← Travis Makes Money
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- [00:00]
Travis
I was recently on whatnot the other day, just shopping around, looking frankly, because I was just blown away that this is something that people are doing with their time. And so I was like, I got to go see if this thing is real before I talk about it on the show. And so I'm browsing whatnot, looking around, finding things, and it's crazy to see the volume of people that are just having fun in the chat. They're watching people do live shopping. It's like, it's like you know, QVC directly on your phone. It's something you need to try, I'm telling you. Not just buying, but the selling piece to too. Where these people are just starting up pop up shops and businesses, selling whatever product, finding their people, building community, getting repeat customers that come back to see your face as the seller. Not just a logo or a brand, anyone can sell. Whether your business is big, small or yet to exist, people selling on whatnot sell 10 times more than on any other major marketplaces. And that's because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers across whatnot. The number of sellers making over $1 million a year has now doubled. The consistency pays off for those sellers. It's not just side hustle, it's a real path to building something that lasts. Because whatnot buyers spend more than an hour a day in the app, they're not just browsing around, they're engaged, they're buying, they're coming back. You go live, show off your products in real time and turn what you love into real income. So search whatnot wh o t Whatnot in the App Store, download it today and get started selling right away. You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis
- [01:43]
what's going on everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's a mission to help you all make a little bit more money on this episode of the show. I have a new friend, Jeremy Pollock, Jeremy's Ph.D. and he's social organizational psychologist and leader in the field of workplace conflict resolution and peacebuilding. He's the founder of Pollock Peacebuilding Systems International conflict resolution consulting firm and also the co founder and chairman of the Peaceful Leadership Institute 501c3 non profit dedicated to promoting the model and theory of peaceful leadership. He's a coach, trainer, mediator and author coaches and trains executives, employees at variety of levels and industries, from Fortune 100 companies to major nonprofits. And now he's here on the show to share a little bit with us. Jeremy, what's up, man?
- [02:27]
Jeremy Pollock
Welcome. Hey, thanks, Travis. Appreciate it.
- [02:30]
Travis
So this is. Anytime I talk to somebody who has like this sort of like, strange, unique niche that they've carved for themselves in the world, I find that it was not something that you threw down on your, you know, what do I want to be when I grow up? Report when you were 11 years old. So let's go back in time first and talk about how you got into conflict resolution to begin with. So first off, conflict. Tell me the first time you ever made a dollar that got you excited, that you were shocked or surprised by that somebody was actually willing to pay you money to do this.
- [03:04]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, I mean, I think definitely it was probably the first time I got paid once I started my consulting firm that someone's actually willing to pay, pay me to come in and train their staff on conflict resolution skills. That was a, that was a cool moment.
- [03:17]
Travis
Do you remember what that deal size was or what that contract looked like?
- [03:21]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, it was.
- [03:21]
Travis
You can share with us.
- [03:22]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, well, I think the, like, the very first one was, was probably around 10,000, but the, yeah. And then, and then the second one was the first time we had a six figure, A six figure program come through. I think I framed that a check for a while on my wall or something like that. So that was, that was cool. There's someone, you know, hey, we're willing to pay your company to come in and, you know, help us fix some of our conflicts on an ongoing basis.
- [03:46]
Travis
So that was cool.
- [03:48]
Yeah.
- [03:48]
So let's talk, you know, high school, college. What were you wanting to do?
- [03:52]
Jeremy Pollock
Oh, man. When I was in, when I was in high school, I wanted to be a musician. I'm a, I'm a guitarist, singer, and I, Yeah, so I, I went to undergrad and originally for music. Halfway through, I switched to writing to English and I discovered that I didn't want to be a traveling musician, that I wanted to be a filmmaker. And so I got out of school and I, I, you know, writing scripts and then eventually, like doing film production. And so I was in Los Angeles and so I was, I was like in the entertainment industry, you know, in my 20s, essentially. And then at some point I discovered it's not quite the industry I wanted to be in. It's not quite the kind of folks I wanted to interact with on a regular basis. I want to do something different. I got really into psychology. I did. I just started doing therapy for myself, which was really interesting to me. And then I started studying it and became a coach. And through coaching is how I got introduced to conflict resolution as just like a practitioner. I basically was kind of personal coaching people and like, professional development and personal development. And one of my clients said, hey, I got a problem with my business partner. You think you can meet with both of us and maybe help us talk it through? And I thought, oh, that sounds interesting. Let's try it. You know, I've never done that before. And I did it, and it was really interesting and fruitful. And then I had another client ask me if I could do that with their spouse. And I did that. And I thought, you know, this is. This is cool. I'm not. I don't want to be a couples counselor, but I do like this idea of kind of looking at an acute issue or a couple of different issues and helping them work through those. And that's when I got really interested in conflict resolution.
- [05:21]
Travis
And so you went back to school around that time?
- [05:24]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, so I. So around that time, I actually went back to school. Originally, I went to school for evolutionary anthropology, and I studied group cooperation and conflict. I was really interested in how group psychology works.
- [05:34]
Travis
Okay.
- [05:35]
Jeremy Pollock
Then I went. I went. I guess. So I got a master's in that, and then I. Then I did another master's right after that in conflict resolution and peacebuilding. And then after that, I went to my MI PhD program studying psychology, focused on social psychology and performance or motivation psychology. My. My goal when I was in a. I was actually doing my PhD because at that point I already started my consulting firm. My goal was to become what they call now a peace psychologist, which is a psychologist focus on how people think during. In peace and conflict. So it's a social psychologist with a specialty in peace and conflict psychology.
- [06:09]
Travis
So you had like, literally an entire career before you ended up pivoting in this direct direction.
- [06:14]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, it's not.
- [06:15]
Travis
It's not often that you talked with somebody who, like. Like the. There's no natural. Like, oh, well, I got into the film industry, which naturally, of course, leads to getting a PhD in social psychology.
- [06:29]
Jeremy Pollock
I was in, like, I had. I was. I was in the. Enter. I was in the film industry in my sort of like, mid to late 20s. And then I transitioned and became. We actually became a martial arts academy owner and instructor. And so I owned a few martial arts academies in my early 30s, and I ended up selling those and then got into full time coaching and then eventually consulting.
- [06:50]
Travis
Crazy. So tell me, tell me about the, that time period in, in your mind, right? Like you're in your 30s, you, you know, most people will. Culture at large would tell you, like, well, you're supposed to have things figured out by now. You know, you're, you're 35, you're, you're closing on 40, you know what I mean? Like, you should, you should have this figured out and like now you're gonna go do this brand new thing. Are you going back to school? What is wr, you know what I mean? Was there any of that outside external pressure that you felt? Was there any sort of inner, you know, like fear of, of this new career path that, that you were throwing everything away to do something different? Did any of that exist for me?
- [07:29]
Jeremy Pollock
No, because I, I sort of from the very get go, I kind of looked at my life differently. You know, my, my goal when I was, I remember being in my 20s, my goal, like very deliberately was I want to experience as many different types of lives and groups and cultures as I can. And I'm planning on switching careers multiple times in my life. So now I don't know that that's the best route for everybody. Like, is it, is it the, Is it? Maybe if I focused on one thing and just did that for like 30 years, like I, I'd probably be making more money and probably, you know, all that sort. But I just wasn't, I was more interested in having different types of experiences. So, you know, I, I was in, I went to, I went in the military as a reserve for a while. I was, I was working with the police department for a little while as a volunteer. I became an ordained Taoist priest. I was in a priest thing for like four years and finally became ordained. So I, and so in all of these different areas and became a meditation instructor, mindfulness instructor. In all these different areas, I got to meet and interact with very different types of people. And that's really what juiced me. And so I think like me now working, you know, as a martial artist and instructor, I got to meet a lot of different types of people. And then now me working as a consultant, I get to work with a lot of different types of people and all kinds of different companies all over the world. And so like, that's, that's what really drives me. It's not like, you know, I see some friends who've been working in the same thing and they've, and they probably have a lot more money than me and they've got a lot more establishment and I just think, you know, I don't have any regrets. Like I, I, I love doing new things. I, there's, there's, there's a good chance I'll change careers again in my 50s or something. I have no idea, you know.
- [09:11]
Travis
Yeah, well, at least like the, the mentality that the doors always open though, I think is really useful.
- [09:16]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah.
- [09:16]
Travis
You know what I mean? Whether or not it's a good idea for everybody to do that.
- [09:19]
Jeremy Pollock
Right.
- [09:19]
Travis
You know, and you're right, it's probably more of like a personality type thing.
- [09:23]
Jeremy Pollock
Right.
- [09:23]
Travis
Like it's because I tend to be the same way that you're talking about. You know, in the last 12 years I've probably done 15 to 18 different types of career, like mini careers almost along that way. But you know, stuck with this podcast the whole time. It's been almost nine years now, almost 2,000 episodes of this show. But it's probably just because I get to scratch that curiosity itch and it's something that, that I, that I enjoy do. I like talking to a bunch of different people about a bunch of different things all the time.
- [09:49]
Jeremy Pollock
That's cool.
