INTERVIEW | Make Money by Building Innovation That Scales, feat. Linda Hill, Jason Wild, and Emily C. Tedards

Summary

---

Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Travis Makes Money
Host: Travis Chappell
Episode: INTERVIEW | Make Money by Building Innovation That Scales, feat. Linda Hill, Jason Wild, and Emily C. Tedards
Air Date: March 18, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the concept of building sustainable, scalable innovation within organizations—how leaders and teams can rally together to turn ideas into reality, not just once, but repeatedly at scale. Travis interviews Linda Hill (Harvard Business School professor and leading expert on innovation), Jason Wild (innovation executive with experience at IBM, Microsoft, Salesforce), and Emily Tedards (doctoral researcher at Harvard) about their new book, Genius at Scale. The conversation explores actionable strategies for entrepreneurship, leadership, and cross-generational collaboration in a fast-changing business world.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis and Purpose of Genius at Scale [02:12]

• Linda Hill: The book is about creating organizations that innovate “time and again at scale” and actually execute on those innovations, moving beyond idea generation to realization.
• Quote:

  “Too often we see that people come up with great ideas, but they never get launched, they never get commercialized. So our book really focuses on that problem.”
  — Linda Hill [02:12]

2. How the Authors Came Together [02:32–06:36]

• Jason describes his practitioner background and longstanding collaboration with Linda, stemming from when he was leading innovation at IBM and their mutual interest in the “messy, non-linear side of innovation."

• Emily recounts her unique journey, from financially supporting herself as a nanny to landing a research job via Care.com, which serendipitously launched her academic and professional career in organizational research at Harvard.

• The team values diverse backgrounds and generational perspectives as essential to producing authentic and comprehensive research.

  Memorable Moment:

  “The first time we met, we were scheduled for like a half hour interview and it lasted three hours.”
  — Emily Tedards [07:31]

3. Building Teams & Opportunities through Networks [08:07–14:19]

• Linda stresses the importance of former team members recommending new ones—matching not for similarity but for the right complementary mindset and values.
• She encourages being open to serendipity and relationships:

  "When you connect with someone, take that very seriously... Those are people that—you don't know it yet—but the book, we have fun. This was all a very, very hard book to write."
  — Linda Hill [12:00]

4. The Nuts and Bolts of Scaling Innovation [14:20–19:02]

• Jason highlights the difference between theoretical business books and their practice-grounded work, sharing a favorite case: the story of Avatar N—two young engineers at ANA (Japan’s #1 airline) who started with the question, "Why can't humans teleport?" and ended up building a global movement for robotic avatars.

• The lesson: transformative ideas and ecosystems often begin with small, passionate teams—“a coalition of the willing”—not just corporate mandates.

  Quote:

  “Anybody can ignite a movement.”
  — Jason Wild [18:58]

5. Leading Across Generations & Younger Talent [20:32–27:10]

• Reacting to negative stereotypes about Gen Z in the workplace, Emily argues against generalizations and stresses structural, cultural adjustments instead. Organizations benefit by including both legacy and new perspectives in significant decision-making, as seen in hospitals’ response to COVID.

• Linda expands on this with the concept of co-creation—great leaders architect environments for others to help “co-create the future” and act as architects, bridgers, and catalysts, not just visionaries.

• Accountability and clarity remain critical, but successful innovation is collaborative and inclusive.

  Quote:

  “The mindset of co-creation is very different from a followership mindset. And I find that the Gen Zs respond well to co-creation.”
  — Linda Hill [23:39]

6. Practical Advice for Aspiring Innovators & Leaders [27:27–28:49]

• Leading innovation is NOT about having all the answers, but about channeling collective abilities towards a common goal.
• New technologies and uncertain environments make adaptable, cross-disciplinary teams even more important. Younger workers, especially, thrive in co-creative and accountable cultures.

7. Recommended Reads for Modern Leadership [28:49–33:14]

Each guest shares a must-read resource on leadership and innovation besides their own book:

• Jason Wild:

  • Reshuffle by Sangeet Paul Choudary.

    “Will AI take my job? is the wrong question... Reshuffle is the best book that I've seen that really understands, at a macro level, what's going on.” [29:22]

  • Selling is Hard. Buying is Even Harder (added later for practitioners) [33:14]

• Emily Tedards:

  • Deep Purpose by Ranjay Gulati ("the surprising science of courage") [30:25]
    (Possible Title Correction: She refers to Gulati's book on courage, likely "Deep Purpose" rather than "How to Be Bold")

    “Courage is a huge topic...these Avatar N leaders...had the courage to put themselves on the VP of Strategies calendars without asking any assistance.”

