A (2:32)

That's awesome. Good for you. Let's talk, let's talk practicality strategy here before we go into some story.

B (2:38)

Let's do it.

A (2:40)

What is the best performing ads funnel that you have seen working as of now, today? Like, are we, are we done with, you know, book a call direct to a landing page, jump on a sales call? Are we done with, you know, webinars? Are we doing challenges? Is it a mini, like low ticket course that leads to a sale? Like, what's sort of the overarching, you know, strategy that you've been using that is really supercharged by the fact that you're a master of paid ads?

B (3:09)

Yeah, it's a great question. So I actually think the answer may surprise you. And the reason I say that is because I feel like so many people that are entrepreneurs, they're thinking about Facebook and Instagram ads. And that is absolutely a part of my strategy. What, what we do and what I see working the best is actually a mix of working on different strategies. So we teach Facebook, Instagram, Google, YouTube, TikTok, Pinterest, Spotify and beyond. And so what actually worked for us really well just now was we used a combination of Spotify ads, Google Ads, and Facebook and Instagram ads. So for so many of my entrepreneurs, what I find is the difference between Facebook and Instagram versus Google is on Google, someone's just raising their hand saying, I am looking for someone that does your thing. I just don't know that you exist. And so what I find working the absolute best is capturing intent and getting people who are already on Google looking for the best podcast for business owners looking for the best real estate agent, looking for the best boutique near them. Whatever the business is is being findable there. And then when they open their phone, the law of familiarity kicks in, which says we're more familiar with what we're more drawn or we are more drawn towards what we're more familiar with. And so being able to be like, man, I just saw Travis and now he's on Instagram, he's on my YouTube, he's on TikTok. Like, I can't stop seeing Travis. That is what's working the best is people not actually putting all their eggs in Facebook and Instagram's bucket. Because to your point, Travis, Book call is still doing great. Low ticket funnel is still doing great. It's just like being there on Google, I think people like aren't thinking about because the intent is so high.

A (4:42)

Yeah. So Omni Channel is really like be omnipresent.

B (4:46)

I just feel like everybody wants to copy and paste my strategy into your strategy. And I just feel like that is the opposite of what people need. Like being able to say, hey, what is actually the best for my business? Well, you might. If you have an incredible podcast like you do and you teach people all these things about podcasts, it might be that you actually are on Spotify. Like it might make sense that Spotify ads are there. Right. And then they go search for you and they're like, oh, who's Travis? And they find you on Google and they open up their phone and there you are again. Like that, that's the machine that I feel like is working so well, is just diversifying.

A (5:14)

Love that message. I had my. We do. We actually are doing three episodes a day right now on the show, which is a lot of content. We do a solo show, which is me, and then a co hosted show with my producer and we do an interview with people like you. And on my co hosted show the other day, my producer asked me what's a red flag that you see, like online marketing world or whatever, something that makes you go, immediately something's off here. Or at least, at least I should question what this person's telling me. And my answer was, anytime somebody tries to convince you that what they're selling is the only way to make your dreams come true, it's just like, bottom line, easy to prove, it's bullshit. It's not true. Now, I understand from a marketing perspective that that's sort of your goal to convince your prospect in their mind that what you are doing is the secret to allowing them to be successful. But it's okay to. So like my, my, my final thought was this. And I. And I would love to hear your thoughts on this. My final thought was basically like, it's okay to still buy those programs, but if you buy into the mindset that this is the only way that's going to be detrimental to you and to your company because odds are you're probably going to have to test 15 of those different ways, ultimately, until you find what works for you. Which, by the way, is exactly what the person who's preaching you the one way thing did to find the one way that finally worked for them. And it only became the one way to work for them because it worked for them. You know what I mean? But somebody else tried the thing that they're doing, it didn't work for them, so they tried something else and that worked for them. And then they're telling you that that's the only way to make it work. You know what I mean? So you have all these people online that are like, webinars are dead, email is dead, courses are dead. And they, and bottom line is all of it's bullshit. All of it still works. It's just a matter of what's going to work for you, what's going to work for your business.

