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Travis Makes Money
INTERVIEW | Make Money by Building Purpose-Driven Businesses That Actually Change Lives with Luke Mickelson
00:30:33
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$75 sponsored job credit@ Indeed.com podcast. That's Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis. What is going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's a mission to help you make more money. Today on the show, I have a new friend, Luke Mickelson. After a successful career in business, Luke realized something was missing. A deeper sense of purpose. And so in 2012, he took a simple act of kindness and turned it into Sleep In Heavenly Peace, one of the fastest growing nonprofits in the world. He now shares his blueprint for community driven change with audiences everywhere, helping them unlock their potential. The power of service. Luke, what's up, dude?
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B
Welcome to the show. Hey, Travis, man, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
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A
So for the past 15 years, let's call it, you've been working in the nonprofit sector. Before that, you were building businesses. So let's go back in time. Tell me the first business that you ever started and why.
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B
Well, that's a great question. You know, I mean that this goes way back when I was, you know, in high school. I remember, you know, friends of ours got together and I had a scheme of, you know, we were, we were going to wash cars, right? And, and we were excited about it, even to the point where, I mean, I'm, I'm buying all sorts of crazy things for, you know, for the business that we wanted to run. And I don't know, I just didn't know I had such an. You don't know back then that, that's kind of an entrepreneurial spirit that you have, right? And, and later on when I, when I got my job, I had all sorts of ideas that I leaned into. I, I had a, a water treatment under, under the counter reverse osmosis company that I started when I was really young. And then that gravitated into, as I had, as I got my job, I started a Axe throwing business called Bearded Axe, you know, and that, that was fun for a couple years, you know, and then the bottom dropped out of that. That type of industry, so I sold it and I had a property management group where was buying property and put, you know, like, dry storage on it, you know, for, for. For boats and RVs and cars. Like, you know, just always trying to find a little bit of supplemental income to, to complement my. My main job. But I've always had kind of an interest in. In starting something. I'm a builder. Yeah.
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A
Yeah. What. Where do you think that came from?
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B
Honestly? I think, you know, I grew up in a small town, only about 4,000 people or less, which, when you do that, I think you get this sense of loving to work with people.
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A
Right.
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B
And, you know, being a farm kid and. And I was raised by a single mom, you know, and I was the only. My older. My older brother left pretty, pretty soon, so I was pretty early on, so I was the, like, the only man in the house. I had, you know, three sisters and my mom, and. And so when something happened, you know, I was the guy that had to take care of it. Right. And that's hard when you're in, you know, young, 13, 14, and then your teenage years, but when you look back at it, I can really appreciate the fact that, hey, listen, when something broke, you know, you just figured it out. Yeah. And coupled with being being raised by a single mom who, you know, pounded in our heads, get an education, you know, go, go make some money. So you're not, you know, you're not starving like we are, which we weren't starving, but, you know, she wanted the best for her kids and I, And I instilled that in me. And I, you know, I always felt like I played a lot of sports when I was young that, you know, from a, From a small town, if you could pick up a ball and throw it with any sort of accuracy, you're going to be playing sports with you whether you like it or not. Right. And that was me. You know, I played all the sports. I was the captain, you know, and I just got used to people relying on me, I guess. Right. And as I look back, I think that was a lot of the drive, you know, so when you're in your own. When you're working for someone else, which is fine, I don't know, there's always this itch that I couldn't scratch, you know, unless I was doing it myself and making my own decisions. And, and there's pros and cons there. But yeah, I think that's where it come from. Yeah.
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A
When you're, when you were sort of exam, you, you named like five or six different businesses, none of which had anything to do with each other. Right. So when you're examining like a side hustle, something that you should start doing and, and something that you want to potentially scale up at some point. What, what are the, are there any, are there any qualifications that you're looking for? Is there sort of like a checklist or how do you make those decisions?
