest, you know, engineered the biggest merger in sports in the history of sports. So, yeah, that was a lot of fun. And then today, I continue to invest. We're up board members and investors in Global Sport Group, which is CBC Sports holding company. So. Okay, I continue to be in the space. You know, it's. I've had a lot of. A lot of fun along the way, and I've been really lucky to. To work with some great people.
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B
Yeah, I was gonna say sports can be a really fun and exciting place to work, but it's somewhat, I would say, rare to actually make good money doing it. You know what I mean? Like. Like, it's sort of like the place where people were, like, already really rich people go just to, like, have fun with their money is like, let's go buy A sports.
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A
I don't think that's true, actually. I think if you've looked at anybody who's invested in sports over the last 10 years, they've done incredibly well. I think you're pointing to, you know, people will point and say, well, where's the, is the intrinsic, is the intrinsic value the cash flow support the valuations or is it a trophy asset? We think it's the former more than the latter, although the latter is a nice floor. So I will tell you this, and people have been saying this for 30 years and I think it's because they just don't understand the math of the media and entertainment industry. If you invest in sports today, even at the valuations you're seeing, you're going
- [23:07]
B
to make money just because they continue to get popular.
- [23:11]
A
They're the most popular. And as though as the world of content fragments and even if you're getting less eyeballs when you have that much of a center of gravity and it's built around something that's not asynchronous, that people watch at the same time. So it drives community, all of that, not to turn it into a sports business, all of that. Not only does it create all the value that's been created, it will get more powerful over the ensuing 10 years because there will be even more content fragmentation, which gives the center of gravity, which nothing like there is nothing like sports in that regard. And that's so long lived. Yeah, you will do well.
- [23:49]
B
I appreciate that perspective. That's really helpful to hear because I had Lee Steinberg on the show last week. The, you know, Jerry Maguire guy was a, he sort of like, you know, invented the sports agency model. But that's what he was sort of talking a little bit about that mostly in regards to the NFL in particular. But yeah, it's funny hearing from, from another expert in that space and thinking like, oh, you know what, all the people I've talked to now I can see how that would actually be accurate over like if you, if you hold it for enough time, you know, like sports continues to get more popular, population growth continues to expand.
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A
Billionaire growth is, you know, whether you like it or not is growing faster than the population, which means there's more demand than supply to the trophy value element. You have a limited number of supply of elite franchise, maybe there's 300 in the world. Yeah, billionaires are doubling every six or seven years.
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B
That's a great point to bring up the, the, the fractured content piece because even like movies and television are getting hit harder by that with like in terms of YouTube or TikTok or whatever else. But sports.
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A
Sports doesn't really get affected by not. I'm not a big investor in scripted and unscripted entertainment because of that. That. That is. There is going to be a significant. There's already been right. User generated content. What was a huge influx of supply. Right. You're going to. It's not even going to be 10 or 100x. It's got now there'll be a million x of the amount of scripted and unscripted content available versus today. Now look, I do think provenance and the human element in the creation of it is going to matter more over time. But that's the point is sports has all that endemically it doesn't need to do it. It is that it's only humans. There is no, there's AI around it. The, the data, the visuals that to make it. But ultimately it's the ultimate human providence. It can only be created by humans.
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B
That's going to be valuable and it's supercharged by community.
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A
You know my buddy, multigenerational, tribal.
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B
You know my buddy Chris Van Vliet is a big wrestling podcaster, one of the top guys out there and he, he. I just went to a live event of his because WrestleMania was in Vegas recently, which is where I'm based and he had a live event coming up for. And I just, I went over just to say what's up? And it was like, dude, you got like a sold out live podcast audience of like 700 people just like sitting here listening to a podcast or talk about wrestling. They're all going to the wrestling thing the next day and it was just like this is crazy. Like the fandom, the community, the just like the instant rapport that's built because you're wearing a T shirt with the same face as the guy that I'm wearing. You know what I mean? Like it's, it, it is crazy. I never thought about that. I appreciate that.
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A
And it's multi generational. You know you talked about the horizontal relationships, your friend, but there's the vertical. It's parents with their kids getting into. I mean it, it's, it's a great thing.
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B
So.
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A
And it's a great fit.
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B
So last question here for you, George, and I'll get you out of here. What was it like working with Vince McMahon versus any of the other, you know, CEOs or leadership that you've worked with?
- [26:44]
A
Yeah, it was the, the most difficult thing is unlike what his public Persona was, you Know, the guy I worked with for 12 years never raises voice, is, is introspective to this point of being, you know, incredibly, almost introverted. So what the most difficult thing is getting things out of Vince. You know, where I'm more of an extrovert, I think out loud, he's the opposite. So those are two different personal approaches that, you know, kind of working through that was difficult. So it took us a while. Frank, that was the, the hardest thing. And I always said the thing that I really respected about him is, you know, I saw some things, the way he behaved and I said, look, you know, I, I need to do better in that. Incredibly respectful of everyone. You know, any meeting, he's always putting his chair back in, he's shaking everyone's hand. You know, he would get, you know, almost accosted when we went to meetings with him in the city, right? Everybody's coming up to him. He was always stopping and, and, and, you know, taking the self, taking a photo. He just treated every, everyone the same and with a, you know, with a, a real kind of deep level of respect. So anyway, I, I would say that to me, was one of the things I liked being around.
- [28:05]
B
George, I appreciate you taking the time out. I know you're a very busy guy. I don't take that for granted. If you're listening right now, you owe it to yourself and to those around you to go pick up a copy of his new book, Sometimes Wrong but Never in Doubt. And you've heard about his story here, you know how qualified he is to talk about these types of things. And it's something I'm definitely going to be picking up because it's an area that I struggle in personally. So, George, appreciate you taking the time to write that book, to get it out there. I know you can just go retire and chill and not have to do anything if you don't want to. So I appreciate you choosing to make an impact and write a book like this and distill all of the lessons and wisdom that you have into a couple hundred pages. It's really helpful for all of us out here trying to make our way. So appreciate you, everybody else tuning in. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace.
- [28:52]
A
You can't reason with the sun. Trust us. We've tried this summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your summer@columbia.com to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.