← Travis Makes Money
Travis Makes Money
INTERVIEW | Make Money by Finding Your Voice with John Kim, the Angry Therapist
00:25:53
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- [00:00]
A
I was recently on whatnot the other day, just shopping around, looking frankly, because I was just blown away that this is something that people are doing with their time. And so I was like, I got to go see if this thing is real before I talk about it on the show. And so I'm browsing whatnot, looking around, finding things, and it's crazy to see the volume of people that are just having fun in the chat. They're watching people do live shopping. It's like, it's like, you know, QVC directly on your phone. It's something you need to try, I'm telling you. Not just buying, but the selling piece to too. Where these people are just starting up pop up shops and businesses, selling whatever product, finding their people, building community, getting repeat customers that come back to see your face as the seller. Not just a logo or a brand, anyone can sell. Whether your business is big, small or yet to exist, people selling on whatnot sell 10 times more than on any other major marketplaces. And that's because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers across whatnot. The number of sellers making over $1 million a year has now doubled. The consistency pays off for those sellers. It's not just side hustle, it's a real path to building something that lasts. Because whatnot buyers spend more than an hour a day in the app, they're not just browsing around, they're engaged, they're buying, they're coming back. You go live, show off your products in real time and turn what you love into real income. So search whatnot wh o t Whatnot in the App Store, download it today and get started selling right away. You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis
- [01:43]
B
what is going on everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's a mission to help you make more money. On this episode of the show, I have a new friend, John Kim. John is a licensed therapist, speaker and author of several best selling books like I Used to Be a Miserable Father, Buck and Single on Purpose. He's a writer for Psychology Today among many other publications, has been featured in the New York Post, NPR Armchair Expert, and currently has a television show in development at ABC based on his own life. So John has built an amazing career in this space and now has built a brand underneath the handle The Angry Therapist at the Angry Therapist over on Social. And so he talks a lot about these difficult parts about forming relationships that all of us face, but none of us really know exactly, you know, how to handle them. Surprise, surprise. But nobody taught this stuff in high school or college, and so we have to go seek this type of information out from people like John Kemp. So, John, what's up, man? Welcome to the show.
- [02:47]
C
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Travis.
- [02:49]
B
So how do we. How do we get here, man? Let's. Let's go all the way back in time here first. Before we ju. Dive into the rest of the story. Tell me, tell me the first time you ever made a dollar doing something that you just didn't realize was going to make you any money.
- [03:04]
C
Yeah, man, that's a great question. I have the answer, and it's very potent because it's something I always keep in my back pocket. I'm in my second act break. My first act break was post divorce at 35. Struggling screenwriter, didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. Divorce. Thank God I didn't have any kids, but basically lost everything. Just started with a. A pillow. It was a tempur Pedic pillow. She got the bed and went back to therapy school. And I didn't know this, but it was. It took six years, man. It took me a long time to become a licensed therapist in doing so. This is around 2020. I created a Tumblr. Remember Tumblr blogs?
- [03:41]
B
Yeah.
- [03:42]
C
And I. I just thought it'd be funny to call it the Angry Therapist and started answering questions. And I didn't. You know, back then, it wasn't called creating content, but just blogging. And I started answering emails, and I put a lot of effort into this person's email. You know, I had a lot of time on my hands, long email. And she PayPal'd me 20 bucks. And this is like just. Just the idea back then that money could be digitally transferred into your account was like, holy shit, right? This is like AOL days. And I remember crying. I mean, not because of the amount, but because someone found my advice, slash, words of value. And I remember camera. Those cameras weren't in phones then. I remember taking, like, a real camera and putting it on video. And I recorded with tears streaming down my face. I said, if you don't make it about you, God will. And that was my first. First. That was the first time I made money digitally. The other thing that happened was I thought to myself, okay, how can I now you Know, scale this. How can I do this? Where this becomes my profession.
- [04:46]
B
Yeah, no kidding. What were you doing to make money at that time?
- [04:50]
C
I was. I was just putting in reps as a brand new therapist, trying to get clinical hours, so I wasn't making anything. I think I was making like 30, 35,000 a year in nonprofit running groups for teenage addicts.
- [05:03]
B
Yeah, what's beautiful about that $20, man, is like, it's the possibility. You know what I mean? It's. It's the. It's the. Oh, my gosh, like, it's not. Like you said, it's not about 20 bucks. Like, what's 20 bucks gonna do for you? It's the somebody just paid you for something that you thought nobody would ever pay you to do.