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B
Great. That's a great question. You know, I think the, and I've had a lot of people come to me and say, hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? I had my brother one time come to me and this is back in the day, and he wanted to put up phone booths, right. And you're like, you know, I'm not a genius, but I don't think they're going to be around very long, you know, So I think you, you know, you look at the viability of, and the, and the scalability as well of what you've got. I learned from a, a guy that started one of the largest used car dealerships in, in the Pacific Northwest. He sold it for $300 million. I mean, he did very, very well. And he taught me one thing. He says, he says, luke, listen, I don't start a business to retire from it. I start a business to sell it. Right? And I think when I, and I took that and later on and implemented that in my, in my decision process, when I looked at a business, because, you know, when you start a business, unlike Sleep In Heavenly Peace, when you start a for profit company, man, I was like, hey, this is what I'm doing the rest of my life. This is my career, yada, yada yada. But it always ended up being something that either got tired of, bored of, or it was more of a hassle than it was the money I was making from it. So I sold it or shut it down, right when he told me that. And I finally got kind of the vision of what he looked like or what he saw and, and what he did. I thought, you know, that's, that's pretty genius. Now I can do what I do best, which is start and build up an organization to a certain point and then sell it and be okay with that. Right? So that's been kind of my, my new. Especially with Sleeping Heavenly Peace being my main passion. I can have a lot of these little side hustles that I'll start, build, grow, till I'm either bored of it or I sell it.
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A
So what were you doing full time?
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B
So for 20 years I was in water treatment, so. So I did boiler cooling tower, outside sales. Then I was inside and did, you know, vice president marketing and then vice president of sales and operations and then was gonna buy the business before Sleeping down with Peace pulled me away from it. But, yeah, that's what I was doing.
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A
Gotcha. Okay, so that's sort of why you were in the reverse osmosis space? Or was that vice versa? Or was that the. The opposite?
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B
No, no, no, it was when, when I first started with this local organization. It was actually my. My stepdad's company. My mom had married him and. And he was, you know, he saw. I guess he saw some potential in me and it. So I became hired on as a salesman and. But still always kind of looked for opportunities. I started taking some classes on reverse osmosis so I could learn more about my own product. And. Yeah, you know, and they just found a niche, you know, a niche where it wasn't being addressed. You know, certainly we didn't sell residential. We sold big, huge commercial ones. And I don't know, I just saw an itch where. In a space where there was some viability to. To this type of. This type of technology. And I think, you know, if you're right, most of my businesses come. They're, they're like independent from one another. There's a few that kind of trickled in as I, as I worked another one. Right. You know, as a property management company that I started, you know, I had some land that wasn't doing anything, so that kind of developed into the dry storage. Storage. Dry storage area. And so there's some of that. Right. But I think us all, all us entrepreneurs are always. We're problem solvers. Right. So when we see a problem, we, you know, hey, this is how we can solve it. And can we make money from that? Great. Now how do you build? I mean, it's just the same. It's the same monkey motion, if you will, just solving problems. And I guess that's what I love, love about it.
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A
So let's transition a little bit. Tell me about Sleep in Heavenly Peace. This has been something you've been working on for quite some time. And, and this is. This is full time.
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B
Full time?
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A
Yeah, correct. How long has it been full time? And tell me about that first. You know, the time where it wasn't.
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B
I went. I went full time in 2020. So not too long ago, right?
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You know, when you start a nonprofit, you don't start thinking it's going to be a, a company that you're going to get paid from.
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A
Sure, sure.