• Linda Hill:

  • Creativity Inc. by Ed Catmull (Pixar co-founder), new edition [31:21].
  • The Octopus Organization by Jana Warner and Phil Labrune [31:21]

    “Why our organizations need to be structured more like an octopus. Yes, there is a center, but each tentacle also can work on its own.”

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Partnership:

  "Some advice for people...when you connect with someone, take that very seriously."
  — Linda Hill [12:00]

• On Leadership Mindset:

  “It’s not about getting people to follow you to the future. It’s about getting people both inside and outside your organization to want to co-create the future with you.”
  — Linda Hill [23:39]

• On Courage:

  “Fortune favors the bold. And it seems like anything great that was ever accomplished started with somebody who had a little bit of courage.”
  — Travis Chappell [31:11]

• On Sound, Practical Research:

  “Lots of times business books...can be somewhat academic...a good tool to help you go to sleep. And so I had no interest in writing a book...just another business book.”
  — Jason Wild [14:39]

---

Key Timestamps

• 02:12 — Linda introduces the premise of Genius at Scale
• 02:53 — Jason describes the team’s origins and partnership
• 05:52 — Emily shares her journey from nannying to research at Harvard
• 08:07 — Linda on how she chooses team members and the importance of networks
• 14:20 — Travis asks about surprises in the research process
• 14:39 — Jason details the Avatar N story (ANA’s unlikely innovation)
• 20:32 — Discussion on leading and retaining younger generations
• 23:39 — Linda explains the difference between followership and co-creation in leadership
• 29:22 — Rapid-fire: Book recommendations on modern leadership and innovation

---

Takeaways

• Innovation at scale is rare but achievable when both organizational systems and leadership behaviors foster repeated, actionable breakthroughs—not just creative thinking.
• Relationships and team composition matter more than rigid credentials—diversity of mindset, experience, and authentic connection enable breakthrough results.
• Co-creation, not top-down visioning, is the modern leadership paradigm—leaders are architects, bridgers, and catalysts.
• The best leaders are relentless about learning, accountability, and fostering psychological safety—and they actively invite younger voices to the table.
• Movements and lasting innovation typically start with passionate individuals and coalitions—not just brands or budgets.

---

Resources Mentioned

• Genius at Scale by Linda Hill, Jason Wild, and Emily Tedards
• Reshuffle by Sangeet Paul Choudary
• Deep Purpose by Ranjay Gulati
• Creativity Inc. by Ed Catmull
• The Octopus Organization by Jana Warner and Phil Labrune
• Selling is Hard. Buying is Even Harder (for sales and go-to-market transformation)

---

For further actionable insights and stories from innovators of all backgrounds, check out Genius at Scale and tune in to more episodes of the Travis Makes Money podcast.

Transcript

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host]

This episode is brought to you by indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate. C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.

Com.

For a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis.

What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's a mission to help you all make some more money. Today on the show, I am talking to three new friends of mine. That's right, three people, all at the same time. Talking about one core concept here. And I'll kind of just go one by one through them. First off, we have Linda hill. She's a PhD, a professor at Harvard Business School, and is globally recognized as a top leadership and innovation expert. It's been named by Thinkers50 as one of the world's top five management thinkers, number four in 2025. Then we have Jason Wild. Jason's a founder and principal at Wild Innovation and former global Vice President of CEO co Innovation and Customer engagement over at Microsoft. And part of that, he was the Senior VP of transformation and Innovation at Salesforce. So a little bit of, I don't know if you've heard of those companies, but they've been doing some pretty big things. And then last have Emily Tedards, who's a graduate researcher in organizational behavior at Harvard Business School and a doctoral fellow with Harvard Kennedy Schools Reimagining the Economy Initiative. And then together recently, they wrote a new book called Genius at Scale, which is all about new leadership in how to succeed in today's environment as a leader. Linda, Emily, Jason, thank you so much for taking the time to join me on the show today.

[Linda Hill]

My pleasure.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Let's go ahead and jump in here with the, with the book Genius at Scale. Linda, can you give us a breakdown? First off, why this book? Why now? As all the stuff that you guys do, you can write a book about whatever you want to write a book about. So why this topic? Why is it relevant now?

