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You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by GoHighLevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis. What's going on everybody? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast where it's our mission to help you make more money. Today on the show I have an old friend of mine, Chris Hunter. If you grew up in the the let's call it 2000s, you started hanging out, partying, you might remember this drink called Four Loko. Well, Chris is the founder, is one of the co founders of 4Loko which is still in existence today. They own a bunch of other drink companies that you probably didn't even realize were from the Four Loko brand. But then he took a hard pivot a few years back and, and acquired a small company called Koia Protein, is a plant based protein company and now has expanded that into a multi 9 figure in annual revenue business. You've seen their protein, their vegetarian protein drinks in Starbucks across the country and probably more places than that. So in terms of somebody who knows how to make a little bit of money, knows how to start and scale legitimate businesses, Chris is definitely one of those guys. Chris, what's up man? Welcome back to the show.
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C
Good to see you. Thanks for having me back.
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B
So dude, catch me up on koia. What's been going on the last couple. I know it's been probably two, three years since we've done an episode on the show. So catch me up. How's everything been going? What you guys focusing on these days?
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C
Yeah, gosh, it's about two years ago because I launched the book right at that time.
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B
That's right, yeah.
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C
What's gone on in Koya since then? All right, so at that time we were a refrigerated beverage company so everything we did was perishable, sold in the produce section of retailers. And Starbucks, as you mentioned, 35,000 retailers across the country and we, we were talking to our and listening to our customers at the time. And there were two requests. One was how do we buy this in bulk because we sell single bottles and how do we get this delivered? And neither of those are really doable, at least profitably with a refrigerated beverage. So we pivoted and launched a shelf stable line or portfolio of products which is our nutrition shakes which are, are up on Amazon and top 20 brand in protein. We launched a kids line, we launched protein powder and then we launched an Elite. We have a line that's called Elite, that's our higher protein line and we launched a shelf stable version of that. So that was kind of the, the past, let's call it 18 months, the last six months we've been working on a lot of exciting stuff in innovation in protein. You know, like currently protein is everything to everybody.
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B
Right? Yeah. As it, as it should be though. You know what I mean?
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C
It should be. We're happy that, that this macro is having its, it's always had its moment, but is, is, is at peak, you know.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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C
And specifically for females, right. Because we've talked to females and targeted females as our, as our core audience since day one. But 10 years ago that was very counter intuitive and now it's really a differentiation point for us. But anyways, the point is technology around protein is continuing to evolve and so there's the emergence of what's called clear protein. Because think about, traditionally protein is always like a milky substance, right. Whether it's in a smoothie or, or ready to drink product like ours. There's a way to break down protein further into like the amino acids and you can create now like a more refreshing like thinner type drink. So we launched a protein soda which is, which is pretty fun and exciting. It has prebiotic fiber in it like the poppies and ollipops of the world. But it also has the benefit of 10 grams of protein and drinks like a soda.
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B
Wow.
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C
We're, we're software that's, that's currently out or. Yeah. So we launched it on TikTok shops. Maybe. I didn't see that months ago. Yeah. And we, we sold out relatively quickly. Then we were working with Target, we did a, a, an exclusive flavor, Golden Whip, which is like a pineapple, you know, Dull whip. Okay.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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C
Along with our Rocket Freeze, which is like, you know, the bomb pop type.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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C
So we're, we're doing a lto limited time distribution there. That's ending next week and then we'll relaunch it on our D2C TikTok shops, Amazon and all that in the. In the coming month. So that's been fun and exciting and kind of a new frontier of protein. And it's even this into, like a protein water. So think of, like, protein. You know, everyone thinks of it for fitness and muscle building, but no one really wants to drink protein at the point of like, in mid run, in mid exercise, never.
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B
Or protein water.
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C
Will you allow you to do that? Think of it like a hydration drink with protein. And it's like, okay, kind of a unique angle. So. Yeah, a lot's been going on, man, but that's. That's the newest innovation.
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B
Yeah, just a couple of things since we last. A couple. Yeah, just like, you know, changed the complete face of the business, Opened new distribution channels, invented new products, launched them, sold a bunch of them. Yeah, just a couple of things. Your, Your ability, Chris, to. To take. To take something that's like a small concept and then scale it to the level that you'll be able to do now multiple times over and in different categories of the beverage industry. Right. Like starting with something that's alcoholic and then moving into something that's the. The pinnacle of. Of what we would call healthy
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C
is.
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Is. Do you believe that you could do this with anything in that category? Is. Is it. Is it because you. You have the ability to sort of see the timing in the market and understand that, hey. That there might be potentially need for this type of a product? Or like, how do you make decisions around what you view as worthy of your time to pursue and try to scale into this, you know, billion dollar company?
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C
Yeah. So I think, first, I think that this is a realization I had as I've. As I've aged, which is what we're inherently good at is not always obvious to us because we only know it as something that we're. We inherently do, and we don't realize that it's special or different than most other people.
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B
Right.
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C
And so it took time for me to understand that one of the things I think I'm inherently good at is. Is breaking things down to their simplest and most digestible factor or. Or way to verbalize or. Or understand. Right. And that could be problems, but in this case, it's brands. So when you simplify Four Loko, it was high alcohol with caffeine. Right. When you simplify Koi, it was delicious plant protein. And so, like, when I've seen those opportunities and just kind of like, I think I've seen those opportunities because I've just remained an curious Participant in the category like I like walking grocery store aisles. I always pay attention to the new things that are seem to be trending whether it's on social or just by talking to people. I'll give you an example. You know, creatine, right. Is something that when I was younger was only taken by men that were trying to bulk up and women would.
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B
Bodybuilders. Yeah, exactly.
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C
A woman would never touch creatine. Well, I noticed probably 12 months ago that there just seemed to be this rebranding of. Of creatine. There's a rebranding of nicotine right now. Right, but rebranding of creatine. And it seemed to be around cognitive health and it seemed to be really being adopted by women, which was fascinating. And so we quickly.
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C
We started to explore like hey, how do we add creatine into one of our drinks now that it's acceptable to. To women? And so we launched a elite with creatine line at Publix down here in Florida. It's performing really well and, and we were one of the first, if not the first to really do that. And so it's, it was, it's really just a bit of like paying attention, trusting intuition. But that like 20 years experience of paying attention is what makes it so simple, I guess.
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B
Yeah, yeah, it's a, like there's. For an untrained eye it would just look like another trend because I, because like that and, and, and it's the know how too. Right? Like I, I've thought about that a bunch of times with the resurgence of creatine and, and how useful and effective it is for multiple parts of your health. And I think that now it's no longer vilified for bulking. And it's, it, it's just, it's just like this. I think the, the information or the knowledge is just more ubiquitous and so it is easier for a female to, to tune into their favorite podcast and hear this doctor talk about how creatine is never going to make them look like they, it's not going to give you an Adam's apple and you know what I mean? Like it's not that, that's, that's steroids, that's not creatine. Creatine is actually really, really helpful for multiple things in terms of like recovery and brain health and things like that. And so I've thought about that. Like why is there not a. I literally told my wife this probably like two months ago. I was like why is there not a protein drink on the market that has creatine in it? Like why do I always have to add creatine into my protein? Because I'm going to take both of them at the same time. But the difference is I can't do anything about it. I mean like, I mean obviously I could do something about it but the obstacles in the way for me to be able to try to solve that type of a problem are essentially non
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C
existent to one side of it which is a really interesting and insightful view. And then the other side of it, which, which I think is you know, it's about finding that middle path. The other side of it is inherently and traditionally creatine has been very difficult to keep stable in liquids. That's why you haven't seen teen drinks in the past. And so a quick reaction could be hey, your comment, oh, why isn't there this. And the quick reaction from somebody who has a lot of historical insight could be oh well it can't be done because you can't keep it stable in, in beverages. Right? Dismiss it. Then we, then we miss it. And instead with through some curiosity we talked to you know, our product formulator, hey, are there any ways to actually do this? And we found out well there have been advancements in that technology and there are ways to keep it stable in, in beverages or in liquids. And hey, we actually do have a benefit for this because since we're refrigerated that actually allows us to get better integrity of creatine in the liquid rather than if we were a shelf stable drink that has to go through different products. So anyways the, the point is like they're either I can't do anything about it or not with a lot of obstacles or hey, I know too much, it's just not possible. Can both be difficult. Finding that curiosity middle road is. Has been a valuable to me.
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B
Yeah yeah no kidding. I would say very, very valuable is the beverage space. Do you like you in your, in your mind if you were starting over completely you didn't have like you knew you, you have the knowledge that you have now but not necessarily the decades of experience and you know, capital or access to capital to get something started. Is the beverage space something that you think is, is worthy of more attention? I guess. Like, is it, it seems to me like it's a very hyper competitive industry with really slim margins with, you know, added logistical difficulties in terms of getting the product to the end user. Even what you're talking about creating a new shelf, stable product so we can go direct consumer instead of going to retail shelves where we've traditionally gone in the past. It seems like there's a lot of complications in that space in general, but companies like yours can start every day and blow up. And there's been several beverages, I think that have done that recently, but that is not at all an indicator of how many of them have been started that we've never heard of because they just couldn't make it work. What makes it work? Like how, how do you like, is it, is it capital? Like, do you have to have a lot of money in the bank to be able to withstand the winter before you get paid on your net 180 terms or whatever retail is paying these days? Like how does, how does that industry work?
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C
Look, beverage is not, definitely not for the faint of heart. I mean it's a, it's a blood sport. Like the, the numbers in terms of, to your, to your earlier point, brands started versus brands that even are around three years from, from inception are, are staggering. And so I think if you know those stats, you probably wouldn't jump into it. But the rewards are big and as, as highlighted by some of the recent exits and things like that. So it's a high stakes game. It's not easy. But I guess on the flip side, what is right, I mean the grass is always greener. I could look at somebody scaling a tech app or yeah, I don't know, something else and say, oh, it'd be so easy without physical distribution. I'm sure there's complications over there too. So I mean, I think the first question is like, are you cut out to be an entrepreneur and are you ready for what always takes longer and is harder and takes more money than you anticipate it? In terms of what works in beverage, the answer is I don't know. You would think, but I don't because I have a tale of two different, you know, tapes, as they say, like four loco. We didn't raise money because no one would give us money. And, and we were on the verge of going out of business. This is way back in 2005, right? We were on the verge of going out of business for the first Two years until we innovated. And when we hit on Four Loko, we didn't have to do any marketing. We literally had to just get the product out there. And that's a rare. And the margins were good and all this stuff and that's a rare occurrence. I understand how rare it is now. It probably jaded my view of the world because I assume that's how you could do it.
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Sure.
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C
Koia is the opposite where we had to raise a lot of money and we weren't profitable for eight years. I mean it was a really long burn until we vertically integrated, bought our own manufacturing facility, focused on flipping to profitability. And you know, neither is right or wrong. It's just like I, I feel like the first step is always the key. Right. You can't chart the path and it's good to, it's good to think it through and what you'd ideally want to do. But we're in the game and you're making zigs and zags as you need to based on the current reality. And so the answer is I don't know what works. I know what has worked and hasn't worked for me. And, and oddly enough, it's been the exact opposite twice.
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Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mobile.com why? Why is this seemingly the category that most like big personal brands enter? It seem like whenever I think about a lot of the top companies started by personal brands in the last five, 10 years, it's like if you got Casamigos and George Clooney, you got Teramana and the Rock. And then the Rock also did Zoa, his energy drink line. And then you got Logan, Paul and KSI with prime and like why, why is the beverage category something that a lot of these people with massive followings enter?
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C
I mean beverages, at least for me is sexy because you're really entering somebody's like daily life, right? I mean you consume beverages or we, we as people consume beverages habitually and regularly and daily. And I think that is, is interesting. They're high velocity categories. People are really interested and seem open to trying new beverages. I mean, think about the opposite. I'll try to think of the first. Think about starting like a spices brand or something, right? Like a, like, I mean, I don't know, what do people buy one of those every six months at best? Like, yeah, you know, beverage is just a fast turn, high velocity category. I also think these outsized returns that you hear of either historically with Vitamin Water or Casamigos or more recently with, you know, Poppy or whoever, like those are big headlines that draw people into it. And so I would imagine from a celebrity perspective, I don't know, but I would imagine like their thought is if I'm going to put my brand behind something, let's make it high, you know?
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Yeah, sure, yeah. And a huge total addressable market because it's basically everybody. Yeah, it's like everybody drinks stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah. How do you view the intersection of a personal brand with a successful business? You've obviously taken the majority of your career focusing on building real businesses and everyone. Like there's sometimes man, where like I have people on my show and I'm like, these are people who just deserve more attention than like online, than a lot of the quote unquote influencers who are out there teaching business, who have basically only ever had a business where they teach business. You know what I mean? They haven't actually done the thing. And then I have people on the show like you who are, who are savage entrepreneurs who. I'm just like, man, I wish like more, I wish more people would follow your stuff and, and, and learn from Chris rather than learning from, you know, XYZ Guru online. How do, how do you view those two activities? Are you concerned or thinking about personal branding at all? Is that something that matters to you or, or, and should it?
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C
Well, I think that one of the reasons you may see less people that are actually building companies with big, you know, personal brands online is because they're busy actually building companies. And, and what I've, I was just having this conversation yesterday. Some of the people who are successful at doing both, you realize like they have backfilled themselves when with most operational decisions in their business to allow them to build their personal brand or the people that have a huge personal brand and leverage it in, into launching a brand, let's say a beverage. Usually the ones that are successful have an operational team. I'll give you like, you know, like prime as an example. You know, Logan Paul has a huge audience but Congo Brands is the operational, you know, machine behind that. And so I feel like for me, the reason I don't have more content or worry about building my more brand, my personal brand, more or bigger is because I haven't backfilled myself. I'm still really deep in operations. For better or worse. I don't know if that's good or bad. I also think that it's interesting timing. I mean, I'm, I'm 47 now, so I'm probably the last, you know, generation of like entrepreneurs that like, have built brands without having a personal brand or. Yeah, so a lot of these guys are, and women are building brands publicly now, which I think is amazing. It's just a different, it's just a different game that I haven't had to play well.
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And it's kind of the question of like, what do you like to do? And you strike me as a guy who likes to build businesses rather than talk about building businesses as much. You know what I mean? And I think some people prefer talking about it.
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C
I think that, yeah, I think that's probably a good point. I mean, like, as an example, when I wrote that my book, I, I, you know, the, the, the publishing house was like, are you thinking of doing like a how to book, like how to launch better? And I, even though I guess by the standards of the brands about, I can consider myself an exit, an expert, I don't consider myself the person to tell everybody how to do it. I can share my stories. Right, no problem. But so I guess to your point, like, I don't even feel comfortable like being out there saying, here's how you should do things that I've successfully done. Right. Which is baffling to me that people are out there saying, here's how you
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B
should do things that they have that I've never done. Yeah, exactly. Well, dude, I appreciate you taking the time, Chris. I know you're a really busy dude. Always enjoy spending time with you. I'm thoroughly impressed by you and all the work that you've accomplished in this world and then also remaining to be. We talked, I think a lot actually on the last podcast episode that we did about parenting and about being a husband and balancing all of those things while building, you know, multiple nine figure brands over the course of a couple of decades. So I appreciate you very much in the work that you do in the world. Where can people go to to get more from you and what you're doing?
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C
I mean, I have a small, a presence on LinkedIn. I have a presence on Instagram, but they're small. Like I'm not that active in any of them. So I those are probably the best two places. Anyone who's who's curious about my story, the best place to learn it is is on my book, in my book or in my audiobook, which is Blackout Punch and Entrepreneurs Journey From Chaos to Clarity. Yeah, that's this is probably the best place.
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Love it. Chris, I appreciate you for taking the time, man. Always. Instagram is at underscore Christopher Hunter Underscore over on Instagram. Go check out some of the stuff that Chris is posting. He does post, just not as much as I want him to post because I want to learn more from him. But that's a conversation for another day. Chris, I appreciate you man. Everybody else listening. Remember, money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of your problems when you got some money in the bank. So let's start there. Here on the Travis Makes Money podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace.
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