← Travis Makes Money
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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense. There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18 plus.
- [00:26]
B
You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet. Just go to gohighlevel.com travis what is going on everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's a mission to help you make more money. On this episode of the show. I have a new friend, Kira Shishkin. He's the CEO of Informed now, the number one news by SMS service in America. He's a four time serial entrepreneur and investor in the technology industry. He's also a Ukrainian Israeli immigrant to the US with global experience spanning investment banking, corporate strategy, venture capital and private equity. His education includes the University of Chicago, Chicago Booth School of Business and Stanford. He's also in Forbes 30 under 30. Kira, what's up man? Welcome to the show.
- [01:14]
C
Hey Travis, glad to be here. Let's make some money.
- [01:17]
B
Let's do it, man. So you, we had this sort of accidental mishap earlier this week which rarely happens, but it does happen from time to time. And that's by nature of doing, you know, 365 interviews a year. Some of them are inevitably going to get, get a little screwy. And so we jumped on and talked for a minute or two just like, hey, let's just move this to Friday when it works best for both of us. And so now we're talking. But while we were on, you're like, hey, why don't you go get signed up for the service Informed now? And that way when we meet up on Friday, we you have a few days under your belt and you can talk about it. So I did, let me tell you dude, of all of the products and services I've signed up for over the years or created accounts for over the years, very, very, very simple signup process. No wasted copy on a landing page, no crazy VSLs. And not like it was just, you're here, enter here, good to go. That's it. Wake up tomorrow morning and I get a text message with like the five things that happened the day before that. I need to know with an unbiased angle so I can at least stay informed, but without getting sucked into a political vortex. So I apprec service that you've built and I'm curious how you got into this. So. So let's take a step back before we talk about informed a little. A little bit more. Tell me the first time you ever made a dollar that that excited or surprised you in some way.
- [02:41]
C
Totally. Wow, this is really exciting. I mean, so many, so many things to kind of touch on to. And thank you for that feedback on the form. That means a lot coming from you. And I'm excited to dive deep into it as well. First time I made money, I was already in Israel. So I was born and raised in Ukraine, then kind of came of age in Israel and I had this idea, I had this feeling in high school really, that it was really difficult to learn American history. Like American history is taught in these themes, right? But you don't really know, like, when themes start, when they end. It's not very taught. It's not really taught chronologically. And so I set out on a little venture and it's like the first business that wind up kind of outgrowing the high school experience, but really began kind of, you know, in high school, at the end of it to write a. An American textbook. A textbook on American history that actually.
- [03:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, bro. Man, that's why I love talking to entrepreneurs, man. I have asked that question to probably. Well, I mean, pretty easy to say probably, like north of 300 people at this point. I can, I can confidently say I've never gotten the answer that you're giving me. Like, usually it's like I mowed lawns or like I delivered newspapers or I was a busboy or something like that. And then you come in and hot with this. Oh yeah, I wrote a hit.
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C
I was born in Ukraine, raised in
- [04:08]
B
Israel, and decided to write an American history textbook in. In high school is crazy, dude.
- [04:14]
C
That's. That's where it all began. It was like the first ever venture and I called it American Chronology. And we had like a really sexy like textbook cover. And it was a very, you know, very thin kind of textbook component of sorts that allowed you to learn American history in a chronological way. And when you look at all the other textbooks, which, all of which I read as part of the diligence and the research for this, we were all talking about these themes. The great expansion, you know, the great antebellum, the post bellum, the War, the before war, the other war. And you're like, what time is it? Like, where are we in. In the chronology of American history? Were these.
- [04:52]
B
Were these Israeli textbooks or like, was this American textbooks? Like, where were you coming from?
- [04:59]
C
Or American high school students and Israel. But I was in an American international school in Israel.
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B
Got it. Okay.
- [05:06]
C
Kind of in between these worlds where I was in Israel, you know, in that culture, very much there. But there was other window into the American world, thanks to the high school that I went to. And so it's kind of in between these two places. And that was maybe, maybe the very beginning of thinking about what would it look like moving to America? What would it look like coming to America and seeing what the American dream looks like today and potentially living it out, which, like now I'm doing in at full speed. But that was the very beginning of it way back in high school.
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B
What did you learn studying American history that in depth at that age?
- [05:45]
C
Well, I think, frankly, most problem, I mean, that was like a really big takeaway that's continued with me through all my ventures is most problems are like information organization problems. Information is there. There have been so many texts about American history, you know, written and sold and distributed. There is no shortage of information. But the way it's organized really matters. And, you know, some people resonate with some level or in for organization, some with others. But when I look across the world, most information that I see, I find to be suboptimally organized. And so now with inform, now, you know, flash forward quite a while. We are still, you know, we're not creating new content. We're not sort of, you know, reinventing wheel. We are organizing existing information in a way that makes it much more worthwhile to consume. And so in some ways, the first business and now the fourth business, a lot in common and are maybe even the same thing. But the big takeaway and the big theme is organizing information is a very worthwhile experience. And doing that. Right. Makes consumption of that information worthwhile for all the people.
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B
How many languages do you speak?
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C
I speak Russian, Ukrainian, Hebrew and a little bit of English. A little.
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B
Yeah, just a little tiny bit.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I'm having trouble understanding you, bro. So, yeah,
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C
doing my best.
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B
When did you come over to the States?
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C
It was about a decade ago.
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B
Okay, got it. So you were in Israel then, building your first couple companies?
- [07:20]
C
Yeah. So, you know, spent my childhood in Ukraine. My like young adulthood in Israel and my adulthood in the States. It's been New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Louisiana. And then it Kind of like all over.
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B
Take some pretty good spots.
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C
What.
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B
What's your favorite US City you've lived in?
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C
It's between San Francisco and New York. And they're very much apples and oranges. And I love that analogy because they're the Big Apple and, like, the Orange, I don't know, Orange county, but it's. It's so different. And I either. Both compete for the first place.
- [07:51]
B
Yeah. Okay, so. So the textbook business. So what was your plan? Are you selling to schools? Like, did you intend on building it into a business? Was this sort of like a personal pet project? What ended up happening with that?
- [08:05]
C
Yeah, so I think in the first edition, right. It was just about saving my school. Right. How can we make American history more accessible to my school? But then as we got pulled from other international schools, Right. There's a whole circuit of international schools around the world, some which are American, some which are British. Mostly we'd be looking at the American ones. And they exist really in any big city worldwide, certainly in Europe. And as we got the pool from other schools, then we went and republished. At this point, I'm already, like, leaving high school. I'm already becoming a college student. And we republishing a much more, like, mature international version of the product where it has an ISBN number, it is internationally, like, commercially sellable. And then we started selling to, like, history departments. And so the scale increases, the impact increases, and it gets really exciting because now I'm getting all these photos from teachers of all these students, you know, holding the textbook and, like, this is helpful. And I think that was when I first discovered, like, the high of solving someone's problem in a way that's delightful. In a way, I feels good for them. And, like, it's an orgasmic. It's an ecstatic feeling for the founder, for the entrepreneur, to see someone who had a pain point or a problem and watch that get solved through something that you've created.
- [09:22]
B
Yeah, yeah, no kidding. So what. What ended up happening with that? You. You sell it? Did you wind it down?
- [09:28]
C
What.
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B
What happened?
- [09:31]
C
It's been a successful first, you know, attempt at endeavoring, but ultimately was not something I was going to, like, dedicate so much more of my life to. And so we still have some copies, right? And we still get, like, the occasional, hey, can I get a. Can I get this, like, vintage book that is no longer, like, in circulation? It's become a prize. It's been a prized possession of, you know, high school libraries of international schools around the world. But I've moved on at that point I got to university and that opened up a whole new world of opportunities, things to do, things to learn about. And the book project sort of retired, but in a way that I always feel like I can bring it back. Right. So yeah, for sure killed it.
- [10:15]
B
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a good podcast to me, bro. Chronological American history and just like go through and teach different lessons and stuff. That'd be cool, especially if like from your textbook that you wrote. That'd be, that'd be dope. Anyway, now second business university timeframe, post university. When did that come about?
