C (2:26)

As an author, you can write on literally any topic you want to. Why this one?

B (2:31)

Okay, so here's what happened. So a few years ago I published Indistractable, my second book, how to Control youl Attention and choose youe Life. And it's such a common problem, right? Like, I feel like everybody's distracted these days. I have adhd. I've been diagnosed with it. And it seems like everybody is struggling with distraction even if you don't have an ADHD diagnosis. And I used to do these office hours where people can call me and ask me anything they want if they've, if they've read one of my books. I love hearing from readers and so sometimes they would have to wait a few months and, and, and get a call with me and maybe like 1 in every 20 calls would sound like this. Someone would call and say, hey, Nir, I read Indistractable. I really liked it, but it didn't work. Say, oh, wow, you know, tell me more. I spent five years writing this thing. Thirty pages of peer review citations to peer reviewed studies. Like I, you know, changed my life. Tell, tell me what happened. Let's start with step one. How did step one go for you? Ah, you know, I read it, I read Step one. I just didn't. He didn't do step one. Okay, no problem. I understand. Maybe you skip that one. Let's skip to step two. How did step two go? Yeah, Step two. Okay, so I read step two. I read it, I read it. I just didn't, I just didn't. I didn't do it. I didn't do it.

C (3:37)

I'm sensing a pattern here.

B (3:38)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so I thought, wow, you know, what, what did I do wrong with this book that people aren't putting it to use? And everybody says, oh, I'm so distracted. Well, here, I spent five years here on a silver platter. I'm telling you what to do. Go for it. This is going to solve your problem. And yet somehow they weren't doing it, even though, you know, half a million people bought the book. Amazing. But a good chunk of them, I'm guessing, kind of read it and didn't do it, didn't implement. And so I want to know why what was missing here? What didn't I get? And then if I, if I was honest with myself, I have bookshelves full of books that I haven't put into practice. I've paid gurus and experts to give me advice. I haven't put to good use either. Why, why is it that despite knowing what to do, wanting the benefit of that behavior, why don't we just do it? Well, turns out that motivation is not a straight line that we think of motivation as well. If I want this benefit, I do this behavior, easy peasy. But if that were true, we would all have six pack abs and be multimillionaires.

C (4:32)

Because that's right.

B (4:32)

Who doesn't know what to do these days? If you want to know how to do something, there's no secrets anymore. You just go on ChatGPT, you Google it, you're going to learn how to do it. It's not that information is the problem. What's the problem? Is it skill? Well, skill can be taught. Is it resources? Well, I know lots of people who have every resource. They have tons of resources and they accomplish very little. I know people who have very little who go on to do amazing things. So it's not that easier. I think either. I think what's missing is that we don't understand that motivation is not a straight line. Motivation is a triangle that you need to know what to do. That's the behavior. You need to know why you're doing it. That's the benefit. But holding in those two elements and holding it all together is belief that if you don't believe that you will get the benefit. Let's say, for example, you're working for a boss who you don't think has your best interest at heart. Maybe you don't believe they're going to give you that promotion or that raise. Well, are you going to sustain your motivation to work for them? No. And what about if you don't believe in your ability to do the behavior? Are you going to be able to sustain your motivation? If you think, oh, I'm no good at this, this is hard, I don't like this. No, you're not going to sustain your motivation either. So it's not good enough to know what you need to do and why you want to do it, you also have that belief that keeps you going to persist long to actually achieve your goals. And so that's where I decided I really wanted to dive into the psychology and the truths as well as the myths. There's a lot of myths out there. Around what works. For example, positive thinking. Turns out positive thinking has some serious negative effects, that we really have to use this properly or it can actually hurt us.