- [05:22]
C
Right. It was. It was the nod from the universe that I needed.
- [05:25]
B
Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. So tell me, tell me about the books. When did you start really getting into writing?
- [05:32]
C
I thought I was a failed writer because I went to film school and I studied screenwriting back in the day. And then once I got a divorce, I thought I failed at writing. So then I started writing blogs. And then through blogs, you know, got like, I don't know, 60,000 followers on Tumblr or something. And then they came to me and offered me a book deal. Parallax was the first one. Vidnan Hans Company, a smaller kind of like, indie publishing company. And again, it wasn't. It wasn't the money. It was what it represented. Like, the fact that I was going to be published blew my mind. And then that was the experience I needed to give myself to start dissolving the false belief that I was a failed writer.
- [06:12]
B
Yeah, no kidding.
- [06:13]
C
Yeah.
- [06:13]
B
Well, the cool thing is too, that, you know, it sounds silly to be like, oh, I'll, you know, I'm a blogger or whatever. Like, if you're. If you're trying to be a screenwriter or an author or something like that. But also, I mean, that's what a writer is. You know, A writer is one who writes, you know?
- [06:30]
C
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
- [06:31]
B
You just gotta go do the thing. You know what I mean? If you go do the thing, you get better at doing the thing. People start reading the thing that you're actually putting out, and then you gain a following on Tumblr. And then publishing company goes like, hey, you're a writer. You want to write for us. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.
- [06:48]
C
And I think what's interesting is by the end of my screenwriting career, I did it for 10 years I was so lying with desperation and trying to sell the million dollar screenplay. Because if I could sell the screenplay, maybe that would save my marriage, maybe it would give me a sense of self. So I was starting to write for them instead of for me, right? And so when I started blogging, obviously you're not getting paid as a blogger, at least early days you weren't. And so it was just strictly for me. And so it made my writing more potent, right? I was now writing from inside out instead of outside in, right? Instead of chasing, I was attracting. And I think that changes energy, man. I think it changes your frequency. And whether you believe in manifestation or anything you can't see. Woo Woo. Shit. I think that alignment is what started to line up, start scaling.
- [07:35]
A
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- [08:43]
C
Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha Frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla smooth caramel maybe? Or a white chocolate mocha?
- [08:52]
B
Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits.
- [08:54]
C
Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries.
- [08:59]
B
Yeah, can you tell me about the identity shift that may or may not have occurred around that time? Like if you viewed yourself as being like this person and then went through all of this did, was there, was there some sort of like for you, a detachment to who you viewed yourself as being as I am a screenwriter. And then I'm not selling this how, like, who am I? What am I doing? What do I have to offer, right?
- [09:23]
C
Also, I have failed. Also, I'm a hack. You know, I can't make it as a writer. All of those false beliefs from those experiences. Then I went to therapy, school, started blogging. I didn't know I was doing this, but I put writing into a hope just. And locked it and told myself I would never, you know, open that. And then when I was blogging, I didn't see it as writing because I just was just writing my feelings. You know, it's like journaling hit post. So for some reason, I didn't consider that writing. And I was by blogging, and I was blogging every day, man. I had a lot of time and no friends. And so by blogging, I was connecting to the part of myself, the spirit of myself that I locked into a hope chest. And that reunion was powerful because my relationship with writing was now renewed. But now I was writing for me. It was something that I wanted to do, that I wasn't trying to sell anything, right? And so, yeah, I think the identity shifted from failed screenwriter to a therapist trying to humanize himself.
- [10:28]
B
Can you talk about the relationship between failure and success for a second? Just the. It seems like they, they. They sound like they're, you know, complete opposites, but in reality, I feel like in life, they actually kind of. It's like a marriage, you know, it's like a bickering couple. They just. They kind of go together.
- [10:49]
C
Yeah, I. I don't. I don't know. I don't. I feel like, you know, someone who's got fiery energy. I'm an Aries, and I always build the bus while I'm driving it. I don't really believe in failure anymore. I. I believe in, you know. You know, that whole thing of fail forward. I just feel like, you know, what, whatever you do, whatever you're building, it's going to feel honest to you or it won't. And I don't. I try to stay away from the word failure. Like, right now, I'm in Costa Rica. Our house burned down in the altitudinal fires a little bit over a year and a half ago. And I'm basically. This is why I said earlier that this is the act two of my life. I'm starting over. And one thing that I'm trying to learn how to do is surf. I've never surfed before.