[Linda Hill]

In our book, we really focus on how do you build an organization that can innovate time and again, and innovate time and again at Scale not only generate an innovative solution, but frankly make it a reality. And too often we see that people come up with great ideas, but they never get launched, they never get commercialized. So our book really focuses on that problem.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

So Jason, can you tell me how you three came together on this project? It's sort of, you can sort of draw lines between Emily and Linda being both associated with Harvard Business School, and then you're sort of over here as the third guy in the party. So tell me exactly. You know, we explore the topic of relationships and networking pretty often here on the show. So I'm curious how this partnership came together.

[Jason Wild]

Yeah, for sure, Travis. It's okay. You can call me the third wheel. I believe it or not, I met Linda over 10 years ago when I was leading innovation at IBM. Linda was finishing up her last book, Collective Genius with her other co authors. We got introduced and you know, as a practitioner at that time I had been leading projects for IBM around the world, from Uganda to Singapore and of course the US almost 40 countries. And I always enjoyed talking to academics and analysts. But there's something about Lindu that was just very different in the first conversation because you know, innovation, leadership, these are really interesting, sexy topics that attract a lot of interest in wannabes. But Linda was the first person outside of like the practitioner community that I had met that like really understood kind of the messy, non linear side of how difficult it really is to innovate, whether you're a large company or even a startup. So I felt like we hit, hit it off from that first conversation. We stayed in touch. I think as Linda's explained it, I was an unnamed contributor to the last book and then soon thereafter, like prolific. One book, Golden Gate bridge painting, you start the next one. So when Linda invited me on this journey, it was I guess the Gilligan's island version of book writing. In my head I had like two, three years and we'll have a book done and here we are almost 10 years later and earlier this week we published our book and we're still friends. And in the middle of this, obviously got to meet Emily. I'd say about five or six years ago. And in Linda's words, it's very important to her, it's to us to. We have a diverse team, different generations, different perspectives. And so yeah, I'm the practitioner of the group and it's been a great opportunity because you know, my world is project to project, right? You know, you get a project, it's exciting. You go down a rabbit hole, you finish that project, and it's, you wait for the next project. So it was really enriching in so many different ways for me as a leader, as a person to kind of slow down, step back, reflect, and kind of understand what can I learn from others as we were studying them to help me be a better leader and, and, and obviously learn so much. And I'm so blessed and privileged to have met Emily and Linda.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I love the, I love the combination of the two worlds where you sort of bring the like, philosophy and the practitioner experience together into one cultivated, well rounded piece of material, rather than, you know, a practitioner who's just giving anecdotal evidence versus a researcher who hasn't like touched and felt and, and, and done the thing, you know what I mean? And then we kind of put together both of those things into a single book, which is an awesome project. Emily, tell me about your involvement here. Obviously, I'm assuming you and Linda met somehow through Harvard, but you were the, the, the third person brought onto this project. Tell me about your experience.

[Emily Tedards]

Yeah, so I arrived at Harvard in 2019 by way of care.com, really a lucky break on care.com I was nannying before, after college, and this was my first real job. So I joined the team as a 24 year old. I had never been exposed to a business, I had never worked for a firm, I had never met a CEO. And this was just eye opening and life changing in every which way. Being able to do this ethnographic research with Linda across the globe, finding myself in boardrooms, in corporate offices, coming from, you know, Tucson, Arizona, it was just, it was absolutely incredible. And it's been the utmost privilege to be able to collaborate with Linda and Jason on this project.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

How did you get your foot in

[Emily Tedards]

the door from that, from care.com yeah. Well, so this is a show about entrepreneurship. So I financially supported myself through college. And so I found that nannying in New York City was very lucrative. And so I did that and I did a master's degree right afterwards. And when I was applying for jobs, I applied for over 150 jobs after my master's degree and I was rejected from all of them. So I needed to make money in the meantime. So I started nannying again. I signed up for care.com and the first job interview I had, this woman invited me to her house and I walked in the door and she said, hey, actually I don't want you to watch my kids. I saw your CV and I saw you were doing this research at LSE and I want to hire you for a research project.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

What?

[Emily Tedards]

So that led to this crazy three months of my life, this series of events that ultimately led me to Harvard Business School because of a paper I had to look at for the research project.

[Linda Hill]

No way.

