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Travis Makes Money
INTERVIEW | Make Money by Getting Out of Your Own Way with Gary John Bishop
00:27:09
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- [00:01]
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- [00:30]
Podcast Host (Travis)
You are listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com
- [00:43]
Travis
travis what is going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's our mission to help you make more money. On this episode of the show, I have a new friend, Gary John Bishop. He's one of the most influential voices in modern personal development. Known for being a rare combination of philosophical depth, brutal honesty and practical insight to the question of how people change. New York Times best selling author with millions of books sold worldwide, his work has reached readers across every walk of life. From business leaders and professional athletes to therapists and military organizations. Rejecting feel good motivation and quick fixes, Gary's approach challenges people to confront the truths they've been avoiding and create lives grounded in authenticity, responsibility and possibility. Gary, what's up man? Welcome to the show.
- [01:28]
Gary John Bishop
Great Travis, thanks for having me.
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Travis
Of course, man, of course I'm happy to have you on. I want to, I want to talk right off the, right off the get go here about the motivational world that you operate in, the self help personal development world. What initially brought you down this path? Was it something in college that happened? Was it a, you know, something that happened in life? What brought you down this road, yourself personally, before you even started writing about it?
- [01:53]
Gary John Bishop
Yeah, my life sucked. So, you know, when you're at that point in your life and it sucks, and you're looking around yourself and you're wondering what's going on and how you ended up here. And I had no insight about myself, you know, I mean there was no self discovery. I was just, you know, competitive, determined, hardworking, driving ahead. And then, and then it was actually a relative of mine said, you know, you should do this workshop that I did, you know, and you have to get. Travis at the time, the idea of a workshop just had made my blood turn like vegetable Soup. You know, I'm just like, are you kidding me? Like me, A workshop? Yeah. And then, and then he said, I'll pay for it. And then I said, when is it?
- [02:44]
Travis
Do they have a lunch buffet?
- [02:46]
Gary John Bishop
Yeah, donuts. But anyway, I did it and it was really revealing. It was. It was brilliant. It gave me insight into myself. Not like psychological, more just like, this is how I function, this is how I do things. And then it just grew from there. You know, at some point in that journey, you get your nose out of your own belly button and you start wondering about what it is to be alive for anybody and not really just setting you off on the path.
- [03:19]
Travis
Do you remember what the workshop was? Was it. Was it a, like personal development thing? Was it a money thing? Was it a completely personal development thing?
- [03:26]
Gary John Bishop
You know, and I, and I did a bunch of them after that, you know, with different people, different organizations. And I put a lot of that down to. I mean, really, it just gave me an opportunity to think, you know, like, I was so myopic. I was so caught in the trap of my own life, I never got the chance to really think. And so, yeah, once that journey had started, you know, there was no holding me back.
- [03:52]
Travis
Do you ever get mistaken for Mark Manson?
- [03:56]
Gary John Bishop
No. The only thing we have in. I mean, obviously I've, I've. I think I went in the accent stakes. So if you can't tell I'm Scottish or a gym leader. I've got two accents now, so. No, I never do. It was funny, you know, his book came out some months before mine. Yeah, but our books were like the trailblazers, you know, like we really opened up.
- [04:20]
Travis
That's why I asked. I feel like before your guys books it was like, you know, it was, it was too professional to put a curse word on your book. Especially. Especially the. The mother of all curse words on your book.
- [04:32]
Gary John Bishop
Oh, 100%. Yeah.
- [04:33]
Travis
But then both of you guys released both of your books and they both went insane.
- [04:37]
Gary John Bishop
Right, right. And then the funny thing was a lot of people tried to piggyback on it, but it still has to be a good book. Exactly. Yeah. You can write all the curse words you want, but it still has to be a good book.
- [04:50]
Travis
Putting fuck in your title does not mean your book is actually good.
- [04:53]
Gary John Bishop
It's not. And the interesting thing was, I think this is one of the things that we had in common. We were like the anti guru thing. I'm not into the whole idea of being somebody's guru and positivity. Never just. It just never Worked for me. I just would roll my eyeballs at it. You know, I wanted to know. I wanted to know what it's like when the dirt's under your fingernails and you're struggling. Like, I don't want somebody to tell me, well, you know, choose happiness. But come on, you know, that never worked for me.