- [11:26]
B
Nice.
- [11:27]
C
And if I define surfing as standing on a wave, or getting barrels or whatever, then I'm going to fail every single day. If I define surfing as, you know, putting an hour in the ocean and dancing with the waves, you know, whether you stand up, don't. Doesn't matter, you're just out putting in reps, then there are no bad days. I'm not failing. And so I just think the word failure can prevent you from your. Your potential, you know?
- [11:56]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the. The whole, you know, you either win or you learn. You know, there's not. There's not really failure like. Failure.
- [12:03]
C
Yeah.
- [12:04]
B
Failure is when you bench yourself. You take yourself out of the game, you quit, you stop trying, you stop learning, growing. That's. That's what failure is. It's not the actual act of not, quote, unquote, succeeding at the thing you set out to succeed at on the first attempt. You know what I mean? And I feel. And please tell me if you. If you think this is true. It seems to me, anyway, I don't have a lot of data to support this sort of anecdotal. It seems to me that it's the fear. It's not even necessarily the fear of failure. It's the fear of what people will think about you if they perceive you as being a failure. It's the almost. It's the embarrassment. It's the, like, societal status that prevents people from going after the thing that they really, truly want. Because if it's public and then people see it and then you don't do exactly what you thought you were going to be able to do, then everybody else is going to perceive you as being a failure. And that is something that people can't stand. It's not even like if. If the failure was, you know, guaranteed to not make it out to the public and they weren't going to hear about it, then I think more people would try to do what they actually want.
- [13:08]
A
Yeah.
- [13:08]
C
I feel like underneath failure is the seeking approval, validation, basing your worth on what other people think of you. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something we all struggle with, I think especially now with social media and everything being so public, you know?
- [13:23]
B
Yeah. Well, I want to talk about your. Your new book, Love Hard on Purpose. Where did this book come from? Why now, man?
- [13:31]
C
15 to 20 years of love, lessons from my own personal life. And then, of course, helping hundreds of clients with love. I mean, speaking of failure, if you define your relationship as failed or not failed, that could be a really big stain. You know, people who divorce and there's so much divorce these days, thinking that they failed in their marriage. It's a trap, and it's not true, because you're only 50% of any relationship, right. So you could be quote, unquote, perfect, but there's still this other 50% that you don't have control over, this other being, this other person. And so you should never define any relationship as something that you failed at.
- [14:09]
B
Yeah. What about Loving yourself? Is this something that you cover in this book?
- [14:14]
C
Yeah, yeah. I have another book called Sing On Purpose, and that was more about loving yourself. What that looks like. I tell people I found myself through bar bills, donuts and motorcycles. And after my divorce, man, that's. That. That, like, I didn't know what I was doing, but that's actually how I found myself. I bought a motorcycle, I found CrossFit, and I love. I give myself permission to have something like a donut. And, man, I was like Keanu Reeves sitting on a park bench. I spent a lot of time by myself in la, riding, but hitting flow states, right. And then getting comfortable with myself, eating alone at restaurants, you know, trying to discover, like, what I like, who I am, that whole thing. And of course, I dated here and there, but I was single on purpose for about four years, and it was pivotal. Because of that, I brought more to the table in my next relationship. You know, I had a stronger sense of self.
- [15:02]
B
I built something. I hear more and more people talking about this idea of the lonely chapter. Like, before you. Before you can make sort of this big stride, this next evolution of who you're becoming, there's sort of just this necessary almost crucible that you need to go through where it's just.
- [15:19]
C
Yeah.
- [15:20]
B
With your thoughts.
- [15:21]
C
Right. Of passing, you know, you.
- [15:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [15:24]
C
And I wouldn't even say the lonely chapter. I would say the chapter of solitude.
- [15:28]
B
Yeah. The alone is. Yeah. Being alone or. Or.
- [15:32]
C
Oh, being alone. Yeah, yeah. Solitude. You know, when you fall in love and you're dating, it's hard to find a sense of self because love gets in the way. And love is powerful, man, and it's addictive. And that dynamic, because that swirl that, you know, that riptide, it's going to prevent you from the things that are maybe uncomfortable that you need to sit in, you know? And so a lot of people just go from relationship to relationship, and they never really grow and evolve. And the only thing that changes are faces, you know? And so to be single on purpose was prescribed. I think it's prescribed for anyone, you know, after an expired relationship.