- [10:32]
C
Yeah, I would say during university. See an opportunity with a couple of other partners to help build out the Ethereum network infrastructure. Right. So this is a whole different world. Much more technological, also very crypto, but not the scammy, like application layer of crypto. Right. But much more of like infrastructure, validating the network, creating Ethereum as a transactionable space. And I think mining is probably one of the better ways to describe it. And that's what we were doing. But we found a few clever ways to mine very efficiently where it is regulation optimized, tax optimized, energy optimized, and also, you know, protocol optimized. We're constantly maximizing how we mine and how we build infrastructure. That made a. You know, this was like, you know, 2016. So this, these. It felt like we were getting into the game really late by the time we were in it, but now looking back, we were so early and then like being early to Ethereum has really shaped a lot of my financial picture and a lot of like, the financial independence I've been able to access pretty early in my life is through that second venture.
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B
Really. So, so sorry. So you were bas essentially mining Ethereum?
- [11:51]
C
Yes.
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B
Wow. Okay. And what year was this?
- [11:53]
C
2016.
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B
Oh, wow.
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C
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it felt so. I feel like now we're going through the same process with AI. Like, it feels we're so late to the game, but like anytime, it's like, shit, all my friends, everyone around us are already like, AI deployed to the max. And yet looking back a decade, we'll be like, wow, we were so early. Yeah, we're getting so early. And that's a lesson I've learned from the Ethereum experiment is like now, now getting to Ethereum is late. And now the opportunity that we were taking advantage of that existed way back then does not no longer exists. And so that business kind of like retired in a very aged really well because it's returned its money like over and over again, many times. So there was no kind of hassle with it being kind of retired. Yeah. But now we, what we used to do is no longer possible. And so it's just a lesson for me now that we're going through the AI era of like, you are not late. I am not late, Travis. You're not late. You know, we're just getting started and it's a great time as any to get deeper into AI, into AI deployment and, you know, really build a whole career out of it.
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B
Talk to me about the personal finance side of this for a second. So you're building companies, obviously you're deploying capital against the company itself, but in this company you're actually mining Ethereum, which is also an asset that you could hold on to. What was your philosophy in terms of like selling off Ethereum versus holding? Was it like a percentage of allocation thing? Were you trying to diversify the portfolio at all? Like cash out some ethereum, put it in stock market or bonds or anything like that?
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C
Like, what was your thought on personal investment? Oh my gosh. This, this is such, this is like the number one question we have dealt with. Right. Because the business itself wasn't so complicated. We kind of figured out pretty quickly and the major decision that we were all, you know, struggling with. I had a couple of partners in this business. I was not the only one. And it was a constant debate of like, who does what. You know, are we selling immediately just like going through the market no matter what the prices? We have a discipline that like every hour, every day, we are disposing of the asset or are we gambling on the asset, saying, hey, like, I'm going to take this and hold it. And so for me personally, I have held it and I think that was the right choice for some time. I think I've held it for a little bit too long.
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B
I mean, time will tell though, bro. You know what I mean? Like right now, right now, yeah. But a year from now, two years from now, five years from now.
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C
I mean, Bitcoin and Ethereum are like, used to be pretty correlated, so you can kind of like see them rise and fall at the same time. I think recently they've kind of diverged a little bit in their pricing volatility. So it's been even harder to predict because there's no reason for Ethereum to gain in value. There's also no reason for Ethereum to like lose in value. Right. It's not attached to like a stock of a business. You can evaluate. It's not really attached to, you know, the actual use case of it because you don't need Ethereum price to be up or down for the Ethereum network to you know, amplify blockchain transactions. Like it's sort of like why does this thing even have a price? And it's really hard to sell. And unfortunately throughout this whole experience I have not gotten any better at you know, pricing. Yeah pricing Ethereum as a token. But I do feel like there, there was a time that I wish I sold more of it and I did and now I'm like waiting for the next 5,000 opportunity, waiting for the next kind of explosion but at the same time I don't know if it's gonna, I don't know if it's gonna happen. Right. So I am as confused as you are or as open minded as you are.
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B
Have you, have you ever, have you ever taken any like loans against the asset to be able to deploy capital without pulling it out?