- [05:23]
Travis
Yeah. So can you tell me what did work for you? That's what draws me to your work. That's what draws me to Manson's work. It's what. Because I'm also in that sort of space. And the tagline for my other show is self help without the bullshit. Because there is so much bullshit that you have to wade through when you're in the space. Although it should not prevent you from doing the work of figuring out what's going to work for you. Because ultimately it is the path in life. Like the path is self improvement, making yourself a better version of yourself. And you cannot do it without having to wade through a little bit of bullshit along the way. But hopefully you get there sooner rather than later because I think some people get lost in that. The quicksand of bullshit that they just get sucked into and can't figure out a path forward. So tell me exactly what worked for you versus what maybe other people you would work that you never found to work.
- [06:14]
Gary John Bishop
It was the hard truths worked for me. It was the stuff that I would have sworn was never true. It was the stuff I would have defended about myself. That was the stuff I would have said, you know? Well, yeah, I mean, sometimes, but most of the times I'm this guy or. And you know, I didn't even realize that when it came to myself, I already had an edited explanation for it. And that's true of all of us. We've got an edited explanation. We're always seeing it from a side of the fence. So I prefer to look at it more. I didn't look at it like self help. I looked at it as self discovery. I looked at it more like if I could just look at me in a neutral way, in a way without any bias, and hear it without the need to defend anything. I need to defend anything or explain any or justify anything, just to look at it for what's there. It was incredibly humbling and. And I think everybody needs humbling in their life. I think everybody needs. If you don't have that in your life, I think you're going to find yourself a little disconnected from what's going on around you. So. So those kind of truths were so juicy, so revealing. So empowering when you, when you let go of trying to punish yourself for stuff you've done or not done, you know, those, those were the big elements for me.
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Podcast Host (Travis)
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- [09:32]
Travis
Yeah, that was my next question is how do you be really brutally honest with yourself without venturing too far into really like self deprecation where, where you are just ridiculing yourself and then you're all of a sudden you don't like yourself or respect yourself or trust yourself and because you were almost maybe too honest or something or maybe you just went a little bit too far with it. Is there a line?
- [09:55]
Gary John Bishop
I would say you should start with the Idea that when you get into self blame, it's another distraction to keep you away from the truth. So if you just start there, like this is another get out of jail free card. It's not somebody else's fault, now it's mine. It doesn't bring you anywhere, it doesn't bring anything in light, it doesn't open up new pathways for you. And I think that's the tell, right? When you've got to the bone about something and it opens up a new pathway, you're right where you need to be. But if you get there and you're still dwelling in something, try on the idea that you're trying to escape something about your life, either where it's going or where it is.
- [10:36]
Travis
What about when it comes to forgiving yourself or like you, you. Maybe some things have gone wrong. You've. You've. You've gotten to the point where you've taken accountability, you've taken responsibility, want to move forward, but you feel trapped by the guilt and you're almost punishing yourself for something that you did in the past and you can't let it go.
- [10:55]
Gary John Bishop
Yeah, I think that's a very common place that people get themselves into. But to go along with the title of the new book, yet there's two words you have to ask yourself and you have to question yourself deeply. And that is now what? So here we are. You're punishing yourself, you're feeling guilty. Okay, now what? Right? And then you're going to have an answer to that question and you answer it honestly and then you ask the question again until you get to nothing. And you'll get to nothing. You'll get to know more excuses.
- [11:27]
Travis
Yeah, that's the thing, right? Is that, that's the question that I try to ask myself sometimes, is like, how long? You know, like how long is long enough? You know, because there is a. There is a point. You know what I mean? Is it 30 years from now? Is it one year from now? Is it three months from now? Is it a week from now? Is it today? Like at some point you gotta move on and you have to take the next step and take the next. Right action and take the next step up the spiral staircase where you can't see exactly where you're going. But there's. So there comes a point where that just. Is like that thing happened. Yes.
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Gary John Bishop
Right.
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Travis
Now what do we do about it?
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Gary John Bishop
There's something really important in there, though. Some people are waiting to feel different about it before doing it and about it.
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Travis
Yeah.
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Gary John Bishop
So they're like, oh, yeah, well, you know, I'm still dealing with the guilt. And I would say, okay, but so what? Yeah, so what if you're dealing with a guilt, so what if you're, you know, berating yourself and dragging. So what? Like, how is that impacting what you're doing right now or 10 minutes from now or tomorrow or this week? Like, at what point, at what point are you going to ask yourself, you know, are you going to deal with who am I that I've made this a reasonable excuse for not living my life fully?
- [12:45]
Travis
It's the last thing you want to do in that scenario is take any sort of action in a positive direction because it almost feels good to, like, sit and sulk. It almost feels good to. To. To punt, to quote, unquote, punish yourself, to allow yourself to sit in a depressive state because something that you did maybe affected your life negatively or affected lives of people closest to you negatively. And it almost feels like. It almost feels bad to do anything productive because it's like, shame on you. You shouldn't be allowed to be happy or move forward from this. You should have to sit with this forever, you know, but you gotta just take the next right action, which sometimes is just going for a walk.
- [13:24]
Gary John Bishop
Yeah, sometimes it is something really simple, like have a bath or something. You know, something just, like, really something really simple. But. But I think you're leading any. Something really powerful for people to understand, like how you feel and the direction that your life's taken. Don't have to line up. They don't have, but they will if you just leave it undisturbed. So it's almost like you take on this role of being an interrupter. Like, what am I interrupting? I'm interrupting the kind of synergy between how I feel and what I'm doing. And when I started taking that role on for myself, like, yeah, I do feel that way. I don't suppress it, I give it space, but at the same time, I don't indulge it. I'm not like, oh, yeah, well, let me just jump into the swell here, you know. No, let me just acknowledge that it's there. And then I look around and I say, well, what are actions that are lining up with, you know, what I'm after?
- [14:20]
Travis
Gary, I. So this, this podcast is the Travis Makes Money podcast. Obviously, we talk a lot about how to make more money, the mindset, skills, strategies, plans, tactics, all that kind of stuff. You've done a lot of work, obviously, when it comes to the mental side of things. How important have you found it to be, even in your own life? And your ability to make money, to get out of your own way, so to speak? How much of this is in the mind versus what people are doing with their actions?
- [14:46]
Gary John Bishop
All of it. I mean, first of all, people think it's of hints and tips and tricks and strategies, and those things are useful, but it's still you. You know, it's still. You know, an example that I. That I like to give is this was a number of years ago when I had a coaching business. And that was really the start for me when I started to write books. I'd been in the industry for a long time before that, but when I had my own coaching business and I was budgeting for a year, you know what I was going to do, and I had the Excel spreadsheet open. I'm working all that, and I'm like, okay, by the end of the year, I'm going to make this. And I'm sitting there, like, staring at the number, and I had no idea how I came up with that number. Like, it was just there, like. Like a target or something to go to. And the more I sat with that number, the more I realized that the number that was there was the number that I thought I could make. And. And I was com. And I don't know where I'd come up with it. It just seemed like a big number and it was wild for me. And I started to really confront myself with that. The limits were already there before I'd even drawn up the spreadsheet, had already determined that this year is the year of X. And then. So I started to think about, well, what if I doubled that? What if I made that the number? What would I have to do? And it opened me up to a whole other kind of thinking. I started to realize that the only thinking I could really do at that point when I said, let me double, it was just double what I'm doing, just do double what I'm doing. And I realized that was not what this was going to take. So anyway, I hung the double number out there and I really took on my business, how I do business, how I find clients. I just attacked the whole thing. In fact, that was part of the process of me writing the book and my first book. And so I doubled the number and I made myself the promise that that's what this year's about. It's not about trying to get there. It's delivery. How do I deal with. There's no instant answer. There's Just like, I'm cracking away now every day, every week, every month. So that year, I did a double debt, and I actually doubled the number three years in a row.
- [17:09]
Travis
Wow.
- [17:10]
Gary John Bishop
So I went double. And then.
- [17:12]
Podcast Host (Travis)
And then.
- [17:12]
Gary John Bishop
But every year, I had to be willing to burn down the model and rebuild it and had to be willing to burn down the model and rebuild it, and that's all I did. I just burnt it down. Like, I had this. Had the courage to be like, all right, so that was great for what that was. But that's not double.
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Travis
Yeah.
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Gary John Bishop
And I had to confront a whole. And it's very unsettling, by the way. It's unsettling, unnerving, confronting. But at the same time, there's something. There's something brilliant about it because you're like, you're at sea a little bit, you know, but it's a good uncertainty, you know, like, because you have this kind of feeling that you're up to something, you know, like, you got the bit between your teeth. So that was revolutionary for me because I'd spent, you know, whatever, three decades in my adult life struggling with money, and then three years blowing the doors off it.
- [18:06]
Travis
Yeah. Yeah. What's interesting to me about this conversation, and I'd love for you to speak into this, because I've, you know, as I've been around this world now for coming up on nine years now, we've been doing the podcast almost like 1800, 1900 episodes, over a thousand interviews. We talked to a bunch of people in the space. And I've noticed this now there's almost like a parody trend online where people are making parodies of all the people who are, like, big, you know, gurus in the space. And I'm a fan of basically any form of comedy, so they always make me laugh. But one of the ones that I see all the time is, like, you know, there'll be like a clip of some guru or something saying something about, like, well, just 10x that, and then, you know, 10x that or whatever. And then you see somebody parodying and be like, just a thousand exit. Just a. Just a billion exit. You know what I mean? And so I'm wondering if there is a point to this type of thinking where it becomes so ridiculous that it prevents you from even being able to, like, in your mind, even know what the first step looks like. Is there a point where it's like throwing out a random number, just being like, you know, I think I'm capable of $1 million? And then you go, no, my Mentor told me to think bigger. I'm going to make that 10 billion. And it's like, okay, but we got to start somewhere here.
- [19:21]
Gary John Bishop
Absolutely. But people, you know, that's when you get into the realms of fantasy. Right. It's the realms of fantasy. You should be interested in things that you don't think you could do. You should, but you're going to look at it in the context of what you've already done. I remember many years ago when I was running a workshop many years ago, maybe 15 years ago, and I had this guy come up and say, I'm going to do $2 million this year. And I'm like, oh, that's amazing. What did you do last year? And he was 27,000. I'm like, what's your basis for 2 million? Well, my basis is, you know, like I really feel as if. And it was all feelings based, right? Yeah. What. What was a little different for what I was talking about. My limitation was feelings based. But get beyond that limitation. Right. It's there. One of the things that I love to say to people and really like, not like a bumper sticker, which I hate that kind of bumper sticker wisdom. But I'm much more interested in what you think you can't do.
- [20:22]
Travis
Yeah.
- [20:23]
Gary John Bishop
And it's not about producing X, it's about who you have to become to even get yourself into that world. Right. It's about the way that you have to confront yourself. I think people do get wrapped up in what you're talking about, you know, 2x10x1000x. Like that's what the game is. That's not the game. It's about opening up perspective. It's about shifting context. It's about letting you see the immediacy of your concerns. Like, we live like there's, oh, I'll do it tomorrow and I'll do it on Thursday and then maybe I'll get to it. When, when you start to open up your context like that, when you start to kind of increase the scope of what you're doing, you might never hit that number. But I would assert you're now playing the right game though. Right. You're not. You're now playing at the right cadence. Right. You're engaging with whatever's in front of your face in a way that's outside of what. What. I mean, people call it the comfort zone, which I don't. I call it your certainty zone. I think people want to be certain. I think all the best results of your life. Not all of them, but a Lot of them came in critical moments of uncertainty of things that you don't think you can do. And I just think that stuff's way more interesting, you know, than, than, you know, throwing a $10 million tag at it. But, but I think you're right. I think, I think people do have this tendency to let their fantasies get in the way of what's actionable and doable and giving themselves the tiny work.