- [16:08]
B
And it's the only real thing that can help you have more meaningful relationships in general anyway. You know, like if you, if you have, if you don't have a good relationship with yourself, you're going to struggle in your relationships with others. It's just, it has to come, it has to come out in some regard. And I think, I think there's a misconception with people. They look especially romantic relationships as like the thing that's going to solve what's happening on the inside, you know, and they look to, they look to their partner as the person who's going to make them happy or the person that's going to solve their problems. And it's like, no, no, you are individually responsible for your own happiness, as is your partner. It's just that the relationship can come together and be this like beautiful amplification of how you feel about each other. It's not going to solve those internal problems that you're, that you're coming up against. Those are going to have to be done in solitude.
- [17:03]
C
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- [17:30]
B
your own. What are some of the things that you maybe learned while you were writing this book?
- [17:37]
C
Oh man. When I was writing Love Hard on Purpose, one of the things I learned, I learned is the power of the corrective love experience. And this is kind of what the theme of the book is. You know, you could read about love and you could listen to podcasts and you get a lot of information, but until you give yourself an imprint, right, until you give your body a feeling that love is safe or, you know, some, some, some kind of feeling that you didn't get before because love wasn't safe or love wasn't whatever. That is how you rewire yourself and that is how you start to be attracted to something different. Because a lot of us, we know a lot, you know, and we're scrolling and we're taking in all this advice from love coaches and therapists and all that, but until your body actually starts to feel what healthy love feels like, it's going to be hard to be convinced, you know, you will still be a walking reaction.
- [18:28]
B
Love Hard on purpose. Please go pick up a copy of John's new book. I know you will benefit from that tremendously. John. I want to shift the conversation, talk a little bit about the business behind this stuff. You're living a lot of people's dream right now, you know, like being able to be sort of nomadic and live in Costa Rica and travel the world and do all of that by just writing from your computer, building a following, writing about things that matter to you. What would be your advice to any would be creators who are, who are listening to this right now, whether they want to be social, creator, YouTuber, a writer, whatever it is.
- [19:07]
C
Yeah, this actually comes from screenwriting. You gotta find your voice. Especially today with AI, whether you write books or you make movies, it really doesn't matter what you do. You know, a lot of friends that have brick and mortar businesses, they always make fun of me and say I play with my phone for a living because I've been making content for so long. And they're also very envious of that, that I could be nomadic and I could just make videos and make residual income off book royalties, etc. But all of it started with a voice. All of it started with a guy going through a divorce with a broken heart and finding his voice again. And I feel like if you don't have a voice, it's. There's just so much noise today. I think you have to start with voice. And of course, you know, that leads to brands and other things, but I don't even like the word brand. It feels very strategic. It doesn't feel authentic. But when you can find your voice, right, the lenses you wear, how you see the world, your angle, and if you know that everything has been done, but your take on it is going to be what's new and fresh. It doesn't matter what the thing is, whether you're selling a subscription or a book or a retreat, it doesn't matter what the product is. Your voice and your story is going to be what, what, what gets people to pull the trigger, to buy, to subscribe, you know, to, to follow. And so finding your voice, I think, is at the top.
- [20:24]
B
What about consistency? Can you talk about what it like for you at the beginning?
- [20:29]
C
Yeah, yeah. Logistic. You know what's funny is I've had people say like, oh, you're so lucky. You know, you, you, you have these text messages that people subscribe to and you're making money off this and that, and you're, you know, and I'm like, okay, so you, you started, I know you put in a week or maybe A month. And you realize it's frustrating and you can't get followers or whatever. I just want you to know that before social media was even Invented, I wrote 5,000 blog posts.
- [20:57]
B
Yeah, right.
- [20:57]
C
You know, I'm on book nine. I have over a thousand podcast episodes. Yeah. Me talking to myself. I mean, if you want to talk about putting reps in, then after that, tell me. This is hard. It's frustrated. But, no, I'm not lucky, man. I'm consistent, you know, so I'm in the GaryVee camp, man. I post, I document my story, and I've been posting three, four times a day for the last 15 years. And, and I'm not saying it's easy. Of course there are days where you hate it. You, you know, like I'm, you know, you're losing followers or whatever. But I try to see it cumulatively, and I try to see this as I'm 53 now and I've swam too far to turn back. I'm documenting my story. I don't see it as, like, content or whatever. I'm just documenting my story, man. You know? And so when I die, my daughter could look back and she could actually listen to or watch every chapter of my life.
- [21:48]
B
Totally.
- [21:48]
C
And to me, that's very valuable.
