A (2:29)

Did you start working for McKinsey directly out of school?

B (2:33)

No. So I was never on the consulting side. Like sometimes people ask like, oh, did you know this person at McKinsey? And I say, well, no, I started as a lawyer, so probably wasn't always a good thing if people, if people knew me, I suppose. But I, I'd had, I'd had a career. I, I worked in actually B2B sales out of between college and then I went to law school. So I did cold called. I started my professional career cold calling CFOs. And so I really quickly thicken my skin. And then I went to law school and worked as a lawyer and an HR. And so as opposed to most people that started McKinsey right out of college or getting their MBA, I'd had kind of a whole career before that.

A (3:08)

So yeah, no kidding. Touched like four or five different spheres of business. What did you enjoy the most?

B (3:17)

I probably enjoyed the most which, which is what I do a lot now, which is working for organizations of around let's say like 500 people a size that people, you tend to know more people. It's a little bit easier to make decisions and things like that. But again, seeing across different functions. Like I was lawyer and HR often in those roles. I also took on some, some sales responsibilities. And so that type of environment, I feel like you can be really creative. And so what I like about that is what I do now. You know, I worked with organizations of all sizes, but, but plenty of them are around, you know, 500 or so employees that are looking for resources but just don't have it. And so that's why like now being a supplement to those organizations.

A (3:57)

How did you find sales while also being in a job like HR that seems like almost, almost conflicting a little bit.

B (4:04)

Well, it's funny you say that. So I had been, I lived in Australia, so my husband, two kids and I, we had the opportunity with his job to go to Australia and it professionally, it was probably the worst thing to happen for me. I just had moved into the leadership level at, at Yum Brands. I had to give a lot of things up because there just weren't opportunities for me there.

A (4:24)

You said at Yum.

B (4:25)

Yeah, Yum brands, which is KFC's parent company.

A (4:27)

That was David Novak.

B (4:28)

Yeah, so exactly. David Novak. Greg Creed. I grew up in Louisville. He's exceptional. He has. And he's, he's, he's a terrific, terrific leader. A lot of his principles that are still carried out and mean, you See a lot of the leaders there that have, you know, both within YAM and moved on to other organizations, just terrific. But I had rejoined a prior company, a media company. So I was doing this remotely out of Australia. I was a lawyer in hr, but a lot of what we did was, was magazines and in Australia magazines were still huge. And so I saw these opportunities and I was pretty close with the CEO and I said, you know, I do feel like there's opportunities here and I haven't brought out my sales muscles in a long time. But to the same point I was like, I think there's some prospects I could go after. And so in addition to being the general counsel and head of hr, I was scheduling for myself. You know, I was like a bdr. I was scheduling. I was reach out to like a six star casino resort. I didn't even know the word six stars. Yeah, and setting up and having the, and having these meetings. But to the point I said it's, you know, it's kind of weird if I were to reach out to someone and say general counsel and head of hr, it feels like a trap. And so I shifted and created this title of Global Global Business Development. I don't know, manager, let's say. And so to, to the point, I think a lot of the words do matter. And if a lawyer is going to reach out to you, you're probably not going to say no, Step into my office. Right.

A (5:48)

Doesn't really prompt an IM immediate response. When, when you have an attorney reaching out to you.

B (5:53)

Not a good one.

A (5:55)

Yeah, that's fair. And then when you, when you were at McKinsey. So tell me a little bit about working at a prestigious firm like this. Like how, how did you enjoy your. Obviously you ended up leaving and maybe like what do you think that was sort of like, I'm born to be an entrepreneur type of a thing. I can't stand the red tape type of a thing. Like what was just opportunity elsewhere. Tell me about the experience working there and then why you ended up leaving.

