← Travis Makes Money
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- [00:01]
Sponsor Voice
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- [00:29]
Travis
You're listening to the Travis Makes Money podcast presented by gohighlevel.com for a free 30 day trial of the best all in one digital marketing software tool on the planet, just go to gohighlevel.com travis what's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the show. This episode is just me, you and the mic. And today we're answering a question, a specific question that came in recently from somebody who follows me on Instagram. And by the way, you can ask whatever questions you want that we can tackle in future episodes. Just shoot me a DM at travischapel over on Instagram or shoot me an email travisravishapple.com either way, we'll get to the question eventually. And this one came in from one of the listeners, Amber. She says, how do you set boundaries with your clients who become your friends, and how do you make genuine friendships in entrepreneurship? So, so let's tackle that, tackle that first one. And this one admittedly is really for entrepreneurs out there and might even be more applicable for those of you who are in the knowledge sharing world, the expert world. So if you're, if you sell coaching or courses or communities, masterminds, consulting services, things like that. But I'm going to try to my best to answer it for other contexts as well because I think it's helpful. I remember when I first got started, I was at this, this mastermind. If you don't know what a mastermind is, it's basically it's a group of people getting together, shared knowledge and experience. And in this context, usually they're paid groups. And there's schools of thought on whether or not paid groups are better than free groups and whatever. But I've always found paid groups to bring their own level of value that free groups can't, just because all the people who are there paid to be there. So it doesn't necessarily mean that, it doesn't necessarily mean that everybody's on the same level, but it does mean that everybody is equally invested in getting the result. So just bottom line, when you pay, you pay attention. So when there's other People who are there, who've also invested a good amount of money to be there, they're more likely to take the connections that they gain from that group or the, their willingness to share with that group. They're much more likely to take those things seriously rather than somebody who's just going to another free community event or a chamber of commerce meeting or something like that. So I've always found tremendous value in jumping into these types of groups, even when the membership fee is objectively, really high. So I was at this Mastermind and this guy who's really well known in the space, top podcaster. If I said his name, a lot of you listening would know who I'm talking about. He was, he was speaking to this, to this Mastermind group that I was in, and he mentioned something about always keeping a separation between you and your clients because he wanted to maintain this, this perception of celebrity in order to make sure that they continue to pay you. And even at that time, which was like beginning stages entrepreneurship, for me, this was like the first real Mastermind ever joined. Even at the time, it didn't resonate with me. Even at the time, I was like, that seems like kind of dangerous advice to some degree. And I get it from a, from a business context, but it does, it, it feels, it feels wrong to me. And I've. And I've learned to sort of trust my intuition in of those, in some of those worlds. And so for, for him, it was like, try to keep people, you know, at an arm's length. And I got into the knowledge business and the community building business to be helpful, not to just make a bunch of money. So now I've been doing this for a while, you know, I can see exactly where it's coming from because when people become close enough friends through working with you, they tend to just want a bunch more free stuff. And it feels weird when they pay you for your time because you're friends. But also, this group costs money to, for me to put on, so you'd still have to pay to be in the group. And it feels kind of weird to charge them for it almost. So I get what he's saying, but here's kind of how I look at it now, okay? And this goes for any entrepreneur that makes friends with clients, even if that means you're, you know, a service technician and you're taking care of their plumbing, or you're fixing their car, or you're coaching them on their mindset, or you have the business coaching, you know, business or something like that. So here's some. Here's some thoughts that I have about this. Okay, first off, set the culture. Culture's on you as the leader of your business. And in my actions, my culture, I try to push the idea that friends should be willing to support each other's ventures. That, you know, people's initial inclination is to ask for free stuff from a friend who owns a place. You know, it's like, oh, well, my buddy owns this restaurant, so let's go there and drink for free, or let's go there and eat for free. And I try to push back against that narrative. And so whenever I'm building groups like this, it's try not to be the one that just goes into the group and asks for a bunch of discounts and free stuff and things like that. Set the culture where it is a good thing as a friend to support another friend's business, because there's not a lot of people who. This episode of the show is brought to you by Mars Men. So, look, guys, I don't know if everybody listening knows this, but a couple years ago, I was diagnosed with cancer. And around that time, I also noticed that my testosterone levels were dropping like crazy. 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- [08:02]