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C
I am very like debt averse. Like I'm not, I'm not risk averse but I am debt averse. Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. I don't know what it is about me. I feel like a lot of people are like hey, you are very like good candidate for debt.
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A
Right.
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C
Like you, you get really good terms but I just always feel really uncomfortable. In fact one of the things that I share with my friends and they think that I'm really stupid for it but it's very psychological like I don't use credit cards. I personally never use credit cards. All my accounts, everything is run through debit. And there's something like it almost feels like I'm paying everything in cash, which essentially I am.
- [16:15]
B
Yeah.
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C
But it makes me feel really like whole and it makes me feel very like independent credit card. You're inevitably introducing a set of other parties that are now involved in every single transaction, every single consideration. And I know it's not good advice, right to never use a credit card or to avoid it but I'm very much like it's an emotional thing. Like I'm just so debt averse.
- [16:41]
B
Yeah, well I mean I don't think it's bad advice man. I think it's sort of a to each their own type of a thing. And you know, Dave Ramsey has built a multi billion dollar net worth off of telling people not to use credit cards for the last 35 years. So I think you, I think you might be onto something, man. Okay, so, so we have business one, we have business two. There's a third business before informed, is that right? This is the fourth?
- [17:02]
C
Yeah, this was the third. Because this wasn't a business in a sense of I'm going out and doing something on my own. Essentially me and a team of other folks got headhunted into this project within a larger technology conglomerate called Intuit, very well known across the us, very influential across the US and they were encountered with a problem. One of the businesses that it's very core and very important that one of the cash cows wasn't growing in a particular way. And so they're like, we don't know what to do. Can you help solve this problem? And what we've got around it is we need to build a new business, we need to incubate a new business within the enterprise environment, which we raised almost 30 million for and built it from zero to 300 people within a couple of years, within two years. And it has now been absorbed by the TurboTax Live portfolio. That's like what it's known as today, which is, you know, a billion plus dollar business for Intuit. And so it was really interesting experience because on one hand it was a big team, so there was a lot of like the co founder energy was definitely very strong and it was also within an enterprise. So it didn't really belong to us. Right. Like we were building it, we were like birthing it.
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B
But were they the ones that, were they the ones that funded part of the round?
- [18:19]
C
Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't even a round because it was internal allocation.
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B
Okay.
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C
What made it really special is because I don't know if it's that much easier to get internal allocation at a large tech company than it is to raise money externally.
- [18:32]
B
Sure. I was going to ask how that even came about, like was like, did they, did they hunt you out for this or did you like, hey, I have this idea and it would fit really well inside of your guys's current system. How did that opportunity come down?
- [18:45]
C
It was funny because they knew what the problem was or they thought they knew what the problem was, they didn't. They weren't sure what the solution was. And they were open to anything. Right. Like very blank space, like, how do we solve this? And the solution that we came up with is essentially, you know, pioneering a new company, incubating a new company within the enterprise. And so from the very beginning it belonged to Intuit. Right. There was never like a claim of like, oh, this is my company. There was no element of that. But the trade off that we willingly traded Is the access to technology to have and data to data, I mean, to all these things, you know, to the brand. To the brand of Intuit is unbelievable. So it allowed us to go from nothing to something very quickly. Building the same thing outside of the Intuit rails, right outside of the Intuit ecosystem would have taken us a decade and probably would still have failed against Intuit. And so it was a very special incubation experience that is not like a pure entrepreneurship story, but is like an incubation which is a different flavor of things. And it was really enriching. I learned a ton and I loved that experience.
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B
And you seeked it out or did they come to you?
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C
It was a mix.
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B
Okay, okay, okay. So how long were you working on that business? What happens in terms of like, exit equity? Like, was it sort of like we are. We are almost executives of this new entrepreneurial brand and we get paid salaries and small equity percentages. Like, what. What's the structure of a company like that? As much as you can share?
- [20:17]
C
Yeah. I think without divulging the details, I think we're all compensated pretty generously. And it left no broken hearts behind.
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B
Okay.
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C
But there was no equity component whatsoever because the uniqueness of what we were doing was, you know, not really. Like, we never really had equity claims because we were all within the. In the Intuit umbrella. And frankly, that was okay. That was okay with us. I think what we learned, what we built, and the resources we got to do it more than grateful for.
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B
And. Yeah. How old were you when you started? I don't remember, but like, 20s, 30s, 20s. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, fantastic opportunity to add to your resume at that type of an age. Like, it's like sort of the best of both worlds where you get to like, be an entrepreneur but without the same type of risk that you would assume under normal entrepreneurship rules.
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C
Exactly. I feel like that was the trade off is to do something that is really risky, really out there, really exciting, and take no risk at all. I think that was like the equity trade that all of us were more. More than willing to make. And this was also really unique for the company. Not a lot of companies have the incubation muscle, and it is certainly not one of them. Where this was the first time in like, I want to say, like all time. Right.
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B
Since.
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C
Since QuickBooks was born 30 years ago, that the company was building like a net, new business from the inside. It's not a. It's not a common operation. So we were like, this is a one in a lifetime One in a career experience, we're going to ask so many questions. We're just going to do it. I'm just going to make it. Make it work.
- [21:56]
B
Yeah. All right. So, so informed. How did this lead to informed? Obviously you've built, I mean, the companies we all. We've talked about so far, all wildly different, none of them in the same vein. I guess you could argue technology, but that's a really broad umbrella to live under. Where did it informed come from? Why start that business?
- [22:13]
C
Totally. I think Inform Now, I mean, it has some of the themes of, like, reorganizing information that go back to American chronology. And I would say in some ways what we're doing within intuit was reorganizing information also in a particular way. It was a marketplace solution. And so there was certainly information being reorganized, but, you know, only if you squint your eyes. For me, Inform now was a. Coming back to my own personal story. It's like my own experience, you know, just being a human, not necessarily being an entrepreneur. As I grew up between Ukraine and Israel and came to the US I seen just the highest of stakes of misinformation and misinformation overload, which is kind of what I call information overload and misinformation combined, which is the state of the world today. And I'm just seeing that world, observing it. There was a lot. There was a. There was a real, like. I don't know if it's a chip on my shoulder, but there's a desire, there's an enthusiasm even around wanting to build something that was not contributing to the noise, not contributing to disorienting people and manipulating people and influencing people in different ways with media, but rather making them feel empowered to make their own decisions, come up with their own opinion on things, and feel like without having to put gargantuan effort into researching, you can just know things and you can just get things that are factual from the start instead of getting things that are opinionated and having to, like, unwind the opinion to get to the bottom of things. Yeah. It's such an obvious feeling. It's such an obvious thing that we would want that. Right. And it doesn't exist. So that was like the. This personal kind of itch, this personal, like, vendetta of sorts. Of like having seen it at the highest of stakes in Ukraine and Israel and seeing the same thing play out in the United States, I'm like, I don't want to see the same episode for the third time.
- [24:10]
B
Yeah.
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C
But do something about it.
- [24:12]
B
How do you set something like that like this up? Like what, what are the, I guess long term monetization strategies? Did you raise capital for this? Is there a certain amount of users that you need before you become profitable? How, like how, how does the internal, you know, money metrics work for a company like this? Because obviously it's a very valuable product. But you know, I've been on it for a few days now and I haven't gotten anything about upgrade for this subscription or whatever, you know what I mean? It's very, very useful free service and I'd recommend anybody to go get and signed up to it. But yeah, how do you guys turn that into cash?
- [24:43]
C
Yeah, so we do actually monetize it in only one way and that is reader support. Because I think in some ways this venture for me is also like ethically and philosophically and morally very aligned, like my life philosophy and like what I think ventures should be and how they should contribute to the world. Problem that we see in news media is that the news companies and the legacy news companies have basically sold out the reader to the advertiser or to the sponsor or to some other external party that they monetize. So that's why it's free for the reader. But they productize the reader. They productize the reader's attention, their time, and they sell their eyeballs to the advertisers. And I think it's a very nefarious operation and it's so ubiquitous now that we've kind of just taken it for granted. The only way that inform now works is by putting the reader first. Right. The reason it is delightful and it doesn't serve some other master is because it only serves the reader. In order to only serve the reader, we can only take revenue from the reader. As soon as you start accepting revenue from advertisers, from sponsors, et cetera, or from tech platforms, you wind up having to optimize for them because they are. They become your customer. Yeah, we will only accept a reader as a customer. Our whole innovation. And so after a brief time when we show you the full power of facts in your pocket, we ask you for a tiny contribution that is almost like it's too little to even mention. It's essentially a free service that if you want to continue using it at its fullest year, because it's sort of like a freemium model, like you can see the whole thing, then you get downgraded if you don't want to pay. And you can feasibly never pay. Like it's Always free. But if you want to get the full power of facts, it's literally like less than $5 a month.
