TMF PREVIEW | Make Friends with Chris Voss

Summary

Podcast Summary: Travis Makes Money

Episode: TMF PREVIEW | Make Friends with Chris Voss
Date: May 20, 2026
Host: Travis Chappell
Guest: Chris Voss

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Episode Overview

In this special preview episode, Travis Chappell shares a highlight reel from his main show, "Travis Makes Friends," featuring world-renowned negotiation expert Chris Voss. The conversation dives deep into the art of negotiation, emphasizing how small mindset and language shifts can foster more effective, authentic connections—whether in business, friendships, or everyday situations. Chris unpacks his signature negotiation philosophies, explains actionable tactics, and shares real-world anecdotes that make his advice both relatable and practical.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

"Forget Yes, Go for No": Rethinking Persuasion

[01:13–04:55]

• Yes Fatigue & Defensive Reactions:
  Chris explains that the word "yes" is often weaponized in sales or negotiations, leaving people skeptical and anxious.

  “Everybody's been bamboozled with yes... people are, yes, battered. Which means... there's going to be a negative impact because they were already cheated by yes.” — Chris Voss [01:14]

• Why 'No' Works:
  The act of saying “no” gives people a sense of control and safety, which lowers their guard and makes them more receptive.

  “The stupid thing is they've taught themselves that saying no protects them... makes them feel safe and protected, makes them listen, helps them think things through.” — Chris Voss [01:34]

• Practical 'No-oriented' Questions:
  Asking “Is now a bad time to talk?” instead of “Do you have a minute?” is more effective, as it respects the other person's autonomy.

  "Now the reason why they're all doing that is... they started experimenting with... is no-oriented questions... and everything sped up with their family and their friends." — Chris Voss [02:58]

• Everyday Example:
  Chris shares a story about ordering food with his partner to illustrate using "no-oriented" language for smoother outcomes.

  “Are you against ordering Cheesecake Factory? And she goes, no. And we order right away.” — Chris Voss [04:55]

The Power of “Catastrophizing” to Reframe Requests

[04:58–09:12]

• Setting Expectations Lower to Get a Yes:
  Chris advocates for foreshadowing your ask as being much worse than it is (“I’m gonna ruin your day...”), so the request feels like a relief.

  “If I got an ask, I'm not going to tell you what the ask is. I'm gonna tell you I got a horrible thing to ask. I'm gonna ruin your day. You're gonna hate me... Then from every moment on, it gets easier. So then my ask is a relief.” — Chris Voss [07:08]

• Ethics in Persuasion:
  Chris discusses the importance of genuine intent, warning against repeated manipulation, as it erodes trust.

  “If I use great emotional intelligence to exploit you... after the second or third time I've done that, you'll never trust me again.” — Chris Voss [08:18]

• Practical Anecdotes:
  Chris provides stories from work and travel (e.g., asking for days off or upgrades), demonstrating how this tactic disarms gatekeepers and leads to better outcomes.

  “So she got to have some time off. She goes into her boss and she says, you're going to hate me for what I'm about to ask you. He goes, you're quitting? She goes, no, I just. I need two days off. He goes, okay, fine, take two days.” — Chris Voss [08:55]

Human Connection as the Foundation for Negotiation

[09:24–14:59]

• Breaking People Out of Autopilot:
  Travis and Chris discuss how customer service workers often operate on autopilot due to frequent negative experiences, and how a novel, empathetic approach can “shift” the dynamic.

  “If you can just even just be a little bit different when you approach them, it automatically shifts them out of their normal responses...” — Travis Chappell [09:42]

• Building Positive Relationships for Future Value:
  Negotiating so both parties leave happy is vital for long-term collaboration and keeps options open for the future.

  “We can have a situation where we all leave happy and that's always going to be the best situation. Again, like you said, for future deals and stuff.” — Travis Chappell [12:41]

• Win-Win vs. Combative Styles:
  Chris and Travis critique the “win-lose” sales mindset, advocating for authenticity, ethics, and mutual benefit.

  “You compound somebody into submission once, you're not going to be able to pound them again.” — Chris Voss [13:23]

Preparation and Adaptability in Negotiation

[16:46–20:34]

• Preparation Matters More Than Expectations:
  Chris stresses that you don’t rise to your expectations—you fall to your level of preparation.

  “You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your preparation.” — Travis Chappell [16:46]

• Empathy as a Negotiation Tool:
  Focus on understanding the other side’s fears, concerns, and what matters most to them—this helps uncover hidden value in a deal.

  “Most of my preparation is thinking about what are your negative thoughts about me?... Those are the things that I think about in advance.” — Chris Voss [17:12]

• Flexible Mindset & Anchoring:
  Never anchor yourself so firmly to a single outcome that you overlook potentially better solutions.

  “Never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better.” — Chris Voss [18:32]

  “If it would make this deal better, then my original goal is short, and I don't want to fall short of the possibility when my aspiration was too low or wrong.” — Chris Voss [19:18]

Ethics, Authenticity, and Practice

[15:15–16:27, 21:26–end]

• Genuine Human Connection:
  Chris asserts that authenticity and keeping promises are the core of all his negotiation and communication—he doesn’t turn off his curiosity or desire to connect, even outside business.

  “My authenticity is currency. The fact that I'll keep my word is an operating principle. And if those two are part of your values, then I'm going to try to connect all the time.” — Chris Voss [15:15]

• Awareness of Manipulation:
  Chris warns against people who misuse these techniques, noting that experienced negotiators will quickly identify if someone is trying to manipulate them for selfish purposes.

  “People are trying it on me all the time and I can, I can smell what they're doing really quickly. And so I'll just, I'll stop talking to them entirely.” — Chris Voss [16:00]

• The Value of Practice:
  He stresses the value of ongoing practice—just like athletes—citing examples of professionals who continually hone their skills in a dedicated negotiation community.

  “Tiger woods, Michael Jordan, LeBron James... They practiced in order to win all the time. And so the Black Swan negotiation community is about practicing the skills.” — Chris Voss [22:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On "No"-oriented Questions:
  “Is this a bad idea? Do you disagree? Does this sound stupid to you?... this is a magic wand. This works with everybody.” — Chris Voss [01:54]

• On Catastrophizing:
  “Derek Gaunt likes to say, after I ask you this, you're gonna want to jump across the table and stab me in the eye with a pencil.” — Chris Voss [07:33]
  “I want my ask to be a relief. So since you're negative because you're human, as soon as I say I'm going to ruin your day, you imagine horrible things. Yes. Then from every moment on, it gets easier.” — Chris Voss [07:51]

• On Relationship-focused Negotiation:
  “In order for you to win, somebody else does not need to lose.” — Travis Chappell [12:41]
  “You compound somebody into submission once, you're not going to be able to pound them again. Or what happens if they won't be pounded into submission?” — Chris Voss [13:23]

• On Preparation:
  “You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your preparation.” — Travis Chappell [16:46]

• On Practice:
  “Like, one of my favorite guys. Michael Periente, lawyer here in Vegas... practicing twice a week... You want to go to Michael. And then he uses. He gets great deals on his client's behalf because he uses the same skills. He doesn't make arguments... Prosecutor's not ready for empathy. They don't know what to do with it.” — Chris Voss [21:52]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Why “No” is Better Than “Yes” in Negotiation — [01:13–04:55]
• Catastrophizing Your Ask to Get Better Results — [04:58–09:12]
• Building Positive Karma in Interactions — [10:20–12:41]
• Combative vs. Collaborative Negotiation Styles — [13:22–15:01]
• Preparation > Expectation — [16:46–18:32]
• Anchoring and Embracing Flexibility in Negotiation — [18:32–20:40]
• Ethics, Practice, and the Black Swan Community — [21:26–23:35]

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Resources & Action Steps

• Chris Voss’ Resources:
  • Never Split the Difference (Book)
  • Fight Less, Win More (Book, by Black Swan team)
  • Black Swan Negotiation Community: Practice negotiation skills for free with peers at blackswanltd.com or email [e-mail].

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Final Takeaway

Through practical tools, mindset shifts, and a heavy emphasis on empathy, Chris Voss demonstrates that superior negotiation skills are as much about building trust as getting what you want. Whether you’re aiming for a business deal or simply ordering dinner, the real win comes from creating outcomes where everyone leaves the table better off—and knowing how to practice these skills until they become second nature.

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For the full conversation and more actionable strategies, check out the full episode on Travis Makes Friends.

Transcript

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[Travis]

What's up money makers? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast. Today I'm giving you a sneak peek of this week's episode of my main show, Travis Makes Friends, a podcast all about the most valuable asset that we have in our lives, our relationships. So whether we're talking about your network, your marriage, your friendships, or even your relationship with yourself, these conversations are designed to help you grow, connect and level up in all areas. I've sat down in person with everyone from world class athletes and entertainers to bestselling authors, entrepreneurs, and even former presidents. And you're going to love the snippet from this week's episode. So take a listen and if you're feeling it, go check out the full conversation over on Travis Makes Friends. Let's get into it now. There a couple other things that I feel like I've sort of used ever since I read this. Forget yes, go for the no.

[Chris Voss]

Right?

[Travis]

Tell me about that.

[Chris Voss]

Well, again, yes has been weaponized against us so much. Would you like to stay at five star hotels for free? Would you like to travel the world? You know, all these obvious yes questions. Everybody's been bamboozled with yes. So much so that people are, yes, battered. Which means regardless of your intent, there's going to be a negative impact because they were already cheated by yes. And so you could not be bamboozling them. But you're engaging in a behavior that four other people that cheated them did. So there's a residue that, you know the old saying, once you've been bitten by a snake, you're scared of ropes. They've been bitten by the snakes already, so they're scared of yes. And yes always creates anxiety. Always, always, always, always creates anxiety. So when you go for no, the stupid thing is they've taught themselves that saying no protects them. And so a lot of people get in the automatic mode of saying no all the time because it makes them feel good to say no. So by the same reason that saying yes scares them, saying no calms them down, makes them feel safe, makes them feel safe and protected, makes them listen, helps them think things through. So you can make deals by saying is this a bad idea? Do you disagree? Does this sound stupid to you? Like we've got. Actually we finally put together a PDF of the 10 most popular yes questions switched to no.

[Travis]

Oh really?

[Chris Voss]

First, first one is instead of saying, have you got a few minutes to talk? You say it's now a bad time to talk because then you get used to the effectiveness, you know, then you get your small stakes practice and then you start like everybody that works for me in my company, they come into my office and they say it's now a bad time to talk. Now the reason why they're all doing that is not because they're trying to make me happy, not that making me happy is a bad idea. But they started experiment with is no oriented questions is what we call them no oriented questions in their personal life and everything's sped up with their family and their friends and they're like, oh wow, this is a magic wand. This works with everybody.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

And so they're, they're hit.

[Travis]

Yeah. It's not the. Do you want to get burgers tonight? It's. Are burgers completely out of the question?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. Is this a stupid idea? I mean, and one of my favorites, long time ago, a girl I was living with then when I was in la, she's working in real estate. I'm working from home, she's out working on real estate all day long. She comes in about 5ish or so. And we neither one of us cook, so we're always ordering out. And female frequently. I know this sounds like a stereotype, but they have a tendency to value quality time with their significant other more than a male will. You know, we're knuckle dragon, cave dwelling gorillas. So I'm sitting there for the last two or three hours waiting for her to walk in the door so we can order Cheesecake Factory. And I'm going to order the same thing every time. If I wanted something different, I go to a different restaurant. I'm very predictable and I, and I want to say, are you ready to order Cheesecake Factory? You know, I'm looking for a yes. She, she, she realized we've been apart all day. She needs quality time. Let's share the experience. Let's make ordering a share. And then 45 minutes later we're going to order Cheesecake Factory, you know. Right. So she walks in one night, I go, are you against ordering a Cheesecake Factory? And she goes, no. And we order right away.

[Travis]

Immediately. Worked.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, yeah.

[Travis]

What about the like, is this sort of the same line or the same idea of almost catastrophizing a situation in order to be able to get like. So you want to whatever an upgrade on a flight or hotel room or something and you, you come in and you say like I'm gonna wreck your day or I'm gonna ruin your day or something like that. Can you talk about that for a second?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting description. But yeah, we do that. I mean, if I got an ask Ignore human nature at your peril. Ignore the way a human brain is wired at your peril. Human brain is wired to be negative. So then add in. It doesn't matter how a conversation Chime

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[Chris Voss]

Chime.com disclosures starts the last impression is a lasting impression. It's how it ends. So what does that have to do with Catastrophizing the situation. If I got an ask, I'm not going to tell you what the ask is. I'm gonna tell you I got a horrible thing to ask. I'm gonna ruin your day. You're gonna hate me. Derek Gaunt likes to say, after I ask you this, you're gonna want to jump across the table and stab me in the eye with a pencil.

[Travis]

That's a great one.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. Which, you know, Derek is ahead of my training and coaching, and he's really, really smart guy. By the way, Derek and Jonathan Smith, both on my team, have just put out a book called Fight Less, Win More, which is a companion to Never Split the Difference.