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- [08:29]
Travis
month Support somebody's business. You know, you see, you see this, even online anecdotally you see this happen where somebody announces something like, like I just got accepted into this master's program at this university, you know. And then the comments are filled with people you know being like, oh, what an amazing achievement. This is so awesome. Or you got this degree. Wow, congratulations. Or you got this promotion at work. Wow, cool. That's great. And then somebody shares that they're starting a business and it's like crickets. There's probably a couple reasons for that. First off, there's probably people who are just jealous that that person had the courage to start a business because they've been wanting to for a really long time and they haven't had the courage themselves to do it. So they initially get this feeling of jealousy and resentment that they're gonna go chase their dreams. And that person maybe never had the courage to go chase their dreams. But then it's also just like this, this feeling of like, even the people who love them and want to see them be successful, they're like, oh, all right. Well, I mean, did you, did you, did you come up with a business plan? Did you think this through a little bit? You know, did, did you talk this through with your, your parents or like, man, I, I hope you know what you're doing, you know what I mean? It's just this kind of a generic attitude of complacency when people start businesses. So especially as entrepreneurs or business owners, if you're right now, and that's you, you know how difficult it is to have the courage to commit to doing this brand new project and to go chase your dreams so support other people when they are also doing those things as much as you possibly can. And I'm not suggesting that you go buy somebody's $25,000 coaching program just to support them, okay? But if, you know, if they have a merch business or a clothing line or they have a, they open up a, you know, a smoothie acai bowl shop, hint, hint, then go buy their stuff, go support them, pay full price, be will willing to pay more than full price, pay extra money just to be there and be a part of it and to support from that type of a position, because entrepreneurs need that type of support. So whenever I'm the leader of a group like that or I have coaching clients or something like that, that tends to be the culture that I try to set is that friends pay full price for friends stuff. They don't ask for free stuff and discounts all the time. They want their friends to be successful. So set the culture, number one. Number two, think more like a therapist. You know, therapists are really good at doing this. That's why they're expensive, is that they're, they're professionals. But even they've been working for somebody for a long time. They know the difference between billable hours and friendship time. And most of them keep those things completely separate. So it means they're not friends with their clients. And, and that's a little bit of a different world. And obviously this is not what we're talking about here, but it helps to be, to think about it more in that context to be like, look, if we're gon to, if we're going to break this down and we're going to enter into this realm or we're going to talk about this system that I created from scratch to help people achieve this end result, if we're going to do that, then that's something that I get paid to do. And, and, and so we can't, you know, I'm not just going to jump on 43 free coaching calls for you, especially if you're not even going to do the work to, to make sure that it actually gets done. So, so think a little bit more like a therapist in that regard. Try to make sure that you have at least separations for those things. Next, have an AS model that lets people graduate from you. So in this space, obviously there, everybody talks about the Ascension model. So, you know, you have free stuff, you have free content, you give all that for free. And then you have sort of like some, you know, maybe a mini course or you have a book, you have these low ticket items that are anywhere from a dollar to a hundred bucks. And you have maybe like mid ticket of, you know, a hundred bucks to a thousand bucks, something like that. And you get into high ticket, you have a thousand bucks to 5,000 bucks. Then you have this back end thing that's, you know, 5,000 to 25,000, whatever. And that's sort of like your Ascension mod. What I noticed though, when I was coming to space was that I would go to these groups and it was, I would talk to people and be like, well, how long you been, you know, how'd you hear about this person? I was like, oh, like seven years ago. I saw them talk at this event. I was like, okay, so why, why are you still here? Like, they're, they're, their business metrics, didn't grow at all year over year. But they still are continuing to pay for this person. And they, they look at it almost as like they want to remain friends with this influential person. Therefore, the only way to do that is to continue paying them. And like, I just, I felt again, I felt weird about that. It was like my intuition is telling me that that's strange. The fact that you're like, this is year five and you're still basically the same version of yourself that you were when you started year one like this. There's something broken here. This program isn't working, or you're not working the program. Why are you just continuing to pay for it? And it was like dawned on me like, oh, because that person who's running this group basically cut you out of their lives if you stopped paying them. And that is something that I just fundamentally on a human level disagree with. Have an essential model that allows people to graduate from you, where it's like, okay, you've learned everything that you possibly can from me. Now it's time to go learn this thing from this other person and then don't burn the bridges with those people just because they stopped paying you. Be an actual kind, caring, good person and you'll find that it actually leads to more business than it would have the other way around. And there's two examples that I could think of of with this one based. So there's this group that I joined a little while back. It was called the 100 million mastermind. I believe it still exists to this day. And it was run by a friend of mine, Dan Fleishman, and at the time his business partner, Joel Marion. Joel's since left the group. I think Dan runs it completely on his own now, if I'm not mistaken. But it was a, it was a hundred thousand dollars a year to be a part of this mastermind group. And it was a massive, massive risk for me at the time. I did not have that type of money to just drop on a mastermind group. But I also knew that, you know, sometimes in business you have to make the decisions of the person that you're trying to become rather than the person that you currently are if you really are intending to become that level of person. So I took this big risk, jumped in this group and it was great. And I had, I ended up joining, I ended up doing it a second year. I renewed for another 100 grand the second year. And there was, in the context of that group, there was another person in that group who ran his own masterminds. He had his own, you know, mastermind type business and got to know that guy like fairly well through throughout, you know, these different group meetups and activities and things like that. And I remember one time we were having a conversation and he was, and I knew this, he was actively trying to get me to jump into his mastermind, which I knew and I, and I knew that was, you know, something he was thinking about. But his Mastermind was like 40 grand a year or something like that. And so for me I was like, look, I'm already like triple what my budget was for masterminds for the year, like 100 grand in on this one. Like I can't, like there's, there's no more money do another group, especially another really high ticket group like that. And I remember while we're sitting there and this was like probably one of the last times I ever talked to this guy because it just turned me off so much to him as a person. He, he was like, hey, I love the stuff that you're doing. I think you're really good at what you do. I could send you so much business if you would just join my group. And in my mind I was like, isn't that, isn't that interesting? Isn't that like the opposite of your job for your group? You know what I'm saying? If there's somebody in your group that's providing a lesser quality service but you're going to promote their stuff just because they're paying you, versus telling people in your group about the thing that I do because I'm just better at it and they would have a better experience and I'd actually deliver the results they're looking for. But you're not willing to recommend me to them because I'm not paying you money that it felt so weird to me. And then I, I ended up talking to a friend of mine who was actually in that group and then went out of that group and surprise, surprise, that person basically stopped responding to anything that my buddy was sending over to him as soon as he stopped paying. And it was like, yeah, if you're going to treat people like this, like this is the opposite of how I view relationships. It is not about the transaction. And, and frankly, if, if you're the head of a mastermind group like that or head of a community like that, your entire community is trusting you to give them the best quality stuff and you're not giving them the best quality stuff. You're only giving the stuff that other people are willing to pay you to give to those people. It's, it's just this weird like it felt super mlme very scammy and it just turned me off to all. Not his whole group for sure, but also to him as a person. And it was just like, bro, if you, if like if that guy would have approached that situation differently and been like, hey man, look, I can't like have you come speak in this group because I have somebody in the group who does something very similar to what you do. And I would wouldn't want to like publicly facing, you know, come out and, and promote all your stuff.
- [17:23]
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- [17:30]
Travis
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- [18:19]
Travis
Them but there there's a couple people in the group that I think could really benefit from your stuff. Let me just make a couple introductions and then if those people ended up hiring me for my services and things, I might have. I might have been more than willing to be like, hey, I've already made money from a couple people that you sent over. Sure, here's the, you know, the admission fee to be in your group so that I can have more opportunities to, you know, get up on stage at your next group, something like that, and share more about what I'm working on and maybe I'll get some more business from that. But it's like it immediately taught me that the only way to view this relationship is a transactional relationship. That's the only thing I'll ever gain from this, is that you only want the transaction. And if I can first meet you and give you the money that you want, then I might be able to recoup some of that because I have the privilege of getting referrals from you. And yeah, it just sat so wrong with me me that I haven't really talked to this person since. And surprise, surprise, this person ended up having a big falling out with a lot of the other people that I liked in that world anyway, so it was easier for me to cut them out of my circles and then con contrast that with the, with Dan Fleishman, the, the owner of this other mastermind that I was a part of that I spent, you know, good money being in. I stopped that group in2022. I want to say maybe 2023, but it's been a few years now since I've not been in that group. And I still hear from that guy like once a month from, from, from Dan. Like, he still sends me people, he still sends me to referrals. He still asked me to be on his podcast. He still invites me to random private Dinners with really cool people. And he. Because he views it as a relationship, and he views it much more relationally, much less transactionally. However, because of that, we. We have also been able to do a much higher volume of transactions together because that's how he views the relationship. So don't treat people like numbers because people aren't numbers. Even though you might be in a knowledge business, it does not mean that you have to treat people only like their transactions or else that's gonna be. The only people that were mean in your life are transactional takers. And I don't know about you guys, but if I want to choose a network of people, I'm gonna choose a network of givers who think relationally rather than a group of takers who think transact. So if you are in that type of a position, do your best to, you know, set the ground rules from the beginning, set the culture from the beginning. This is a group of givers and that you should be willing to support your friends. And so even if we become friends, if you want to remain in these groups, I have real costs associated with this. I have real value that we give out in this, and I believe it's 100% worth it. So if you want to remain in these groups, you got to pay the fee to be a part of these groups. But that does not mean that if you choose this year to not pay the fee, that does not mean that next week I'm going to just ignore your text because you're no longer in my group and you're not a part of my life life anymore. That's just my philosophy on friendships and relationships. And it's worked out much, much better for me. I think over the long term. I'm. Not to mention I just feel better about myself. Like, like you, you, you feel like this, this almost better feeling of contribution when you know the week after somebody stops paying you, but they reach out and go like, hey, I came across this thing. I was wondering if you knew anybody. It's like, oh, yeah, cool. Like we have a level of trust with us now where I know that you're going to take this relationship seriously. Yeah, let me make you a quick intro because we actually still have a friendship and relationship from this. So think more like a, like have separation between. This is like a friendship activity versus this is like a part of this group that we're paying for here. So you can't just like come be a part of it because all these other people are paying a lot of money to be here. So think more like a therapist and then have an essential model that allows people to graduate from you to, that allows people to outgrow you if they are in a position to be able to do so. And that, by the way, is a great case scenario. You should want people if you're in this type of a business, you should want people that are even growing beyond your ability because that means you did something right. It means you were actually helpful. And if you remain helpful even after they stop paying you, then they'll probably remember you as a very good, useful person in their, in their life and will probably continue to send you business in the future and have good things to say about you. And it goes back to what I said in the last episode that I recorded, which was basically, it's always really good to have a bunch of high quality people conspiring for your good in this world and, and wanting to eagerly support you because you always supported them. So think about, think about it. You know, I know from a business perspective you have to understand your numbers, but try your best not to look at people as numbers because they're not, they're people. So hopefully that was helpful for you, Amber, and for anybody else who's listening who might be in this type of a business. And that is it for this episode of the show. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll catch you guys on the next episode. Peace.
- [23:01]
Sponsor Voice
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