- [09:50]
Travis
There's something that allows me to continue
- [09:51]
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- [12:18]
do that. And I think having that, having the willingness to be able to pivot at later stages of your quote unquote, later stages of your career is really important because. Or else you can get stuck in that sunk cost fallacy, man, and just be like, well, you know, I'd like, yeah, sure, it'd be nice to pursue that other thing. But I've been doing this for, you know, 19 years now, so what am I going to do? You know, I have, I've built a name for myself. These people know me as this. I have a degree in this. So I may as well just keep doing this. You know what I mean? It's like that just because you've been doing it for a long time, that is not a good reason to continue doing it. Now it is a reason, but it should be considered among a list of other potential reasons. You know what I mean?
- [13:00]
Jeremy Pollock
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, by the way, changing careers, it takes a level of like risk tolerance. Yeah. Or doing new things that's risk tolerant. And I, And I noticed something like, for people that, you know, like employees that I have and people that I work with, a lot of times their risk. The risk tolerance is simply too. And they know it, they respond is kind of too low to become an entrepreneur. And they're okay with it. And I And. And that's great. There's people that are willing to. Willing to be entrepreneurs and take the risk and not. And I just have to, like, there's people that I know that have become entrepreneurs that really didn't understand the risks. And it's. And it's very, very stressful for them. And I think it just takes a level of, like, I'm willing. I'm kind of. I can tolerate risk and not completely go crazy on stress. Do you feel like you have this
- [13:48]
Travis
internal level of belief that just, like, everything's going to be okay regardless?
- [13:53]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, that's part of what I studied in Daoism. Daoism was really about being able to put in. Put in a lot of action, but effortlessly and be okay, not be attached to an outcome, essentially. And I really. I try to practice that a lot. I mean, I really, like. People talk a lot about, like, what are your goals and where do you want to be and all that stuff. And I have goals and I write them down. But I. I am really. I don't know how to say this in like a. I don't know a way. A way that doesn't seem crazy, but, like, I really don't care. The only thing I care about is being with my family. And if, at the end of the day, whatever happens, as long as my wife and I and my. My kids are together, like, we'll be fine. Like, I just trust that.
- [14:38]
Travis
Yeah, well, that's why I asked the question, man, because I think that. That. I think that's a common denominator of people who have higher risk tolerance is that they're just this internal belief. Even if it's unfounded, even if it sounds like he said crazy or unrealistic, it's just like, I just believe it's going to work out. I think it's going to be fine. You know what I mean? And it's. And because it's difficult. Some of those days are hard. Some of those weeks or months can be hard.
- [15:03]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, really hard.
- [15:04]
Travis
You're just. You're uncertain. You don't know where the. The money's going to come from. You don't know how this is going to get pieced together. But there's just like this, look, I got food, I got water, I got shelter. I got my family. And that's really all I actually need out of life. I don't need to have this massive house or these multiple cars or this other thing or that other thing or this other thing. That culture Tells me that I need in order to be able to be quote, unquote, successful. Turns out none of that is true. And I'm okay with the reality that exists on either side of this coin if I have, like, these core things that allow me to actually just live and breathe and be a human being.
- [15:40]
Jeremy Pollock
Totally. I mean, one of the. One of the main things that. Lessons of my life, and I can't remember, like, who I. Maybe it was one of my coaches that I talked to about this, but I remember there was a switch that happened in my head at one point, and I said, I. I felt so much appreciation for literally just the food on the table that night and the roof over my head that I paid my rent this month. That was it. Like, I'm not focused on anything else, just that. And I'm like, I'm so grateful that I was able to pay my rent and, And. And put food on the table, and I felt so much gratitude for that. And I. I go back to that a lot where it's like, at the end of the day, I. I want this. I just want to focus on the gratitude I have for, like, the small wins, because that's. That's what matters every day.
- [16:21]
Travis
Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. Well, let's talk a little bit more practically about this. In this new business, the conflict resolution business. How long you been doing that now?
- [16:30]
Jeremy Pollock
So it's been almost. Probably eight. Eight years now.
- [16:33]
Travis
Okay.
- [16:33]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah.
- [16:34]
Travis
And first paycheck was 10 grand, which, like you said, is like. Yeah, I mean, it's a larger amount of money than for most people, I think. But when you're trying to run a business plus support a family and pay bills, like, that's not that much money.
- [16:48]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, back. Back when I started, it was. It was just me, so. Yeah, so. So I didn't. Yeah, so. And, you know, I think my first year in business, I made, I don't know, 50 grand or something like that, you know, And I felt great. That felt great. It was like, this is amazing. I could make a living, you know, just. But now when you have a kid and kids and, you know, wife and stuff, it starts getting more expensive.
- [17:08]
Travis
Yeah. Yeah. But it shows you what's possible. Right? Like, that's why those early years are so important. It's just like somebody was actually willing to let go of money in exchange for the expertise that I've built up in this area.
- [17:21]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, that was.
- [17:22]
Travis
Really happened once, it could probably happen again.
- [17:25]
Jeremy Pollock
Totally.
- [17:26]
Travis
The better I get at this, the more I can charge. And there's people with money who have the ability to pay that bill. And this could actually turn into something here.
- [17:34]
Jeremy Pollock
Absolutely.
- [17:34]
Travis
Yeah. Tell me, tell me those first, those next couple of years, like year two, year three. How long did it take you to feel like we're onto something?
- [17:42]
Jeremy Pollock
It was, I mean, luckily I had come from. So when I was doing martial arts, my martial arts academies, I learned SEO and I'd come from that world learning like digital marketing. And so that really I, I relied on that to bring in business for the martial arts and I, I did it, I started doing it again for the, for the new company and luckily we found some, you know, good keyword searches and good content and we built a lot of content that really started to drive traffic. So we were, we grew pretty steadily each year. I think like my second year we did maybe like we went from like 60,000 in my first year to second year was like 170,000 and then from there we went up to like 260,000 or something like that. And the next year was a half a million. So every year I would probably add a new like person on my staff. So like the second year I had, now I like what you might call an assistant, like an operational assistant who can just do a lot of the day to day stuff. And then after that I started bringing on actually full time people that could do the work. So I don't have to do all the day to day stuff anymore. Like so now at this point I don't really do a lot of client facing work unless it's like a big, big, big job. Otherwise I'm really just kind of running the business and I have full time staff that's actually the other experts that are running the sort of day to day programs with our clients. So yeah, so it was, it was, it was, it was, it was all about marketing, figuring out how to finance growth, which is a big thing that a lot of people don't talk about. And then, and then finding the right people to be on my team.
- [19:07]
Travis
How do you land Those first Fortune 100 clients or Fortune 500 clients? Like you start, you know, maybe first clients, a small business here and there. But then how you, how do you really get a foothold in an industry like that?
- [19:21]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, so luckily we have not done, I mean, I mean, I don't say luckily we, we have tried outbound, but out outbound marketing, you know, calling and emailing and stuff like that, We've never really found a way to make it work. So we've Always relied on inbound, which means we're producing a lot of content and we're getting our, you know, keywords ranked and our website ranked on different keywords on Google and stuff like that. Now it's changing with AI, it's very different now, but we're still focused on content and inbound leads. So you know, all of our, all of our, our big clients have literally found us by someone, whether it's the head of HR or the head of talent development or head of some department. They are searching online, they see our content, they read about us. Oh, this is really cool. Hey, we're looking for a trainer or a keynote speaker or something like that. And they reach out to us and then from there we start engagements and some of them are one time engagements and some of them last for years.
- [20:18]
Travis
Can you tell me more about your content output calendar?
- [20:22]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, I mean so I, I do. So we do from an SEO perspective. We're, we're doing, you know, I think it's a lot less now. When we first started it was a lot more. So we're doing anywhere from two to three blog articles a week. We're doing a lot of on site SEO optimization. So we're creating new pages, landing pages like service industry focus pages or you know, so conflict resolution services for accounting firms. We have a page on that and I want, for law firms. And so all of those we have and then we have across all kinds of different cities conflict resolution services in Los Angeles and Chicago and when all these different cities. So building a lot of different, very specific keyword focused content. And then in addition to all our written content which is our website, we also created other lead generating websites. So we have a serve like a de escalation. We do de escalation training in addition to all our de escalation training focused content on our main site we have a totally different brand sub brand under that we have a totally different website feel all that stuff. And it's just focused on de escalation training and so we have that posted. So we, we're doing lead generating websites that are also ranking and that sort of thing. And then in addition to that I do a lot of video and podcast stuff. So it's, it's a lot of YouTube channel stuff.
- [21:33]
Travis
How many lead generation purely lead gen websites do you have in addition to your main.
- [21:39]
Jeremy Pollock
We have like seven, but I would say that really only three are right now producing steadily.
- [21:46]
Travis
Yeah, yeah, cranking out.
- [21:48]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah. That are actually getting us leads on a regular basis. And I'll tell You man. The last six months have been a little scary from the SEO perspective because AI has just changed the game. People are now searching in different ways and so some of those sites have dropped in rankings and we're not getting as much anymore. So we're really trying to like, you know, stay up to date on what's happening and figuring out, you know, how do we, how do we produce content that's really, that AI likes? Because people are using AI now to search rather than just Google. Yeah.
