INTERVIEW | Make Money by Mastering Your Mind with Shirzad Chamine

Summary

Travis Makes Money – Episode Summary

INTERVIEW | Make Money by Mastering Your Mind with Shirzad Chamine
Host: Travis Chappell
Guest: Shirzad Chamine (Author of Positive Intelligence, CEO, Stanford lecturer)
Date: June 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this powerful conversation, Travis Chappell sits down with Shirzad Chamine—Stanford lecturer, CEO, and best-selling author of Positive Intelligence—to explore the vital role that self-mastery and mindset play in building wealth, running a business, and ultimately living a fulfilled life. The episode dives deep into self-sabotage, inner resilience ("Jedi mind training"), practical exercises for rewiring your brain, and the importance of shifting from self-doubt to empowerment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shirzad’s Entrepreneurial Origin Story

• First Big Win & Loss:
  • Shirzad shares how his first major entrepreneurial venture took off after Hewlett Packard paid upfront for a prototype that didn’t yet exist ([02:09] – [03:43]).
  • Success turned into challenge: intense pressure and self-sabotaging leadership style led to a "palace coup," and being ousted from his own company by his team ([03:43]).
• Notable quote:
  • “On that day, I got demoted in the company I had funded and founded… That became one of the key genesis moments of the work I do today.” – Shirzad ([03:43])
• Transformation out of Pain:
  • Shirzad describes this as a turning point that led him to confront the “war going on between my inner Darth Vaders and inner Jedi” ([04:06]).
  • It ultimately inspired his positive intelligence research.
  • He eventually became friends again with those who ousted him, feeling genuine gratitude for the experience ([05:21]).
  • Quote: “That most painful day of my professional life ended up becoming the most important positive day of my professional life.” – Shirzad ([04:26])

2. The Psychology of Coaches and the "Pleaser Saboteur"

• After serving as CEO of the largest coaching organization in the world, Shirzad observed:
  • Many coaches are naturally empathic but often undermine themselves by over-giving, under-earning, and self-criticism ([07:01]).
  • Quote: “Every one of our strengths, taken too far, becomes our greatest weakness.” – Shirzad ([07:01])

3. Understanding Self-Sabotage: The 10 Saboteurs

• Human Universality:
  • Everyone self-sabotages, every day, in specific, recognizable ways ([12:44]).
  • Research isolates 10 main "saboteurs"—Judge, Pleaser, Controller, Stickler, Victim, Restless, Avoider, etc. ([11:15]).
• Negative Emotions as Alerts:
  • Shirzad likens negative emotions (stress, shame, guilt, anger) to the pain response: useful as an alert, but harmful if prolonged ([11:15]).
  • Quote: “Negative emotions… are helpful—just like pain is helpful—but for how long? Just a second. If you stay in them, it’s like keeping your hand on a hot stove: you’re sabotaging yourself.” ([11:15])

4. Jedi Mind Training: Building Inner Strength

• Inner Jedi vs. Darth Vader:
  • Star Wars is a metaphor: we all have an “inner Jedi” (sage) and “inner Darth Vaders” (saboteurs) in conflict ([13:58]).
  • Goal is not to eliminate the saboteurs, but to shift their influence from a “megaphone to a whisper” ([12:44]).
  • Quote: “The question is not if you do it, but how you do it… It’s the story of our lives.” – Shirzad ([12:44])
• Practical "PQ Rep" Exercise:
  • 10-second exercise: gently rub two fingertips together with intense focus, feeling the ridges ([14:06]).
  • This quickly quiets the saboteur part of the brain and energizes the “sage” region ([14:06] – [16:54]).
  • Quote: “If you had your head under an fMRI machine, you’d see you ever so slightly quieted the region of your brain where all these saboteurs live, and ever so slightly energized the part of your brain where your inner Jedi lives.” ([14:06])

5. Micro-Meditations and Daily Mental Training

• These 10-second practices are like "micro-meditations" but are simpler, easier to adopt, and pragmatic ([16:54] – [16:59]).
• Self-Command:
  • Most people generate 10,000–60,000 thoughts per day, many negative (“absolute messenger… many of them have negative energy to them”) ([16:59]).
  • Learning self-command is crucial: “You’re taking charge of your mind and energizing the positive part. That’s the Jedi.” ([16:59] – [18:21])

6. Managing Inputs and Building a Positive Foundation

• Morning Routine:
  • Starting your day by consuming negative news or social media primes you for negativity ([19:29], [19:40]).
  • Instead, begin with these PQ exercises during morning routines (brushing teeth, making tea, etc.) to “charge up” the positive brain—a battery for the day ([19:40] – [21:16]).
  • Even before important meetings or stressful situations, Shirzad uses these exercises to "charge up the Inner Jedi" ([21:25]).
  • Quote: “Neuroscientists have shown your mind acts a little bit like a battery… if you charge it up, it actually takes a while for that charge to drain.” ([21:25])

7. Imposter Syndrome and Self-Doubt

• Shirzad candidly shares that even after his book’s success, he still experiences inner voices of doubt and fraudulence ([22:41]).
• Imposter syndrome is a classic manifestation of the “Judge” saboteur ([22:41]).
• Quote: “My sage absolutely believed [the book] is possible. And then my saboteur… said, ‘Shirzad, you idiot, nothing you say is of any worth, you’re just a fraud, and any day you’re going to be exposed for the fraud that you are.’” ([22:41])

8. Excitement about AI and the Future

• Shirzad is passionate about the potential for AI to create abundance and solve massive human problems ([23:38]).
• Caution:
  • Technology can empower us or “burn down the house”—so it’s critical humans operate from their “inner Jedi” in wielding new innovations ([23:38]).
  • Quote: “I feel a real urgency to help more and more people access their inner Jedi rather than inner Darth Vaders as they come across this incredible technology.” ([23:38])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Painful Blessings:
  • “That most painful day of my professional life ended up becoming the most important positive day of my professional life.” – Shirzad ([04:26])
• Strengths as Weaknesses:
  • “Every one of our strengths, taken too far, becomes our greatest weakness.” – Shirzad ([07:01])
• Universal Self-Sabotage:
  • “Every single day you sabotage your wellbeing, performance, and relationships… The question is not if you do it, but how you do it.” – Shirzad ([12:44])
• Jedi Mind Training:
  • “The reason we love Star Wars is because Star Wars is happening inside of our head… It’s the story of our lives.” – Shirzad ([13:58])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:09] Shirzad’s first entrepreneurial success and its collapse
• [03:43] The "palace coup" and genesis of positive intelligence research
• [07:01] Coaches, the “Pleaser Saboteur,” and earning issues
• [11:15] The 10 saboteurs and recognizing self-sabotage
• [12:44] Everyone self-sabotages; intensities differ
• [13:58] Inner Jedi vs. Darth Vader – daily mental battle
• [14:06] Shugested 10-second PQ exercise
• [16:54] Micro-meditation, self-command, and controlling thought patterns
• [19:40] Managing morning inputs and priming positivity
• [21:25] Charging the brain: neuroscience and practical rituals
• [22:41] Book success and battling imposter syndrome
• [23:38] AI as opportunity and risk

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Resources & Where to Find More

• Free 5-Minute Saboteur Assessment:
  • positiveintelligence.com/assessment ([24:46] – [25:20])
  • Get a personal report on your self-sabotage patterns; share with friends and family.

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in recognizing, understanding, and overcoming the mental barriers that keep us from financial and personal success. Shirzad Chamine offers refreshing honesty about his own struggles, research-backed frameworks, and practical, bite-sized exercises anyone can implement immediately. Whether you're a coach, entrepreneur, or just someone seeking to "make more money" and master your own mind, these insights are eye-opening, actionable, and inspiring.