[Emily Tedards]

And then I, luckily, at the time, I was harassing HR at HBS to see if they had any full time roles, and this one with Linda opened up and it was, yeah, it was kind of a match made in heaven. The first time we met, we were scheduled for like a half hour interview and it lasted three hours. And we bonded over all these things. And I was so worried because I had to get back to New York on a bus that afternoon. And I remember being so stressed out about getting back. But yeah. So anyways, that day absolutely changed my life. And I am thankful to care.com and the wonderful people I met through that.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, I guess you could say that. Linda, I'm curious. From your perspective, what made you, what made you choose? Obviously, you, you had no shortage of people that you could bring onto a project like this. Being as tenured as you are, having the resume that you had, what made you, you know, for, for somebody who's listening, I'm trying to, like, put them in Emily's chair. As somebody who's just like, man, I, I, I checked all the boxes. I did everything I thought I was supposed to do. The job market is not rewarding me to the degree that I thought that it was supposed to be rewarding me. How do I put myself in a position to get these types of opportunities? What is it that you saw in Emily that made it to where it's like, light bulb moment. We have to bring her on this project?

[Linda Hill]

Well, there are two things I should say. The first thing I should say is I have been very, very blessed to have wonderful research associates. And so Emily was my research associate. But I don't let them leave until they hire their replacement. So they are all. Before I met Emily, my current research associate had met Emily and said, this is the one for you. So I have figured out I may not be the easiest person to work with, and I kind of think in crazy ways. So she had been interviewed by my former research associate.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

This episode of the show is brought

to you by Mars Men. So look, guys, I don't know if everybody listening knows this, but a couple years ago, I was diagnosed with cancer. And around that time, I also noticed that my testosterone levels were dropping like crazy. And I know that some of it was due to the fact that my body was sort of in disarray. But then I also learned through this experience that most men start losing testosterone levels around the age of 30. And then it starts just getting worse and worse after that. About 1% every year after that. So what I learned during this is that basically your body makes testosterone but a lot of it gets locked up and can't be used. So there's this protein called SHBG that basically handcuffs your testosterone. So even if your body's making testosterone shg, SHBG locks it up so you can't access it. It's like having money in the bank, but your debit card doesn't work. So Mars Men is designed to help free locked testosterone so your body can actually use it. No synthetics, no, no needles. Just real ingredients that help optimize energy, focus and strength. And since I started taking stuff like this, I noticed increased physical performance, especially recovery in the gym, which as I am getting older I'm starting to realize is a real thing. I, I have to like stretch a lot more, I have to like take breaks more, I have to have rest days and things like that. And, and Marsman has helped me to be able to recover a little bit faster. Plus more consistent natural energy. It's different than having a cup of coffee or an energy drink or something. It's a steadier sense of drive throughout the entire day. It supports healthy T levels, energy and stamina with eight natural clinically dosed ingredients made in the USA and third party tested. Plus it's got a 30 day money back guarantee so there is absolutely no risk to you. Worst case, you don't absolutely love it and you get your money back. But over 91% of users report higher energy levels. Thousands and thousands of guys are feeling incredible results from this. So just check out the reviews on the website to see for yourself. For a limited time our listeners get 50% off. That's 5, 0 50% off for life. Plus free shipping and three free gifts@men gotomars.com that's men gotomars.com for 50% off and three free gifts. When you check out after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. Just please support our show and tell them that we sent you you. That's mengotomars.com so good, so good, so good.

[Nordstrom Rack Ad Host]

Spring styles are at Nordstrom Rack stores now and they're up to 60% off. Stock up and save on Rag and Bone, Madewell, Vince, All Saints and more of your favorites.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

How did I not know Rack has Adidas?

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host]

Why do we rack for the hottest deals. Just so many good brands.