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B
You end up spending most of your money. You don't know. I, I, I, I, I worked at my organization, my company, the water treatment company, for, at this point was, it was about 10 years when I fell into this dilemma or this, I found this, this problem in our community that was not being solved, and that was called child bedlessness. You know, there was kids that I learned in my own community that were sleeping on the floor. And when I first heard about it, I mean, it just, it ignited a little bit of a spark in me that, Travis, I'll be honest with you, I had lost years ago. You know, I just, I, you know, I think starting businesses are fun and they spark an interest in me. But this was different, right? It wasn't about making money. It wasn't about, you know, satisfying my entrepreneurial itch. This was about a kid that was sleeping on the floor, and I just couldn't, I couldn't. I hated that thought. Right? I had my own kids. Right? And so as kind of a family Christmas project, we started building beds for kids. And it was, it was amazing. But I realized the more we built and the more we shared with everybody, the more kids we found out that didn't have beds, you know, so you build more and you expound more and, and hey, I'm a grower, I'm a builder. I want, I want this to be big, big bad and ugly and, and there's people in our organization that didn't want it. They just wanted to stay, you know, the same 15, 20 beds each year and, and keep it simple. But that's not me, you know, and so we just started Building and growing it. And then all of a sudden we had people that wanted to be a part of it and do it in their own hometown. So we became a non. A nonprofit. I didn't know what that was or the process of doing that. So I had a, had a look into that and figured that out. And then we start putting on these chapters and then, you know, kind of the rest is history. We just organically kind of grew to. Now we're the largest bed building chariot in the world. We, we've built 400,000 plus beds. We've got 470 chapters nationwide in four countries. And it's been a wild ride.
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A
Yeah, no kidding. What are, what are the similarities for you between running the nonprofit versus running the businesses that you rent?
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B
Oh, synonymous. I mean, you know, and I, one of the business I started because of the success of Sleeping Emily Peace, I started getting asked this question as well as many other questions, right? You know, how did you get from point A to point B? I'll be honest with you. You know, I, I built this plane as I flew it, right? And when you do that, you know, some of these, some of these questions they were asking me, I'd tell them, I don't know, I don't know how I got from point A to point B. But, but honestly, as kind of the dust settled and I look back and then I listened to some of the challenges that these other nonprofits as they were explaining that they were having, you know, I realized, okay, you know, we actually did some things right, and, and, and I, and I always tell people, listen, the, the first mistake that nonprofits, startup, non profits do, and even nonprofits have been around for 40 years, right? The first mistake is, is they don't treat it like a business. No, the only difference, the only difference is we don't pay taxes. You know, you still have overhead, you still have, you know, profits and, and you know, reserves and, and all this stuff, right? You still have to manage it like an organization. And, and I was lucky enough because, you know, when I started sleeping on the piece, I had a full time job, right? And so I didn't have the luxury that I probably would have taken had I had more time, right? And expanded bed building to all sorts of stuff, desk building and you know, other things that would, I would have included in helping a child and a family in need. But because I didn't have the time to do so, I told myself, listen, all I can do is build beds. You know, build and deliver beds. Let's just do that. And that was probably the unbeknownst to me at the time, was the biggest and most important decision I ever made. Because mission creep, especially in the nonprofit world and also in the for profit world, which my, my stepdad taught me as well, can kill a business faster than anything, right?
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A
Can you define that?
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B
You bet. So I'll give you a great example, right? So you start a bed building charity, right? You build beds for kids, right? Especially as you start expanding it. There's actually what they call the nonprofit life cycle, right? You have an idea, you start working on the idea, you come up with a game plan and start executing this mission, right? And as it gets bigger, you start inviting and need more people to be a part of your organization to grow it. Well, this is where the fork in the road comes. And what happens is, is, look, we're all good hearted people, especially those that want to be a part of a nonprofit and spend a lot of time not get paid, right? They're big hearted people, which is awesome. But when you go into a house that has nothing in it, there's nothing. And that was my first, first delivery of a, of a bed to a child. Haley, 6 years old, never slept on a bed before. She'd only slept in the backseat of her mom's car. And when they finally got a house, of course we showed up to deliver her bed. And there was nothing in the house. Nope. No couch or TV to watch cartoons on, or table or chair to eat cereal. So big hearted people look at that and go, there's another problem. I'm going to solve that.
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Right?
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So this is where mission creep comes in. Now all of a sudden, you're not just building beds, you're providing tables and TVs and refrigerators and, and all this stuff. And what that does is dilutes your mission.
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A
Yeah, right.
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B
A great, a great example of this is when I, when I decided to be a nonprofit, I said, okay, I'm going to look at some other nonprofit that's providing beds and kind of see how they do it, you know, and, and, you know, just kind of get some ideas. Well, there was only one in the entire country. There was only one in 2012, and that was beds for kids. And they were doing about a thousand beds a year for kids, which was amazing, right? I, I did 20, you know. Yeah. Well, if you look at their organization now, they still only do about 12, 1500 beds a year.