B (6:18)

So I joined McKinsey right after we came back from Australia. In working in Australia, despite the hours I actually had, I woke up really early to start working kind of funky hours. But I actually had pretty defined work life balance and I was able to work a full career, you know, multiple jobs, general counsel, other things, sales. But I was able to spend time with my kids. I had two kids. I'd go to the park, be in the harbor, had developed great group of friends. And so for me it really changed the way I thought about life and even work, like business in Australia, like my husband was working in an office there and it just is different. It just is so much, it's hard to put a finger on it. But people that have like worked in Australia, you'll see, it's just super collegial. I came back and I was in the US and had joined, joined McKinsey for their global people team. And it was, I mean, it was, I mean half the time I couldn't believe I was working there. I went to a small liberal arts college, Center College in Danville, Kentucky and all these things. But it was incredibly. It also you realize I worked at this prestigious firm but they had, you know, they still had all the same issues everybody else does of trying to figure out policies, how do we get work done. So it was humbling in like the actual sense of the word. And, but so for me I, so I was in the legal team and then after a year I had interviewed and gotten the role to become head of HR of North America and had stepped into the role, was leading the team and was talking to someone on the team and we were talking about what you would do if you didn't work there, which was for probably now I realize it's entrepreneurial. But for me it had been like, oh, I'd been chomping at the bit for years. And I said, you know, I bought this domain when we lived in Australia a couple years ago, called managermethod.com and always wanted to start something and help managers have difficult conversations seeing like, you know what's difficult. Even leading a one on one or onboarding is difficult. And this person on my team said, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you do that now? Well, you know, I just got to get this job. You don't feel qualified for salary, all the things. But I sat on it and I really realized I wanted to start it. And so I left to start my business and so really taking the lessons I'd had. And so at times like anybody that's started business will know there's times that you would give anything to go back and have guaranteed paycheck every two weeks and all the things that come with it. But for me, really that opportunity showed that the smartest people in the world oftentimes need practical training just like everybody else.

A (8:45)

Yeah, everybody's still trying to figure it out. Even, even at a place like that where you think everybody actually does have it figured out. It's like, yeah, I don't know, we're all just a bunch of, you know, mistake making people trying to like make our way in the world and I'm sure like being at a place like that was sort of a siloed experience where almost gives you the permission and confidence that you need to go tackle what you're going to do on your own. Because it's just like, oh well, even McKinsey still hasn't arrived so like probably some room for me to go do something that I want to do. But I'm fascinated by the fact that it's, it's easier to leave a job that you hate that doesn't pay you any money to go start your business. You know, like you're almost eager to get out of that situation. But for someone like you to be head of, head of HR North America for McKinsey, which is a prestigious company, to work at, a high job title there, I'm guessing a pretty solid compensation package for you to leave all of that behind to go start your own thing. There had to be this sort of like burning desire or what, what do you, what exactly, how exactly would you phrase that? Was it, was it something for the kids? Was it freedom and flexibility? Was it like I want to chase my dream? Like what exactly prompted you to leave a situation that thousands of people would kill for?

B (10:20)

In short, it was this idea of, you know, wow, this is, these conversations I'm having with people here. I could close my eyes and have the same conversation with people in all sorts of levels. And so I think one way I'd answer that is jumping ahead. We jumped back to my first dollar. So I'll jump ahead to the best moment I've ever had professionally wasn't, you know, yet you're getting this offer for this role. I mean that was, I, I was, I mean I couldn't believe it, truly couldn't believe it and had all the imposter syndrome and all the stuff that goes along with it. But I, A few years ago, just a few years ago I'd started posting videos on social media. Back in 2022, started posting tips on TikTok. And few years ago I was back in Louisville. I grew up, my parents house, my son had been sick so we'd end up spending the full day basically in the children's, children's er. Getting IV ended up was fine. But about six o' clock we're driving home and he's like, I'm super, I'm hungry. He hadn't eaten anything that day. Great. He said, can we go run through McDonald's okay, so we go through the drive through McDonald's right near my parents house where I used to, you know, walk with my friends every day as a kid. And so not every day, but probably plenty of days, but we go through the drive through and we stopped to pay and I was driving and the woman at the drive thru stared at me and she said, I know you. And I was like, oh, did we go to high school together? Because we're, you know, I was right near my parents house and then I was like, oh shit, she's like 10 years younger than me. And she's like, you're that HR lady from TikTok. She's like, I love your tips. I. She's like, I love watching them. I send them to my friends. She's like, I know you, I knew your voice. And for me, I mean we're like, you know, after a day of exhaustion, why that meant so much is I know so many people. You know, I work with organizations and do manager training and training for employees and tips and all these things, but I know so many people. That is where they're getting leadership development training. Like they're not going to get a budget, but people are, whether they're seeking it out or the algorithm is thankfully pushing me their way. But it's really important that I treat everybody, whether it is the person working the cash register at McDonald's or a senior partner McKinsey that's going through or getting training. I think everyone deserves the same type of knowledge on how to be successful in your career and what that means because I can tell you it doesn't just mean job title and salary. And so for me it means so much to have the opportunity to get to again be on podcasts like this and give tips that people are craving to figure out how am I successful, how do I make money and then how can I also live a life I want in the midst of it?

A (12:47)

Yeah, it's easy to vilify tools like TikTok because of the bad things that they do for society. But then, you know, every time you think about that, you think about stories like this where it's like, there's also a lot of upsides, you know, even not even just from your perspective as a creator, to be able to sort of like, even have the confidence to be like, hey, people are actually are finding this somehow. They're listening, they're watching, and they're finding it useful and helpful to the degree where somebody's actually recognizing me in a McDonald's drive through, which is Pretty cool. But also the impact that you get to have on the person who's listening, who maybe didn't have access to that type of education, maybe couldn't like, didn't go to college or didn't have the ability to learn from upper management McKinsey or whatever, you know, and it's like, then you can just film a video in your car and that person can learn what you've taken like a decade and hundred thousand dollars of, you know, student loan debt or whatever to be able to get is a pretty, I mean, objectively pretty cool thing. And then now you do a bunch of education stuff, right? You got the podcast, you got social media, things like that. How's the podcast been for you? How do you like doing that?

B (13:58)

It's been great. Because one thing is for those that have started a business, when you're starting it on your own, it can actually feel really lonely. And sometimes you think to yourself, gosh, I miss having coworkers, or I miss. And you're like, even that coworker. And I won't. Nobody has to name a name, but I could probably your mind of like, gosh, I didn't realize I'd missed them. But for me, it's been great to have the podcast because I, I do it with two other creators, met on social media. We actually met in person for the first time when we were recording eight or 10 episodes. Hopefully it worked. Yeah, that we met in person. They came to Atlanta. We live in different cities.

A (14:30)

That's cool.

B (14:30)

And it's, it's been awesome because we have different experience, different perspectives which, which can help but also agree on some things, which is work doesn't need to just be a source of stress and it, and it's really important to that it be profitable for you and in whatever ways that looks like, whether you're an employee, whether you're starting your own business, but also that it's really important to know that your, your life and you don't have to sacrifice your, your energy and your, your mindset just for the sake of making money. And it's really important that you think about that and know ways to do that for yourself, whether you're a manager, whether you're a coworker, any of those roles.

A (15:08)

So now you have a new book coming out, the Manager Method. What, what caused you to write this book and why now? Why is this important now?

B (15:18)

Some of it is the same way of this idea of, you know, again, I sometimes work with organizations, we have large packages and things like that, but I've been in the place and I'm constantly in the place. I mean, I go on social media, I listen to podcasts, I love learning perspectives of others, binging, binging them. And for this, sometimes it's nice to have I say, like tips right at your fingertips. And so I know, you know, I've put out. I can't even tell you how many videos I've put out. And I know there are people that will watch plenty of those, but sometimes you have to break it down. Like if I think about a book I've read or a podcast I've listened to, I can probably think of like five or six words that stick out to me. And so I created this three part framework which is pause, consider, act, which is something you can do in any situation. And I created it for managers to think about as a people leader, whether you have one direct report or the whole huge, massive team, multi layers. But in any situation is to pause and often consider, think about the other person, put yourself in their shoes, think about a loved one in their shoes. Sometimes I use my, you know, my late grandmother Gigi, who lived to be 96, and I think, how would I want her to be treated if she made a mistake or she was coming on board or she was quitting to go to another company and then acting accordingly. And it's in the book. I go through all sorts of examples of what that looks like and what I've heard from others. The book, both that have read either early previews of the book or I've talked about this in talks, is that it can help. Again, even if you're not a people manager, it can be a helpful framework to think about when you're doing your work, as you're starting your business and thinking about your customers or even in life, the relationships you have with other people. Because the pause is something that we just don't tend to do when we're just trying to get through the day.

A (16:58)

Yeah, yeah, you tend to react and that's usually not a great strategy. At least what I've found. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about the book writing process for you. How was that? I noticed you're being published by Hay House, which is a awesome publishing company. How did you land that deal? Did you get an agent? How did you find the process fun? Did you find it difficult? Maybe a combination of those things.

B (17:20)

The process is definitely a combination. I talked to someone recently who'd written two books and they said they're like, it was the hardest thing I've ever Done. And I said, was the second one easier? And they said no. And I said, well, I have two kids and I probably feel the same way if they're like, you just kind of forget the hard, you forget the hard parts over time. But it was different. So for, you know, despite having worked at, at McKinsey or have all of these things, I mean, I'm a person that has the same kind of doubts as anybody else. And so when I decided to write a book, I never, I didn't seek out an agent, I didn't seek out a publishing house. I started writing it. In Lee, my podcast co host, she had found this, you know, company that kind of you, you speak your book, it helps to edit it, put it, you know, put it together for you, but you're really, really writing your book. So it's, it's, you know, basically like self publishing it. And so I had, I'd gone through that process. Despite having a podcast, I found I am not one that can speak a book. I rewrote and rewrote and rewrote the whole thing. But as I was getting ready to publish it my own on my, my, my own, Cheryl Segura, who's a fantastic agent internally at Hay House, had reached out and we had a call and she ended up submitting it. And it's kind of funny because, you know, they'd reached out, but still, you have to go through the submission process. And it was so many, so many rounds of things, and I had to back into putting a proposal together when I already had the book, and going through things like, you know, now with publishing, it's a lot about social media. I mean, that was, that was having a social media presence helped tremendously in making that deal happen. But all of a sudden you're going through and you're thinking, oh, God, I was just gonna publish this myself now. If I don't get this deal now, I don't have my hopes up. And so I was with my, my son and his friend watching some NCAA March Madness games nearly a year ago when I found out that I got the deal. And I was, I was really excited. But it's, I mean, it is, it's, it's so much hard work. And I think it's really important because every step of the way is thinking about, okay, if I'm someone reading this book, what am I going to get at? What am I going to get out of it and keeping the focus there. And so it's a lot of work and I'm delighted to be done writing it, but, but I'm, I'm really proud of it and excited. And again, I use examples of all different industries because it's not just for a corporate environment, a remote environment. There's ones for healthcare, fast food, retail. So really trying to speak to all those, all those groups.

A (19:38)

And now the real work begins. Ashley, promoting the book for the next like two years of your life, which we are happy, happy that you chose our show as one of the shows to help promote this book. And I genuinely believe that something that everybody that's listening right now should pick up. If you have any desire to have your own business or if you already do have a business you're already leading people, pick up a copy of the Manager Method from somebody who is. I mean, whenever I'm looking at new skills or I'm looking at new knowledge set that I don't have access to currently, I'm always going like, who is the best person that I can learn this from? And somebody who was the former head of HR, like basically director of people North America at McKinsey to take all of the lessons and everything that she's learned from actually doing the thing, not just thinking about doing the thing, she's put into a book and she's to going selling it to you for like 20 bucks. Look like it doesn't make any sense. Just go buy the book. Stop hesitating. Just go buy the book. The Manager Method. You will not regret that at all. Ashley, I appreciate you taking the time to come on the show, share a little bit about some of the things that you learned in some of your journey with us. Where can people go to get more from you besides picking up a copy of the Manager Method?

B (20:55)

Well, thank you, Travis. They can come to managermethod.com and then you can look at pretty much any social media platform. Manager Method is my handle on LinkedIn. I'm Ashley Herd H E R D and I try to put out valuable tips pretty much every day.

A (21:12)

Perfect. Ashley, thanks so much for taking the time. I do not take your time lightly. I know you're a very busy person. Everybody else listening. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's a little bit easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got money in the bank. So let's solve that one first here on the Traps Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time. Peace out.