B (6:57)

That's right. Okay, so that was really good. First of all, I completely agree. Second of all, I, I think that so many of us, we see something working for someone and so we're like, oh, if it's working for them, it can work for me. And I think that's the whole point is when I am working with people. So you asked earlier about challenges. That's one of the ways that we grow our business. And so my goal in the challenge and when I'm selling, and I think, honestly, anybody listening, this should be your goal, is get people to a place where they can truly see with proof and evidence and believe with certainty that the idea of what you're doing is the right thing. So what I mean by that is I sell people on the definition of advertising. And the definition of an advertising is widely known. It's like, how can you make the process of making known that's the actual decision? And so by the end of my event, like, I want them to be sold on advertising. And then by the end of it, if they're sold on advertising, they'll either know if they're sold on me or not. And so I, I, I, the way I frame it, and I think what more people could do, because you're talking about the red flag that gets people to run away. Well, what draws me in, whether it's, you know, and then this applies to, like, dating, this applies to relationship, this applies for business. Like, when there's a detached outcome, you actually feel like you're in control of making the decision. And like, that's what, that there's a way you can have passion for what you do while also having detachment and saying, listen, I want this for you, and I truly believe this could be so beneficial because I've seen it and I have proof and I'm going to be okay if. If you don't.

A (8:23)

Yeah.

B (8:23)

And so I feel like you're right. It's that. It's. It's the way that people are presenting. This is the only way. And what I want people to believe.

A (8:28)

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B (10:13)

Advertising is the way because how can your business grow? People don't know you exist. And so by that. So that's kind of like the way that I frame it. But you're 100%, right, Travis?

A (10:21)

Yeah, it's sort of the optionality where it's like I'm convincing you that this vehicle is something that you can't avoid, which.

B (10:26)

Correct.

A (10:27)

If you're a business owner, you would more or less agree that you cannot avoid the concept of advertising if you want to get more customers. The only potential, teeny tiny potential exception for this rule would be like super product focused, maybe tech forward. Companies who use like product market fit as their marketing engine. They have like deep referrals built into like the SaaS that they have that's selling it. And then they have, you know, they have that sort of multiplicity effect or that viral coefficient they're tracking, you know, with their software. But for the vast majority of companies, businesses that are listening, you have to get people to know who you are in order for them to buy your stuff. So it's like you, you have this sort of like advertising is essential message and then it's sort of like from that point, I care about you figuring this out. So look, I've put together something that I wish that I would have had a decade ago when I got started on all this. And you can get it or not get it. The point is you have learn how to do it. So either open up ChatGPT, search some YouTube videos or something like that, or if you really want to go deep and figure out everything that I've learned, you can also buy that this program is also available to help you do that.

B (11:37)

That's right. That's all it is. It's like, how can you compress time? Because we will all pay, even if it's organic, with time or money. It's like sometimes you're just with advertising speeding up, guaranteeing that the right people are finding you. So. Yes. Right.

A (11:49)

So let's go a little back in time now. Ashley, tell me, tell me first way you made a dollar in this space. Maybe online or like I really. The first time you made a dollar, that really excited you. Where you, it was like, wow, this is possible. That's crazy. Let's do more of it.

B (12:03)

Yeah, so, so I'll make, I'll make it short. Basically. I graduated from the University of Georgia, went straight to my first advertising job, graduated, worked. Okay. And so I started and it was like small business owners and they were like, they had these little budgets and I didn't, I was like, man, to me, it was like the whole world, I'm like, this is $1,000. This is crazy. And so I worked at that agency and then I went to the next one. Next one, Next one. Ended up working at four advertising agencies for a decade. And so I got to where it was small business owners to ultimately, when I left, these clients were spending at least six figures a day on ads. There was a lot of. A lot of money flowing through. I guess the first time I actually made a dollar was actually when I was still working at the advertising agency. I was teaching. So I would. I would leave work at 6pm in Atlanta, and I drive an hour to go like three miles because traffic's terrible. And I get there and I teach for two hours. And it was called General Assembly. I don't know if you've heard of General assembly before. Basically you can. Yeah, you look it up. Basically, people just, you. You teach what you know. And so I was teaching, and I'll never forget someone came up to me after class and they were like, hey, can I just pay you to teach me some more ad stuff? And I was like, I don't know. I've not done that. And she's like, I will literally pay you $250 for an hour of your time. And I was like, what? I was like, that is insane. Like, for me, I was making 250 a day, maybe with my salary, but I was like, 250 for an hour. And she was like, yes. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And so my life just changed that day. And so I ended up having a few more people that asked me and asked me and asked me. And then that's eventually, even though I was pregnant and had a fully paid maternity leave and a six figure salary, I quit my job to be like, we're risking it. My husband was like, you should maybe wait until after the maternity leave. I was like, no, I always have a reason to stay safe. I was like, I'm going for it. And we did. So, I mean, that was my first dollar. That probably woke me up. Oh, my gosh. Travis had just thought of something.

A (13:53)

Okay.

B (13:53)

That was the second. The very first time I think I made money. And it actually was crazy. Was actually in college, so I worked at Chick fil. A made $7 an hour. But I remember I was driving by the frat house one night or after work, and they would always do parking on college game day. And so these fraternity guys would have their little sign and be like, $80 for parking. It goes UGA Auburn. And I was driving back one day, and my landlord in the house next to me had an empty backyard. And I'm like, that yard can fit 60 cars. I called the landlord. I'm like, hey, can I rent a parking lot in the backyard next door? I mean, nobody's living there. You're losing money on rent. Like, we should just rent a parking lot. I was like, let's spit it. 70, 30. He was like, no, we'll do it. 50. 50. Well, I would dance in the road and, like, change my price to $5 less than the guys. And I'm like, in, like, the street dancing. We filled up that parking lot and I was like, I made more in a day charging $75 a car parking lot. And I think that was the first time where I was like, whoa. When you find the right opportunity to help somebody, like, money can just fly in. So I think that was probably my first one, whether I realized it or not.

A (14:53)

It's also a really great lesson for finding a starving market, you know, like, where.

B (14:57)

So true.

A (14:58)

You don't. You don't got to do. You know that. That business didn't require a ton of advertising. It just required you to stand outside and hold a sign because you're. You got a bunch of people circling, looking for parking. Literally right here. I can help you with that. You know, like, they're. They're quite literally a starving market because they just want to park and get out of their car and go to the game, you know, like, they don't have to think about it. Or like, it's such an obvious solution to a problem that people are experiencing. You know, it's like, are you going to open a hot dog in the middle of nowhere? You're going to do it outside of the bar at 3am when everybody's drunk and hungry and trying to prevent being as hungover as they were going to be tomorrow, you know? Yeah, exactly. One of them. One of them. You don't even have to worry about the quality of the hot dogs, you know, like one. Like, like the, the. The point is saying that, like, if you pick a starving market, the product, you can iterate on the product over time. It doesn't have to be amazing up front because people are so starving for some sort of a solution to their problem that they're just going to get whatever you have to offer to them.

B (15:53)

You know, it's such a good lesson. It's kind of like, I like to say, make it pretty later. It's like, I could have waited until I had the perfect, like, solid sign with the printed thing on it, but I was like, no, we went to Walmart. We got a Sharpie. We were like, 75. And it worked because there was a need for it. It's so good.

A (16:09)

So let's talk paid advertising a little bit more. That's obviously the, the space that you are heavily involved in, updates to algorithms. What's changed? What should people be focusing on now if they're running ads?

B (16:21)

Yeah, so a lot of people disagree with me on this one. And the reason that people disagree with me, and I truly believe this is why I think what we do and our method is so good, is because what we don't recommend is just letting meta figure it out. So Meta, Facebook and Instagram want you to be like, yeah, just one campaign, one ad set. Put a bunch of ads, let it find the way. And that is I have data. Well, I really believe data makes decisions and decisions make dollars. So I'm not just saying this because it sounds good. I'm saying this because I have data to prove that when we Let meta do 9 times out of 10, not 100% time, but 9 times out of 10 being more manual and who you're targeting, what the ad is and you know, are they prospecting, are they retargeting, are they new? Have they not heard of you segmenting out and having control performs exponentially better? And so the way, the way that I like to explain this, on why people can trust that this strategy is a little bit different and why I don't think you should just let AI and meta, you know, do its own thing, is because if you think about music, there were people that only know how to operate a record player, then there's people that knew how to operate a tape, tape player, then a CD player, then an MP3 player, then Alexa turn on the radio. So, like, there's all these slew of people. And so a lot of people in advertising, in my opinion, if this is like the 10 year, like time I've been doing it since the moment I graduated, actually more than 10 years now as far as total advertising. But if you take that 10 years and you compress it, a lot of people that teach ads are about right here. So it's not that they're not smart, it's not that they're not hardworking, it's that they didn't do ads when record player players were going. So they don't even know how to give you an advise on the strategy. Again, not because they're not smart, but because they're doing what meta is saying. And they never saw how the tape player or the record player, the other thing works. And so I'm not saying I'm ancient. What I am saying is a lot of people teaching ads have done it in the last five years. They figured something out for themselves. And there's truly something that only a gift that only time can give you. And it's doing it long enough for too many different types of clients, messing up enough that you actually know how you could do it another way than the way that everybody else is doing it. And so I'm so of the opinion let's not do what everybody else is doing just because they're doing it. I'm like, let's go the opposite way. And so that's kind of what we do is we really segment and control our audience targeting. And so what's not working, in my opinion, is people that are saying that consolidating it works. Just because you're getting sales doesn't mean you couldn't get more if it was a different structure.

A (18:37)

So a couple follow ups. One is, do you think that eventually the AI will get good enough to replace the lever pulling on the back end? Like, if you're sort of. If you're. Because the second question is also like, how good do you have to be at media buying in order to outperform what the AI algorithm is doing? And what delta of time does it take for you to get good at that? And is it worth your time to get good at that when in two years from now it might be good enough to replace it overall, if that makes sense.

B (19:12)

It's a great question. So let's talk about the delta of time question. So, Travis, do you like to golf or not really?

A (19:18)

I do.

B (19:19)

Okay, so let's use the example. How long do you think it would be for you to get really good at golf if you learned from Tiger woods versus if you learned from me?

A (19:29)

Yeah. Much, much shorter period of time.

B (19:31)

Correct. Just because he's mastered it.

A (19:33)

Because unless. Unless you're. Unless you're secretly amazing, which I don't know. Yeah.

B (19:38)

So I will say we do have a golf simulator in our basement. But I did beat some two guys that came over recently. But I think it was a little luck, but I didn't let them know that. So I just like, yeah, I'm just good. So anyway, we'll go with that. But what I'll say is I'm not the person you should learn golf from. Okay. Yeah. So I admit. So if you learn from Tiger, the reason you would learn more quickly is because he's mastered it and there's people that can tell you what to do. And there's people that can tell you why they did it that way.

A (20:03)

Yes.

B (20:04)

And so Tiger can tell you both. And so as far as, like, time goes, I have mastered paid advertising. So the reason I've built my programs the way I have is because I believe that if you truly obsess, because I believe your obsession, because it becomes your possession, is if you just obsess over ads for just a minute, that, and you do it the right way, that a year you can really, like, make some massive progress because you're saving all the shortcuts. If I wonder, people, I feel I say this all the time, but I'm like, people are in so much indecision mode rather than precision mode. And if you just focus in precision mode, you can grow. So time, I feel like it can take a year to master it. And then for your other question, like, about AI and will it go away? So it's funny you asked that. When I started in my first ad agency, one of the first things that happened was smart bidding came along. In Google Ads, there's manual bidding and smart bidding. And so I remember that they were like, man, smart bidding is going to take over the world. And I was like, there's no way I'll be doing this 10 years from now. And here we are. And the analogy I use for that is like, I have a 2026 Yukon Denali ultimate with like, really nice stitching. And that car is actually very similar to the version from seven years ago. It's still got wheels, it's still got an engine, it's still got a thing. The screen's a little bigger. Like, it's smarter, it's more intuitive, it feels nicer, but it still has some of the core elements of the old school way. And so I actually think that AI, I use AI, I have my own AI in my program, so I use AI. I just, I've yet to see that AI is smart enough to know the intent and the different decisions. Like, the AI doesn't know why you need like that. You just let go one of your teammates. So you need this other thing to be sold because there's capacity there. Like, it can't know some of the human things. It's like, this is overstocked or this person left. Like, it doesn't know some of the things of why you need certain things. So I believe the AI will continue to be useful in ads. I think that here's my theory. This is my, like, conspiracy ads theory is people ask me, well, what if it did shift A year from now. And AI just said, no. Meta was like, no, you can only target broad. I said, well, it's all about money when it comes down to it. So if that's the case, and it's always about money, if 90% of Meta's company revenue is from advertising, if 9 out of 10 of my clients see that the manual targeting actually performs better, I think what would happen is people would just pull their money. They'd be like, this isn't working. I'm going to chat GPT ads, I'm going to Google Ads, I'm going to YouTube ads, I'm going to TikTok ads. I'm going to any other ad. And I think what would happen is Meta would be like, wow, we have our own data and tracking and performance to see that the roas of these accounts or the cost per lead of these accounts has actually gone up in aggregate. And I think they'd retract it and add manual back because they can't let ads underperform.

A (22:38)

So in your opinion, do you think that it's a few a futile effort to run ads in house without having like some sort of at least competent level of expertise in that area?

B (22:54)

That's the hill I'll die on. Okay. I will. I just, I feel like you, it's like when I told my husband, because I was too confident, I was a little bit too confident. Okay. I was like, I can cut your hair. Like, I'm smart. Like, just let me, let me do it. Like, it's not that hard. And I was humbled and I was like, wow, an expert has to do this. And I'm not allowed with six within six feet of him with a buzzer because I was overly confident. I think, I think that people are getting results. And so like Tony Robbins says, it's like, just enough is dangerous. I'm like, I think people are getting just enough results that they're like, no, I've got this. And they just don't know that that 3 to 1 could be a 5 to 1 or a 10 to 1, whatever it is.

A (23:30)

I see. Okay. And then media buying expertise or ad creative. Yeah, which one is more important? If you were, if you were telling somebody, like there's again, we're imagining somebody starting from scratch. They've never ran an ad before. They don't know any. They don't know anything about it. Are you more like, hey, invest more heavily into thinking through your ad creative or invest more heavily into figuring out how to fine tune a media buying.

B (23:56)

Campaign that's a really good question. And it's hard because they're both so important because you could have the best ad setup, but if your ad and message is terrible and unclear, then it won't perform.

A (24:07)

Yeah.

B (24:08)

And then vice versa. You could have like your audience not perfectly honed in, but if your, if your message is so strong, it can really stand out. So one of the things I love doing like I have, I've made a framework around messaging because I feel like it's so important. So. Gosh, that's such a good question, Travis. Or how do you have such good questions? I think I would, I would lean towards getting your messaging clear and having something you feel confident putting out there and then making sure that you've got the right setup. I think I prioritize that first.

A (24:38)

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like mostly just because if you have an amazing offer then you can like, it will make up for some of your lack of knowledge in the other areas, you know. And if like your offers dialed in, the messaging from ads all the way through to booked call, all that messaging lines up, your sales call, messaging lines up with the initial ad that they came in from, like the, the structure of the entire sort of like acquisition funnel ends up being a little bit more important in terms of how successful the campaign is ultimately going to be. And then, and then from a creative standpoint, from the ad creatives standpoint, I think, I think, I think this is true across multiple disciplines. Not just ads, but especially in ads, we tend to undervalue the volume game. Meaning where like somebody will be like, man, I worked, you know, I worked all weekend so I could launch these three awesome ad creatives this week. And like, you know, it's been two weeks and they're not performing. And then, and then I go talk to a friend of mine who's running a multi nine figure company and mostly an ads driven multi nine figure company. And it's like, oh, we test 3,000 ad creatives every week, you know, and it like breaks my brain. So if you're, if you're sort of getting started in space, what can be, what's like a competent level of volume that you feel like, look, if you're not, if you're not actively pushing like X number of creatives on a monthly basis, then you're just going to be behind and it's going to be difficult to find a winner.