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Transcript

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[Travis (Podcast Host)]

You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis what is going on everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's mission to help you make more money. On this episode of the show, I have a new friend, Shirzad Shamin Shirzad is a New York Times best selling author of Positive Intelligence which has been translated into over 20 languages. He has been CEO of the largest coach training training organization in the world, has trained more than 100,000 coaches and trained faculty at Stanford and Yale business schools. Shirzad lectures on positive intelligence at Stanford University. His saboteur assessment has been used by more than 2 million people and a majority of Fortune of Fortune 100 companies. A preeminent C suite advisor himself, Shirzad has coached hundreds of CEOs and their executive teams. He holds a BA in Psychology and Ms. In Electrical Engineering and and an MBA from Stanford. So I think he might know a thing or two about this space, about this world. It's been trusted by some of the most intelligent and best business minds on the planet. So I'm thrilled and blessed to have him spending some time with us here on the show today. Shirazan, how's it going?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Well, so glad to be here.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Great to have you. I would love to jump back in time first and foremost and talk a little bit about where all this came from. Tell me, tell me the first time that you ever made a dollar that you were shocked by, like you were like just elated that somebody was willing to pay you money for this thing that you did.

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Well, my biggest success and failure as an entrepreneur actually came a few years out of business school. I was, I kind of was a visionary thinker, came up with a prototype for software Pat Hewlett Packard chose to prepay for and then we got some of the famous luminaries in Silicon Valley to become my board members. Investors got the company off the ground. So I was so incredibly proud. Yes, HP agreed to pay a ton of money for a product that didn't exist. So, yeah, I was very proud of that. And that got the company off the ground. And fast forward a couple of years later, I'm writing this great success story. Two years out, I'm running a company and the product is late. HP and others are unhappy. I'm under a lot of stress. And we were in downtown Palo Alto. So I go get my lunch and come back to our offices, go upstairs where our offices were, and my heart sinks because in my boardroom, we're seated the chairman of the board, my president, and all the VPs. It was a palace coup because basically what had happened is under stress, I had gone from this incredible visionary leader who everybody wanted to work for and invest in, to such a micromanaging, controlling, negative leader that nobody wanted to work for me. So they went to the board and saying, it's either him or us.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Wow.

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

On that day, I got demoted in the company I had funded and found it. And so you can imagine the pain that I was experiencing. And that came at one of the key genesis time moments of the work that I do today, which is about what's happening inside your head as a leader and are you sabotaging yourself or are you coming from your best part?

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

What ended up happening to that company?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

We ended up merging with another company. This was dot com. And so with the dot com, we. We went up and we came down. So we rode that wave.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

So what you're telling me, Shirzad, is that sometimes you might fail? Is that what I'm hearing?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

No kidding. And actually, that most painful day of my professional life ended up becoming the most important positive day of my professional life because it led to all of the work that I do today as I tried to figure out what just happened here. That gave rise to a lot of my research on trying to figure myself out, which then helped me with others, basically realizing inside my head there's a war going on between my inner Darth Vaders and inner Jedi. And so Stanford kits, where I've lectured on this, call this book Jedi Mind Training. So I basically discovered there are different forces inside my head and I better access my inner Jedi if I want to be really successful in business. And that's. I got into a lot of the work that I did.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

How long did it take you to be grateful for that day?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Oh, about a year. Because I hated the guts of everybody involved on that palace coup. I thought they betrayed Me, I mean, some of them are my friends from business school. And it took me about a year to realize actually they were fighting for my vision. I was destroyed my own vision and that. And right now they are great friends. I absolutely have let every single one of them know. I'm so grateful. And it ended up transforming me and transforming my life. And that's why I'm sitting here right now. Yeah.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

So can you straighten out the timeline here for me a bit? Shirzad. So this was directly out of business school. Did you go back to school after this first venture or did you go immediately into another startup? What exactly was sort of the timeline here?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Yeah, now this wasn't directly out of business school. Several years out of business school was my first entrepreneurial venture. And then after that, after that company, I ended up doing some, some kind of consulting work for a while and then ended up being CEO of, of Coactive Training Institute, which. And it became the largest coach training organization in the world. And I ran that company for seven years and then I ended up writing my book, Positive Intelligence and founding my current company. I see.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Okay, take me back to your time working with coaches as a group of people, as a segment of people. What are, what were a couple of the common problems or common threads that kept coming up that you felt like you had to work with people on the most?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

With coaches in particular, what I find is that typically coaches are wired to be givers and to be very empathic and giving. And so as they are focused on that, every one of our strengths taken too far becomes our greatest weakness. So the strength of being a very empathic, giving person, taking too far becomes the, what I call a pleaser saboteur. And so we are taking care of everybody else. You're not taking care of yourself. You're not asking for enough money. When you're asking for business, you constantly find, you know, focused on what's not right with you. You criticize yourself way too much. So what I found is some of our most extraordinary coaches were not making a lot of money. And to me, that was outrageous that so much talent was sitting there and it was not, you know, getting the money that it deserved. And a lot of it came to some, again, some of these voices inside of our own head that sad sabotage us from asking what for? What we deserve. What we deserve.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

How do you know when you're engaging in self sabotage?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

We actually make it really, really simple. We did factor analysis research with more than half a million people and we asked the question, how do we sabotage or optimize our well being and our wellbeing and performance. And as a result, what we discovered is there are. It seems like there are a hundred ways we screw ourselves up, but actually there are only 10 ways. And we call those the 10 Sabbath

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[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

And they gave them names like Judge the Pleaser, the Controller Stickler, the Victim, the restless, and the Avoider. And so the way we know that they're activated is when we experience negative emotions. Now, negative emotions like stress, anger, shame, guilt, disappointment, guilt, self doubt, all of these things are really, really, really helpful. Just like pain is helpful, but pain is really helpful for a second. When you touch a hot oven, you don't feel pain. You're gonna keep your hand on the oven and burn bung. So it's really, really, really helpful to feel painful. But for how long? For just a second to get an alert and take action. Same thing with negative emotions. All, all these negative emotions are incredibly helpful to give you an alert for something that needs your attention. But if you stay in negative emotions, it's like keeping your hand on the hot stove. You're sabotaging yourself. So the way you're in self sabotage mode is by looking at the fact that you have stayed in negative emotions. Stress, anger, shame, guilt. Finding all these things for more than a second beyond its use for alert. And then the, and the voice in your head that's making that happen is your judge voice, your controller voice, your avoider voice, your pleaser voice, the 10, the 10 ways we self sabotage.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

So is it. Would, would you say then that it is more common than not for somebody to be self sabotaging? Because it sound, it sounds like it would be really easy to do?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I start a lot of my keynotes by saying, I want to look you in the eye and say, every single day you're sabotaging your wellbeing, performance and relationships. Let me repeat that. Every single day you sabotage your wellbeing, performance and relationships. How do I know that? Because everybody on the planet does it. I do it, my wife does it, my kids do it. The question is not if you do it, but how you do it. Meaning which of these avatars are your way of doing it? Also, how intensely do you do it? I've gone from very intense self sabotage like I described it destroyed my leadership. Very intense self sabotage. Two same exact voices in my head still try to run me, but I don't let them. So the voices have gone from a loud megaphone to just a whisper. And so that's my inner Darth Vaders on the other side, the positive voice, which inner Jedi. That used to be a whisper and now it's much louder and more powerful. So it's about changing the balance of power between these voices inside your head. But we all have them. The reason we love Star wars is because Star wars is happening inside of our head. There, there's the inner Jedi, inner dark Vaders. There's a tension all the time. It's the story of our lives. Yeah.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Can you tell me more about the inner Jedi? When did that, where did that come about? Why did you name it that and how can we apply that? Listen to that voice more.

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Yeah, the Jedi. This being Jedi mind training is what Stanford kids coined it. I wasn't calling it that. So they were into Star wars and they said, you know, Shirza, what you're teaching us here is like Jedi Jedi mind training. And we called it saboteur versus sage. The sage being the positive voice in you. And what we found is that the sage lives in a different part of your brain and it generates all the from where the saboteurs live and it generates all of your positive emotions ranging from just love for yourself and others, compassion, empathy, curiosity, joyful creativity, and you know, Jedi level, fearless, calm, clear headed, laser focused, confident in action. So all of those positive emotions are generated by a different part of your brain. So at any given moment we ask ourselves which part of your brain is activated right now? And when you find that it's the saboteur part part of your brain, we give you these 10 second exercises that quiet the saboteur brain and energize your, your sage quiet. The inner Dart Vaders energized the Jedi. And if you want, I can, I can show, show you and your audience how to do that, please? Yeah, yeah. So it's a 10 second exercise that quiets the dark side and energizes the light side. And the most popular, all of these people, we have thousands of people, thousands of people around the world are practicing this now. So the most popular is the following version. So take two fingertips and gently rub two fingertips against each other with such attention that you can feel the fingertip ridges on both fingers. So you gently rub two fingertips against each other with such attention that you can feel the fingertip ridges on both fingers. So that was a little bit more than 10 seconds. And so what we teach people is these 10 second exercises. This was one of them. And if you had your head under FMRI machine, you would have seen that you ever so slightly quieted the region of your brain where all these saboteurs live and ever so slightly energized part of your brain where your energetic lives. Now, with just one, one of these, it's not going to change your life. But what if you did a lot of them and what if you did them and you needed them in the middle of having a fight, in the middle of really making the wrong decision about how to respond to a challenge, in the middle of being on a, on a call with an important client and them really objecting to what you're saying and saying no to you. And how do you recover fast in the moment. So when you need it, we help you quiet the part of your brain that's reactive and energized, part of your brain that has all these great powers.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

I see, so it's almost like a micro meditation of sorts.

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Exactly. So people who do meditation, mindfulness, they ask us, so what's the difference? And what we tell them is, you know, this is the root building block of which meditation, mindfulness is a special form. We don't use meditation mindfulness terminology. Why? Because most people don't know what mindfulness is. You know, what the hell is it? We are very pragmatic about this. For us, what's happening is 10 seconds at a time. You are exercising self command. So basically you are commanding your mind what to do. You are taking charge of your mind and energizing the positive part. What most people don't know is in the course of a day, their brain is actually generating somewhere between 10,000 to 60,000 thoughts. 10,000 60,000 thoughts. It's an absolute messenger. And many of those thoughts are just random, red, ridiculous, and many of them have negative energy to them. We are drained by the End of the day they don't even know what happened to us because we're just generating all these crazy thoughts and it's just a habit of the mind. And so we learned self command. We say, hey, I'm going to command my mind when I need it to shift to what's going to help me and how I'm going to take charge. That's the Jedi taking charge against the dark way their own nation.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

How much or if any energy do you put into things like the inputs that you have? I have to imagine if the vast majority of the thoughts you're generating are, you know, have a negativity bias. There's a fair percentage of that that comes from outside influences, right? Like marketing messages or political headlines or

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[Travis (Podcast Host)]

News channels, being on 24, 7 wherever you go, how much, how much of it can you control from just like trying to regain some form of control over the inputs that you have?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Yeah, the I mean what we teach people, we have a six week app guided program to help people rewire their brain and begin to establish positive habits. And one of the most important positive habits is when you wake up in the morning is that if the first thing you do is go to your social media feed, if you go to your newsfeed, go to our voicemail email, chances are extremely high that you start your day with some shitty stuff that's gonna create this spiraling of your saboteurs being upset, being stressed. And that spiraling starts, and once it starts in your brain, it has a contagion effect. So one negative thought leads to another, to another, to another. Before you know it, you have lost control over the day. So what we show you instead is before you allow any of that to happen, you energize the positive part of your brain by doing these 10 second PQ exercise by these 10 second exercises as you do different routines in the morning. So brushing your teeth, washing your hand, having that first cup of tea, all these routines you have in the morning, we have you do them with a 10 second of full attention so that you keep energizing and energizing and energizing the positive part of your brain as you're doing the routines in the morning. So now with all the positive part of your brain energized, so then when you read that email, when you have that bad news or whatever, there's the much more powerful part of you that says, you know what, I can, I know what to do with this. I'm not going to start firing, I'm actually going to be in charge of how to respond to this. We want to start on, on, on the positive spiral, not the negative.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Yeah, it sort of like builds a moat of positivity around you to where at least it's going to take a little bit of work for that negativity to break through.

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Yeah, actually neuroscientists have show once you, that your, your mind acts a little bit like a battery, that if you charge it up, the, the positive part of your brain, it actually takes a while for that charge to drain. So if you charge this up in the morning first thing, then even a few hours later, if you're in the middle of a very tough, challenging conversation with somebody, you have much more access to the positive powers of your brain. Positive, creative, confident, all of the powers you have deeper access to it. That battery's still kind of charged up. And so I do that not just in the morning, but before the most important meetings. If I'm about to go on a keynote stage in front of thousands of people, if I don't have privacy, I even go to a bathroom stall and just make sure I do these exercises. So I'm charged up when I go on stage before a really important client meeting. All of this stuff you just want to charge up the Inner Jedi.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Obviously when you write a book, you have good intentions for what's going to happen with that book. But did you have any idea that you were going to end up on the New York Times bestseller list with the book translated in 20 languages? Did you have any idea the far reaching impact that book would have?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

I am of two voices, right? My sage absolutely believed that it is possible. And then my saboteur in particular, my judge saboteur, said Shirza, what are you talking about, you idiot? Nothing you say is of any worse unimportant you're just a, you're just a fraud. And any day you're going to be exposed for the fraud that you are. This imposter syndrome that we are so familiar with, that's the voice of the judge saying, you are completely unworthy of any of our success. And any day you're going to be exposed for the fraud that you are. So the saboteurs actually generate imposter syndrome and a bunch of others. I got them all. I have had them all. So. So I'm very aware of their impact.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Shirazada, I appreciate you and the work that you're doing in the world. How you show up for coming on this podcast. What, what, what is it that you're really excited about right now in the world? What is it that's, that's got your, it's got your Jedi mind banging on all cylinders?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

I am incredibly excited about AI and I believe AI like any technology, you know, the fire can help you cook your meal or it can burn down your house. So I like any technology AI can be. In particular, I think AI is going to be profound in its implications for the world we live in in terms of potentially helping us create absolute abundance, democratization of access to energy and food and shelter and education and medicine. All of these incredible things help us heal all disease. I'm incredibly excited about AI and at the same time I think that if the world is in its saboteur mode as it uses this, this technology, it can, it can turn bad. So I feel a real urgency to help more and more people enter access their inner Jedi rather than inner Darth Vaders as they come across this incredible technology so that it affects the trajectory of the planet during the.

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

Sure, Z. Thank you so much for taking the time, man. I'm genuinely appreciative of that. I know that you're a really busy guy. Where can people go to get more from you and what you're working on?

[Shirzad Chamine (Guest, Author and CEO)]

Yeah, the fun thing to do is actually these saboteurs I'm talking about. The easiest thing is to go do a five minute online saboteur assessment. It's totally free and in five minutes you get a bar chart that shows you how you self sabotage amongst those patterns that I just mentioned and then how to overcome it. And the way you do that is go to positiveintelligence.com assessment positiveintelligence assessment and do the saboteur assessment and share it with your loved ones. It'll be a fun dinner conversation. I bet you you're gonna find out a lot about each other based on

[Travis (Podcast Host)]

your saboteur report positiveintelligence.com assessment. They have put a lot of work into this to make sure that it's actually delivering accurate results and then giving you a system, a plan to work afterwards, something to actually do about it as well. So share. Thanks so much for taking the time. Everybody else listening. Remember money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. We'll catch you guys next time. Peace.

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