C (6:05)

Yeah, can we talk more about that? Because that's been, I don't know, I don't know what it is. Sometimes, you know, when you do a bunch of research and you read a lot and do a bunch of podcasting for a living, I feel like I've found myself to go down these certain, like, topic silos every once in a while. And it feels like this, this thing about optimism has been one of those for me recently because I felt when I was a younger, when I was a younger person, I, I was very optimistic. It was just like anything that I did, I had this belief that it was just possible that I could do it. I just had to figure it out. And then you start going throughout life and you take a bunch of at bats and then you have failures start inevitably kind of stacking up along the way. And then you're almost building some, you know, bank of evidence that suggests that not everything's going to work out. And then I sort of found myself in this almost not necessarily pessimistic phase, but skeptical, I would say at least phase where it was just like, nah, I caught myself saying stuff like, you know, anything can happen, but we're going to do our best instead of saying like, we're going to make this happen, you know. And then I hear people like Adam Sandler on a podcast talking about how he just had this, this weird delusional optim, this belief that, that it was going to work, that he was going to be the next Steve Martin and it ended up, you know, becoming true. But for every Adam Sandler that believed that there's a person who's still, you know, bussing tables in Hollywood waiting for their big break. How do you, how do you balance these ideas together? It seems like there's a lot of reward for optimistic thinkers and there's less reward for pessimistic kind of intellectuals. But there's obviously danger, like you said, to becoming like wildly optimistic to some degree. So how do you think about these things? How do they, how do they play in your mind?

B (7:47)

Yeah. So thinking positive is negative. And because the way we do it generally, the way it's preached to us is maybe it works.

D (7:55)

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E (8:18)

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How did I not know Rack has Adidas? Why do we rack for the hottest deals? There's so many good brands.

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B (8:45)

That's why you rack for some people. But I think for the vast majority of us, it actually backfires. And there's, there's quite a bit of research on this. So Gabrielle Ottigen did a beautiful study where she connected people to blood pressure monitors as they visualize success. Okay, so they did their manifesting exercise, they did their vision boarding, they did their, you know, thinking about the outcomes they wanted, okay, I'm going to be a famous comedian, I'm going to be very wealthy, I'm going to find love, I'm going to have a beach body. And they, what she found was that when they were visualizing the outcomes, their blood pressure dropped, they became more relaxed. And in follow up interventions with these folks, she learned that the people who had done this became less likely to actually achieve their goals. So students who visualize getting a good grade on an exam became less likely to not only get that grade, they didn't study enough to actually warrant that good grade. So it actually negatively affected them, it actually hurt themselves. So all this mumbo jumbo about manifesting the way most people are doing it is actually hurting them.

C (9:53)

Is that related to the idea that they, because they visualized it so much, they almost felt like they had already accomplished it without putting in the work. Like, what, what exactly is the cause of that?

B (10:02)

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. They became so relaxed, the body thought that, okay, we already got it. And that's one factor. The other big factor is that people don't understand what visualizing the right way means. If you say, well, look at athletes, don't athletes visualize like this whole technique comes from athletics? Right. Well, what do athletes visualize? Athletes don't visualize getting the gold medal, getting the trophy. That's not what they visualize. An athlete visualizes the obstacles in their way. They mentally and physically prepare for the challenge. That's where positive thinking and manifesting and all that stuff goes off the rails because, you know, just manifesting the universe will give you good things. Or just be an optimist and all these good things are going to happen. What happens when it doesn't happen? What happens when bad things happen? Well, it's your fault. You. You didn't manifest hard enough. You didn't think positively enough. No, that's. And it's actually destructive because you think, well, then I must not be the right person. Now you have an identity. Well, I'm a loser. I can't do it. I'm not cut out for it. I'm no good. It's me. Not what I did, but it's who I am. And then you're sunk. Then you built a cage of your own creation. So that doesn't work. What works instead is preparing yourself psychologically for the difficulty that you are invariably going to face. So, for example, I used to be clinically obese, not just overweight, actually obese. And the way I learned to lose weight was not, oh, I'm going to sit here and manifest a beach body that doesn't work. What worked is when I'm at that dinner party, when I'm out with my family and someone offers me a chocolate cake or an extra drink or something that has a lot of calories, what am I going to do in that uncomfortable moment? What am I going to do when it's painful to say no? Say no, thanks. That's what I have to visualize. I have to rehearse not just what I will do, but how I am going to feel. And that's where beliefs come in. You have to prepare yourself with the right belief so that when that moment comes, you have the right tools at

C (12:02)

your disposal to visualize the difficulty of that moment and essentially, basically train your brain to make it more habitual rather than thinking of it as an option in that time to not freak out.

B (12:15)

To not freak out. So it used to be when chocolate cake came across my face, I want the chocolate cake. I want the chocolate cake. I want the. I couldn't stop the script of rumination in my head. I had to have it. And the only way to remove. Stop that voice in my head was to eat it. Whereas what you need to do to prepare is not to think positive, not to the universe doesn't care about your stupid vibrations. The right thing to do is to say, how am I going to feel? It's not going to feel good. And you know what? Pain is not suffering pain Is not suffering. Pain is data. Pain is just information. People have gone through much worse. If I don't eat the chocolate cake, nothing's going to happen.

C (12:52)

Right.

B (12:53)

I'll want the chocolate cake. So what? And this is exactly the same technique that helps people quit smoking. It helps people stop chronic pain. I've seen people use similar techniques to go through surgery without anesthesia. I've seen the video. It's not magic. It's the power of the mind. By using beliefs the right way, we can separate pain from suffering and meet our full potential.

C (13:17)

Yeah. Pain is guaranteed, but suffering is optional.

B (13:20)

Yes.

C (13:20)

Yeah, yeah. I'm nodding along with you because I also used to be like £250 and.

B (13:26)

Oh, is that right?

C (13:27)

Wow. Yeah, that exactly.

B (13:29)

So you've been through this.

C (13:30)

Yeah. What I think, what, what finally helped me was thinking, truly thinking about the teeny, teeny, teeny, teeny tiny bit of pleasure that I'm going to get followed by the long term pain. You know, like, like eating the cake is going to be so good, but it's literally only going to last as long as the cake is in my mouth. And then as soon as it's down my gullet, I'm immediately going to be like, man, I shouldn't have eaten that tomorrow morning when I wake up. And I'd be like, dang, I shouldn't have eaten that.

B (13:59)

You know what I mean? Yeah. I think, I think the last for me was, was when you study what is motivation? You know, I used to think that motivation is about wanting to feel good. That's what motivation is about. But actually what the literature shows, that that's not true. That when we actually look inside the brain, the only thing that motivates us is the desire to escape discomfort. That's it. Everything we do is not about the pursuit of pleasure. It's about escaping discomfort, even wanting to feel good. Right. I want to eat the chocolate cake. I want to be with my family. I want to watch Netflix. I want to do all these things. Wanting, craving, hunger, lusting is psychologically uncomfortable. And that's the way the brain spurs us to action, is by making us feel bad. So we get the thing that makes us feel good. The motivator is discovered. So what that means is that weight management is pain management, time management is pain management, money management. It's all pain management, all of it. And so we have to change our beliefs about what is pain. Pain is not suffering.

C (15:01)

How would you apply? Obviously you have now written some very successful books. Do a lot of speaking. You've been a professor and you have all these different accolades, but you also built and sold companies. How does this apply in the entrepreneurial space?

B (15:15)

Oh, big time. So there are three powers of belief. The power of anticipation. Beliefs change what you see. Like literally what you see. We'll get back to that in a minute. Beliefs change what you. The power of anticipation. Beliefs change how you feel. We talked about that a little bit about pain is not suffering. And then the power to change what you do. The power of agency. So the entrepreneurial success, you know, is. Is all about mastering these beliefs. So for example, when it comes to the power of attention, we know that entrepreneurs have a very specific trait. It's called entrepreneurial alertness. And so there's research studies that show that entrepreneurs literally see the world differently. Not figuratively, not metaphorically, they actually see it differently. There was a study done where they asked people who thought they were lucky or unlucky. And by the way, entrepreneurs by and large believe that they are lucky. Right. Why would you be so crazy to think that, you know, you see hundred dollar bills while other people see nothing? Right? Like, you know, you have to be, you have to have what Wal Isaacson set of Steve Jobs. You have this reality distortion field where you are seeing reality differently. And I'll demonstrate this through this study. There's a study where they asked two groups of people to do a very simple task. The task was look through this newspaper and count how many images are in the newspaper. Right. Just how many images. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Count the images. People who saw themselves as unlucky. Okay. Who had a belief. I'm an unlucky person. Took two and a half minutes to count the images. People who were self identified as lucky people. People who thought believed good things happened to me, I'm a lucky person. Took 11 seconds. 11 seconds compared to two and a half minutes. Why they didn't count faster on page two of the newspaper, one of those images in big bold text said, there are 43 images in this newspaper. Collect your reward. The unlucky people didn't see it. It wasn't in their universe to pay attention to it because they were counting like dopes. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. They just counted for two and a half minutes. They couldn't see it. Just like for entrepreneurs, they see something so obvious like, let's do this. Yeah, this is going to happen. Like I know this episode is brought

