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Travis Makes Money
INTERVIEW | Make Money Turning Trash into a $100M Business with TerraCycle Founder, Tom Szaky
00:25:06
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- [00:01]
Travis
This episode is brought to you by indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate. C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis what's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's a mission to help you make more money. Today on the show, I am talking to a new friend of mine, Tom Zaki. From a Princeton, New Jersey basement 25 years ago to today, a nearly $100 million business, TerraCycle, founded by today's guest to Tom Zaki, is truly changing the world. The company is an international leader in innovative sustainability solutions, creating and operating first of their kind platforms in recycling recycled materials and reuse. Recycling can be boring, but not with TerraCycle. Company known for recycling the hard to recycle recycled cigarette butts and turns them into shipping pallets, recycles gum, turning it into raw material and juice pouches into backpacks and picnic benches. They found a way to take things that have typically been waste and recycle them and reuse them for other really useful things. Which is one of the cool businesses that I, I like to see businesses like this because it's sort of one of those things of like we can rely on the government to try to come in and solve all of our problems, or we can rely on entrepreneurs who actually build some sort of a for profit business that helps solve the problem while also creating jobs and helping the economy and things like that. Which is one of my favorite things about entrepreneurs in general. So, Tom, what's up man? Welcome to the show.
- [01:51]
Tom Szaky
Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.
- [01:53]
Travis
So this is 25 years ago that you started this. Was this your first business ever?
- [01:58]
Tom Szaky
No, I mean, I fell in love with entrepreneurship at a really young age. I started, I mean I had a pretty badass lemonade stand, but you know, first real business was 14. You know, I had a little web design company. This was back like in 1999, 2000. Internet was just starting. So as a kid you could code websites and get clients and yeah, that was sort of the beginning, you know, business for me. And then TerraCycle. I started my freshman year of undergrad and then left. And, you know, that's 25 years ago.
- [02:23]
Travis
No kidding. Did you go to school for business or entrepreneurship?
- [02:26]
Tom Szaky
No, I mean, I, from high school went down. The reason I got to Princeton or went to Princeton university, hence why TerraCycle started in the Princeton area and it was just a general, you know, sort of undergrad. You know, what was nice there about schools? You could take any classes you wanted. For the first two years, I was doing Buddhism and art, you know, economics, like just all over the place and came up with the business concept, you know, within about six months of landing there. And by sophomore year, I just got too busy with it, so I left school and dedicated myself full time to it.
- [02:51]
Travis
Yeah, but you, I don't know if you. Anybody told you this, Tom. You can't be successful if you don't have a college degree. So,
- [02:59]
Tom Szaky
I mean, I love school, don't get me wrong. It's just, you know, I couldn't do both. Well, right. I was just. It got so much and, you know, I decided like, I had to pick one or the other because there's no way I could have done both, you know, in a, in a high quality.
- [03:12]
Travis
Where did the idea come from? What was the first iteration?
- [03:15]
Tom Szaky
So it's fascinating, you know, at the beginning, what attracted me to entrepreneurship, you know, in high school was I figured it's my ticket to fame and fortune, right? Which are relatively sort of selfish points of view. And in college I was, you know, sort of grappling a bit more with more utopian concepts, like, why is it that people make a lot of money then become philanthropists? Why can't the whole thing come together, you know, at the very same time? Why can't you make money in the business of doing good? Right? And so I was just like, had my eyes open for like purposeful entrepreneurial ideas and the idea of waste sort of came across my desk. It did in the sense like my friends is before, like pot became as acceptable as it is now. You know, they were growing plants in their basement, couldn't really make them work. And one day they took organic waste, fed it to worms, and took the worm poop and fed it to the plants and miracle, the plants are doing well. But for me, the real exciting part of that was like thinking about the. The idea of waste because it's filled with all these insane anomalies. I mean, just to give you a few, right? Like garbage is the only material or, or, you know, product in the world that we pay to get rid of. Yeah, it has negative demand to the point where we pay people to get rid of it. Garbage is the only industry that will own everything we possess one day legally. No one else can say that. And for how big of a statement that is, mind you, 99% of what we buy is their property within the year of purchase. Right. For how big of these statements are, it's also the least innovative industry by far per dollar of revenue. So it's like the opposite of starting an IT company or entertainment company or, you know, you name it, healthcare. Because then competition is everywhere in garbage. It's all blue ocean innovation. It's just because no one wants to think about it. So there's all these, like, anomalies, and it got me really excited because those are like, you know, beautiful, fertile ground for entrepreneurship, and it's incredibly purposeful to solve at the same time.