- [21:50]
B
Yeah, it's the ancillary benefits of creation. You know what I mean? The things that you think about, like, you don't. Most people don't get into it for those reasons, but I found that to be. You know, we've been pod. This, this podcast been up for almost nine years now, and almost 2,2000 episodes. And it's, it's almost like you said, it's like. It's almost like an audio journal of my life. I can tune into myself talking in 2017 and hear my own stream of consciousness at that time of my life and who I was and what I was thinking about and the things that mattered to me at that time, the questions I was asking, guests who were coming on my show, the people that I was talking to, you know what I mean? You can see in real time the, the evolution of becoming who you are, and I think that's wildly underrated.
- [22:35]
C
Yeah.
- [22:36]
B
Yeah. John, what are you, what are you thinking about these days? What's got you excited now nowadays?
- [22:42]
C
Surf, sex, and pancakes. It's, it's, it's my retreat, you know, I feel like I died in the fires in Los Angeles a year and a half ago, and I am living a completely different life, man. I, I, I came here, I bought a Golf cart, shaved my head and took up surfing. And so in Costa Rica, it's very easy to seek nectar. And so I'm obsessed with surfing. Surfing. I surf. Sex and pancakes. And you know, they're metaphors, right? So surf as in flow states, sex as in connection, some kind of intimacy. And pancakes being, you know, what used to be the donut. But yeah, I'm rediscovering life. My eyes are open, I'm noticing trees. And so I have a lot to write about or to make content about.
- [23:22]
B
Yeah, tell me real quick about the fires, man. I, I knew this was going to be part of the conversation because you and I were actually supposed to have an in person interview that week. Oh, in la? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was, I was, I was in LA for those fires. And I think you were the first person that you're, you're. I didn't even realize what was going on. I was sitting in a coffee shop doing some prep work for our chat and your team reached out to me. You're like, hey, John's aspirin down? Yeah, he's evacuating right now. And I was like, yeah, what's going on? What are you talking about? You know what I mean?
- [23:53]
C
Yeah. You're like, that's no excuse. He should still be here.
- [23:56]
B
Exactly. And then like three of the other interviews that I had scheduled during the LA trip, all canceled for the same reason. I was like, I should probably turn on the news and see what's going on. But, yeah, pretty. I mean, devastating time, man. Tell me about that. That time.
- [24:10]
C
Yeah, I mean, so many feelings, like, of course, devastation, man, when you lose your house. I remember that day feeling like, how do you, how do I remember? I remember witnessing the fire in the car, on my knees, crying. It looked like post apocalyptic. No one was there. There wasn't firefighters, there was no police. It was just smoke. I wasn't supposed to be there. There was literally fires close enough where I could toss a quarter and touch a fire. And I remember getting into my car because I knew this was very dangerous. I need to get the fuck out. And going back to the hotel where my family, my. My wife and child was. And I remember thinking, how am I supposed to tell my wife and child we, we lost everything. Like, we lost, you know, her, her photos, the fucking growth lines, the pain. Like everything in the house is gone. And I didn't know anything about logistics like insurance or how are we going to recover? And I thought, what, what, what do we do?
- [25:04]
B
Yeah.
- [25:05]
C
And going from that to, oh, My God, so much has happened since then. But now in Costa Rica, living a different life, I feel like it allowed me to do things that we would never do, like move to a new country and so huge silver linings behind what happened. And now I see the fire as a catalyst to just my evolution, man. I mean, you know, I used to get a merm with long hair and ride motorcycles. All that's gone. And I feel like it needed to be gone for me to start over. I mean, speaking of identity. Right. To sit with something new. But, yeah, I mean, I could go on for an hour of, of how that's changed my life and lenses. But I, I see it as. I don't want to say blessing. I want to be sensitive to people who have lost so much.
- [25:46]
B
Sure.
- [25:46]
C
But it's, it's definitely. I'm able to see the, the, the silver lining, the gifts in the, The, The. The tragic, you know?
- [25:53]
B
Yeah. John, I appreciate you for, for putting your voice out into the world. I appreciate you for taking the time to come on the show. I know you're a busy guy. I don't take that for granted. Where can people go to get more from you and everything you're working on?
- [26:03]
C
Just the Angry Therapist across the board.
- [26:05]
B
Anywhere at the Angry Therapist. Go check out some of the stuff that John's putting out. His content's fantastic. Go pick up a copy of his new book, Love Hard on Purpose. John, appreciate taking the time. Everybody else tuning in, remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace.