← Travis Makes Money
Travis Makes Money
INTERVIEW | Make Money by Playing the Long Game with Reputation, Luck & Leverage, feat. Guy Kawasaki
00:27:46
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- [00:06]
Chef Meilin
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- [00:49]
Travis
n You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by GoHighLevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis.
- [01:03]
Hey, what's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's our mission to help you make more money today on the show. I have an old friend of mine who we have reconnected with recently. He's back on the show for the second time. His name is Guy Kawasaki. Guy is the chief evangelist of Canva and host of the Remarkable People podcast. Author of 19 books including Everybody Has Something to Hide, the new one that we're here to talk about today, Think remarkable and wiser Guy. He's an adjunct professor of UC Santa Cruz and trustee of the University of Hawaii Foundation. He was the chief evangelist of Apple, trustee of the Wikimedia foundation, and brand ambassador of Mercedes Benz. Kawasaki has a BA from Stanford, MBA from UCLA, and honorary doctorate from Dabson College. Guy, what's up? Welcome back to the show.
- [01:46]
Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, it's been too long.
- [01:48]
Travis
It's been a little while. It's been a little while, but I'm glad we're able to reconnect and in the light of another book, another, I mean, 19 books, is that right? That's, that's crazy. What, what brought this new. This new book idea about everybody has something to hide. Tell me about that.
- [02:02]
Guy Kawasaki
What do you people are, you know, if, if you have, if you have a pulse and you have room temperature iq, you know that we're in a very, very, shall I say, interesting time right now. And I have come to the conclusion that as your privacy degrades, so does society and democracy. And I read an a Wired article about how signal is so much better for secure text messaging. I tried Signal. I love Signal, and I am now an unofficial, unpaid, unacknowledged evangelist for Signals. So I decided that, yeah, there's. There's no, there's no book about how to use Signal. And, you know, let's just say to optimize your privacy, it's not just a matter of installing it and going, you need to do a few things. So I thought I would take it upon myself to write a book about Signal so that everybody could be as private and secure as possible.
- [02:59]
Travis
Wow. I mean, I'm. I bet Signal probably appreciates that, huh?
- [03:03]
Guy Kawasaki
Well, I don't know. I mean, you would think so, but, I mean. Yeah, I guess they do. I. I interviewed the president of Signal at South by Southwest, and she is just a remarkable person. So, yeah, I have a pretty good relationship with them, but it's not. It's. You know, people always look for an ulterior motive that, you know, you're getting paid by Signal or your own stock in Signal, and none of that is true. I think it's going to cost me about 20 grand to make this book. So I figured that I. I don't anticipate making money on this book. This is my 18th or 19th book, and let's just say Canva has been very good to me, so I don't need to make money publicly.
- [03:46]
Travis
Yeah, I was, I was going to say, if anybody. If anybody's thinking that, then they don't know what, what you've done and where, where you come from. But you've obviously had a extensive career in Silicon Valley with some of the biggest companies to ever exist, including Apple. I would love to there a little bit because I find that people find this part of the story really fascinating. The Think different campaign, you were. You were actually one of the people in the room for that, Is that correct?
- [04:13]
Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, I. I was. And being in the room that day probably cost me $250 million. So this is, you know, there's. There's Travis makes money and there's Guy Loses Money, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [04:29]
Travis
So tell me, tell me that story, because I think it's a great story.
- [04:32]
Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, so I'm in the room with Steve Jobs and all the marketing people, and the ad agency comes and shows the Think different campaign. And, you know, we loved it back then. Apple's in trouble. And to use a Macintosh back then, you really did have to think different, because if you were thinking the same, you were using a Windows machine, so you had to be a rebel. And they showed us this ad campaign with you know, Gandhi and, you know, Richard Branson and all these revolutionaries and pioneers. We loved it. Absolutely caught the spirit of Macintosh. And at the end of the. The. At the end of the showing of the ads, the guy from the ad agency, Jay Shayat, says, you know, Steve, I have two copies of all these videos. I'll give one to you and one to Guy. And Steve, as only Steve would do, he said, don't give one to Guy. And now this is in front of everybody, right? So I said, steve, you know, what's the matter? Don't you trust me? And in the most costly retort in the history of Silicon Valley, he said, yes, Guy, I don't trust you. And I said, that's okay, Steve, because I don't trust you either. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know If I got $250 million.
- [05:53]
Travis
This episode of the show is brought to you by Mars Men. So look, guys, I don't know if everybody listening knows this, but a couple years ago, I was diagnosed with cancer. And around that time, I also noticed that my testosterone levels were dropping like crazy. And I know that some of it was due to the fact that my body was sort of in disarray. But then I also learned through this experience that most men start losing testosterone levels around the age of 30. And then it starts just getting worse and worse after that, about 1% every year after that. So what I learned during this is that basically your body makes testosterone, but a lot of it gets locked up and can't be used. So there's this protein called SHBG that basically handcuffs your testosterone. So even if your body's making testosterone shg, SHBG locks it up so you can't access it. It's like having money in the bank, but your debit card doesn't work. So Mars Men is designed to help free locked testosterone so your body can actually use it. No synthetics, no needles, just real ingredients that help optimize energy, focus, and strength. And since I started taking stuff like this, I noticed increased physical performance, especially recovery in the gym, which as I am getting older, I'm starting to realize is a real thing. I. I have to, like, stretch a lot more. I have to, like, take breaks more. I have to have rest days and things like that. And. And Marsman has helped me to be able to recover a little bit faster. Plus more consistent natural energy. It's different than having a cup of coffee or an energy drink or something. It's a steadier sense of drive throughout the entire day. It Supports healthy T levels, energy and stamina with eight natural clinically dosed ingredients made in the USA and third party. Plus it's got a 30 day money back guarantee so there is absolutely no risk to you. Worst case, you don't absolutely love it and you get your money back. But over 91% of users report higher energy levels. Thousands and thousands of guys are feeling incredible results from this. So just check out the reviews on the website to see for yourself. For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off. That's 5, 0 50% off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts@men GoToMars.com that's mentioned GoToMars.com for 50% off and three free gifts when you check out after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. Just please support our show and tell them that we sent you. That's mengotomars.com high interest debt can be
- [08:11]
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- [08:38]
Guy Kawasaki
Equal housing lender with a Stories by telling this story. But that's my only rationalization. So.
- [08:47]
Travis
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:48]
Guy Kawasaki
You know, you know, you know, Trevor, sometimes you look back and you say, God damn it. You know, I really chickened out. I should have told him what I really thought. Well, I wasn't going to go through that. So.
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Travis
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
- [08:59]
Advertiser Voice
Live, live.
- [09:00]
Travis
Regret free. You know what I mean guys, did
- [09:04]
Guy Kawasaki
you say regret free or debt free?
- [09:06]
Travis
Yeah. Okay, so you, you were in the room for these types of like, I mean this is a historic marketing campaign for, for anybody that remembers because it's weird now to look back on those times because Apple is Apple. But at that point this was, this was, correct me if I'm wrong, was this after Steve Jobs came back and was trying to revitalize the company.
- [09:34]
Guy Kawasaki
He was not yet in the company for the second time, but he had sold next to Apple and he was, you know, he was already hanging around and know Steve has a. Let's just Say that Steve has a reality distortion field, that it transcends organizational org charts. Okay, so, so he was, he was already wielding his incredible influence at this point.
- [10:03]
Travis
Yeah, yeah. And so you, you are in, in these rooms now where Apple is in a bad place, which like I said, is strange to think about now because you go like, how was Apple ever in a bad space? But they were on like facing going out of business at this point. And this is sort of one of those campaigns that turned it around and enabled Apple to basically start becoming the brand that it is now today, which is ubiquitous, it's everywhere and it's one of the most valuable companies in the world.
- [10:31]
Guy Kawasaki
It was this ad campaign and it was the imacs. The first imac, if you're old enough to remember they were sort of teardrop shaped and they were in colors like blueberry and cherry and tangerine and you know, completely different. You know, if you looked at a Dell or HP back then, you say this is a big ugly box next to another big ugly box. But this one was more like a, you know, like a, like a teardrop really. And it, that and this ad campaign and Steve, you know, definitely saved Apple and made Apple come back. And I also left right after that. So if you look at, if you look at my career and how Apple does, every time I quit, Apple does. Well,
- [11:17]
Travis
isn't that interesting?
- [11:18]
Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, yeah. Correlation is not necessarily causation, but. Yeah, that's right.
- [11:25]
Travis
And so the, the, the imac, basically what the whole concept was at that time was like, how do we take, how do we take this technology that consumers sort of fear and make it more consumer friendly, like putting it into these different, these different, you know, colors and unique shape and things like that. Where it became like the general public that aren't people that are deep into technology and know how to code a computer program for people that were like, oh, I could buy that.
- [11:55]
Guy Kawasaki
I could use that, man, you, you have a future in marketing drive.
- [12:02]
Travis
I appreciate that. And then, and then when you, when you left Apple, that next time guy in your mind were, was, was your career like moving on to the next level? Were you looking at it like, ah, I just missed out on an opportunity like what was going through your brain at the time?
- [12:20]
Guy Kawasaki
Well, hindsight is perfect, but I left to start a Macintosh software company. And you know, I mean, I mean, you know, I, I think so I could add some value to your listeners here, not just make them laugh about the stupidity of leaving Apple twice. I think the lesson there is that, you know, you you always hear in Silicon Valley that you gotta break things, you gotta pivot. You know that I'm telling you, you can make an argument that sometimes instead of looking for greener grass, you fertilize and water the grass you're standing on. Because, you know, like, people often quit. You know, like the stock is down, everything is down, and they quit and they go to the next thing and you're always trying to catch up, and sometimes it's better to just stay where you are and make the grass greener under your feet.
- [13:19]
Travis
Yeah, yeah, the grass is. The grass is only green where you water it. The, the, the Canva opportunity that came around. Did this start kind of similarly to how you were, you know, working with Signal? Like, were you just, this is an awesome company, this is great? And then they got in contact with you or tell me that story?
- [13:39]
Guy Kawasaki
You know, we're gonna. I think one of the things that people will conclude after this podcast is that freaking guy, he's more lucky than smart. Which I'm, I'm, I'm ok. I'd rather be lucky than smart. Anyway, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is, I don't know, 12, 13 years ago. And, you know, Twitter was just started. This is before Twitter became Nazi platform. And so we had this theory that on Twitter, every tweet should have a picture or a video with it. So myself and my social media associate, her name was Peggy Fitzpatrick, she was making pictures for every tweet that I tweeted. And so one day, you know, Cliff Olbrich and the founders of Canva in Western Australia, they noticed I was using Canva to make the pictures, and so they reached out to me with an ention that shows how old I am. I know what an ad mention is. And anyway, just, you know, thank you, God. I happen to notice that ad mention. Thank you, God. I happened to respond. I went to Peggy and I said, you know, these people from Canva reached out to me. Isn't that the product you're using goes, yeah. I said, do you like it? She said, yeah. I said, you think I should help them? And she said, yeah. And that was the due diligence. That was everything. And, you know, a few weeks later, they were, they were at my house in California and bada bing, bada bang, you know, here we are 13 years later. Yeah.
- [15:10]
Travis
How do you decide? Because you have, you have a barrage of inbound opportunities constantly being thrown at you. Based on the resume that you have, how do you decide what things are worth spending time on? Associating Your name with, you know, it could, it could have easily. My point is like, it could have easily gone the other way. You know what I mean? It could have easily been a bad one.
- [15:30]
Guy Kawasaki
Ended up being great. Absolutely.
- [15:31]
Travis
How do you, how do you make those decisions?
- [15:33]
Guy Kawasaki
Well, so the Canva episode proves that, you know, if you go to somebody who's really, really doing the work and understands the tools, that is a very good path for due diligence. So Peggy Fitzpatrick really knew that Canva was good. This is not based on some bullshit PowerPoint presentation that says, you know, we have patent pending, curve jumping, paradigm shifting, new graphics software. This was an actual user. And so it kind of proved that it, you know, had value. So that's path number one. The, the way I got started at Apple was basically nepotism. My college roommate hired me. You know, I am living proof that, you know, nepotism can work. And actually I'm also living proof that if you do one thing right in your career, you can coast for about 40 years. But that's a different discussion, you know, because, because of my success with Macintosh, the people at Canva knew of me. They didn't know me. It's not like I went to university with them. Right. Knew of me. So the reputation from Apple and visibility from Apple enabled Canva to know of me. So they reached out to me and now I think I get as much credibility for being, you know, the Canva evangelist as much as the Macintosh evangelist. So, sure, yeah.
- [17:00]
Travis
I mean, like I said, ended up being a pretty good bet because Canva has exploded even more, obviously.
- [17:06]
Guy Kawasaki
I mean, you know, Travis, I, when I try to sum up my career, I tell people, yeah, you know, I work for these two stars startups. Maybe you heard of them. One is Apple and one is Canva. Yeah. And you know, nobody exactly says to me, nah, I haven't heard of them. Like, you know, what do you, how come you didn't work for bank of America or you didn't work for, you know, JP Morgan or something? And, and I, but I will tell you, this is another lesson for your listeners. So I started with Apple, I ended with Canva. But between you and me and your, I don't know, hundred thousand listeners or whatever between those two endpoints at the beginning and the end of my career, I struck out a lot of times. I hit a few singles, I hit a few doubles. But to say that, you know, it's Guy's golden touch and everything that I touch turns to gold is total. It's Guy's golden touch. Is whatever is gold guy touches. Which is a very different philosophy.
- [18:09]
Travis
Yeah. And one that's probably guaranteed to give better outcomes given enough time to bat, you know.
- [18:15]
Guy Kawasaki
Well, I mean, if you want to guarantee good outcomes, I tell you how we do it in Silicon Valley. So we throw a lot of shit up.
- [18:23]
Advertiser Voice
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- [18:51]
Travis
Lifelock, how can I help?
- [18:53]
Advertiser Voice
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- [18:56]
One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.
- [18:59]
What do I do?
- [19:00]
Guy Kawasaki
My refund though.
- [19:01]
Travis
I'm freaking out.
- [19:02]
Don't worry, I can fix this.
- [19:03]
Advertiser Voice
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- [19:08]
I'm so relieved.
- [19:10]
Travis
No problem. I'll be with you every step of the way.
- [19:12]
Advertiser Voice
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- [19:22]
Guy Kawasaki
One out of 100 sticks. We go up to the wall, we paint the bullseye around what stock and we declare victory. And we say, travis, I hit the bullseye. Travis, you can always hit the bullseye if you paint the target after you see where the arrow is stuck. Key.
- [19:42]
Travis
Yeah, yeah, no kidding. With your, with your schedule these days, guy, what do you find that you enjoy the most out of all the things that you do? You're writing, you're podcasting, you're doing some speaking and interview people. What, what do you really like? What, what fires you up?
- [19:57]
Guy Kawasaki
Oh, being on your podcast, that's like, you know, this is it for 2026.
- [20:03]
Travis
Done, done and done. Yeah. Now we can rest the rest of the year.
- [20:06]
Guy Kawasaki
Yeah. Yeah. This is like, you know, I feel like Alyssa Lou right now. So I, I, you know, as, as I look back on my checkered past, I would say that I think I'm doing the best work of my career on my podcast. I really, yeah, podcast is really, really. I was born and made for podcasting, so I think podcasting is the best work I've ever done. It's also the. Probably the least appreciated, which is a. But, you know, life goes on.
- [20:36]
Travis
So that is, that is you're preaching to the choir. You're preaching to the choir. On the. On the Remarkable People podcast, what are some of the conversations that you found to be most fascinating? A couple of the people who you just really enjoyed spending time with.
- [20:55]
Guy Kawasaki
Oh, I mean, you know, it's hard to top speaking with Jane Goodall. Right. I mean, she is the most remarkable person I've ever met. So I had her on twice. And Neil Degrasse Tyson, Margaret Atwood. I mean, you know, Tony Fauci. I don't know where you are in the political spectrum, but Tony Fauci was a great guest. Francis Collins, the guy who did the Human Genome Project. Christy Amaguchi. I mean, I'm all over the map. It's. It's not like I only have 10 people. I have remarkable people in any field.
- [21:30]
Travis
Well, that's my favorite part about podcasting. I think it's probably the most underrated part about podcasting, is that everybody thinks about it from the terms. In terms of audience size and how many subscribers do you have and what. Listen, it's like. Doesn't really matter in terms of, like, the. The question of will I continue to do this is not at all predicated upon the volume of people who subscribe to the podcast, if that makes sense. It's. It's completely predicated upon conversations like this one, you know?
- [21:56]
Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:58]
Travis
The fact that you can.
- [21:59]
Guy Kawasaki
And, you know, I. Well, you. You don't have to worry about this yet, Travis, but I am 71 and 52 times a year, I gotta figure out another subject, right? So one day it's, you know, spinal. The next day it's vaccines. The next day it's creativity with Julia Cameron. The next day it's, you know, apes with Jane Goodall. So 52 times a year, I got to learn something new. I think I am delaying dementia.
- [22:30]
Travis
There's. I mean, there's real. There's real data behind that. You know, don't want to let the brain atrophy, you know.
- [22:36]
Guy Kawasaki
Yeah, I said delaying. I'm not saying preventing.
- [22:41]
Travis
You mentioned. You mentioned before we hit the record button, that the last.
- [22:44]
Last.
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That about four or five years ago, you lost your hearing. You have cochlear. Cochlear implants in right now. And then made a joke about how that you lost your hearing from all the bad pitches that you've heard from founders in Silicon Valley over the last couple of decades.
- [22:58]
Guy Kawasaki
The word I used is shitty. But, yeah, you want to say bad.
- [23:02]
Travis
Excuse me? Yeah, shitty. Shitty pitches. Yeah. And then that actually became one of the things that you're kind of really well known for online, which I actually used this exact thing to raise money for my first startup, which is your. Your 10 slide pitch deck. Where did that was idea directly born from just having to sit through another like 34 slide presentation? God.
- [23:22]
Guy Kawasaki
You know, for a while there, I was a venture capitalist and investor and holy. I had to listen through a lot of crap and, you know, but I. Travis, I got to tell you the funny story. So I came up with this 10, 20, 30 idea. I wrote the Art of the Start, which till this day is kind of the entrepreneur's manual for starting a tech company. And I can't tell you how many times Travis, people came to me to make a pitch and they said, I love your book, guy. I read the Art of the Start, I believe in everything you say. And then they boot up PowerPoint and it's like freaking 60 slides, 10 point font, and they need two hours. I said, like, did you not just tell me you read my book? Did you not just tell me that you observe everything? I said, how the hell are you showing up with 60 slides? Slides I just wrote down you should show up with 10 slides.
- [24:18]
Travis
Yeah.
- [24:18]
Guy Kawasaki
So needless to say, I don't invest in people who cannot read.
- [24:26]
Travis
During our last conversation, we. The one that we did previously was live in person at your. At your house and filmed the whole thing on video, obviously. One of the things that you said in there that I really liked and that I have used and credited to you since then is you said you're either building stuff or you're selling stuff. Everything else is bullshit.
- [24:44]
Guy Kawasaki
Can you tell me about that? Well, I mean, you know, after a few decades, it's kind of pattern recognition, right? And then you just see that, wow, if you look at every startup, somebody has to be the engineer and somebody has to be the seller. And so was. And Jobs, right. So, you know, was without Jobs would have sold 50 Apple One motherboards. Jobs without Washington, he wouldn't have anything to sell. So fundamentally, if you get those two things right, then the legal, the hr, the accounting, the operations, you know, all of that, you know, you can get great hired guns, don't get me wrong. But if you don't have anything to sell and you don't have anybody buying, none of the other things matter. So that's the most important two things. You could also make the case, in the case of tech startups, the third person, the ideal may be, be an adult. So the adult tells the guy who can make it, and the Guy or gal who's selling it, you know, listen, you're making a mistake. Let me be the adult supervision in this. Yeah. So you know, three, three legs make us.
- [25:58]
Travis
Yeah, that might be the third one. Yeah, yeah. Classic three legged stool situation. Yeah. It was funny because I had this, we had this clip that, that we put out from the podcast that, that went viral online and it was, it was talking about salespeople, people and because my background is door to door sales and you know, talk to a lot of salespeople and stuff like that. And there was this one guy who
- [26:14]
Guy Kawasaki
commented on door to door sales.
- [26:17]
Travis
Door to door sales? Yes, sir. Yeah. So I was, I was likening it to, you know, overcoming rejection and things like that. And I was like. And basically. What's that?
- [26:25]
Guy Kawasaki
Tell me you did. Tell me you did a tour of duty at Cutco.
- [26:29]
Travis
Cutco was one of the ones I did not touch. No. Yeah, Cutco was not one of the ones. Yeah, Cutco and Kirby both successfully eluded me. But yeah, solar alarms, water purification, roofing, everything else. Yeah, I sold all that stuff. But I was saying like, hey, you knock a thousand doors, eventually you're going to find somebody who actually wants the thing that you're selling. You just have to be able to withstand the rejection of the previous 999 doors. And somebody commented on it was. And said something like, or you just, or you just irritated the 999 people for no reason or something like that. And I, and I click into his profile, find that he's, he's a, he's like a sports broadcaster. Right. He, he talks about sports on some news channel or something like that. And I commented back and just said something like something about, something about how regardless of what you do, you are in direct benefit of somebody who's picking up the phone and selling somebody something so that you can have your job like as a sports broadcaster. There's in one room across from you, there's a bunch of people sitting on phones calling advertisers to get sponsors so that you can afford to get paid to talk about sports for a living. So maybe like change your attitude towards what sales is, my man. Yeah,
- [27:39]
Guy Kawasaki
you know, let's see what happens when that guy gets laid off. Right. And you know. Right, you know, exactly.
- [27:46]
Travis
Well, Guy, I appreciate your time, man. It's always a pleasure talking to you. It's fascinating, fascinating stories and, and doing so much good in the world. And I appreciate you for continuing to put out so much good into the world when you don't have to there's no reason why you have to keep podcasting or keep writing or keep helping other companies and bounders, but you still do it. And I appreciate you for being I
- [28:05]
Guy Kawasaki
would not say there's no reason. I feel like I've been very fortunate and I have a moral obligation to leave this earth better than I found it. Can I make an offer for all your listeners please? So I have this book called Everybody has Something to Hide. Why and how do you signal to preserve your privacy, security and well being and I want to give you a copy so all you have to do is send an email to the title. Everybody has Something something too high gmail.com you send me an email and I will gift you a copy of the book via Kindle because it ain't about royalty and money anymore. I just want people to preserve their privacy.
- [28:53]
Travis
Everybody has something to hide@gmail.com. shoot an email over to their over that email, they'll send you the copy of the book for free. This is free information, guys, from people who have spent an entire career building up a bank of knowledge. And you get to get it into this little format, which is awesome, which is just a just a commentary on books in general, but especially when it's written by somebody like Guy I. You owe it to yourself to go pick up a copy. So everybody has something to hide@gmail.com. send an email over there. Guy, I appreciate you for taking the time. I know your time very valuable, so I don't take that for granted. Everybody else listening. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's a little bit easier to solve the rest of your problems with money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Next podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time.
- [29:34]
Guy Kawasaki
Right, bye.
- [29:37]
Advertiser Voice
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