- [22:16]
Travis
Have you found YouTube to be helpful with that?
- [22:18]
Jeremy Pollock
YouTube's super helpful. YouTube's ex. It's, it's a huge help in terms of not just lead generation, but I think really even more so Conversion conversion optimization. Because when someone gets on a call with us and they've, they've come to the call already having seen our content, they watched our YouTube videos and they, they, there's some trust built with them ahead of time. So it, it's an, it makes it an easier sales process when someone already sees what we've done.
- [22:43]
Travis
Yeah. Yeah, no kidding. What, what type of content do you put out on YouTube? Is it like under your company name? Is it under your personal name? What type of content?
- [22:51]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, it's my personal, it's both. It's like Dr. Jeremy Pollock Pollock Beast Building Systems. That's kind of like, I think it's how it's labeled. But yeah, I mean it's all me basically putting out content, just thought leadership pieces. I try to put stuff out there that as much as possible like it's kind of contrarian or kind of like a different perspective, a different approach to sort of the more traditional conflict resolution or peace building topics. Trying to do some interesting stuff and it's working. So so far it's, I mean I've only been doing it for a couple years. Okay. I'd like to, I'd like to be growing more, but definitely, you know, I'd like to get more. But hopefully, hopefully in the next year or two we'll, we'll get, we'll get a lot more.
- [23:29]
Travis
And what is, what does the content output look like for YouTube and video content across platforms?
- [23:34]
Jeremy Pollock
Typically we're doing, I mean on a, on a regular month, we're probably doing one kind of longer form video a week and then two to three shorts a week.
- [23:45]
Travis
Okay.
- [23:46]
Jeremy Pollock
Right now recently I just did a big blast. I put out like 16, like kind of long form or middle, what I call midform videos. So I just put a whole bunch out. But, but, but after this I'll probably just go back to like sort of once a week.
- [23:58]
Travis
How do you spend most of your time now?
- [24:01]
Jeremy Pollock
Most of my time is spent a balancing our, I mean I have a, we have a, a cf, you know, fractional cfo, bookkeeper. So I'm not, I'm. He's balancing our books, but I'm also doing my own balancing. So a lot of my time is spent in looking at our finances and trying to figure out, you know, maybe how to, how cash flow is looking and that sort of thing and filling in gaps. Secondly is really focused on like, what can we do from a lead generation perspective, how do we get more leads, how do we get out there more? And then thirdly now because of my book doing a lot of press, I'm doing a lot of podcasts. So a lot of my time spent just in trying to get, get the word out about what we do, who we are and you know, and just getting the brand out there.
- [24:39]
Travis
Why write the book?
- [24:40]
Jeremy Pollock
Why now? You know this. So this book is about the neuroscience behind conflict resolution. It's what I would call the third dimension of conflict resolution that has not been talked about a lot. When, when we're working with people that are in conflict and we're trying to help them build peace, a lot of the traditional methods are like really, I think a two pronged approach. One, one prong is help these individuals communicate better, help them understand each other better. It's an interpersonal kind of facilitation. The second prong, which is more tradit, which is also a traditional way of looking at it, is the systematic approach. So you're looking at the systems or structures surrounding the conflict. What in that system is keeping the conflict in place? What can we tweak or enhance or change in some way to help build peace? And so these were the two that have been focused on the most. And what I noticed is like there's such a huge internal component that this industry has not focused on. That's the nervous system component. And so I've been very focused the last couple years on just looking at, thinking about and researching how our nervous systems are, are, are behaving, how they are, how we are operating internally when we're in conflict and when we're in peace and how to get someone to switch from one to the other and what we need to do in our day to day practice and our work to help people regulate themselves and co regulate with each other.
- [25:57]
Travis
What's the name of the book? Where can people go pick it up. Is there a specific place you want them to go to?
- [26:02]
Jeremy Pollock
Yeah, it's called Wired for Peace, using seven neuroscience based principles to resolve conflicts. It's you can pick it up at online at any of the retailers, Barnes Noble, Amazon, et cetera.
- [26:11]
Travis
Sweet. Wired for Peace, Jeremy's new book. Go check out everything that he's talking about over there as well as check out his, his company. If you are in a position where you do not know how to resolve conflict really well, obviously you heard it here on the show. This is somebody who's spent the last decade plus actually more than that of his life figuring this stuff out so that you don't have to. So all you have to do is pick up a copy of his book and and download the information from his brain. So please pick up a copy of that book, Jeremy. Appreciate you taking the time. Everybody else tuning in. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in.
- [26:51]
Jeremy Pollock
Catch you guys next time.
- [26:52]
Travis
Peace.