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Yeah.
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And some of that, I hate to, I hate to admit some of those, some of that is because they also provide air Conditioning units and couches. And you know, they've, they've expanded their program. And, and I'm not saying expanding your program's bad. I'm just saying, you know, the responsibility of your board and your mission is to keep it pure and simple. And in the for profit world, I mean, being an entrepreneur is, is kind of a dangerous thing. Sometimes when you're not the owner or even when you are the owner, you know, you start mixing and looking for ways to make more money, which is great, but that can dilute. For example, we had trucks that we were delivering our products to. You know, let's say they drive all the way to Seattle, which was 12 hours away, they deliver a product and then they're bringing that truck home empty. Well, why not fill it up and bring it home? Well, now you're a trucking company, you know, and so that becomes very sticky. And so the, the, the simplest solution for that is just keeping, keeping your mission and your, and your product and your purpose simple.
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A
How have you found the fundraising process?
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B
So this is, this is, thank you for this question. It's beautiful. It's one of the, one of the biggest and most discussed question. When I was a CNN hero, there was 10 of us. You know, they picked CNN picks 10 out of the entire world and I was lucky to be one of them in 2018. Well, the next day, or excuse me, one, a part of being a CNN hero, they paid for your organization, you and one other person to go to what was called the Annenberg Alchemy foundation, which was in la, top notch nonprofit training. I'm some of the best in the world, right? And they, they, they teach you how to, you know, how to market. They teach you about this life cycle of non profits, right, and how that important. And then they teach you and, and share about fundraising. Well, I knew way back in the day, right, that again, I didn't have time to go out and fundraise, you know, and I didn't even know what that was. I've, I didn't, I didn't know how to ask for money. But what I did know was, okay, I know it costs this much to run this program. It costs this much for the wood, this much for tools and replacements and delivery and gas and overhead and all this stuff. So I ran it like a business. So I'm like, okay, listen, I'm not going to build a bed until someone donates the money for that bed. I called it sponsor bed program. Well, now that is the process to which SHP raises money. So well, it's actually about 70% of the dollars that we get are from businesses that want to do a team building exercise. Right. They want to build beds. Okay, well, your budget needs to be $300 for every bed that you build. And I tell nonprofits, listen, this is the key for raising money. When you can make your mission the, the, the fundraising activity, even if it's just a certain percentage, but as much percentage as you can to be your fundraising activity, you'll never starve. You know, it's the, it's the organizations that rely on grants. They rely on galas and, and fundraisers, spaghetti feeds and all this. Other trading at Schwab is now powered by Ameritrade, giving you even more, more specialized support than ever before, like access to the trade desk. Our team of passionate traders ready to tackle anything from the most complex trading questions to a simple strategy. Gut check. Need assistance? No problem. Get 24. 7 professional answers and live help and access support by phone, email, and in platform chat. That's how Schwab is here for you to help you trade brilliantly. Learn more@schwab.com trading do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready. Because Quakers coming in hot with morning nutrition, 100 whole grain oats and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kickstart your day. And that sounds absolutely delicious.
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A
Fuel to start whatever's next Quaker, official
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B
sponsor of FIFA World Cup 26. Let's go golf tournaments, all this other thing, which aren't necessarily a bad thing, but what, what does it do? It takes, it takes the organization away from their mission. Right? I'm not here to put on a golf tournament. I'm not here to do a spaghetti field. I'm here to build beds. So if you can make that bed building process like we have the fundraiser, you'll never starve. And I tell all the chapter presidents that come, we train about 50, 60 a year. All of them that come to training. I tell them, listen, I ask them what, what's, what's the biggest, the most scariest thing that you are face facing as. As being a new chapter of Sleeping Heavenly Peace? And it's all the same. We've never ran a nonprofit and I've never asked for money. And I sit there and tell him, I said, would you believe me if I told you money for this nonprofit is the easiest thing that you'll have to face? None of them believe me. But at the end of the day, every single, every single other chapter present, that's a training that's been there for a while. Agrees it's the easiest thing because the, the, the, the mission is simple, right? People know exactly what we do. There's no question on where your dollar goes. There's no question on what it gets paid for and what gets done because it's simple, right? All of our vendors, all of our donors, all of our national partners know exactly what we do.
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A
Right?
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B
And the less we can mix and dilute that, the more pure and transparent it stays.
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A
What is your philosophy on the operational efficiency of the non profit being run by highly competent individuals? When you feel, when you know that you can't pay them as much as they would probably be able to get paid somewhere else, or maybe you can and you do, but maybe that cuts in, into what you can do for bed output, I guess. What's your overarching philosophy on like running with all the operating expenses for bringing this mission to fruition versus putting the money directly into the beds?
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B
Great question. You know, there's a TED Talk and I'm going to screw up his name. Dan Gelada Galata and the name of the TED Talk, Something like the what, what we, what we don't know or should know about nonprofits or something. It's an amazing talk. And when we first started out, when I first started out, the biggest thing I worried about was making sure that my management fee and my program fee was a good percentage, right. Or a good ratio. It was 8020. Right. 80% of your dollar goes to the program and 20% of your dollar goes to management, you know, marketing or whatever, right? Well, when I listen to that talk, it changed my whole point of view because he talks about, he says, listen, you know, why is it that. And then, and in the nonprofit space, it's very difficult for us to compete with for profit companies because of this exact thing. If you, if you go and you know, create this violent, horrible video game, right? And it makes millions and millions of dollars, you're on the COVID of People magazine, you're highlighted, you're interviewed, you're rich, right? But if I pay a CEO or an executive director that's building beds for freaking kids a hundred thousand dollars, he gets crucified because he's making too much money, right? And what you need to realize is, listen. What, let's say you're in the driver's seat and your whole mission is to build as many beds for kids as you can. And you're looking at Travis or Luke. Luke is a high school diploma guy. He's a nice guy, he gets along, he loves the mission, blah blah, blah. Travis is a, you know, a Harvard grad that's, that's, you know, top of his game. You're going to pay Luke $50,000 to come in and raise, let's say a hundred dollars or a hundred thousand dollars or you're going to pay Travis $250,000 and he's going to bring in a million.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Now it doesn't take rocket science to re, to realize which one is going to supply more beds to kids. You know, and he talked about how, what do you want on your gravestone? We kept management fees under 20% or that we helped millions of kids deliver bed or build beds and deliver beds to them. You know, so it's kind of more of an ROI now than it is the, the 8020 rule, whatever. And it really comes down to one thing that the nonprofits will always struggle with until us, the society maybe clues in. And that's optics. And optics are just a terrible, horrible needed I guess, but a horrible monster that we have to deal with because you know, the non profit world, you, you make a decision, you hire the Travis for $250,000 a year and he raises $5 million for the organization. He's a freaking hero. Right. But if you pay him in a non profit that kind of money, no one cares what you did. Yeah, it's just, that's way too much money. Right. And that's just the, that's the, that's the tough, the tough facade that nonprofits have to deal with.
- [24:11]
A
Yeah, it is, it's just, it's part of the facts. You know, like you, if you want a massive organization to deliver a massive result to a massive volume of people, then you have to have a team that's capable of, of running an organization like that and you have to pay them something similar to what competitive rates would be or it just doesn't make sense for them to do it. It would just make sense, it would make more sense for them just to go work their, their, their day job, get paid three times the salary, a percentage of their salary to the non profit of something that they care about.
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B
So you know, he said, he said in his talk, and I'll get a little of these numbers incorrect, but the point will land, he says of it was like 55,000 non profits that started in 1982-1992, something like that. Anyways, only 153 of them made more than a hundred million dollars of almost 50,000. Then if you took the same scenario of for profit companies. It was some like 30%, right. Or something like that. It was some huge number. And that, that showed me that, listen, like that is the, that is such the, the battle that nonprofits have to deal with because they don't get to play in the same. Even though they're operating and playing the same game, they don't get to play by the same rules. You know, and it makes it even more difficult for nonprofits optically to function like they could. Right. And so now kind of back to answer your question, we really, in sleeping on the piece, we really look at, we have to consider optics for sure, but we really look at ROI more than we do optics. Because just like a for profit company, you know, if, if I've invested a million dollars and it makes me $3 million, that's much better than 100,000 to 300,000. You know what I'm saying?
