TMF PREVIEW | Make Friends with Dave Berke and Michelle "Mace" Curran

Summary

Podcast Summary: Travis Makes Money

Episode: TMF PREVIEW | Make Friends with Dave Berke and Michelle "Mace" Curran

Host: Travis Chappell
Guests: Dave Berke & Michelle “Mace” Curran
Release Date: April 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this preview episode, Travis Chappell offers listeners a glimpse into a forthcoming conversation from his show "Travis Makes Friends", focusing on the power and challenges of building relationships—both personally and professionally—after military service. Travis sits down with Dave Berke (Marine Corps veteran, leadership consultant) and Michelle “Mace” Curran (former Thunderbirds pilot, keynote speaker, author) to discuss transitioning from elite military careers to impactful civilian roles, finding new purpose, and the constant work of making and maintaining meaningful friendships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Writing Books After Military Service

• Process & Challenges:
  • Mace describes her three-year book-writing journey, teaming up with a collaborative writer. She compares the process to therapy, providing self-insight she hadn’t realized before.
    • Mace: "I would tell her a story and she'd be like, okay. And then like, what did that teach you? And I'm like, I've never really thought about that." [01:33]
  • Travis highlights the dual skills of having expertise and being able to distill lessons for others.
    • Travis: "It's one thing to be expert at what you do, but also being able to distill truths and lessons and be able to turn around and teach it to somebody in a digestible, simplified way is its own skill set." [02:14]

2. Transitioning to Civilian Life & Finding New Passions

• Impact Through Keynotes & Speaking:

  • Mace explains the tangible and rewarding nature of keynote speaking, especially the personal connection and follow-up stories from audience members.
    • Mace: "After keynotes... the stuff people will come up and tell you... they're just so open... Sometimes months or years later... Because of that, I went and did this with it and this is how it changed my life." [03:37]
  • She notes her introverted nature but shares how she now thrives off audience energy, though she needs time to recharge afterward.

• Teaching Leadership:

  • Dave discusses the value of teaching leadership as a learnable skill and the power in witnessing someone realize their own growth and abilities.
    • Dave: "A lot of people look at leadership like an intangible thing or something that just happens naturally. And like, no, it is literally the same as any other skill that you can learn." [04:54]
  • He doesn’t do many keynotes but focuses on deliberate, curriculum-based training, and finds fulfillment in seeing the real-world impact on clients.

3. Team Culture & Camaraderie Post-Military

• Missing the Elite Team Dynamic:
  • Mace shares how hard it is to replicate the camaraderie and shared humor of military life in the civilian world.
    • Mace: "It just forges these friendships that I think are almost impossible to recreate in the civilian world." [11:53]
  • Dave reflects on building the Echelon Front team from its beginnings, feeling fortunate to retain those connections—“getting the band back together”.

4. Navigating Identity & Inclusion

• Being a Woman in a Male-Dominated Field:
  • Mace acknowledges overthinking her place among the "bros" at the start of her career, but as her skills and confidence grew, fitting in became more natural.
    • Mace: "As I found my confidence in the career field and my skill set got better and I just moved up... then it felt so much easier. But at first it was. It was challenging." [12:25]

5. Friendship & Social Connection After Service

• Intentional Friendship Building:

  • Mace admits to struggling with being proactive about making friends post-military—a stark change from the built-in friendships of her previous work. She jokes about starting a podcast called "Mace Makes Friends".
    • Mace: "I've realized that you have to be so much more intentional and put effort in for sure... me like being the one to reach out to people and make social plans is not something I naturally gravitate towards." [13:22]
  • Travis notes that having a podcast is a great way to meet and spend time with interesting people.

• Friendship in Civilian Life:

  • Dave’s current social life is centered around family and the local community (many with no military background), noting the contrast to military-connected friendships.
    • Dave: "All of our community friends are our kids, friends, parents, and there is like nobody that has any military experience... I have this close enough connection [to military circles]... but you can't replicate a fighter ready room." [15:17-15:34]
  • Both agree that while the unique military bonds are irreplaceable, civilian life brings its own forms of fulfillment.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Mace, on self-discovery through writing:
  "I feel like I learned so much about my career, like, insight, being 2020, just digging into everything and being like, wow, that actually really influenced this later experience that I had." [01:30]

• Dave, on teaching leadership:
  "There’s mechanics of doing it and you got to teach that... There’s a lot of power in that. Know that you’re helping someone make their life better by taking that lesson and they can use it." [05:07]

• Mace, on keynote speaking & impact:
  "There's like nothing I would rather do." [04:01]

• Dave, on post-military friendship:
  "In some sense like kind of got the band back together... things that it's hard to replicate, really hard to appreciate if you didn't do it." [16:12]

• Travis, on using a podcast to connect:
  “It works for some reason when you... decide to have a microphone in front of you, people like you guys spending time with me.” [13:04]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:26] – Book writing as therapy and self-insight (Mace)
• [02:14] – Distilling expertise into teachable lessons (Travis)
• [03:36] – Rewards and power of keynote speaking (Mace)
• [04:51] – Leadership as a learnable skill (Dave)
• [06:17] – Missing team camaraderie post-military (Mace)
• [10:36] – Building and sustaining Echelon Front’s culture (Dave)
• [11:17] – Do you miss flying? (Travis to Mace)
• [12:24] – Challenges of being a woman in a male environment (Mace)
• [13:02] – Making friends intentionally; podcasting as a strategy (Mace & Travis)
• [14:29] – Work friends vs. civilian friends (Dave)
• [16:12] – The unique bond of military friendship and finding fulfillment post-service (Dave)

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Conclusion

This preview episode is rich with insights on self-growth, intentional leadership, and the ongoing challenge and value of forging meaningful relationships after leaving high-performance careers. Both Mace and Dave offer reflections that will resonate with anyone navigating personal transitions, the search for purpose, or the pursuit of authentic friendships.

For more, check out the full conversation on "Travis Makes Friends."

Transcript

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[Travis]

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[Travis]

What's up, moneymakers? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast. Today I'm giving you a sneak peek of this week's episode of my main show, Travis Makes Friends, a podcast all about the most valuable asset that we

[Podcast Host]

have in our lives, our relationships.

[Travis]

So whether we're talking about your network,

[Podcast Host]

your marriage, your friendships, or even your

[Travis]

relationship with yourself, these conversations are designed to help you grow, connect, and level up in all areas. I've sat down in person with everyone from world class athletes and entertainers to bestselling authors, entrepreneurs, and even former presidents. And you're going to love the snippet from this week's episode.

[Podcast Host]

So take a listen and if you're

[Travis]

feeling it, go check out the full conversation over on Travis Makes Friends. Let's get into it now. Post military career, you guys now are both sort of in leadership training and doing keynotes, writing books that you were just, you were just talking about earlier. I asked Dave about his book writing experience. He said it was very arduous, very difficult, several years. Was it a similar process for you?

[Mace]

Yeah, three years. And I did work with a, like a collaborative writer on it because I was like, that's not my specialty. I want this to be good. As good as it possibly can be. So it wasn't just me sitting down with a blank page being like, what do I want to talk about? It was talking with her and her asking me questions. It's almost like therapy sessions. Yeah. Because she would be like, I would tell her a story and she'd be like, okay. And then like, what did that teach you? And I'm like, I've never really thought about that. I feel like I learned so much about my career, like, insight, being 2020, just digging into everything and being like, wow, that actually really influenced this later experience that I had. And I didn't really tie the two together in real time.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Mace]

But it is a long process. Three years.

[Travis]

It's a couple different skill sets that are happening there. You know, like, it's one thing to

[Dave]

be

[Travis]

expert at what you do, but also being able to distill truths and lessons and be able to turn around and teach it to somebody in a digestible, simplified way is its own skill set, you know what I'm saying? So there's not a lot of people that can do both of them very well. Which is why I think both of you have seen so much success, you know, post military career, is that you actively engaged in developing a new skill set that you did not have prior, when you didn't technically need to develop a new skill set. You know, at that point. What do you, what do you both enjoy the most now about what you get to do on a day to day basis? Start with you, Mace.

[Mace]

I love seeing the impact happen. Like it's so tangible. When you're face to face with someone, you know, flying air shows, you have this massive reach. Millions of people are seeing you and, you know, you're inspiring people to join the military eventually or to go do hard things or whatever it is.

[Travis]

You flew a Super Bowl a couple times now.

[Mace]

One time at the Super Bowl, Daytona 500, like Captain Marvel, Flight, like we had to do the most obscure things. You're just like, am I still in the military right now?

[Travis]

Fun fact, Captain Marvel. There's a, there's a couple scenes filmed in Rosemond, which is by Edwards Air Force Base. And it was like right where I grew up. Yeah, it was like every time that

[Podcast Host]

scene comes on, we're like, hey, home, you know?

[Mace]

Yeah, out there in the desert.

[Travis]

Yep, nothing but desert for miles and miles. That's where I grew up. And then I moved to another desert for some reason. But that's the weather in August.

[Mace]

But being face to face with people, you get to see them experience like the story arc and the emotional journey. And then after keynotes, when I just hang out for a little bit and get to have conversations with people, the stuff people will come up and tell you is they're just so open and I mean, it is so rewarding. And then they'll follow up sometimes months or years later and be like, hey, you probably don't remember me, I saw you two years ago at this thing. Because of that, I went and did this with it and this is how it changed my life. And there's like nothing I would rather do.

[Travis]

So keynotes are like the thing that you really love.

[Mace]

I love it. I'm an introvert by nature and initially terrifying, but now I think I get to steal the audience's energy so I get to feed off of them. And it's very fun. And then afterwards, after a keynote and a meet and greet, Q and A, all that stuff, I have to go, like, stare at a wall for a few hours because I'm just like.

[Travis]

What I, what I used to do is because I'm also very introverted, strangely enough, even though I have a show about making friends, what I used to do at conferences, when I'd get burnt out talking to people and stuff, I would put on headphones and then just not have any music playing. Just like sit there in the middle. Like everybody's walking around, but I just look like I'm doing something just to be like, leave me alone, please, for like a few minutes. I gotta recharge. What about you, Dave?

[Dave]

Yeah, I think the word impact definitely resonates the way she described that. You know, we, we are a leadership consulting company, so we are really teaching the skill of leadership. And I think a lot of people look at leadership like, like an intangible thing or something that just happens naturally. And like, no, it's, it is literally the same as any other skill that you can learn. You want to learn how to ride a bike or play an instrument or play a sport, that's a skill. You can just learn that. There's mechanics of doing it and you got to teach that. And so to be in an organization that teaches the skill of leadership, like she was saying, like, when you make that impact and go, oh, I can, I can learn this, I can get better at this. I can help all aspects of my life, personal, professional, community. Otherwise, that's undeniably the best part. Yeah, I, I probably do, I don't know, maybe five or six keynotes in a year. I just don't do, I don't do a lot of keynotes. So you're doing a lot of just like the deliberate, almost like curriculum based stuff. But the outcome is the same thing she said, though, was like, oh, when someone, when you make impact and that someone can take that lesson or that experience or that thing you worked through for them to understand it and apply it, that's. There's a lot of power in that. Know that you're helping someone make their life better by taking that lesson and they can use it, you know, and it's not much different than when, I'm sure, same thing when you're learning to fly airplanes, when you learn, like, I can do this now, the confidence that comes from that, the growth that comes from that. And then eventually that is a full circle thing where you end up then passing on to someone else. Like there's a lot of that's by far the best part about what we do.

[Mace]

How awesome is it to still be part of like a high performing team that has the same culture and the same jokes and the same sense of humor. That's what I miss most. I'm solo entrepreneur. Yeah, but you guys have built like a whole team of people.

[Dave]

That's got to be it's wild echelon front. You know, when I when Leif and Jocko called in 2016, it was the two of them. So to see what the company is now and to be part of that on a daily basis and to interact with people that, you know, we're not all exactly the same but you have incredible cross section of people and how big we've gotten. But you still just kind of have your friends that are just this episode

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[Dave]

a lot of certainly he you know Leif, Jocko and I from being in Ramadi together. Like you've got those common threads. It's wild. It's you don't. You don't picture that in the, in the, in the military, that, oh, I'm gonna have something like this when you get out of the military. And the fact that Echelon front's been able to do what it has done and, you know, Jocko deserves a credit for that. But to have been a part of that really from very early on, it's a wild experience. It's been a great ride. I mean, it's awesome. So fun.

[Mace]

Well done.

[Travis]

Do you. Do you both or either of you feel like you miss flying? Do you ever. When you watch the super bowl and you see Thunderbirds fly over, do you go like, man, I wish that was me.

[Mace]

That's a bad example. Because in that split second. Yes. Because that's one of the coolest things you get to do. And then you think about the totality of the job, the sacrifices you make, the demands on. Is not for the faint of heart.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Mace]

The ops tempo is insane. And the grind and balancing that with family and stuff, and I was ready to transition from that. And so I don't miss the flying. Honestly, I don't really think about it that often where I'm like, I wish I could be back in the jet. I do miss joking around with my friends who all Camaraderie. Yeah. It was just the dumbest stuff. That is hilarious. And like this language that no one else speaks. And you're in this high pressure environment. You go through really hard things and it just forges these friendships that I think are almost impossible to recreate in the civilian world.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Mace]

And it's been a challenge. I've been out for almost four years. It's been a challenge to find anything remotely close to that.

[Travis]

Did you find it more difficult or less difficult being a woman in that space to like, be a part of, like, the bros kind of a thing? Was that. Was there any sort of layer of complexity there early on?

[Mace]

Yes.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Mace]

Because I just didn't know how to navigate that and I was like, overthinking it. And like everything I said I would be like, is this gonna rock the boat or is going to make me one of the bros? And as I found my confidence in the career field and my skill set got better and I just moved up and got respect naturally from being good at the job then it felt so much easier. But at first it was. It was challenging.

[Travis]

Yeah. I would assume you'd be in your head a little bit about it. 100%. Yeah. Now, with. With you mentioned it's been a little Bit difficult to create friendships and relationships and stuff like that post military. How do you think about doing those things? Are you.

[Mace]

I'm thinking about starting a podcast called Mace Makes Friends.

[Travis]

Oh yeah, I highly recommend, I highly recommend it. It works for some reason when you, when you, when you decide to have a microphone in front of you, people like you guys spending time with me

[Dave]

come on your podcast with some normal dude like me.

[Travis]

I get to, I get to sit down and talk to cool people like you guys just because I have a podcast. So that's been a pretty cool way for me for sure.

[Mace]

But I. In seriousness, I've realized that you have to be so much more intentional and put effort in for sure. Because I am happy to like sit at home and watch Netflix on a Saturday night and go to bed at 9 o' clock and so me like being the one to reach out to people and make social plans is not something I naturally gravitate towards. But then I find this time where maybe I have a couple weeks at home, I'm not traveling for speeches and I'm like, oh, I would love to go hike Mount Charleston with someone or I would love to go grab a glass of wine. And I'm just like, I should probably put some effort into those relationships because they can't just be on call.

[Travis]

Well, soon then my wife and I will do a double date or something because there's a great wine bar at the Uncommons over by Durango Casino. It's called Wino. We're members of their little wine club and stuff and they have some really great wine tastings and stuff like that.

[Mace]

So making friends. You want to come?

[Dave]

I already climbed Mount Charleston when I was here.

[Travis]

Did you?

[Mace]

No, not for that. For the wine.

[Travis]

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, you guys can climb Mount Charleston. I'm there for the wine. Yeah. Now from a your perspective, Dave, working with the team that you get to work with now on a daily basis, do you find that that is the

[Podcast Host]

case for you in terms of making

[Travis]

friends or do you feel like I have my work friends. Do you have friends outside of work?

[Dave]

Yeah, I guess in some sense I don't, I don't think about it, which means it probably is given itself to me like without putting in a lot of effort to it. You know, we see each other, I see Jocko. You know, I'm certainly not going to spend a lot of time outside of my family right now. You know, I got two teenage girls, I got a 12 year old son. You know, life is just kind of happening for in that in that regard. But the people I do spend time with, like socially, I've got a pretty cool thing going. At least in my, in my life is like all of our community friends are our kids, friends, parents, and there is like nobody that has any military experience. So I have this, this ecosystem of people that like I have no connection to in my private life.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Or I meant to say prior, not private. My prior life, which is cool. I'm just like, I just hang out and they're awesome, they're great people and they all have just disparate backgrounds and experiences. And then I have this close enough connection and you can't replicate in meso back mail. You cannot. It's very hard to replicate a fighter ready room.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Dave]

It's a unique space in the world and, and I wouldn't even want to try to replicate it good and bad.

[Travis]

But.

[Dave]

But there's parts of it like I don't miss the military. I don't miss the Marine Corps. I don't miss flying. I was ready to go. Perfect. Loved what I did. I think back on it with good nostalgia and positive memories. But I don't like say, oh, I wish I was doing that anymore. But I do have enough of a connection to like a military circle where the things that are the intangible things about it you really like. I still get a little injection of that in my life and I do appreciate that. And I think that's something that I'd probably be answering different if I was trying to contemplate what that was like without it.

[Mace]

Sure.

[Dave]

And I think I'm thankful, you know, in some sense like kind of got the band back together a little bit with a handful of guys that I've hold in such high regard. Incredibly challenging experiences. Just like she described, things that it's hard to replicate, really hard to appreciate if you didn't do it. Things that are super unique, that not a ton of people have that very specific interaction. And I still get to spend time with those guys and, and, and share that when and the time is right. And so in that sense there's a lot of fulfillment in the ways that you might want it that I maybe take for granted a little bit because I do have that.

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