[Nordstrom Rack Ad Host]

Join the Nordic Club to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack who had sort

[Linda Hill]

of vetted her and brought her into so, you know, I trust, I trust my former research associate. We still work together on things and I dedicated the last book to my research associates because without them I couldn't be who I am today. They are marvelous. And you sit down with, I'm going to call you a young person at the time and you just listen to how they think. And when you talk to Emily, you discover very quickly how she's just a, she's a wise person and she's unbelievably brilliant and she's fun. So when I sort of begin to feel that if the conversation can go on for three hours and I'm thinking, boy, this is a person of integrity and you know, look at what she's done, look at how she thinks, look at what she wants to accomplish with her life. I'm very, I, I'm open. You don't have to be open. You immediately will become aware of that about Emily. But again, she had already been vetted by my research associate. The one before her is also brilliant, really wise and also just a lot of fun. So I only want to work with people that I enjoy. And as Jason said, I met him a while ago. Some advice for people if you want to find, you know, don't do work if you can. We are not all blessed that way. But when you connect with someone, take that very seriously because. And those are people that you believe me. The book we, we have fun. This was all a very, very hard book to write. We use the methods of anthropology to do our work. And so one of the reasons it took so long is we wanted to study leaders all around the world in a whole RA range of industries and government, et cetera. So we had to travel together to collect the data and we had lots of what we call creative abrasion. That is, you know, to get really have to have competition of ideas, you have to be able to really have constructive debate. And we have diversity of thought here because of how we're different and in so many ways. And I think that Emily, you know, a three hour conversation, Allison had already had one with her and said, this is someone I think you're going to like. And then again, Emily picked her successor, Lydia. And same way an unbelievably Marvelous person as well.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

That is an awesome way to find new people, is to have people who already know what it's like to work with you. Go find somebody who's like them to continue to work with you.

[Linda Hill]

Well, no, they're all very different, so don't make them be like them. But someone who knows you well enough to know what you need better than you know what you need. Right. So that's the way I would kind of put it. Yep.

[Jason Wild]

Yep. Yeah.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Jason, I'm curious, from your perspective researching this book as a practitioner, was there anything that you found in just interesting data sets or a study that you found, a story that you found that you thought was maybe. Maybe the antithesis to what the book was? Anything that was surprising that came up in the research to put this book together?

[Jason Wild]

Yeah, no, there were definitely, I think, lots of brain turns and surprises. I mean, for one, I'm a parent, and. And if they're listening, and they might be, I love all of my kids. And similarly in the book, I love all of the chapters. And I think one of the things that makes the way that we approach the book very unique is, you know, lots of times business books, for me as a practitioner, they can be really theoretical. They can be somewhat academic. They can be, literally or figuratively, a good tool to help you go to sleep. And so I had no interest in writing a book, let alone a book that was going to be just another business book. And having known Linda and a little bit of the formula of what she did in her previous books, part of what really connected with me as a practitioner is it reminded me a lot of, like, the. The best workshops that we would have with clients, and you have these senior leaders and. And it kind of became a bit of the principles of our book. Right. And what I mean by that is, of course, the content has to be relevant. It has to inspire them. But we live in a world where there's a fire alert, distractions all the time, every day, and we're literally in a war for people's attention. So the content has to be a bit entertaining, too, in a business proper way. Right. Or you're going to lose their attention. So I think part of how we wrote the book, I think, is, of course, it's very scholarly and it's grounded in a lot of research. And I think part of it that resonated with me as a practitioner is I've been a part of organizations where there are leaders who are in the right place at the right time, and they get a lot of the glory and I think part of just the approach of Emily and Linda, of literally studying these people in different contexts, often different roles over years and years and years to kind of filter out those people who were in the right place and maybe just running an organization and got lucky and really the exceptional leaders. So I think the one is my, the favorite of the favorite. And I think, and it's just a coincidence that I know you have a lot of listeners who are focused on small business and entrepreneurs. Is Avatar in Avatar N is a spin out of a Japanese airline. The number one airline in Japan. Ana think of it as the Delta United, right? So highly risk averse, regulated airline that basically wants to do two things, sell seats on planes and then get people from A to B. And you had two junior engineers, individual contributors who were very young in their career, no budget, no authority, kind of very unknown inside of the organization. They started with a question about, you know, why can't humans teleport? And they literally got laughed at. They realized that the technology is very far away. But it led them to a sharper question around why is it that only roughly 6% of the people in the world fly commercially every year and competitively we're in this like back alley knife fight trying to win market share over that 6% and instead, what if there's an opportunity to give mobility and some offerings to the other 94%? So they ended up igniting a global movement around avatars and arguably, in my opinion, the most humanistic robotics platform that exists. And we obviously tell the story, I think in great detail in the book. But to me, they built something intentionally that was bigger than them and part of their success was for it to continue and thrive without them, that they don't need to be involved. So I think it's a great story that in many ways is against all odds. And lots of people think of like ecosystems being the result of kingmaker alliances and really big company companies coming together and standardizing something. But what we learned is that these movements start with people and ideas that become a shared purpose and a coalition of the willing. And a result, you know, after their success, we start to associate the companies and the brands with those ecosystems. And I think that's a powerful, hopeful message, especially in this time, that if you really want to focus on it and you leverage yourself the right way, anybody can ignite a movement.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, that's awesome. I love that insight. Emily, I'm curious from your perspective, I want you to, I want you to talk about this headline that I saw recently. We actually did an episode about this recently on the show. It said something like, I believe it was 60% of recent gen Z graduates that were hired at companies that 60% of them were turned over within a couple of months. And it was sort of like this generic commentary on the younger generation. You know, of course, people throwing stones at the generation as a whole saying like, they're not willing to work, you know.

[Venmo Ad Host]

Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash Got paid back with the Venmo debit card you can instantly access your balance and spend on what you want, like game day, snacks, gear, tickets and more. The more you do, the more cash back you can earn. Plus, there's no monthly fee or minimum balance. Sign up [e-mail] collegecard the Venmo Mastercard is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA Select Schools available Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply at venmo me stashterms max $100 cash back per month.

[Red Bull Ad Host]

It's crunch time at work and you need to bring wings to your workday. Visit redbull.com gettingitdone and answer a couple questions about your work style to get a Spotify customized playlist tuned to your productivity. Plus, score a can of Red Bull on us while you go from to do to done. And remember, Red Bull gives you wings. Supplies are limited. Terms apply. Visit the website for more information.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

They don't take responsibility. They have poor written communication skills. All these other things. Is there anything in particular that you found that was helpful in the research that you uncovered on how to potentially help lead the new generation? Because I typically find that it's probably not the fault of an entire generation. There's probably just some leadership shifts that need, that need to happen in order to learn how to guide this new generation of, you know, to figure out what the motivation points are. Did you guys uncover anything in your research that's helped helpful for people that are considering that portion where they're just like, man, I'd love to bring these young people in organization. We just, we're not having an alignment of values here. We're not having an alignment of mission. Is there anything that you uncovered that could help people lead the younger generation?

[Emily Tedards]

I think we certainly see leaders trying more and more to collaborate across generations and they recognize the importance of doing that. I think some of the pitfalls that we see are one kind of this divide that emerges. You could call it potentially a class structure between like the new guard and the old guard, where like the legacy point of view is seen as the old protector of the status quo and the new perspective is maybe seen as naive or not prepared to contribute in some way. Yeah, yeah. And I think I generally disagree with any type of categorical generalization like that. If that's already in someone's mindset going into the workplace, I fear that can be very damaging. So what I would say is that first, the leaders that we, that we've worked with were really proactive about working across these generations and being sure to respect the value of both the legacy point of view and also the beginner's eye. And we, for example, we worked with hospital that during COVID made the explicit choice to, for their, for staffing their emergency preparedness committee through which they would centralize decisions. During, during COVID for the hospital, they made the explicit choice not to just put the seasoned people on the committee because they knew that that could be, that they would probably share similar blind spots and that there would be a benefit from having the diversity of perspective of the young people. So they actually picked, you know, junior people, even specific assistants to work with the team to help keep them organized. And they came up with ways of running communication across the hospital that was more innovative and more useful than probably what the old guard could have come up on their own. So that's just one example. But I think we've heard across our cases that there are many ways in which to empower younger people and it can also be through structural decisions like choosing to promote high potentials to a leadership team or even in those leadership team meetings, being proactive about asking their point of view. And so this gets back to then that the people actually creating the culture or the environment of the workplace actually have an important role to play in creating that cross generational collaboration. I'll stop there.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Linda Hill]

Can I add a point to that?

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

I was going to ask you to speak into that a little bit more, Linda, if you could.

[Linda Hill]

Well, and actually, one of the things that. So in our book, what we talk about is how do great leaders drive innovation? And the next line is they don't drive alone. And so this idea of leadership, and I've had the privilege of chairing the Leadership Initiative here at Harvard business school for 25 years. The view of leadership that most people have is one is, I'm the leader, I have a vision. I need to communicate that vision and inspire people to want to follow me to the future. And that is very relevant. And that still is very important to do all of the individuals we studied and as you've heard from my two colleagues, and we studied people who were individual contributors and we certainly studied CEOs. So the whole gamut is in our book and we wanted to include people in large companies, startups, et cetera. But what you see about these leaders is that even though they're visionaries, they understand if you want to build an agile organization that can innovate time and again. It's not about getting people to follow you to the future. It's about getting people both inside and outside your organization to want to co create the future with you. And the mindset of co creation is very different from a followership mindset. And I find that the Gen Zs respond well to co creation. It's about how can you and I work together to create that future that we want. I'm not here to tell you that this is the future. Even though I have a vision and you know, and I could take up all the space, I actually spend my time architecting an environment that will allow all of us to figure out what ways can we best contribute to what we're trying to get done collectively. That doesn't mean everything goes, anything goes. These leaders tend to be very tough, very exacting and caring. But when you tell people that they're helping to co create the future that they'd like to see too, I think most of us will join that now. Many people will feel overwhelmed by the responsibility and a lot of responsibility. These organizations are ones in which people feel highly accountable. But what we talk about really are three roles that leaders have to pay play. One is Architect, the second is Bridger and the last one is Catalyst. And I'm just going to say very quickly that all of these roles that you have to play as a leader, it's not about you. It's about how do you get other people to want to join you, how do you build partnerships, robust partnerships. So people want to innovate with you to create the future that they care about or the customers that they also want to address. How do you actually starting movements? What we mean by that is there are lots of different stakeholders. How do you actually get sort of build coalitions of those stakeholders so they can work with you to create what you want to do. So going back to Avatar N, how do these two engineers do this? I mean they got to the CEO, no one really, they're shocked themselves and the CEOs like, you mean like Star Trek? And they said yeah, like Star Trek, but without the mass. But we know that the technology, we can send the five senses across a robot, that's what an avatar robot. Right. So how do you do that if you're too injured? They had to work with xprize, they've worked with the jaxa, which is the NASA of Japan. They worked with governments to pull together all the different parties, universities, to create the technology and then to execute that technology. And who would have ever thought these robots, these avatar robots exist? They're already out there in the world. They're still in prototype, a lot of them. But again, it's about thinking about, I'm not doing this alone. I gotta figure out how do I get other people, how do I create the kind of social connections with people, get them excited to want to join me, to co create a future that we all want, not just something that I'm seeing.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Rather than the idea of like you are a cog in the machine that I've built to help me get where I'm trying to go, it's more like how do I build a culture that allows all of us to get where we're all trying to go while also accomplishing this sort of North Star of a vision?

[Linda Hill]

Yeah. And again, it's not. We actually talk more about. And vision is very important. And if you have the vision, and right now don't we wish people had the vision so we know where to go, then that is leading change. But leading innovation is about the fact that you don't really have the path yet, you don't know which way to go. And you know what, what I see that makes me feel. And I've actually written some articles about how you actually embrace digital natives to help drive particularly AI adoption in companies. And we have some work on that sort of thing as well. But I think the whole point here is that a lot of what we're facing right now in the world, very uncertain, lots of, you know, we don't know where all of this is going. So what you need to do is figure out how do you really encourage people to want to work together collectively, to move in a direction that really meets the needs of all of us at the same time, recognizing that we each have different priorities. We're not, you know, this is not Kumbaya. So there's going to be that tension. Going back to what I said earlier about creative abrasion. But the point is that when you take that kind of stance, I think again, I think younger people, frankly, sometimes even more, I don't like to categorize people than people who've been around a lot and are used to being told what to do. They actually, they look forward to that, embrace it. But they need to understand they're going to be their guardrails. There's accountability. And these organizations really, the leaders make sure that people feel responsible for delivering what they're supposed to deliver.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Well, I appreciate all of you being willing to take time to join me and talk a little bit about this on the show. I want to do one quick rapid fire question for all of you. We'll start with Jason, then we'll go to Emily, then we'll finish off with Linda. What is since you all are very deep into this space, very curious, besides Genius at Scale, because that's a given. If you're listening, you got to go pick up a copy of Genius at Scale. Besides Genius at Scale, what is a leadership book? Article, YouTube video, a piece of material, something that you found that you would say absolutely everybody, if they're interested in this topic, they have to read or consume this particular piece.

[Jason Wild]

Starlet Jason, thank you for asking me, Travis. Obviously, as you said, we hope everybody buys reads Genius at scale. And we look forward to hearing your feedback. To me, there's a book that I'm actually in the middle of reading a second time. It's called Reshuffle and it's by Sangeet Paul Chodari. Okay. And he was the previous author of Platform Economics. And it's the best book that I've read. I've been in AI going back to IBM for almost 20 years. You know, IBM Watson. So I get the questions from my mom, you know, to CEOs about what's the impact of AI, is it going to take jobs? And Reshuffle is the best book that I've seen that really understands.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Okay.

[Jason Wild]

And explains at a macro level what's going on. And it starts with will AI take my job? Is why it's the wrong question. And really looks at the systemic shifts that are going to happen that it's very difficult for most of us to see into this future and what the world's going to look like in a few years.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Love it. Awesome. Thank you for that, Emily.

[Emily Tedards]

Okay. I'm going to say so. I'm inspired by Ranji Gulati's book. I think it's called how to Be Bold, the Surprising Science of Courage. I think courage is a huge topic. It cuts across our book as well. So I think that book offers the. I just think the topic of courage is something that feels soft but it can actually be so powerful. And to Linda's point, the. The. These avatar in leaders that we were talking about, they were junior employees and. But they were. They had the courage to put themselves on the VP of Strategies calendars without asking any assistance, just bypassing the assistance themselves. I think things like that take courage.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Absolutely. Fortune favors the bold. And it seems like anything great that was ever accomplished started with somebody who had a little bit of courage. So I appreciate that recommendation, Linda.

[Linda Hill]

You know, I have to say, one of the last book that I was a co author of was Collective Genius, and the first chapter is about Ed Catmull. Ed Catmull was one of the founders of Pixar, and Ed is. I spoke to him this week. And every time I speak to that man, I learn so much. And that. That book is fabulous. And I think one of the reasons he wrote a second edition. So I think Creativity Inc. By Ed Catmull is a book that just has inspired me and Ed inspires me. The other book that I've. I've read a number of books recently. I hate having to pick another one is the. That is a recent book and we're going to be doing truth in advertising, doing some work, marketing. With them is the Octopus Organization. And this was written by Jana Warner and Phil labrune. And these two have written a really good book about how we all need to be. I don't find the Octopus very attractive, but why our organizations need to be structured more like an octopus. Yes, there is a center, but each tentacle also can work on its own. And I think these new structures that we need to build or these new ways of doing work so that we can take advantage of these new technologies. I think that book is really very fabulous for that purpose. But if I had to say one, I would read Ed's book. And then there's so many others that I could name. So, Emily, that's why I think we're hesitating. We read. I think Jason may be reading more than we are, but you ask us which book. But the Octopus Organization is a recent book. It just was published a little while ago. Ed Catmull's book, he wrote a first edition, but after he read all the stories about Steve Jobs that were written, and everybody in the world says no one knows Steve Jobs better than Ed, but you need to know Ed. He is the secret sauce. Yeah.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Love it. That's. That's why I asked the question. You always get the secret sauce books from people who are deep in the weeds like you guys. So I had to ask the question. I apologize is my selfish question for the day. So thank you. Thank you for appeasing that and. And definitely I'm glad you asked.

[Jason Wild]

You know, you made me think of one, Travis, that I think, especially for your audience, it's called selling is hard. Buying is even harder. And it is like the bible to flipping legacy, kind of transactional selling on its head. Okay. And bringing empathy to go to market by understanding and walking in the shoes of the people that you're trying to serve. And that's another one that went viral at places like Salesforce and other commercially driven organizations.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Yeah. Love it. I appreciate the perspective and I will add these to my reading list, which is extensive if you guys can imagine. So thank you so much for taking the time. Genius at Scale is the book that these three have been working on that just came out into the world. I highly, highly recommend you go pick up a copy of this. This is a beautiful thing about books, guys. That's why I always say on the show, if you're listening, you know, I say this all the time when we recommend a book, just pick up a copy and put it on your list. Because people like this take their entire careers and dedicate them to learning about topics and then put it into like a 200, 300 page book that you can download their information from without having to live their entire 40 years of experience doing the things that they're doing. So stop waiting on the sidelines. Pick up a copy of Genius at Scale right now. I know you will not regret that. Linda, Jason, Emily, I appreciate you all. Thank you so much for taking the time. I do not take it for granted. I know you're all very busy people. Everybody else listening. Remember, money only solves your money problems. But it's a little bit easier to solve the rest of your problems with money in the bank. So let's solve that problem first here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time. Peace.

[Podcast Sponsor/Ad Host]

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] specialoffer.