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B (18:21)

Oh, it's gonna happen. I can see it. Whereas the rest of us, you know, the non entrepreneurs, we can't. So it's. And largely that's because of beliefs. It's what we choose to adopt is our beliefs.

C (18:31)

Yeah, that. I mean, when you, when you are researching for a book like this and you have sort of like this concept of like, hey, here's what I want to learn more about. Are there when you come across studies like this, do you go like, oh, this is like, yeah, obviously this is what happened. Or you come across studies and go like, wow, that blows my mind and I'm onto something here.

B (18:52)

I mean, the book that came out is like a third of what I

C (18:58)

wrote, because I'm sure.

B (19:01)

Yeah. All the studies I looked at that I didn't include in the book, it's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle where you've got six other jigsaw puzzle pieces mixed in and you're trying to figure

C (19:14)

out what you recently wrote, like four books and then had to squeeze it into one.

B (19:18)

Well, that's why I keep writing books, because I'll have all this leftover material of a problem that I'm not really. I haven't quite figured out enough. And so if there's one of those problems that I want to figure out for myself, it's always quite selfish, frankly. Like, I'm always following my own curiosity to solve my own problems. Sure. And so that's where I always go next with it.

C (19:35)

Well, this has to be. I mean, this is like the building block. Right. Like, this is. This is almost the step One of succeeding in anything that you're doing is just the belief that it's possible. And, and the very first one that you said, the. That, you know, if you believe something, that you actually start seeing things differently. This is sort of going into the biases that your brain starts choosing for you, essentially. Like, if you believe that something's possible, then you're going to find the opportunities within that world that could make it possible. Whereas if you believe something's impossible, you're going to find all the reasons why it's impossible, and then it. It paralyzes you from taking any action. And that's something we talk about on the show a lot because, you know, I find that the entrepreneurial audience, you don't have to bake. You don't have to bake into their mind that it's possible to make more money. They, like you said, they kind of already think that way. It's the entrepreneur portion of the audience that I really needs to hear this piece, because in their mind, especially if, like, they grew up in a place with limited access, they didn't know a lot of people who had any money. And, and, you know, they. They were just proud of themselves to get their bachelor's degree and get a $65,000 salary, and that was more than anybody in their family's ever made. And so for them to sit here and. And listen to people be like, oh, yeah, we did 4.4 million last year, or like, we just exit our company for $78 million, or, you know, or we got this whatever side hustle that started out as 100k a year, but then we grew it into this thing. In their mind, it's like the gap is so large between where they are and where they want to be. But it all has to begin with the belief, right? There's no evidence to suggest that it's actually true. You have to just believe it.

B (21:09)

Yeah. Let me share a riddle with your listeners. You may have heard this one before, but don't say the answer. Let me share this riddle, because 83% of people can't get the answer to this riddle, and it demonstrates exactly the point that we're making here. So there's a father and a son who are driving on a dark dirt road. There's no lights, and a deer jumps in front of the car. The deer smashes into the windshield. The father is killed instantly. His son is in critical condition, rushed to the hospital, brought to the er the surgeon takes one look at the boy and says, I can't operate on this boy, he's my son. How can that be? Now, don't say the answer, okay, Travis, you know it. But 83% of people don't know the answer to this riddle. And you can give them all the time in the world, and they will not figure out the answer. Right now your listeners are listening, and I'm telling you, 83% of them don't know the answer. The answer is, how is it that when the surgeon saw the boy. The surgeon says, I can't operate on this boy. He's my son. The answer is, the surgeon was the boy's mother. Duh. Okay, 83% of people can't get the answer because of their beliefs, because 80% of surgeons are men, 20% are women. But the most common case, what we believe prior, it's called our prior beliefs. What our experience has been. Well, most of the time, surgeons are men. So in this case, your brain can't even see the possibility of a different reality. It's the exact same way with entrepreneurship. It's exact same way with financial success. Most of the time, the people you know don't get ahead. They're just working their day jobs. And so that's the future you see, you can only envision. Just like you can't envision that the surgeon could have been the boy's mom, you can't envision any other reality. Your beliefs won't let you see things differently because of your prior experiences. And so. But once you see the answer, Holy crap. Of course it's the boy's mom. Like, so obvious, right? But it's only once you know the answer.

C (23:13)

How do you.

B (23:15)

If you're.

C (23:16)

If you're in that position, how do you craft an environment that allows you to start seeing that there's other potential answers to the problem?

B (23:25)

Yeah, there are many techniques. One of my favorites is called inquiry based stress reduction, which is where you do what's called a turnaround. This was based on the work of Byron, Katie. It actually extends this technique, though, is thousands of years old. It's basically having a systematic way to collect a portfolio of perspectives. It sounds complicated. Essentially, all you're doing is you're taking a belief that you think is true. Limiting beliefs are like your face. You can't see your face. You can see your hand, see your feet. Unless you look at a mirror, you can't see your face. But we all have faces. The only way you can see your face is if you go to a mirror and look at your face. Right. You can see other people's Faces just like you can see other people's limiting beliefs, right? Think of a family member, think of a friend, think of, I bet you know, tons of their limiting beliefs. You can't see your own limiting beliefs because you think they're facts. So you don't question them. So you have to have a systematic process. So there's these four questions that I detail in the book and that come from this inquiry based stress reduction technique. Number one, is it true? Number two, is it 100% true? Number three, who am I when I believe this? And number four, who would I be if I didn't hold this belief? And then what you do, and here's the powerful part, you open up the possibility of looking at the exact opposite of that belief. So you literally take whatever is that belief, that thing that you think is crazy. And the brain hates changing its mind. Okay, first start with that. Your brain hates changing its mind. Hates it, hates it, hates it. Right? It's gonna feel weird, it's gonna be uncomfortable. You're gonna give me every excuse. People like me can't do this. I don't have enough time. I'm too fat, I'm too thin, I'm too broke, I'm too whatever. You're going to find a million excuses. That is your brain fighting tooth and nail to get you to not change your mind. But through following this process, what you're going to do is look for the exact opposite. Okay, I don't have enough time. I hear that all the time. What's the opposite? I do have enough time. Could that be true? Is there any possibility that could be true? Right, so what you're doing is intentionally testing out the things that you think are facts to see if they're just beliefs. What's the definition of belief? A belief is a conviction that is open to revision based on new evidence. So you follow a systematic process. I'm going through it very, very quick here. But you're following a systematic process to constantly assess. Is this belief serving me or is it hurting me? Is it helping me stay motivated or is it causing me suffering?

C (25:45)

Nir, I appreciate you taking the time, man. I know, I know you're a busy guy. I don't take that for granted. Where can people go to get a copy of the book or follow more of the stuff that you're working on?

B (25:53)

Appreciate it. Yeah, just go to near and far.com that's spelled N I R like my first name andfar.com and the book is called Beyond Belief.

C (26:01)

Beyond Belief. Go pick up a copy of this book. Look, we say it all the time here on the show, guys. Whenever we have a book recommendation, just pick it up. Just pick it up. These are. These are written by people who've spent countless hours putting their effort into making sure they put a finished product in the world that actually can impact your life so beyond belief. Pick a copy of that book. Follow near on all the channels. You will not regret it. I've been following for a long time and I don't either near appreciate you taking the time. Everybody else listening. Remember, money only solves your money problems. But it's easier to solve the rest of your problems with money in the bank. So let's solve that one first here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time. Peace.

H (26:32)

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