- [05:04]
Travis
So what was the first step? Like what. What was the first thing that you jumped in with?
- [05:09]
Tom Szaky
So, with the realization of the whole, you know, worm poop thing. Growing plants. Right. TerraCycle started as a worm poop company. That's why this episode of the show
- [05:17]
Travis
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- [07:30]
Tom Szaky
Go to mars.com was terra cycle, the logo I drew originally as a worm. And what we did is we effectively started taking organic waste from the cafeterias at school, feeding it to worms, then taking the worm poop, making it into a tea or liquefying it if you will. Then we had sort of a packaging breakthrough which is we packaged it directly in used soda bottles, like old Coke and Pepsi bottles and then got that listed at Walmart, Home Depot, you know, big, big box retail and became a fertilizer company. And that was our journey from like zero in revenue over five years to about 5 million in revenue. Was a consumer product company making stuff out of garbage.
- [08:09]
Travis
No kidding. So you, so you line the shelves of Walmart with basically fertilizer in a bottle.
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Tom Szaky
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Travis
For a specific use case or like, like potted plants type of a thing.
- [08:19]
Tom Szaky
Yeah. So our fertilizer would have competed with Miracle Gro, you know, would have been like the big brand people know and from like think ready to use fertilizer. That would be like for potted plants or home garden all the way to like cactus fertilizer, African violet rose. What the insight there was depending on what you feed the worm they poop different poop. Right. Just like how if we eat Indian food or pizza, we're going to have something else in the toilet. And that created these different formulas. And we even had, like, lawn fertilizer. Then we started expanding to imagine taking, like, a 2 liter used soda bottle, flipping it upside down, and then filling it with bird food and making it a bird feeder, you know, or old wine barrels from Napa Valley turned into rain barrels. Like, all sorts of mostly lawn and garden products made from waste we could find.
- [09:04]
Travis
Wow, that's insane, dude. What was the first, like, big obstacle you remember thinking, like, I have no idea. How do you package worm poop? You know what I mean? Like, even just something like that, how do you overcome some of these challenges?
- [09:18]
Tom Szaky
Yeah. So as you asked the question, I think at the beginning, I mean, I was 19 at the time, right? And the business experience I had was really, like, small, almost like consulting business, you know, like doing websites for people and whatnot. That I wouldn't call that, like, real enterprise, you know, at this level. So I didn't know anything like how to build a team, how to raise capital. The solution to all of that just came down to grinding really hard. Like, you know, I remember, like, in capital raising, we would just go and pitch angel networks business plan contests. And we properly sucked at the beginning. And just by doing them over and over and over, we honed it to the point where we were winning these and getting capital. Or the way we got listed at big box retail was honestly. And this is. That's from 20 plus years ago. So the world was slightly different. But we got the name of the buyer, you know, through LinkedIn or whatever we could scrounge. And then we would just call the buyer every hour from a different phone number because, you know, you had the caller ID thing pop up. So we'd use, like, 10 different phones, call every hour. And after, like, six weeks of doing this, the guy gave us a meeting, I think, just to have us stop doing this. And he even said it when we went down to Bentonville. He gave us, you know, the shelf space. Because he goes, I, you know, this is a nutty project. It's crazy worm poop in a U soda bottle. But your passion is, like, so fierce. I know you guys are gonna make, you know, promoted enough that it's gonna get off the shelf. And it did, you know, and it worked. And so for a lot of it, it was. You grind through it and you really hear what is the feedback like. Take the criticism as a gift. You know, the good feedback never helps. Cause it's like, good for the ego and whatnot. But you learn nothing so we were always trying to. Like, when an investor said, no, I was like, okay, great. Now please rip the business apart, tell us all the problems. Because that was then what we worked on. And then we fixed it and we did it again. And you just kept refining in that fashion. The only other note there was. It was also in, like, big moments of desperation that our biggest sort of innovations happened. Like, a big thing that really crystallized that product at the time was actually packaging it in used bottles. So imagine we would have used Coke and Pepsi bottles running through a bottling line filling worm poop. Right. Which is. People have never done that before. But we did that because we couldn't afford packaging. We were sleeping on the. On the basement floor, you know, and couldn't afford it. Our idea was, oh, wait, there's. People are throwing packaging away in recycling bins. Let's just go get that and use it temporarily. It became a huge differentiation for the product at the time.
- [11:44]
Travis
Were you filling the bottles yourselves or like, how did you even. How do you even find a manufacturer? That's like, all right.
- [11:49]
Tom Szaky
No, we did it ourselves at the beginning. Yeah.
- [11:51]
Travis
So like, just like a funnel and
- [11:53]
Tom Szaky
pouring well at the. Let me tell you. Okay. So the first palette when we did this was all hands. So the. The bottle had to come. It had to be cleaned. So we just, you know, cleaned it in dishwashers. Then we made the worm poop and brewed it into a tea in these, like, big drums. We then had to put a label on. And the idea. I sort of have an example. This is not the exact label, but this is one that I had from, like, 20 years ago, where you can sort of see the Coke bottle and you have to put, like, a label, right?
- [12:18]
Travis
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:19]
Tom Szaky
And to get the label on, because we couldn't afford a heat tunnel, we just put four hair dryers, you know, like, up like this, and would dip the bottle, burn your finger a little bit, then funnel fill. Yeah. Hand tighten and put it out. That was the first, like, maybe 100 grand of orders we did. And that's like hundreds of hours of filling. And then from there, we bought equipment and, you know, grew and. And. But we never outsource because a co packer would never fill in this fashion.
- [12:43]
Travis
Yeah.
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Tom Szaky
You know. Right.
- [12:45]
Travis
So because they're filling other, like, I assume it would be almost like a conflict in the, you know, cleanliness of their facility.
- [12:53]
Tom Szaky
Oh, my God. And even just how do you deal with the fact that they're all different bottles going through? So we had to, like, construct Special equipment, you know, just figure it out. But, but it was always that if, if, if there was a problem, you just grind through it. And grinding could be hand filling, if that's what needs to happen. I mean, you just do whatever is needed to be done.
- [13:10]
Travis
What were you raising capital for?
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Tom Szaky
So we, because we were dealing with, you know, trying to sell to, you know, big retailers at the time, and fertilizer is exceptionally seasonal. All your orders about this time of the year Q4, you sell in the spring. And then there's, you know, sort of a break, if you will. So we had to use the capital to bridge that gap. We wanted to buy things like filling equipment. We had to do studies on the efficacy of the fertilizer, like all those different. And then also funding all the mistakes we made.
- [13:38]
Travis
Were you blown away also by the payment terms of retail distributors?
- [13:44]
Tom Szaky
Yeah. So we learned quite a bit. And especially like, if you're selling to a store, you're never going to get paid what you, what, what the PO says at the beginning. You know, you're going to have all these chargebacks and discounts and then you got to go down. I mean, I spent so many days at Walmarts and Home Depot demoing product. Right. You never truly think about all those costs. And I would say it's, you know, after five years of doing it right, and we grew, you know, 5 million is a nice little revenue number when you're 23. We did a big reflection at that time. You know, we really thought to ourselves, like, is, are we a fertilizer business? Because I never created TerraCycle with the intention of being a fertilizer business. It was, how do we solve this crazy anomaly of waste? And we realized that, you know, we needed to pivot. And we effectively, within one year, shut the whole worm poop business down and changed the company to effectively what we are today. And the crazy part is we were able to do that and grow revenue. So, like, had you seen our revenue growth, you would have never noticed the company went through a foundational metamorphosis. Wow. We had to change half our staff. We had to. I mean, everything shifted. And instead of focusing on the output, like the product is the business hero, we upstreamed it and focused on the garbage as the business hero. Right? So instead of, hey, we want to make a, you know, let's say a bird feeder, what type of garbage can we make it from? We said, well, hey, juice pouches are not recyclable, or cigarette butts are not recyclable. How do we Create a supply chain to solve cigarette butts or juice pouches or. Now. Your planet is now marked for death.
- [15:13]
Travis
Marvel Studios. The Fantastic Four First Steps is now streaming on Disney. We will protect you as a family.
- [15:19]
Tom Szaky
Light them up, Johnny. Marvel's first family is certified fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.
- [15:24]
Travis
That is fantastic.
- [15:26]
Tom Szaky
And critics say it's one of the best superhero movies of all time. Marvel Studios the Fantastic Four first steps now streaming on Disney.
- [15:34]
Travis
Rated PG13.
- [15:35]
Tom Szaky
What time has it been? It's Clover time.
- [15:40]
Travis
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- [16:09]
Tom Szaky
Hundreds and hundreds of different waste streams.
- [16:12]
Travis
How are you able to do that without dropping revenue in that. Like, it sounds like a. Like, it sounds like a long process to learn how to build a supply chain to reuse some of these things.
- [16:20]
Tom Szaky
We lucked into it, right? So we had to get in the worm poop days, use soda bottles. Like, we had to get those. And you couldn't really get them from a recycling center easily because out of a recycling center, they would have already been driven over with vehicles. They would have been, like, really deformed and, you know, just not nice on a shelf later. And so we need to get it right from the collectors. And so we created a thing that we called the bottle brigade, where we went to schools and, hey, guys, can you collect soda bottles from us? We'll pick them up for you, and we'll pay you 2 cents a bottle as a thank you. And that became a really good source of quality waste, if you will. Like, these bottles were not deformed, very easy to, you know, to fill, and then put the worm poop in and all that. And that became a really great way to collect waste. And then as we expanded into other products, we started setting up these brigades, if you will, for other waste streams. And they worked very well. Think, like yogurt cups to use as planting pots and so on and so forth. And when we went into the pivot, we realized that we have this great asset of how we get waste. We're really good at getting pure. Like, if I needed to just get, you know, just energy bars or just eyeglasses, I could get that like it was functioning. So we went to, you know, I'd say we took first a big academic step backward. We took this big sort of academic journey on what really drives recyclability. Because in my eyes, and I think this is for most folks, you'll. You know, one would say a cardboard box is recyclable because it can be. And a toothbrush is not recyclable because. Because it cannot be. And as we dug into it, we realized that it has nothing to do with the truth. The reality is all recycling in the world is carried out by for profit garbage companies. And believe it or not, there's no law anywhere that says they must recycle anything they collect. So you're like, local recycler could take your blue box, throw it out in front of your face and you'd have no recourse. Right. It doesn't mean it's broken, it just means what they're recycling is not something that's mandated, but instead what they can make money on.
- [18:14]
Travis
Sure.
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Tom Szaky
And the reason so aluminum cans are recyclable or cardboard boxes are recyclable is
- [18:18]
Travis
because they're profitable, because they can monetize getting rid of.
- [18:21]
Tom Szaky
Yeah, yeah. But if I was going to recycle just things I'm looking at in your screen, like your eyeglasses, which we do. You know, we recycle almost 100 million pairs of glasses a year now. It costs more to collect and process eyeglasses than the plastic and the metal in those glasses are worth. Same with your hat, your T shirt, your microphone. I mean, the sound protection behind you, like everything, you know, 95% of stuff is like that. And so we realized that the answer was here. We need to go to companies who care about a certain waste stream. Like a producer or let's say a Nespresso who cares about coffee capsules or a staples retailer that cares about, say, something they're attached to, like pens. And if they pay whatever it really costs us to collect and process that stuff, we can set up a supply chain to go do that. And we were getting pretty good at how do we turn waste into new things. And so to answer your question, that started growing really nicely, which then made it made it possible to wind down the worm poop business as that grew. And if you zoomed out, you would have just seen the company go from 5 million to 7 million to 10 million. Not realizing that we effectively completely transformed what we started with.
- [19:27]
Travis
You were just intentionally shrinking the core SKU and while adding other SKUs that were potentially more profitable.
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Tom Szaky
Yeah. And think of it like we were, we were shrinking the idea of us selling finished goods in exchange for building services that recycled things that people wanted to see recycled.
- [19:46]
Travis
So you would charge these companies to recycle the materials that they couldn't recycle through other methods.
- [19:53]
Tom Szaky
Yeah, exactly. And that's really what has now grown to 20 countries and a large size business. Let's just take an example. Let's say you make an energy bar, right. Travis's energy bar, TC Energy. Right. And. And you're gonna package that in wrappers. Energy bar wrappers are not recyclable anywhere. Again, because they are not worth economically to do it. So I'd come to you and say, hey, dude, you know, 100% of the energy bars you put out become garbage. I can set up a platform where your consumers can collect those if they want to, and they get recycled. The bill you would pay is whatever it costs for the collection and processing minus what the resulting waste once recycled is worth. And you know, with margin. And that's what you fund. And then we still take the energy bars and, you know, they get recycled into a new thing. But the, but the business driver is that you, Travis, want to see your energy bars recycled. It's not about what we can sell energy bar plastic for. We can sell it for something, but it's not the thing that sort of, you know, wags the dog.
- [20:56]
Travis
So you are now, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to understand.
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Tom Szaky
Yeah.
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Travis
You are now basically getting paid to source materials to build new products from which you also sell and make money
- [21:08]
Tom Szaky
on something like that. But let me give you the equation. Right? Okay. So let's take something like just coffee capsules. So I happen to know numbers top of my head. Coffee capsules, let's say they're the aluminum ones, right. So an aluminum coffee capsule is 3% aluminum and 97% wet coffee by weight. Once it's used, like, that's sort of the makeup. So if we're going to, let's say, collect a bunch of coffee capsules, right. And like a chunk of them, like maybe a big garbage can, a bag of them, it probably costs about $10 to do the collection. That is, you know, picking them up from the consumer or a retailer sorting them all that. It probably then costs another $5 to take those and shred them and separate out the aluminum from the coffee and the wet coffee. We have to pay a composter to accept that's in that $5 cost. Then the only thing that is sellable there is, say, the aluminum, which in that equation is about 15 cents. So it goes $10 a collection cost, $5 a processing cost minus 15 cents of, say, aluminum value. So that would be $14.85. We add some margin to that, and that's what say an espresso pays or a Keurig or, you know, Tassimo, the capsule producer. Or maybe a retailer pays it who sells capsules, or maybe an office pays it who uses coffee capsules in their system. Or a consumer, what someone, you know, has to pay that bill. So the output is. Has some value. But I just want to put the proportionality right, that it's usually like a subsidy or, you know, we're about to recycle our billionth cigarette buttigieg. Cigarette butts, we're almost at a billion. Yeah. Having been collected and recycled. So take a cigarette butt, right? It's made from ash tobacco paper, and the filter is cellulose acetate, a type of plastic. In fact, in your eyeglasses, the frame is cellulose acetate. It's the same plastic as an example. So again, cigarette butts, expensive to collect. Then we got to shred them, clean them, separate it all out. The ash tobacco paper is composted, so we have to pay a composter to do that. And the cellulose acetate, it's worth something, but it like offsets the cost by a percent, maybe two.
- [23:13]
Travis
Yeah. And then, and then you. What do you do with the materials once you've like extracted the value from them?
- [23:19]
Tom Szaky
Well, so once we have like say a pen recycled into a bunch of metal and plastic as an example, our general process for, let's say more than 90% of the volume is we sell it as a raw material to manufacturers, right. Who then take it and make a chair from it or watering can or a drainage pipe or whatever. In some cases, though, the manufacturer who's funding it says, wait a minute, I want to do something special with that waste, which we love more because it becomes intrinsically more circular. So it could be they might buy the material back from us, like pilot pens in Japan, they take the pen plastic that we recycle for them, buy it back and make it into new pens, and it creates the world's first pen from pens. Or with Asics shoes, we make a shoe from shoes right where they. Or it could be even not necessarily closed loop, like with Procter and Gamble, we collect their waste and with them for the summer Olympics, like for Tokyo and Paris and you know, soon you'll see it coming up again. We've made all the Olympic podiums from this type of waste. So it could be. Or with Kiehl's like a cosmetic store, we in Korea, we take the Kiehl's cosmetic packaging and make it into the store fixtures. And that's maybe about 10% of the volume is when the stakeholder funding says, hey, wait a minute, I want to direct that waste in some cool way.
- [24:33]
Travis
Dude, this is awesome, man. This is why I love this, why I love entrepreneurs. I love, I love that you were able to take the, just the, the initial philosophy that you came into it with when you were 19, 20, just being like, hey, why, how, why, how come people are only giving and being philanthropic after they already make their money? And is there a way that we can potentially like do good and do well at the same time? And then starting the fertilizer and then, and then being nimble enough to recognize that this was not going to be a sustainable business long term? Dude, I'm just, I'm a, I'm a big fan, bro. You've earned a new fan. So I appreciate the work that you're putting out into the world. Where can people go to get more from you, man?
- [25:12]
Tom Szaky
Yeah. So our website is terracycle.com. check out lots of information there. You can also find me on LinkedIn if you want to get in touch with me. But those are two great starting points. And I would say one thing, if you go to our website, there's a lot of free services, right? This is free because companies are funding them. Take advantage of those before you use any of our paid services, right? So first look at all the free stuff we offer. And then if you can't find something free, then maybe consider buying one of the services.
- [25:38]
Travis
Terracycle.com that's T E R R A Terra Cycle. C Y c l e terracycle.com or@terracycle, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. Man, seriously, this is one of my, one of my favorite episodes in a long time. Dude, this is really cool to. To learn about this story time. I appreciate you taking the time. I know you're a busy guy. Better not take that for granted. Everybody else tuning in, remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems with money in the bank. So let's start there here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you next time. Peace.