- [26:41]
B
Nice. I love that, dude. Is this the type of business you need to rate that you needed to raise capital? For what? What's the what? What are the sort of metrics that you're hoping to achieve?
- [26:52]
C
I think raising capital is, is a, is a type of VC propaganda. Like to, to run a business you need to raise capital or to be legitimate, to, to be valid, you need to raise capital.
- [27:02]
B
I agree.
- [27:02]
C
Wonderful story that, you know, the venture industry has put together and made us all believe there are very specific conditions where raising capital makes sense and within form. Now, given our margins, our profitability, which we reached really early on, it doesn't make sense for us to raise money. Like for you, you know, maybe we take out a credit loan of some sort, if I wasn't allergic to debt, and like, you know, accelerate growth through that. But frankly, like giving up equity, which will undermine our independence inevitably. And do it when we already have a profitable unit economic structure, you know, doing that just for the VC optics and the VC fantasy, like, I don't think it makes any sense. We've never intended to raise, we never made a, even a deck. Right. All our decks are like internal onboarding stuff. We don't even have like an investor deck or an overview deck of any sort. And I love mentioning that to people because they like, how, how do you not like. Because we don't answer to no VC master.
- [28:02]
B
Yeah.
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C
And, and that's been really empowering. Exactly what we want and serve. Exactly. The reader and nobody else. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:12]
B
No, no. There's no other cooks in the kitchen trying to convince you to take sponsorship dollars or do things that goes against the internal mission of the company. And then with something like this, I mean, like, do you even have to have like an engineering team worried about, like, I mean, it seems so simple.
- [28:28]
C
Yeah, we, we've really simplified it, minimize it to the core essence of what it should do. I think, you know, get a lot of questions like, are you going to run a podcast? Are you going to run a TV channel? Are you going to build an app? Are you going to build a website? And I'm like, absolutely not. Because those things may be like, good for us, good for some other monetization strategy. They're not good for the reader. All we're trying to do is master this one specific use case of being the best at what we do, which is news, research and deliver you news without noise and leave you alone as soon as you got the value from the product, like our whole ammo and the way we operate is even more defined by what we don't do than what we do, what we refuse to do than what we do. And the intention is very much to keep it very lean, very simple, very minimized, very minimalist so that we deliver the specific value, we precision medicine deliver the specific value and then leave you alone.
- [29:28]
B
Yeah. I love this business, man. Congrats to you on, on the success and wish you nothing but the best. Where can people go to get more from you?
- [29:34]
C
Yeah, so we're taking a page out of the booking.com crypto.com book where our name is also our website. And going to Inform now is a great way to learn a bit more about what we're doing and sign up right away. It's free.
- [29:49]
B
Free and crazy simple. Go to Informed now for somebody like me who tries to avoid most news sources just because they seem to put me in a negative headspin, but you want to remain at least somewhat educated about what's going on in the world. Informed Now, I've been on it for about a week now and I've read it every morning just because it's like you said, it's super simple. They send you a bulleted list of like four or five of the top things that are happening right now and then that's it. They don't, they don't bother you with a bunch of other, like you said, advertisements or, you know, upsells or a bunch of other potential things. They just send you these things, completely unbiased, no opinion stuff, just here's what happened and then they leave. So I highly recommend going to Informed Now. Super, super simple to sign up and get, get a bunch of. Get a bunch of value for free. And I obviously recommend that anybody support something like this when the time comes as well. So, Ker, appreciate you taking the time to come on the show, man. I know you're a busy guy. Don't take that for granted. Everybody else tuning in, remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems. We got some money in the bank, so let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace.