Travis (2:42)

Hey, you know what? There's, that's a great line of food to know a lot about. I've only recently discovered how much I enjoy like the Mediterranean style food. So congrats to you for figuring out way early on and turns out it's like one of the most effective diets in the world as well, which is.

Charles Steele (3:02)

Sort of, I mean everyone, everyone loves Italian, but I find, you know, pasta at lunchtime makes you sleepy. Whereas Greek feta, Greek salads. It's the best. The best.

Travis (3:14)

Oh yeah, speak my language, man. All right, let's, let's jump into next stage of the career here. You can't work at places like Goldman Sachs without being highly qualified young person. Tell me about, you know, high school, college and then first job out of college.

Charles Steele (3:31)

Yeah, as I said before, I was very fortunate. I had a very middle class upbringing. I live in London and yeah, look, I managed to get into Cambridge University, I worked very hard, studied history. In the uk, you can study a crazy degree like history and still make it into finance. So actually prior to Goldman, I had one intermediate year where I was a stockbroker and talk about formative experiences. In that year I probably had to study the top 400 listed companies in the UK and I probably learned more in that year than I did in the whole of university. And I had some friends at Goldman Sachs and that was the premier investment bank in London at the time and so I was fortunate to go there.

Travis (4:20)

So would you rather, assuming the pay was the same, would you rather go back and work in the restaurant or go back to your first year before you hit Goldman?

Charles Steele (4:30)

Not in the restaurant.

Travis (4:35)

So even, even the mind numbing, research, learning, style work you preferred over the restaurant.

Charles Steele (4:42)

My story is I worked really hard to get into university and then, I'll be honest with you, at university I cru, played a lot of golf and then by the time I left, I knew I had to get going again. So I was hungry to get stuck in.

Travis (4:58)

I see. Okay.

Charles Steele (4:59)

So I was on that course by that point.

Travis (5:02)

Do you regret coasting through college?

Charles Steele (5:05)

Yes.

Travis (5:06)

Do you?

Charles Steele (5:07)

You have to, you have to do these things. And that's where I was at the time. I had a great social Life. I played golf for the university. I had a lot of fun. But I think if I had a bit more discipline back then, I would have got so much more out of it. But you live no regrets.

Travis (5:26)

Yeah, I was going to say so much more out of it, maybe from a professional standpoint, but, I mean, I don't know, man. I feel like. Especially that college age, you know, like, you don't get to go back and do that again. You know what I'm saying? Like that. And I understand what you mean, like, no regrets in general, but that's why I asked the question, because I was just curious, like, do you wish that you would have spent more time in books rather than doing the things that you did? Because I assume it was probably a great time and you probably have a lot of great memories from that time. And it's like, if you would have just studied and kept your head down, it's like, would you be ahead in your professional career? Like, maybe not. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how much it would have actually affected your ability to earn a paycheck when you left, because you can always work really, really hard, like you did your first year out of college and set yourself up to go have a tremendous career anyway. Right. So that's why I asked the question. I just. I'm thinking a lot these days about the juxtaposition between career success and friendships, relationships, and building memories and experiences which to me, make life worth living.

Charles Steele (6:23)

No, I know where you're coming from. And I wouldn't necessarily have spent more time in the library, but I probably would have spent more time going to lectures in different subjects. I was a very curious young person. And looking back, I probably didn't do enough at that stage to feed the curiosity. Yeah, I find myself in the last five years feeding my curiosity. I feel like I'm becoming a student again, actually, which is wonderful. Yeah, I just wish I had a bit more of that then.

Travis (6:51)

Sort of like you wish you would have understood the opportunity and the access that was at your fingertips during that time period. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so take this sort of like, not. I mean, I was gonna say gap year. That's a bad word for it because you worked harder that year than you did in several years leading up to that. But you get. This year here, you have some friends working at Goldman. You get on at Goldman. What was the difference in workload when you. When you made the switch over to Goldman?

Charles Steele (7:22)

I don't know how it is today. I. From what I understand It's a lot better at. As an analyst working in one of the top Wall street firms in the late 90s, you routinely worked 80 to 100 hour weeks. It's kind of mind boggling and that's the pressure you were put under. But there's something special that comes out of that. You're working with a lot of super smart, driven people. They're going through it with you. I'm going to use that word, camaraderie again. You sort of feel as though you're going through it together. And in a place like Goldman Sachs. I always say this. I learned what excellence was at Goldman Sachs. We thought we, even though we were like 21 years old and we were nobodies, we were like, we're working at one of the top firms and we're up against, in that case, Morgan Stanley. And we wanted to be the best. And somehow I took away, I was at Goldman Sachs for three years. I probably left because I thought I can't work this hard anymore. But I took it away from it. This notion of excellence. The mistake I made was the next place I went to, I worked just as hard.

Travis (8:37)

Yeah, that's how it goes, I guess.

Charles Steele (8:39)

Yeah.

Travis (8:40)

It's funny, I have a friend of mine, mentor of mine named Sharon. He worked at Goldman for a while and he said that was basically his number one takeaway from working at Goldman too was just the realization of the level of talent that he was surrounded by. That it was like, oh, everybody here?

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Charles Steele (9:28)

We heard you. Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello to the hot honey snack wrap. Now you've really won. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can.

Travis (9:42)

Is awesome at what they do. You know, like the, the the vast resources that companies like that dump into the acquisition and retaining of high quality talent was the biggest takeaway that he took from it which he's app into his own organizations. Because you build a team of high performance drivers who are constantly seeking excellence, then you can operate on a level that most companies will never be able.

Charles Steele (10:12)

To understand they are superb at that. If I were to draw a negative, it probably doesn't encourage curiosity and problem solving. It's just sort of hitting deadlines, cranking, producing high standard of work. Repeat, repeat, repeat. But yeah, once again, no regrets.

Travis (10:37)

Yeah. So kept on this sort of like Wall street esque career for quite some time. Did you have the intention of getting into this field with the degree in like studying history in college? Were you planning on doing something different with that? And then this is sort of what you fell into. Was it your intention to do that? And you knew that there was a path to do that even though you were studying history versus it was always.

Charles Steele (11:00)

One of the likely options. I studied economics, I don't know economic history. I was the kind of kid that read the Financial Times at university.

Travis (11:09)

Okay.

Charles Steele (11:10)

So I was interested in philosophy and politics and history more generally. But it was in the uk the degrees are very non vocational. So you're, the mindset is that you go there to learn how to think, to write, consume enormous amounts of information and then that skill set is what you go on to use in later life.

Travis (11:35)

Who's your favorite philosopher?

Charles Steele (11:38)

I would say Albert Camus, the French writer. And even though he says he was not a philosopher and he was a writer, I think he's, I find his, his worldview the most humane and warm and uplifting. Particularly for people that don't have like faith. I think often they get stuck and they, they get into like more nihilistic stuff.

Travis (12:02)

Yeah, nihilist.

Charles Steele (12:04)

I just find a beautiful writer.

Travis (12:06)

Yeah, yeah. I've not, I've not read any of his stuff. Do you have any like recommendations for starting with something from him?

Charles Steele (12:13)

The Stranger is a must read. And then the Plague and then those are his two most famous novels. And then if you're really interested in the philosophy. The myth of Sisyphus.

Travis (12:25)

I'm writing this down. The myth of what?

Charles Steele (12:27)

The myth of Sisyphus. Sisyphus, you might know the story about the guy who had to roll the rock up the hill and it gets to the top and it rolls down and he keeps doing it. And Camus says, he says, you must not think that Sisyphus is unhappy. You know, there's a moment of consciousness he has where he says real quick.

Travis (12:48)

Sorry, sorry, sorry to interrupt you. You cut out when you started talking about that. Can you re answer that question from the beginning?

Charles Steele (12:56)

Yeah.

Travis (12:58)

Starting with the guy who rolls the boulder up the hill.

Charles Steele (13:02)

So Sisyphus is the guy who is condemned to roll a rock up a hill for Eternity. And every time it gets to the top, it rolls to the bottom. He has to walk down. And Camus says, do not feel sorry for Sisyphus. When he looks up the mountain and he considers his fate, you must think of him as being happy. And what he means by that is that Sisyphus is condemned to do this, but he embraces it, and he makes the rock his own. And he's. He's what Camus would call a rebel. And so often the myth of Sisyphus is invoked when people want to talk about the idea of futility, you know, rolling a rock up and down the hill. But that's not what Camus meant at all.

Travis (13:51)

It was sort of the opposite of futility in his summation.

Charles Steele (13:57)

Absolutely. And that's why I find him such an uplifting person. He had. He had a very difficult life. He had tuberculosis. Tuberculosis. As a teenager. His mother was mute, deaf. His father died when he was one. And he turned that all around and wrote things which, I mean, in. In France, he's a national hero.

Travis (14:17)

Yeah.

Charles Steele (14:17)

Very inspirational guy.

Travis (14:19)

Interesting. Sorry. Sorry for the selfish, quick aside there, but I'm always curious when people study philosophy, what their. Who their favorite one is and see if I'm missing anything. And that's one. I have not read anything from him, so I'm definitely going to add those to my. To my book list.

Charles Steele (14:32)

O.

Travis (14:32)

Okay. So you spent two decades in private equity, obviously, and then you go work as an advisor to Tony Blair in Jerusalem and chair of Save the Children in uk. Where does this happen? What's the bridge between these two seemingly very different worlds?

Charles Steele (14:52)

Yeah, it comes back to the curiosity. I just like to try and do a lot of different stuff. So I think of the investing as like the spine of my career, and it's what I've done over two and a half decades now. But there are a few legs and arms sticking out of the spine. And I had the opportunity to go and serve as an advisor to Tony Blair, working in the Mid east in his capacity as the envoy for the Quartet, bringing to bear my experience of business and finance. And so it was the same with the international development nonprofit, bringing my knowledge of working on boards and ultimately writing a book about the richest businessman in the world. It was just another way to explore what I had learned in business over the years.

Travis (15:42)

So let's talk a little bit about this, the new book, the Curious Mind of Elon Musk. 9 Ways He Thinks differently. This would not be like a biography, Right. This is more like, here's this is a study of the way that he thinks. Is that right?

Charles Steele (15:58)

Correct. Travis, you've got a very good measure of me. Very quickly. I'm interested in philosophy, I'm interested in ideas. I looked at someone like Musk, and I believe he's very hard to categorize. Having worked in business, I think he's unlike any other business person I know. Having worked in other arenas, there are similarities, but he doesn't fit that either. So I wanted to understand what really drove him, what drives the most driven person in the world. And I went on that journey to try and research and understand for myself. And as I say, I emerged with these nine principles which I think are the key to understanding him.

Travis (16:40)

When did you start this research project? When did you sort of take this on as something that you were going to do?

Charles Steele (16:46)

I started before he announced the acquisition of Twitter, which was.

Travis (16:53)

Oh, wow. So quite a lot has transpired since you began your research.

Charles Steele (17:02)

The whole final third of the book was not in the original draft. And funnily enough, since I finished it, obviously he's announced that SpaceX is buying Xai. So people say, are you updating it? And it's like any book that any. Anyone writes on Elon Musk will be unfinished.

Travis (17:20)

Oh, yeah. I just never thought, yeah, until. Until he's done with his life there. That book will be unfinished, that's for sure. Were there any characteristics that you found to be surprising that you uncovered in research that you were like, ooh, this is one I was not expecting to have found?

Charles Steele (17:42)

We actually stumbled upon it already, this myth of cisfus idea. I think the only way to understand Elon Musk, because I do think that he's different than certainly any other businessman that I've come across, is that he's just a very unique mixture of different ingredients. And I think people see what they want to see. But if you look at how he came to be who he is, there's a real. There's a real. I call it existential anxiety with Maximus, which dates back to his childhood, to his formative teenage years. There's also undoubtedly hyper rationality. You know, the iq, the engineering ability is extraordinary. Now, those two things don't normally make for a very good combination. In fact, they normally. We're talking a lot about literature, but I'll mention another author, Dostoevsky, wrote a book called Notes from Underground, about a guy who was very smart. He had a very abstract view of the world, and he was wracked with anxiety, and the guy went bonkers. And the character in the book says, I talked a lot, but I never actually did anything. And for me, this is the crucial third ingredient for Musk is his creativity. He was able to find a way to channel that anxiety and that hyper rationality and to make it very constructive. Now you need both of those ingredients. And that's why I think when people look at him and they think they might try and copy him, you know, he says, be careful what you wish for. You probably wouldn't want to be like me. But given where he started, his ability to harness those traits and to reframe them in a positive way, which is what he did with the help of Douglas Adams and others, Isaac Asimov, I think is remarkable. I think it is why he is so driven. And the funny thing is, because you asked was I surprised by this? He talks about it a lot in lots of interviews. He talks about Adams and existential crisis. And I think a lot of people kind of roll their eyes and think, yeah, that's just some self pathologizing. And I. I strongly disagree. I think the only way to understand the guy is to go back and follow that journey. And I think he's the sort of person who wakes up every day thinking, I've got to increase consciousness so that we get closer to posing the questions to the answer that is the universe. He kind of thinks in that way. He describes it as niche and he describes it as esoteric. But I think that is fundamental to him. And I wasn't necessarily expecting that when I started.

Travis (20:40)

Yeah. What about. What about a couple things that you were. That were maybe sort of obvious that you confirmed through research?

Charles Steele (20:50)

So I think he has. So I break him down into three ways when I think about him, when I talk about him, there's kind of what's unique about him which I've touched on. There's how to run really effectively a product engineering company and to have the culture that enables you to excel, maximizing innovation and so on. And so that was sort of in line with what I had been expecting. And then there was a more general sort of psychological reframing that he does, which I think is applicable to everyone in terms of being fatalistic, looking on the bright side of life, thinking of the future as a set of outcomes, and realizing your ability to. To affect the probability of each of those outcomes. That was something which. Which I think was also a surprise. And it's something. And I say that because I found myself in writing the book, putting into practice what I felt I was learning from him.

Travis (21:58)

Yeah, the he so basically just the, the. Just the way that he thinks. Like, he. He's a ultimate example of first principles and game theory lived out in the real world to some degree.

Charles Steele (22:16)

No, correct, correct. I mean, so I think of him when you really break it down, what makes him different? He's incredible engineer. It's hardly ever talked about. When people talk about Musk, he's just a business guy, they forget that he is, as you say, incredible at first principles thinking. And he's incredibly driven. And because of this, he is an incredible entrepreneur. And so when I was doing private equity, I used to think, what is the kind of person we want to back? What is a really great entrepreneur? And for me, it's someone who looks at a situation with a certain amount of risk and a certain amount of reward, and they undertake it because they back themselves. They think, I'll take that bet because I'm kind of betting on myself. And Musk does that. Like, he takes on more risk than anyone else because he believes in his ability as an engineer and his determination. He's not going to give up.

Travis (23:25)

Yeah. Delusional awesomeness.

Charles Steele (23:27)

I think in some ways, Travis, I think everybody can implement that to some degree. So that's why I find it the most universal thing. What stops a lot of people is they think, I don't know what it is that I want to do. I think, take your time, work hard in your 20s, hang around other smart people. Hopefully at some point you'll figure it out. And then there are some people that just doubt their ability to do it, even if they have the ability. And for those people, I think there's this sort of fatalistic, just give it a go. As Musk would say, what's the worst thing that could happen? I completely fail. That's going to be horrible. But even if that happens, I'm still alive, I'm still standing. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. But don't lose that fear that that could happen, but rather reframe that and use that to drive you to make sure it doesn't happen. And then what you realize is we always think the outcome is binary. You either fail or you don't. And it's not. It's a range of different things. And where you end up along the way is somewhere different than you expected when you started. But when you realize that what you do when you back yourself changes the probabilities of the outcomes, that's when it gets pretty exciting.

Travis (24:54)

Yeah. And he very much put his money where his mouth is on that. Like, he bailed out both of his own companies that were both on the verge of bankruptcy right around the same time with his own personal wealth to drag them both out of being bankrupt to then become both of them independently. Trillion dollar companies. Pretty remarkable. It's also insane to me because seemingly the entrepreneurial brain and the engineering brain are almost at odds with each other. And they have some common characteristics, right? Like creativity, the desire to build something didn't previously exist. Some of those things are intertwined. But this sense of, like, delusional optimism that what you're working on will be a success is almost in direct contradiction to the engineering brain of how do we guarantee success in this, you know, endeavor? But he somehow, like, allows both truths to exist in his mind while defaulting more to that optimistic point of view that says, like, doesn't really matter because I'm going to do it anyway. So I may as well believe that the outcome is going to be positive because I'm going to put in the work regardless of whether it's positive or negative. Right.

Charles Steele (26:06)

Completely. And for me, this goes back to his unique mixture of that sort of anxiety and the hyper rationality. And, you know, people often say, you know, there are some great books I love. For example, there's a lovely book called Scout Mindset which encourages you to be rational in your work. And I read that, and I think, yeah, a lot of this is so true of Elon Musk. And then I think, but this book doesn't talk about the emotion, it doesn't talk about what drives him. You know, everyone says about Musk, you listen to lots of podcasts. Be. Be hardcore, work really hard, never give up. You know, be obsessive. You know, it's like, okay, yes, we can all agree on that, but what drives him? Why? And in my mind, it does go back to this rather, rather unusual philosophy that he has.

Travis (26:59)

Yeah.

Charles Steele (27:00)

I think what's interesting also just, I think there's something different about tech companies, which are on the frontier of what's possible. And this is where Musk tries to put himself all the time, whether it's electric vehicles or space or AI or neuralink, because those people see that technology is probably the biggest lever to have an impact on the world.

Travis (27:27)

Yeah.

Charles Steele (27:29)

And therefore they're incredibly ambitious, especially with software, not only because Musk is increasingly doing hardware, but they really think big. And so many of these top Silicon Valley founders do have, as a result, a sense of mission. It's something which the famous venture capitalist John Doar used to talk about. They're not mercenaries. They're missionaries. And I think a lot of people sort of think, oh, that's techno optimism. I don't really like that. But whatever it is, when they're going gets tough, it does motivate them to keep going. And that is something that does set them apart. I think there's something that Andrew Huberman said which really struck a chord with me, which is some of the most high performing people have an ability when they experience pain or suffering from doing something very difficult, in a weird way, they enjoy that pain because they associate it with the positive outcomes of doing that. So with Huberman, you can imagine it's, I'm in the gym, I'm working hard, and I'm just gonna relish the pain. And it sounds crazy, but I, for example, have had a glimpse of this. When you're writing a book and you're rewriting and you're rewriting and you're stuck and it's frustrating and you say to yourself, look, this is really hard. But maybe the hardness is not such a bad thing. Because if it wasn't hard, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. So maybe the feedback is keep going. And if you believe in what you're doing, then the hardness is actually a good thing.

Travis (29:16)

Yeah, I love Mark. No, Mark Manson. He's written a couple of massively successful books. He has this thing where he says, what's the shit sandwich that you're willing to eat? You know, because it's like struggle, pain, all these things. These are inevitable byproducts of pursuing anything in life that's worth pursuing.

Charles Steele (29:37)

Yeah.

Travis (29:37)

The question is, is this a shit sandwich you're willing to eat or is it, Is it, you know, that writing process, a lot of people don't want to do that, which is why they don't do it. Or. And if they force themselves to do it, the outcome probably isn't going to be that great because they don't actually enjoy the pain of the process that a good book requires. Yet the people who write the best books are the people who enjoy that shit sandwich where they're like, man, they're, you know, on month seven of redoing their second manuscript that they're trying to get approved, you know, and it's just like, this is the worst, yet at the same time, it's also kind of the best. You know what I mean? Like, there's this, it's the, it's the yin and yang, you know, of life, where it's just like everything that's worth pursuing is going to suck probably to the same degree that it's going to be awesome. And the, your ability to make it to the awesome part largely relies on your ability to withstand the sucky part first. You know what I mean? And that sort of applies across the board.

Charles Steele (30:42)

And unfortunately you can't learn that at school.

Travis (30:47)

That's right.

Charles Steele (30:47)

I have a 10 year old son and I'm trying to think how to ingrain that. And you've got to step back and let them make their own mistakes.

Travis (30:57)

Let me know if you figure that one out.

Charles Steele (30:58)

You may have something interesting that also came off my research. The framing of the book is the curious mind of Elon Musk. And everyone knows the curious means inquisitive. And then everyone on it knows this sort of more old fashioned way that something that's curious is peculiar or strange. I like that double entendre. And then I discovered actually there's an even older version of curious. There's a Dickens novel called the Old Curiosity Shop. So a curiosity is something which is very intricately and beautifully made. And in the old sense of curious, it means it's made with great care. It's very carefully made because it's so intricate. And I think what this shows is there's the link between being curious and taking the care to do really difficult things. And funnily enough, there's a link with the strange definition of curious because there aren't that many people that do that. And so the people that do it often end up looking strange. And Elon Musk would be a point.

Travis (32:10)

In case, probably the ultimate hyperbolic example of strange.

Charles Steele (32:17)

And so I conclude the book by saying don't worry so much about being normal. Embrace your differentness. And if you are kids, they're a bit strange, don't try and make them conform. And I profoundly believe that. I think like, don't try and do what everyone else is doing. Figure out what makes you different. What are you really curious about that other people are not. Follow that. And then the podcast is about money. That's actually a way that you can make money. And I know that your strap line is money only solves money problems, but it's, it makes easier all the other problems when you've got money in the bank. But I think curiosity and creativity are things which both can help you make money, but help with all the other problems too. I think it gives you a tremendous amount of purpose. That's right. So that was my main takeaway.

Travis (33:20)

Charles, I really appreciate this conversation, man. I know we're going a little bit over here. So I want to be respectful of your time. Where can people go to find the book, learn more from you, get more from the stuff that you're putting out there.

Charles Steele (33:31)

Thank you Travis. The book the Curious Mind of Elon Musk 9 Ways He Thinks Differently. It's on Amazon and all the usual booksellers. I can be found at my website CharlesSteele.com, which is my name, and on the usual social media outlets.

Travis (33:47)

The Curious Mind of Elon Musk. Go pick up a copy of this book. I am sure you will not regret that. I know I'm adding it to my list as well as a couple of these other recommendations that I'm going to try to work through as well. So Charles, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're a very busy guy. Do not take that for granted. Everybody else listening, you heard it from Charles. Remember, money only solves your money problems. But it's a little bit easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's solve that one first here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace out.

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