[Travis]

Fight less, Win More.

[Chris Voss]

Fight Less, Win More.

[Travis]

I'll have to check that one out, too.

[Chris Voss]

It' because it just fits nicely with Never Split the Difference. But anyway, I got an ask. I want my ask to be a relief. So since you're negative because you're human, as soon as I say I'm going to ruin your day, you imagine horrible things. Yes. Then from every moment on, it gets easier. So then my ask is a relief.

[Travis]

Yeah. Right.

[Chris Voss]

And I'm doing this to you. This could be manipulative, but manipulation is going to get called out really quickly. If I take advantage of you, if I use great emotional intelligence to exploit you after the second or third time I've done that, you'll never trust me again. So I'm not going to do that on a regular basis, but when I need to, then I'm going to. Because we're trying to collaborate. I'm going to use my powers for good and not evil. There was a woman in a company one time. They were very shorthanded. They're busy as heck, and they're not giving anybody any time off. So she got to have some time off. She goes into her boss and she says, you're going to hate me for what I'm about to ask you. He goes, you're quitting? She goes, no, I just. I need two days off. He goes, okay, fine, take two days.

[Travis]

But if you just come in and ask right away, it's sort of just. I feel like there. There's just a certain segment of people that are just on autopilot. Right. They're just used to dealing with things a certain way.

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Travis]

Like the person at the airport who has to deal the. The customer. The person at the customer service desk at the airport at your gate has been dealing with all of the worst parts of the customer service job.

[Chris Voss]

Yes.

[Travis]

Day in and day out. Dealing with angry, yelling, upset people.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Inevitably about travel plans that tend to always go south. So if you can just even just be a little bit different when you approach them, it automatically, it's like, shifts them out of their just normal responses that they have. Versus saying like, do you guys have any upgrades available? You know, it's like, well, you and the 40 other people just asked me that.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, exactly.

[Travis]

Answer is no.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know, versus you coming in and having a little bit of a smile on your face. And just like, I'm so sorry, but I'm about to ruin your day with what I'm about to ask you, so are you ready? You know what I mean? And then asking them a no question instead of a yes question. Just that by itself, I feel like is a helpful reason to do it without question.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. The worst thing that happens is for a brief moment, you've made the world a better place.

[Travis]

Yeah. Right.

[Chris Voss]

And so I'm a big believer in making deposits in a positive karma bank. So I'm good with that. And the flip side is, number one, you never know what they could do for you. Number two, you never know when you're going to come back with a second ask. In any of these circumstances, the amount of ability that people have to help you if they feel like it is usually far more in excess of what you could imagine the other day. I'm using the skills. I'm in a significant relationship now, committed relationship. Wendy Starlin, she wants me to get broccoli sprouts at the grocery store. Now, thank God I ended up asking for help because the picture I got in my head is not what they really look like. And I guarantee I walked past these things two or three times and stared at them, didn't know what they were. So I'm looking around and I see the produce guy. Now you go and ask the produce guy normally, like, where's such. And so he's going to like, I don't work in the store. I just stack produce. I don't know where it is. And I go back, back to stacking it. They don't want to help you because they're not there to give directions. So I go up and I use line one from Jonathan Smith. I use, you look important, dude. Perks right up.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

You know, wow. No, no, I just, you know, but I've. I've already lifted this guy up and I go, I. I know I'm going to sound like just another stupid, lazy customer who's too lazy to find something where the broccoli sprouts. Now he could have pointed and I still would have walked past him because I know what they look like. No, no, it's okay. It's okay. And he walks me right over to him and basically almost touches him and I'm thinking like, thank God.

[Travis]

Yeah, right. I literally needed that level of help

[Chris Voss]

in this instance because I am a neanderthal 2 year old toddler who's barely autistic. Like, oh yeah. So. But, but then also the dude felt better about himself.

[Travis]

Exactly.

[Chris Voss]

You know, he felt like he got to help somebody and I got all kind of extra help that I wouldn't have got otherwise.

[Travis]

Which is the bottom line in all of these instances is that it's not about. In order for you to win, somebody else does not need to lose.

[Chris Voss]

Exactly.

[Travis]

We can have a situation where we all leave happy and that's always going to be the best situation. Again, like you said, for future deals and stuff. And I heard you in another conversation like talk about different negotiation styles or techniques or you, you mentioned that, you know, you have this sort of like heart of the deal Trump type of, you know, this is the way it is. Very hard nose and whatever. But it's just if you do deals that way you might be able to make the deals happen. It's to some degree. But then in the future it's going to make it more difficult to go back to the same people and try to make another deal out.

[Chris Voss]

It makes it very hard.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

You compound somebody into submission once, you're not going to be able to pound them again. Or what happens if they won't be pounded into submission? Yeah, if that, if that's your move.

[Travis]

Right. What else you got? Yeah, right.

[Chris Voss]

What else you got?

[Travis]

This combative nature. That. Yeah, that, that was, that was one of my biggest things. Like I, I felt like before it was always about, you know, in these, some of these sales teams and sales cultures, it was all about, you know, getting over on somebody almost where and not necessarily taking advantage of them and giving them a terrible deal. It's just that the way that they talked about it made it seem like that it was like, well, you know, either you win or your customer wins. And you know, it's very.

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Travis]

It's very. Just. I just didn't, not to overuse this word, but I didn't, I didn't vibe with it. You know, just to me it just felt, it felt incorrect. It was like that doesn't feel like. That's right. Like if this person genuinely has a problem and I genuinely Have a solution, then this should be a win win. Like, we should both come out of this feeling like that was a positive use of time. And they're happy to exchange the and for this service or this product because it's genuinely going to help them solve this problem that they're experiencing on a really deep level.

[Chris Voss]

Yes.

[Travis]

And just because I want this outcome does not mean that I have to turn into this type of a person and to be able to get that outcome right. If there's another way to achieve it, then I think that morally and ethically we should move into that direction. Like you said, where the guy leaves and it's like, even if you didn't get what you want, it's still like, all right, well, I still, at least I left that interaction making that person feel better about themselves. And that's probably never a bad thing to have.

[Chris Voss]

Right? Right. There's no downside.

[Travis]

How do you use some of these things? Or how do you think of communication in terms of friendships? Like, do you ever, do you ever turn this off? Do you ever just like, hang out? Do you ever. Like, does it affect your interpersonal relationships in any sort of a negative way?

[Chris Voss]

No, not in a negative way. I mean, because this is about being genuine with people. You know, my, my authenticity is currency. The fact that I'll keep my word is an operating principle. And if those two are part of your values, then I'm going to try to connect all the time. I mean, I'm fascinated by people. I want to know where you came from. I want to know what formed you, why you think what you think. I really like getting to know people. So no, I don't turn it off.

[Travis]

Have you, have you felt like. Have you felt like there's people who can take these things and weaponize them and use them?

[Chris Voss]

Oh, without question.

[Travis]

Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen any examples of that in your work?

[Chris Voss]

Well, people are trying it on me all the time and I can, I can smell what they're doing really quickly. And so I'll just, I'll stop talking to them entirely. And people test us all the time. You know, people call us, they want to see if they can get over on us. You know, their intention is to get me to come and speak someplace for free, but they're just trying to get over on me. And so I walk away from those people.

[Travis]

Yeah, you just cut them out. Yeah, super early. The only option.

[Chris Voss]

Well, there, you know, you could ghost somebody. You could scream at them. Ghost them. There's a whole bunch of ways to terminate the interaction. Yeah, I try to terminate if I got a terminator I do with a minimum amount of negativity.

[Travis]

What do you, what do you do when you are preparing for a negotiation? I know this. There's. You have like entire like almost worksheet in here. And you said something, I think in our last interview actually that, you know, you don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your preparation or something. Right. How do you, how do you prepare for negotiations? And do you prepare for all of them or just, you know, we have this big deal coming up, we gotta make sure we're prepped.

[Chris Voss]

I'm. I prepare thinking about really what's important to you. What are you trying to get out of this? How do you feel about it? What's your perspective on me? I'm, I'm going to think about mostly if I ask a what or a how question. It's just to help put an idea in your head or to get you to think about something. But most of my preparation is thinking about what are your negative thoughts about me? What do you garden? Are you more worried about whether or not this is going to be a long term relationship? Those are the things that I think

[Travis]

about in advance and then like, what is, what is the ultimate outcome that I want here? Because I feel like I've used this a bunch of times since, again since reading your book, where I felt comfortable with my ability to negotiate. So I would just jump on stuff and then just be okay with whatever the outcome was. But I found myself sometimes splitting the difference and just trying to come to an agreement that makes us both happy type of a thing. And then when I read this, it was like, oh, well, maybe I just need to be anchoring higher at the beginning so that I can ultimately get to the version that I really wanted. And if something better than that happens, great. But ultimately I probably am leaving with something very, very close to the outcome that I actually wanted the whole time. Even though it's less than what I initially asked for.

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Travis]

What can you explain the pro. The. The thought process behind price anchoring?

[Chris Voss]

Well, so first of all, never be so sure of what you want that you wouldn't take something better. So the more focused you are on an outcome, the more it increases the chances that you'll miss a better outcome. So I look at aspirations, pricing terms. Each one of those is being really flexible because there's stuff here I just don't know. And I'm going to want to explore this as much as possible. With you, I'm going to want to tease out of you what you're really worried about, and then I'm going to show you that I'm at least aware of it. Now, that might not change it, but you find it very reassuring, because if we have any. Any sort of real business relationship, we're going to go through a lot together.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

And what we really need to do is negotiate open lines of communication as we go through this journey. So I'm going to just try to get you at ease with me showing, like, look, I know you're worried about a lot of other people here. You know, I know you're worried about how this is going to be implemented. I know you're wondering if I'm always going to be there. I know you're wondering whether or not you could tell me about problems that you have. For me to even say that that was a series of labels about stuff that might be lurking in your brain just because you're human. And I know you're worried about whether or not I want this to be transactional. And, you know, it's wham, bam, thank you, ma', am, and I'm gone. That's. There's not enough money in it for me to do that. So these are the things that I'm going to lay out because I'm trying to figure out you're holding something back that would make this deal better. I need to get you to tell me what it is, because if it would make this deal better, then my original goal is short, and I don't want to fall short of the possibility when my aspiration was too low or wrong.

[Travis]

I see. Yeah. You don't want to put yourself in a situation where you're saying no to a better deal just because it was different than the outcome that you were expecting.

[Chris Voss]

Exactly.

[Travis]

Yeah. Because the outcome can also be determined. Like, price is just one of the levers of value.

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Travis]

There's often other things that are behind the scenes that you don't even know about. Stuff like you were mentioning interpersonal relationships or responsiveness or the structure of the deal or the time that's going to be involved from either party. There's so many other things that go into it besides just the. The cap, the value of the capital that's being injected into the deal.

[Chris Voss]

Right.

[Travis]

And if you only go in thinking that this is the ultimate goal, then you might be leaving a lot of those other value levers untouched.

[Chris Voss]

Right?

[Travis]

Yeah. Chris, I always appreciate you coming on, man. There's so many things that I pick up every time we have a conversation. You have a negotiation group now, is that right?

[Chris Voss]

We call it the Black Swan negotiation community.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

So the reality is you gotta get some practice in. Yeah, I mean, so where do you practice? Like, I got my guys out practicing with the cashiers in grocery stores, the TSA people, people behind the counter. But we got to practice with each other. So the community, you can join for free, and you find somebody who's doing what you do for a living, who already understands the skills. So you can practice.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

No matter how good you are. Like, one of my favorite guys. Michael Periente, lawyer here in Vegas, is in twice a week practicing defense attorney now. He's really good as is. He's doing really well. He turned his business around using Black Swan skills. Read the book. Took the masterclass. Like, you want to go to Michael. And then he uses. He gets great deals on his client's behalf because he uses the same skills. He doesn't make arguments. And he's a defense attorney. Prosecutor's always ready for arguments. So Michael catches him completely off guard. Prosecutor's not ready for empathy. They don't know what to do with it.

[Travis]

Yeah, right.

[Chris Voss]

Michael's in there practicing twice a week. He's at the top of his game, and he's in there practicing. He's finding other attorneys, and they're going through stuff because Tiger woods, Michael Jordan, LeBron James. Pick your athlete. They practiced in order to win all the time. And so the Black Swan negotiation community is about practicing the skills.

[Travis]

Where can people go to?

[Chris Voss]

Go to the website blackswanltd.com and you'll find a box to get you to sign up for the community.

[Travis]

Love it.

[Chris Voss]

And if you have any problems with the website, email myteam info info blackswanltd.com say, send me the link for the community. I want to get better.

[Travis]

Blackswanltd.com if you are looking to practice your negotiation skills, after reading this book or what was the other book that you were a team.

[Chris Voss]

Fight less, win more, fight less, win

[Travis]

more, or never split the difference. And you want some practical application of those skills, BlackSwanLtd.com, go join the community over there. I know you will absolutely not regret that.