- [25:59]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Luke, I'm curious how the partnership or Shout out or whatever with Mike Rowe came about.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah. Oh, you know, Micro is awesome. You know, and micro, back in 2011, I think is when he started. He had a program or struck a deal with a marketing company called Hudson Media that worked with, with Facebook back when Faith Facebook had that, you know, Facebook Watch series program that they would run. Yeah. And it's no longer around, but he had a series called Returning the Favor. And what he would do is he would go around, they would find nonprofits and their founders. He would show up and surprise them. Right. They would, they would tell him it's some sort of. They told me it was some sort of Internet magazine. And then all of a sudden I turn around, there's Mike Roast looking at me in the face. Right. You know, so he highlights them and then he gives them something. Right. Whether it's money or a car or, you know, something that they need. We needed a warehouse, so they gave us a warehouse rent free for three years.
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A
Wow.
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B
But what they really did, because at the time he showed up, we had seven chapters in five states. But after he left, right. That program was viewed by 10 million plus people. So we went from 7 to 125 in less than a year. Wow. We still get, we still get. Chapter presence have come on because of that. That's why we're at 470 chapters that and some other, some other publications that happened. I was a CNN here. I was on Good on Good Morning America, all these other national events. But mostly it started with Returning the Favor in Micro, which incidentally was pretty cool. The whole point of this program was to find these charities, highlight them so people would do the same thing in their own hometown. He wanted to inspire people to do that. Well, their hundredth episode, they went through all hundred, you know, real brief description of all 100 episodes, and then they landed on his favorite episode, which was Sleep in Heavenly Peace. You know, we were honored simply because we did exactly what he wanted that program to do. Inspire people to do with what we did in their own hometown.
- [28:02]
A
That's awesome, man. And couldn't ask for a better guy to. To. To help you through that process. That's. He's. He's a legend.
- [28:09]
B
He actually, he's actually just finished. He sent me just a week ago a forward. He's going to do the forward in my book. And yeah, he's. He's. Dude. He's a good dude and he's a busy guy. You know, he's one of those big mouthpieces for the trade skills and, and provides a lot of support and service there. And, and outside of that, I mean, the guy's just. Just is exactly how he seems. I spent a lot of time with him, and he is exactly how he seems.
- [28:33]
A
Luke, I appreciate you taking the time to come on the show, man. I appreciate the work that you're doing in the world where people go to get more from you and what you're working on.
- [28:39]
B
You bet. So if you want to learn about sleeping MLPs, shpbeds.org that's our website. It's if, you know, providing beds for kids. For kids. If that's something you want to be a part of, please go there. My personal website, lukemickelson.com I'm a public speaker, right. So I share my mission about making passion purpose. And I'm also starting something new Travis called the Founders Syndrome survival course. And Founder syndrome is something that I personally went through. And a lot of founders, well, every founder goes through it to some degree, but some founders experience such a negative and, and. And very disconnected process or feeling when they go through these Founder Syndrome issues to the point where they get kicked out of their own organization. And there's no real support for founders that are dealing with and suffering from Founder syndrome. So I've created a Founder syndrome survival course to help. Help founders understand what they're going through is very normal. It's very. It's very common. But. But here are some steps to be able to work through it. So those are the big things I'm working on right now.
- [29:43]
A
Love it, dude. Luke Mickelson over on instagram as well. Go check out some of the stuff that Luke is working on. Look, check out Sleep In Heavenly Peace and the Charity and things like that as well. Luke, appreciate you for taking the time. Everybody else tuning in. Remember, money only solves your money problems. It's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace. Some Follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now at Bloomberg.