B (26:09)

It's a great question. So we have an eight figure business and people that have zero, like just got started, two people that have a multiple eight Figure business that we work with and even the clients that have these Fortune 500 companies that are spending all this money at the end of the day, what I'd so much rather you focus on is getting quality over quantity. And people are like no, you need a hundred creatives. And Alex Moses is like test this many. I'm like, I get it, I get it. And if you can have five to eight really good different prospecting ads, I treat it differently. So I think you should have five to eight different ads that are for brand new people that have never heard of you. And I think you should have five to eight ads that you make for only people that have heard of you. At least just start there, all of us can do that. Because when you tell someone that's never done ads, go make 100 creatives, they're going to pass out, they're going to use AI and they definitely won't stand out.

A (27:02)

Yeah, right.

B (27:03)

So I'm like, if you can just make five to eight. And the way I like to act like to do it is like what we do is I say what are the reasons? Or I always ask people, I'm like, why should someone trust you? Like truly, like put that at the beginning. One of my clients has an eight figure business and her, her best performing ad, the first sentence is I have an eight figure business. And, and it's like they're already listening because they established, established trust and credibility so soon. So in those five day ads for everybody listening, start with identifiability. This is just who it is and what the problem is. Insert credibility as soon as humanly possible. Why should they listen to you? How many years have you been doing this? How many people have you helped? What accolades, what awards, whatever it is, accessibility or sorry, opportunity, what do you have for them? What is it that you have to offer? Accessibility. How can they get it? And then the last thing I like to do is like personality or memorability. Like I have a tagline, so I use that tagline every time. And like you have something that makes you you. So that's where you can have your, you know, work with ChatGPT, make a really good tagline, have something that allows you to stand out. And so the summary was identifiability, credibility, opportunity, accessibility and the memorability or personality. You put that in there and you make five to add five to eight different ads for people that have heard of you, have had it and you'll be in a beautiful place to start.

A (28:18)

And is that 5 to 8 per week? 5 to 8 per month?

B (28:21)

That's a great question. Just starting out with five to eight. Travis, the ads that so the ads that have led us to where we are. Some of them I have been running for a year. Yeah, like I think I have influence. I have some clients that are the top 10 in all Amazon Influencers, influencers and creators specifically have to change their creative much more often. But for a service based business I would say retail and influencers, they just have to refresh creative more period. No matter what service based, you get a few that are like fire. I don't care if it's saying learn, learning limited or creative fatigue, just ignore that. Because some of my best performing ads say like swap it out and I'm like no, it's getting a 10 to 1. I ain't touching it. So just be okay knowing that some of them are going to stay and some and then you can always like. My recommendation for those people that love the logistics is let's start with 5 to 8 and then let's rotate 2 to 3 every month by pausing the weakest performer and just adding in two to three different ones. That's so much more manageable.

A (29:17)

Yeah, yeah. Ashley, love the conversation. Thank you so much for the work that you do in the world and for taking the time to come on the show. I genuinely appreciate that. Where can people go to get more from you?

B (29:25)

Probably my Instagram account. So ads with Ashley. My party trick is you type in ads and I should pop up. But we have our challenge that we do every every month.

A (29:34)

Sweet. Ads with Ashley over on Instagram. Go check out some of the stuff that Ashley's putting out over there. And if you're tuning in, remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's a little bit easier to solve the rest of your problems when you have money in the bank. So let's solve that one first here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace.

B (29:51)

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