- [21:56]
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- [22:22]
Travis
Yeah. Cause they almost dream so much about this massive unreachable goal that they feel that they almost get the, they almost get the dopamine hits without actually experiencing the win because they just fantasize about this crazy future victory without ever taking a step toward it because they, because it's too big for them to know what even step one looks like. So they just dream about it. They get the dopamine of feeling like they had accomplished it, yet they're still in the same position that they were in when they started thinking about it, right?
- [22:52]
Gary John Bishop
And so that's, that's an attempt to kind of create a cushion between, between, between you and your reality. Like, you know, like, oh yeah, one of these days when I'm sitting there on the sofa wondering what I would do with the money that I went from winning the lottery, right? That it just disconnects you from your reality. I think you got to get grounded in your reality. I think you got to get like, how much longer am I willing to suffer this as my wife or am I actually willing to do what this takes? Not next week, right now. Am I going to get up off the seat right now or am I going to go and do the things that are lining up? It reminds me when I was writing, when I first started writing, I didn't want to write. I just didn't think it was for me. You know, here I am, but eight books later, but I just didn't think it was for me. And what I was really confronted at the time was that I didn't think I could do it right. And one of the things that I've never done, and I'm so glad I've never done it, I've never written a Book with the outcome in mind. So I've never written a book with the idea that lots of people are gonna buy it. So it's. It really. I mean, it's so cliched, but it really is about doing the thing rather than delivering on its results.
- [24:13]
Travis
Yeah, yeah, well. And I think that that speaks volumes for how many books you've been able to sell that you weren't writing what you thought people needed to hear from a total, addressable market perspective. You were writing what felt, what you felt you needed to get out into the world happened to resonate with a really large group of people. So now you've written, you know, unfuck yourself, stop doing that shit. Wise as. Grow up. Now you have a couple other books now you have the new book. Now what? Tell me a little bit more about that book before we, before we say goodbye.
- [24:45]
Gary John Bishop
I think the book is. The book is so, you know, I'll get people telling me all the time, you know, this book really helped me and this book made a difference, which is great, but, you know, I'm still stuck, struck by the number of people who do work on themselves, yet keep paddling in the same waters. And so that really was like, what this book was driving towards. It's about you. It's a massive wake up call, this book. It's an interruption to all the work that you think you've done, all of the ground you think you've taken. It reminds me of a statement that somebody made or gave me. It was like a gift. I felt as if I was gifted when they said it to me. And it's. And they said, yesterday's transformation is today's ego trip.
- [25:33]
Travis
That's such a good phrase. I'm gonna have to remember.
- [25:36]
Gary John Bishop
Oh, my God. And so that book's for that ego trip. This book is all about. And it was a very confronting book to write and transformational. It changed the way I live, you know, And I really don't feel as if I wrote that book. I feel as if I just. I was like. I don't know, I felt as if I was just kind of. The message just kind of came through when I got it on the paper. And that's it.
- [25:58]
Travis
Yesterday's transformation is today's ego trip. I love that I'm gonna start saying that all the time now, Gary. So Gary's new book, now what if you find yourself in this sort of cycle and you feel like you're maybe learning a lot, you are getting the dopamine hits, you're listening to podcasts you're reading books, but nothing in your life's material change, materially changing, then you owe it to yourself to go pick up a copy of Gary's new book. New now what? Gary, where else can people go to connect with you a little bit more online?
- [26:23]
Gary John Bishop
Yeah, obviously on the website, social media, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, believe it or not, still. Still in there. TikTok, you know, all the usual spots. You'll see me out there. I like to throw a lot of stuff out there to cause people to think and pause and confront the life. You know, it's like. It's my life's mission, man.
- [26:44]
Travis
At Gary, John Bishop over on Instagram and all the other socials and then his new book, now what in stores. Now go pick up a copy of that book. Gary, I appreciate you taking the time, man. I know you're a busy guy. I don't take that for granted at all. Everybody else tuning in, remember, money only solves your money problems. But it's usually easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there, here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace.