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Travis Makes Money
INTERVIEW | Make Money by Following Your Energy and Finding Meaningful Work with Lisa Marchiano
00:24:26
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- [00:00]
Travis
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- [01:04]
Lisa Marchiano
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.
- [01:07]
Travis
So let's go back in time a little bit, Lisa, if you'll allow me. Okay. Tell me the first time you ever got excited about making a dollar. Like the first time that you were just like, I cannot believe that somebody paid me money to do this. This is incredible.
- [01:23]
Lisa Marchiano
Well, what I, what I, there's something pretty close to that is I remember when I had a job when I was in my 20s and I was, know, doing the things, I was paying my rent, I was buying my clothes and I think I went shopping for like something for the kitchen and I, you know, just went in and I paid for it and I was like, it like hit me right, that I was, I was supporting myself.
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Travis
Yeah.
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Lisa Marchiano
Everything I was spending was my money. And it was a very empowering feeling.
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Travis
What, what was your initial intent coming out of, out of high school? Like what, what were you wanting to do with your life, your career? Did it end up looking at all similar to that?
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Lisa Marchiano
You know, I think when I, when I started college, I thought I was going to study anthropology and I didn't wind up studying anthropology. And then I studied history. And then of course, I didn't know what the heck I was going to do with that. So I wound up working for international nonprofits for a number of years and then thought, no, this isn't right. And then I went back to graduate school and became a therapist and eventually a Jungian analyst.
- [02:27]
Travis
Oh, really interesting. So definitely a roundabout path there. Do you have any advice for young people that are sort of on a similar journey right now where they're just kind of like they're doing something, it's working to a certain extent, but they're just not exactly, you know, fired up about it?
- [02:42]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, I mean, I would just say in general, follow the energy, notice what gives you energy, and get curious about that and, you know, see if there's any possible way that you can turn that into your career. And a lot of times you'd be surprised. You know, there is. You know, you graduate from college and you don't even know what all the potential jobs that are out there.
- [03:06]
Travis
Right.
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Lisa Marchiano
But if you just keep on following, following the energy and working hard and sort of showing up, you can often find your way.
- [03:15]
Travis
Yeah. The thing we always talk about on the show is success is like a spiral staircase. You know, you can only see the next step. You can't see long, far into the distance. You might not even be sure what the outcome is or what the destination is going to be. But that should not prevent you from taking the next step that you have.
- [03:32]
Lisa Marchiano
I really like that kind of doing the next right thing.
- [03:35]
Travis
Yeah, yeah. There's. Eventually you'll end up where you need to end up. You know what I mean? And obviously this is the path that you've ended up on. Why Carl Jung? Why was this something that caught your attention so much? Obviously, I'm assuming this is. You got maybe turned on to his works during school when you decided to become a therapist.
- [03:52]
Lisa Marchiano
No, actually, I. I had a. I had a quarter life crisis when I was 28, and I felt lost and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I felt like my life had fallen and I was really kind of in a bad way. And I found a book, and this was a book that was written by a Jungian analyst. And I started reading it and it was like literally, you know, but this book changed my life. I mean, this book literally changed my life. My life is different because of that book. And I was fascinated. It was a. It was a book written by a Jungian analyst about just love, relationships. And I'd never thought of things that way, but when I was reading it, it was sort of like rediscovering a mother tongue that I didn't know I spoke. It was. It was sort of like, oh, yeah, this all makes sense. This just seems so natural. And by the time I finished that book, I was like, I wonder what it would be like to be a Jungian analyst. So eventually, I mean, it's a long road. I had to go and get a mental health degree in order to train as a Jungian analyst. So when I went back to social work school, it was with the goal of becoming an analyst. So it was talk about a spiral staircase, long and winding.
- [05:00]
Travis
How does that work exactly? So you, you wanted to be Jungian analyst, but you would like is. Are there, there's schools for this, like certification programs and you have to present a bachelor's degree in order to get accepted into them or how does that work?
- [05:14]
Lisa Marchiano
So analytic training, whether it's Jungian training or Freudian training or any other kind of psychoanalytic schools, they're not academic. So there are these institutes and these were for the most part kind of set up, you know, to, to, to kind of spread the ideas of Freud and other people. So they're. Every school kind of has its own institute or several across the United States and even internationally. But to be accepted into Jungian analytic training, you need to have a mental health degree in most cases. So I needed to get a license to practice a clinical practice specialty. In my case it was social work because that was kind of the quickest, cheapest and easiest. So I went and I got a social work degree from New York University. I got licensed and then I started analytic training. Analytic training is kind of academic. You do take classes and learn things and have to write papers. But it's also a lot about personal stuff. You have to be in analysis the whole time you're in, you have to be in supervision. So you're talking about cases. So it's, it's, it's, it's not purely academic. It's a lot about kind of self development as well.
- [06:30]
Travis
Almost like a, like personally anecdotal trade school for.
- [06:37]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I like that. Yeah.
- [06:40]
Travis
Why did you, or why do you feel like you have clung on to Carl Jung's work versus Freud or an Adler or some of the other.
- [06:51]
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- [08:15]
Travis
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- [09:22]
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- [09:36]
Lisa Marchiano
to chime.com disclosures yeah, you know, like I said, when I first came across Jung's work, it was just like this feels. I mean, first of all, it's really beaut. Beautiful. It's more strengths based than say Freud, which is more based on pathology. I mean, Jung's underlying thesis is that we naturally gravitate towards becoming more whole and that symptoms erupt when we're blocked in some way. So it kind of starts from a strengths assumption rather than a pathology assumption. So there's something very aesthetically appealing about it. There's an interest in dreams and fairy tales and archetypal material and mythology. And it also just really struck me as profoundly true. And I would say that it was effective in my life in terms of helping me grow and develop and get a better life. And I've seen it be really effective in the lives of the people that I work with. It has a kind of spiritual orientation to it.
- [10:39]
Travis
Yeah, I was going to say it feel like it feels at least to me as an outsider. And I have not done a deep dive into, into his work specifically, but it seems to me more like venturing into philosophy rather than pure psychology, like more holistic understanding of human life.
- [10:58]
Lisa Marchiano
Right, yeah. And some people would say actually mysticism, you know, but it sort of depends on, on which tack you want to take with it. But look, one of Jung's major ideas was that people need to have meaning in their lives and that we suffer when we don't have meaning. So it's, it's a little bit more than just, you know, here, here, here are the dysfunctional adaptive patterns that you have in your relationships. Right. It goes a little deeper.
- [11:27]
Travis
Yeah, Like I just, I like subscribe. So like my overarching philosophy on philosophies is basically do whatever you want as long like believe whatever you want, do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else and as long as it's useful to you. I've found that a lot of things that I've studied in the psychology world, some of it's just not, it's like, it's just not super useful to believe, to internalize. And it's like I want something more practical. I want something that at least Gives me. If. If control is an illusion, I would rather be under the illusion of that control rather than just like, subscribe to something that's just, well, I guess everything's out of my hands or some. Some form of determinism or. Or, you know, nihilism that brings you down a path of, well, stuff's gonna happen and it's out of my control, and it is what it is. And so I'm not gonna do anything to try to prevent anything or create change in my life, because no matter what I do, I'm still gonna end up where I'm supposed to be because everything's predetermined anyway.
- [12:29]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, I. I like that. I mean, and. And actually, one of the things that's appealing to me about Jung is he was a real phenomenologist. He was interested in just what he saw and what could he could observe. And he was interested in what worked. And he says that many times in his writings. And he also said, if you think you've discovered a truth, don't spread it around until you yourself have lived it for a while and see, does it really help? Because. Because it. If it helps, it's true is kind of what he says.
- [12:58]
Travis
Yeah, right. If it helps, it's true. I love that. Have there been, I assume, you know, jumping into it in the deep end like you did? I assume that you have also looked at a bunch of other school of psychology, philosophy and things like that. What, to you are some of the key differences between Jung's work and some of the other more prominent folks?
- [13:21]
Lisa Marchiano
Well, there's definitely a lot of overlap. Right. I mean, the thing is, most schools of psychology have a ton in common. They may all use different language, but when you sit down and you read it, you realize a lot of the times we're talking about the same thing. So I don't want to say that, you know, Jung has this, you know, proprietary. Proprietary claim on. On a lot of ideas. But, you know, like I said, it's a little bit more of maybe a whole attitude toward life, a whole philosophy. It's a little bit more about meaning and spirituality. It's less about just simply, here's. Here's an understanding of why psychopathology develops. And it's more about. Here is something that's true about being human, for example, and here's how that might affect you. There's an interest in the kind of universals that sit underneath everyone's experience. And there's a real interest in imagery and maybe. Maybe the big idea, which is that we are a conscious ego that kind of sits on top of the giant unconscious. And that the unconscious can be creative.
- [14:44]
Travis
The unconscious can be creative, yes.
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Lisa Marchiano
It's not simply a place. You know, Freud said the unconscious is where things go when we forget about them or we repress them or maybe they just never make it past the threshold of consciousness. So it's almost like the dust bin. Jung said. Yeah, that's all true. And new things can come from the unconscious. So when you have a creative idea, I mean, I think I didn't come up with that idea. The unconscious tossed it to me. You know, it's like, hey, we tossed this to you. See what you do with it. So your dreams or an intuition or a weird idea that you just had, or a really creative idea that occurred to you when you were in the shower. That all comes from the unconscious. And we can have a creative relationship with that unconscious. And that makes our lives richer, fuller, and sometimes more profitable.
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Sponsor Voice 1
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Travis
The unconscious mind is sort of like a supercomputer. Right. It can process tens of thousands of thoughts at any given second based on information you've received from you living your life. But also evolutionary information that has been passed down through gene expression over generations and generations.
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Lisa Marchiano
Exactly.
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Travis
Conscious mind can only focus on one thing at a time. So it's makes sense to like listen to that, to that internal stirring from time to time. Because it probably is actually making decisions based off of a lot more useful information.
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Lisa Marchiano
Yes.
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Travis
Rather than you consciously trying to come up with a conclusion.
- [16:19]
Lisa Marchiano
Absolutely.
- [16:20]
Travis
To some degree. Anyway. I love that you mentioned that this is something that, that it. That all of these schools like have some base layer of truth. It sort of feels, feels like religion to me. I grew up extremely religious and I'm not anymore. And I think I've experienced that similarly in the religious world because I just think like, well, seemingly there's like 10
- [16:43]
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- [17:12]
Lisa Marchiano
So good, so good, so good.
- [17:14]
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- [17:35]
Travis
That's why you rack the information that is, that is true across all religions, no matter where you're from, what culture you grew up in, what God you subscribe to, or what book you read from. Be good to people, be kind, love others, love yourself. Like that's all like the meat that, that most religions would agree on. And then it's sort of like the additional, you know, 70, 80, 90%, whatever it is, that's just very cultural, that's very contextual. And there can be value to learning from all of these as long as we understand that, like really, let's make sure that we subscribe to this base level of truth here. And then ask yourself the question, is this useful to me or is or is this not useful to me? I'm curious, when you jumped into this space, did you have any idea that it would end up being the business that it's become, or did you have a different idea of what that was going to look like when you were done with it?
- [18:28]
Lisa Marchiano
No. I mean, I certainly hoped that I would one day have a private practice and, you know, be able to make a decent living from seeing patients. It was a complete and utter shock to me that I was an entrepreneur. I had no idea that I had that as a skill set. And it's been really fun, so.
- [18:51]
Travis
I'm sure it has. Yeah. Any, any part of it that was like, surprising to you?
- [18:57]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, I would say the whole thing is really surprising. In a way. It was a little surprising how much I liked making money. I mean, I should say that before I became an analyst, I always worked for nonprofits. And I think before I started my practice as an analyst, I'm going to say that I don't think I ever cracked 50 grand a year for a salary, so. And you know, that was fine for me. Like a values driven life has always been important. I've wanted to, I've wanted to have values and live according to those. And I mean, that's, that's definitely still true because I feel like whatever I'm doing, as long as it's in service to this larger mission of helping people, of kind of giving the people tools to explore themselves more. And frankly, helping people learn about Jung, because I feel like Jung is really valuable. If that's the mission, then whatever I do that's aligned with that mission is I'm good with that. And if I happen to make money in the meantime, all the better. So it sort of feels like the number one thing is the mission. And then below that, it's like, wow, look at my bank account. So I never set out to kind of be an entrepreneur or build these businesses, but here's the thing. It's so creative. That is really fun because I do have just the kind of psychic makeup where I'm always coming up with new ideas. And I used to feel a lot of shame about that because my ideas can be so kind of crazy and my ideas can be inconvenient. And it's the kind of thing, like when I was a kid, I'd be like, I have this idea, and my parents would kind of grown, you know, and. And my husband kind of drives them crazy. It's like, oh, my God, you're going to start a podcast. Why? You don't have time. But it. But in recent years, I've just sort of claimed it. I'm like, yeah, I have a lot of ideas, and some of them are not good and some of them go nowhere, and some of them are really good and make money.
- [20:58]
Travis
That's right.
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Lisa Marchiano
So how fun is that?
- [20:59]
Travis
Yeah.
- [21:00]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah. So it's. I think it's the creativity of it.
- [21:02]
Travis
Yeah. And the practical application of the ideas ends up mattering along the way. And like you said, some of them don't work out. In fact, at least in my experience, most of my ideas don't work out. So in order to find the ones that do work, you gotta be willing to play with the ones that even. That don't end up working along the way.
- [21:20]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, And I love the. I love the word play because it does feel that way to me. It's like, well, what if I did this? And what if I did this? And again, it feels good because it's all wonderful, good stuff that I'm happy to bring to people that feels, like, aligned with who I am. And then. And then, like I said, and if it happens to help people and make money, how great is that?
- [21:45]
Travis
Is there a morality inherently implied with money, or is money a neutral tool that can be used one way or the other?
- [21:56]
Lisa Marchiano
I. I guess I see it more as neutral. I mean, that's a super interesting question. I haven't thought about it deeply. One of the ways that I think about money is kind of psychologically, like when I'm working with someone clinically, that money is sort of a symbol of our life energy. So if you're gonna. If you're gonna spend, I don't know, $15,000 on a Birkin bag. That's a lot of life energy for that thing. And you could be curious about that exchange. And if you're putting a lot of your life energy into a project and you're getting paid for it, that can feel really good. It could or it cannot feel good. So I think it's really so linked to who we are most of the time that it's kind of worth questioning. How are we spending our life energy? How much life energy are we spending to make money? Those kinds of questions.
- [23:00]
Travis
As someone whose intention was not to make money, when you started doing these things, have you. Have you ever felt guilty about it?
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Lisa Marchiano
You know, I haven't. Because. Because, like I said, I feel like I know what the mission is.
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Travis
Yeah.
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Lisa Marchiano
And I check in with myself all the time. Is this aligned with the mission? And as long as I'm clear about that, as long as it's. As. As long as I know why I'm doing it and that money is a motivation, I want to say, but not the main motivation, then why should I feel guilty? You know, another thing I want to say about that, Travis, is, you know, who feels guilty about making money? Women. I have a friend who got a book deal that was considerable, and she was in crisis, and she called me up and she told me that she was just beside herself because she kind of didn't feel worthy. And I said to her, I said, how do you think so. And so who was a man would feel if he got that book deal? And she went, oh, you know, that's all I needed. So, yeah, and I, you know, and I, you know, I. I support causes that are meaningful to me. I try to make life choices that are in line with my values. I'm, you know, I'm contributing to my family. My. My. My husband's been able to kind of cut back on work, and he worked. Worked really, really hard for a long time, and now he can work a little bit less. So it doesn't feel like greed. It feels like abundance.
- [24:37]
Travis
That's right. Yeah. There's a big difference. There's a big difference. It's more like the. It's. It's the. It's the scoreboard of the mission. You know, it's almost like that to track the fact that, like, you have made a significant impact on people's lives. Your podcast has gotten millions of downloads, and clearly there's a large segment of the population who genuinely wants to get this information in their hands, and you are providing a way to do that. The Money is just the scoreboard that allows you to keep track of how many people you've helped along the way, you know?
- [25:08]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, that's right.
- [25:10]
Travis
Well, I appreciate you for taking the time to come on, Lisa. I know you're a very busy person, so I don't take that for granted. Where can people go to get more from you and some of the stuff that you've been putting out?
- [25:19]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, you can check out my website, which is Lisa Marchiano.com that's my author website and has some other information there. And the podcast website is this unionlife.com Perfect.
- [25:31]
Travis
Love it. Thank you so much for taking the time. I love having these types of conversations on the show from time to time. So thank you for following my random questions. I appreciate it.
- [25:38]
Lisa Marchiano
Yeah, no, I loved it. This was really interesting. Thank you so much.
- [25:41]
Travis
Everybody else tuning in. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems and you got some money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace.