TMF PREVIEW | Make Friends with Michael Smoak (@higherupwellness)

Summary

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Travis Makes Money — TMF PREVIEW: Make Friends with Michael Smoak (@higherupwellness)

Host: Travis Chappell
Guest: Michael Smoak (@higherupwellness)
Episode Date: July 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively preview of Travis’s broader “Travis Makes Friends” podcast, Travis Chappell sits down with Michael Smoak—a creator known for his insights on fitness, self-development, and authentic personal branding. The conversation centers on the power of nuance, the importance of showing up authentically online, building an audience, overcoming the fear of judgment, and how repackaging universal truths can be both transformative and accessible. The episode is aimed at money-minded listeners, but pivots to broader lessons on connection, influence, and communication in the modern age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Role of Nuance in Intelligence and Online Discourse

• Nuance is intelligence:
  Michael stresses the importance of using nuance as a sign of true intelligence, especially online where people tend to see issues in black and white.

• Cancel culture and pressure to pick sides:
  Michael recounts being pulled into political controversy despite aiming for a morally grounded, apolitical stance.

• Internet’s lack of gray area:
  “The more you try to establish your stance in a gray area, the more people will try to force you to a side of the fence.” — Michael Smoak [02:36]

• Correlation vs. causation:
  Michael points out that general trends (like college grads earning more) are often met with resistance because individuals confuse personal exceptions with universal facts.

• Quote:
  “What is true for you does not mean it is objectively true across the board. And so the ability for people to understand nuance is, I think, indicative of their intelligence.” — Michael Smoak [03:31]

2. Rejecting the Demand for Universal Opinions

• Resisting forced commentary:
  Travis and Michael agree that not everyone should be expected to opine on every social or political issue, especially if it’s outside their expertise or interests.
• Authenticity over appeasement:
  “You’re just doing it to appease what you think a certain segment of your audience may or may not want to hear from you. Which is like the definition of inauthenticity.” — Travis [08:57]
• Adam Grant example:
  Travis references Adam Grant being criticized for not posting about certain causes, illustrating the internet’s demand for constant engagement on trending tragedies.

3. Authenticity, Self-Expression, and Audience Trust

• Pandering breaks trust:
  Michael explains that pretending to care or to know about everything just to please followers undermines lasting trust and ultimately backfires.

• Quote:
  “If getting to the top of the game means that I have to pander and say things I don’t mean and speak on every topic, then I don’t want to be at the top of the game. It’s that simple.” — Michael Smoak [09:00]

• Long-form content reveals the real you:
  Creating long-form content eventually exposes the creator’s authentic self, meaning any inauthentic persona is doomed to be discovered.

• No prize for faking it:
  “There’s no prize at the end, except for more anxiety.” — Travis [13:09]

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4. The "Gold Rush" of Content and Personal Branding

• Social credibility and opportunity:
  Building even a modest following assigns credibility—often unfairly or arbitrarily—but undeniably creates opportunities.

• “Instagram is the new LinkedIn”:
  Michael discusses how, in his world, a social media presence can have as much impact as a solid LinkedIn resume in the professional world.

• Personal story opens doors:
  “Most people, if they just put their head down, they have a skill to offer, a knowledge, an experience, a story. They could probably get to 10,000 followers on social media. And just that 10k tied to your name will get you indoors, in conversations, in rooms that you may have never otherwise have been in.” — Michael Smoak [14:56]

• Brand as modern networking:
  Travis frames content as a new way of networking: attracting rather than chasing. “Networking is always more powerful when you can attract rather than going out and chasing.” — Travis [15:59]

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5. Overcoming Fear: Self-Expression Online

• Fear of perception > fear of failure:
  Michael argues that the number one fear isn’t public speaking or failure, but how others will perceive us. This, more than death or embarrassment, holds people back from sharing online.
• Belonging and the “tribe”:
  “If I show up exactly as I am, are you going to accept me? Am I going to be welcomed into the tribe because we’re tribal creatures? That’s the fear.” — Michael Smoak [18:08]

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6. The Higher Up Speaking Challenge Phenomenon

• What it is:
  The Higher Up Speaking Challenge encourages people to practice communication skills by recording themselves speaking for a minute daily. The movement started when other creators were inspired by Michael’s advice.
• Impact:
  Over 100,000 people have participated, with some, like Jet Franzen, gaining massive followings and careers from it.
• “Obligation, not option”:
  “If you have a message that can make somebody move in a positive direction, that is an obligation that you have to uphold. I don’t think it’s an option.” — Michael Smoak [19:36]
• Everyone has a story:
  Michael recalls people protesting that they have “nothing unique” to share, but in reality, everyone’s lived experience can inspire or help someone.

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7. The Myth of Saturation and the Value of “Repackaging”

• No such thing as “too saturated”:
  Both hosts reject the idea that the content or advice space is “full.” Every messenger can reach someone, in some way, that no one else can.

• Quote:
  “Saturation is bullshit. It’s a story we tell ourselves to prevent us from having to step out and take a risk and be seen.” — Michael Smoak [26:11]

• Repackaging ancient wisdom:
  Travis and Michael discuss how most “new” self-help ideas are ancient wisdom repackaged for a new generation, and that executing and presenting the ideas matters more than inventing something brand new.

• Steal Like an Artist & Mel Robbins’ “Let Them Theory”:
  Referencing Austin Kleon’s book and the controversy over Mel Robbins’ work, Travis shows that even the most successful modern creators are iterating on old concepts.

  “Any ancient literature from any sort of philosophical or religious institution thousands of years ago is basically everything that Jim Rohn or Tony Robbins is saying.” — Travis [28:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You want me to be on a side because then you can decide if I’m your enemy or not.” — Michael Smoak [04:05]
• “Most things in life have inherent nuance and are not simple.” — Michael Smoak [04:32]
• “You only have so much mental energy to expend in a single day and you’re using a large portion of yours to think about stuff that you don’t know anything about… Maybe focus on that [pointing to personal problems], you know what I mean?” — Travis [05:06]
• “You may not like me, but you’re going to know where I stand.” — Michael Smoak [09:00]
• “A little bit of effort… just that 10k tied to your name will get you indoors, in conversations, in rooms you never would have been in otherwise.” — Michael Smoak [14:45]
• “If I show up exactly as I am, are you going to accept me?” — Michael Smoak [18:10]
• “If you have a message that can make somebody move in a positive direction, that is an obligation that you have to uphold.” — Michael Smoak [19:36]
• “Saturation is bullshit. It’s a story we tell ourselves to prevent us from having to step out and take a risk and be seen.” — Michael Smoak [26:09]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:36 — Nuance and intelligence online
• 04:05 — Cancel culture and being forced into sides
• 05:06 — Travis on personal priorities vs. world events
• 08:57 — Inauthenticity and lip service online
• 09:00 — Pandering and audience trust
• 13:19 — Content “gold rush” and social credibility
• 15:59 — Content as modern networking
• 18:08 — Fear of perception and tribal acceptance
• 18:21 — The Higher Up Speaking Challenge phenomenon
• 19:36 — The obligation to share your story
• 24:38 — Messaging, saturation, and unique resonance
• 26:11 — Myth of saturation; repackaging truths
• 28:11 — Ancient wisdom in modern “new” advice

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, energetic, and loaded with practical encouragement. Both Travis and Michael speak with a direct, sometimes humorous tone, unafraid to challenge popular narratives around success, content creation, and authenticity. There’s a focus on empowerment, realism, and humility—with actionable insights for anyone considering building a brand or sharing their story online.

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Summary Takeaways

• Nuance is a sign of intelligence in a world that demands black-and-white stances.
• You are not obligated to have an opinion on everything; authenticity creates real connection and trust.
• Building a personal brand—even a small one—can unlock opportunities and credibility previously unavailable.
• The greatest barriers to self-expression are fear of perception and tribal exclusion—not ability or originality.
• There’s no such thing as total saturation in the content world; every messenger can connect with a unique audience.
• Don’t worry about being “original”—share what’s changed your life. Execution, not invention, is the real differentiator.

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For the full, in-depth conversation, check out the main episode of “Travis Makes Friends” featuring Michael Smoak.

Transcript

[Host 1]

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[Travis]

What's up, moneymakers? Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money podcast. Today I'm giving you a sneak peek of this week's episode of my main show, Travis Makes Friends, a podcast all about the most valuable asset that we have in our lives, our relationships. So whether we're talking about your network, your marriage, your friendships, or even your relationship with yourself, these conversations are designed to help you grow, connect and level up in all areas. I've sat down in person with everyone from world class athletes and entertainers to bestselling authors, entrepreneurs, and even former presidents. And you're going to love the snippet from this week's episode. So take a listen and if you're feeling it, go check out the full conversation over on Travis Makes Friends. Let's get into it. Well, listen, dude, I want to talk to you a little bit about Some of the things that I've heard you say recently, it's so funny because sometimes I watch, I watch a lot of your videos that pop up. And then sometimes I'm like, this is, this is, this is smoke on a, on a good day. And sometimes I'm like, this is smoke on a bad day. He just woke up and chose violence today. But I want to, I want to talk about a couple of these things. I think they're important. Recently you said, if you want to test someone's intelligence, use nuance. Where did that come from?

[Guest]

The Internet. The Internet, it's, it's amazing. There's no room for gray area on the Internet. And the more you try to establish your stance in a gray area, the more people will try to force you to a side of the fence. And I made a video about how on average people with college degrees typically earn more and do better. The consensus is the odds of you living a fruitful life financially are correlative. Not causative, of course, but highly correlated with you earning a college degree. They typically have better track records, they retire with more money, they don't work as long, they tend to have higher levels of fulfillment, self reported fulfillment in psychological surveys. And people were like, but I didn't do that, therefore that must not be true. Well, that's, I didn't run a four day split. I ran a three day split in the gym and I got jacked. Therefore the four day split must suck.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Guest]

No, you just stuck with the three day split. So that's true for you. What is true for you does not mean it is objectively true across the board. And so the ability for people to understand nuance is, I think, indicative of their intelligence. And I talked with Chris on this, on Modern Wisdom back in February. I got canceled.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And I've been in heat on the Internet before for some comments I made about pcos being insensitive. But this is the first time people tried to pull me into politics.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And literally, literally, like tried to grab me and pull me to a side. And I, I said that I'm not on a side. And you want me to be on a side because then you can decide if I'm your enemy or not. But I really, my stance is I don't condone violence, I don't condone murder. It's against what God calls us to do. It's not a political issue, it's a human morals issue. And the truth is I am not politically tapped in. I don't subscribe to a political Party and I'm not that interested.

[Travis]

I'm not correct.

[Guest]

I would rap. Most people aren't. The average person isn't big on identity politics and people couldn't wrap their head around that. But that brings me back to the nuance position, is that most people are in the middle, but then the people who aren't will tell you you're a fence sitter and that's unjust. But that's not how it works because most, most things in life have inherent nuance and are not simple. There is not a lot of black and white in human morality, sure. But in most topics in the world that require complex conversation and intelligent people to discuss those concepts, there's nuance, which is very important.

[Travis]

Intelligent people. And not just intelligent in general, but intelligent about that thing. That's what drives me crazy about it is like people want me to talk about this thing or that thing and it's like, I don't know anything about that. And frankly, I don't care to sit down and do the volume of research that I would personally require in order to feel comfortable even talking about that thing. I don't care. I do not care enough about that thing to spend 90 days of deep dive research so that I can come up with some sort of an intelligent take on this thing. And there's too many things, like I, I literally don't have the capacity to be an expert in all these different areas. Why are you, you know, yelling at me that I have to have an opinion on this thing when it's not something that I care to have an opinion about. And frankly, something that I don't think you should have an opinion about, random viewer, because it doesn't affect your life at all either. And like you are 28, 000 in credit card debt. Maybe focus on that, you know what I mean? Like, instead of like war in Iran or whatever, it's like I, you, you, you, you only have so much mental energy to expend in a single day and you're using a large portion of yours to think about stuff that you don't know anything about, first of all. And then second of all, you have no control over even if you did know about it. So stop trying to make everybody have an opinion. And like, I think you said this on Chris's show too. It's also, it's also not that they want to hear your opinion, it's that they want to hear their opinion coming out of your mouth.

[Guest]

That's correct. And I simply put, most people followed me because I can teach them how to get in better shape and take ownership of their life. Not because I'm well versed on the political climate of the world, because I'm not. There are political creators that you can go follow and get opinions who have influence over those topics. I'm not one of them. And there's this weird thing that happens in social media where when you get to a certain size on the Internet, people start demanding you speak on everything and become some sort of mouthpiece for social justice. But I'm not that and I never have been that. And so if you want to hear about fitness and self development and grief and overcoming grief and faith and purpose, that's the things. Those are the things that I'm qualified to speak on, I think, and why you listen to me. Anything I'll say in any other realm, I'm probably going to sound like an idiot. And so I'm going to refrain from doing that.

[Travis]

Exactly. Or at least throw a caveat in that's like, I don't know anything about this. You know what I mean? So take this opinion with a large grain of salt.

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm not married happily with three kids for 20 years, so I'm probably not going to be the best marriage and relationship coach. So I don't speak on it.

[Travis]

Yeah, probably not going to talk about parenting that much. Yeah, exactly. Adam Grant posted something about this recently. He's one of my favorite authors and he got lit up in his comments about it. But he sort of wrote like this, a satirical poem about like, no, I will not post about your cause. And like I said, got lit up by people in the comment section, which always blows my mind, especially in the context of somebody like an Adam Grant who's literally a social psychologist, you know what I mean? Like, he's literally, his job is just to present data and information and then people can decide what they want to do with that data and information. And all the people that follow him know that that's what he posts about. And even somebody like him can't get away with saying something like, no, I will not post about your cause. But his point was largely due to what sort of we're talking about is. It's like if you've engage in that, that will be the only thing that you post because there's no shortage of shitty things happening to people all over the world every day.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yes.

[Travis]

So you can't, you, you just can't know about all of them and you can't give some sort of an educated opinion on them for sure. You're just doing it to for ear service or lip service, depending on your platform of choice. You're. You're just doing it to appease what you think a certain segment of your audience may or may not want to hear from you.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Which is like the definition of inauthenticity.

[Guest]

Exactly. And if you say one thing, you're going to piss one group of people off and inspire another group. You're going to make people mad no matter what you do. So I believe we should at least make people mad being our full, authentic, unapologetic selves. And if getting to the top of the game means that I have to pander and say things I don't mean and speak on every topic, then I don't want to be at the top of the game. It's that simple. It's not a trade that I'm willing to make. And when you do that, you get into pandering and you lose the trust of your audiences. You may not like me, but you're going to know where I stand.

[Travis]

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[Host 1]

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[Travis]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Host 1]

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[Guest]

than what I believe.

[Travis]

Yeah, well, and you end up building an audience of a bunch of people who don't actually know you.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So like any, you know, if you're strictly creating like short form only, you might be able to get away with that for like some period of time. But if you do a long form stuff like you do frequent podcast conversations like I know you do, you you can't help but have your true self come out at some point, in which case your audience is just going to immediately jump on that and start canceling you because you were somebody that they didn't think that you were. And to be fair to them, you were just telling them what they wanted to hear. So it wasn't actually who you are. And so when that version of yourself comes out, there goes everything that you built anyway. So it's just not even, it's just, it's not a game worth playing, you know what I mean? It's not just. It's just not. There's. There's no prize at the end, except for more anxiety.

[Guest]

That's it.

[Travis]

That you're going to say something wrong and then your entire livelihood is out the window the next day.

[Guest]

That's it.

[Travis]

Your life will get better if you gain a following. Tell me about that.

[Guest]

Yeah. I think that we're in the gold rush of content right now. I think that this is the modern day gold rush. And Instagram is the new LinkedIn in my world. It's a lot like having a strong LinkedIn presence. If you're in the corporate world, there are things there are, unfortunately or fortunately, I don't make the rules. But a fact of the matter is that doors have opened for me. Credibility has been assigned to me, deservedly or not, because of the number tied to my name. Is that silly? Yes. Does that say anything about the quality of human or character you possess if you have a following? No. Is it fair also? No. But it doesn't make it less true.

[Travis]

Doesn't change reality.

[Guest]

Sort of like Hormozi says is you got to learn how to play the game. And you can either sit on the sidelines and bitch about how the rules of the game are unfair, or you can get in there, learn the rules so you can bend them to your will. And I know people whose lives have literally transformed, some of them close friends of mine, simply from attaching a desire or a mission to grow their brand online. It will establish trust. I mean, if we just meet and someone looks me up on Instagram, they go, who are you? That happened to me this morning at a coffee shop. Me and my friend were talking to some people we met at the coffee shop. They're like, yeah, let's swap contacts. Swap. One of them said, do you have LinkedIn? And I went, more of Instagram. And she was like, okay. And then she looked it up. Cause we were talking about sales. So she went LinkedIn. And I was like, I'm in sales for myself. And then she. She said, who the hell are you? And I went. And then it sparked the whole conversation. And maybe now she'll watch a video and gain something from it. Maybe she'll send my stuff to a friend who maybe needs to hear what I have to say.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

The point is that there is a curiosity and a credibility assigned to you if you can put in a little bit of effort. And the fact of the matter is, most people, if they just put their head down, they have a skill to offer. They have a knowledge an experience, a story. They started to share it. They could probably get to 10,000 followers on social media. And just that 10k tied to your name will get you indoors, in conversations, in rooms that you may have never otherwise have been in. I'm living proof. I've gotten to sit down with people that I once idolized and looked up to and had conversations with them as peers. And they view me as a peer and therefore the knowledge that I gained from them because we're now on this level level playing field of mutually reciprocated value is even better for me because they view me as someone who can make their life better and not just someone who's trying to take from them, which people at the top are very protective of their energy because people are always trying to take it. Let me gain all this insight from you, gain all this knowledge, ask you all this questions and then disappear and probably do nothing with it.

[Travis]

Exactly.

[Guest]

So that's the sad. That sets up.

[Travis]

We'll probably do nothing with it.

[Guest]

That's the key.

[Travis]

That's the key. Yeah. And also I still, I've had this conversation a lot recently just because we talk about relationships. The show used to be build your network back in the day. I also view it as sort of like the new way of networking content in general, you know, because networking is always more powerful when you can attract rather than going out and chasing. Yeah. And you should be doing both, of course. But when you build some sort of a credible brand online again, what's the follower count? I don't know. You know, I don't have a million followers, so I don't know what it's like to have a million followers. But you know, I'm sitting pretty at 60k or whatever and it's like that has done a lot for me and the volume of doors that it has opened for me to walk through, the volume of people who I never thought would give me a second of their time that I can grab for 90 minutes just because I have. That is, to your point, a little ridiculous, but also the way that it works. So pick, you know, choose to be upset about the rules or play the game, you know.

[Guest]

Yeah. There are people that didn't go sifting for gold in the creeks and they didn't get rich and then they wish they did.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

And I think now it is going to become more saturated. More people are getting out of their own ways and posting and some of them are blowing up from the higher up challenge or just because someone inspired them to overcome the fear of embarrassment. And I. My theory is that deep down, everybody would love to build a brand expressing themselves online, that it is cool. It is cool to be able to do that. It is cool that people come up to me and say, thank you for what you said. That's an incredible experience. It's one of the greatest blessings ever. And I think everybody does want that. They would love to be able to express themselves and be loved for it, but the fear of perception holds them back. I think that's everyone's number one fear. I don't think it's death. I don't think it's public speaking, like a lot of surveys say. It's what's beyond that, which is, how are you going to perceive me if I say something you potentially don't like? And will that align with the narrative that I want to uphold about myself in the world? That's the fear, is if I show up exactly as I am, are you going to accept me? Am I going to be welcomed into the tribe because we're tribal creatures? That's the fear. But in reality, it's not nearly as scary once you step into it.

[Travis]

You've. Do you know how many people now have done this Higher Up Speaking Challenge

[Guest]

ballpark since it started a couple of years ago. And I did not start it. I take no credit. A couple of creators, Brandon and Reagan, saw my video about communication skills changing your life and how if you want to improve them, simply pick up the camera and speak into it for a minute. Try not to use too many filler words. Pick any topic and just speak your mind. They did it and they blew up like that. And now somewhere in the neighborhood. I know if you search it, hashtag Higher Up Bonus challenge on Instagram, it's close to 60,000 posts. But across TikTok and Instagram, it's gotta be well over a hundred thousand people. Wow. And some of them have blown up.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Guest]

Think of one guy, Jet Franzen.

[Travis]

He.

[Guest]

He started posting day one of the Higher Up Wellness Challenge. Did 90 days, and now he's got 700,000 TikTok followers and 600,000 Instagram followers, and he's doing it full time.

[Travis]

Wow. What does he talk about?

[Guest]

A lot of philosophy. He'll take philosophical principles and just say what they mean to him, break them down. He's good at it. Young guy. I think he's only 20.

[Travis]

Wow.

[Guest]

But you could tell he's a thinker and it's transformed his life. And then him sharing those thoughts empowers other people, whether it's personally or they start posting, he'll share a thought and make someone go, huh. That's what I think we're all here to do is serve others. But if you have a message that can make somebody move in a positive direction, that is an obligation that you have to uphold. I don't think it's an option. I think it's an obligation.

[Travis]

What if somebody is listening and they go, well, I don't have a message.

[Guest]

That's my favorite excuse. I just don't know what I would talk about. Someone said once, I don't have anything unique that has ever happened to me. And they started sharing their story to me about coming from a broken family and being estranged from their brother and then reconnecting with their brother and building this incredible life with him, in this relationship with him. And then now he has a beautiful family and he's healed all of his family trauma and wounds. I'm like, dude, that's your story? Yeah, there's thousands, hundreds of thousands of people out there who are in that situation who would love to hear about someone who came out the other side and made something.

[Travis]

They're in the thick of it right now.

[Guest]

Yes, you're not special and that makes you incredibly special because it means you can connect with someone else going through something similar. It's like in Ecclesiastes. I believe the book of Ecclesiastes says there is nothing new under the sun. Everybody is dealing with the same shit, grief, trauma, pain. And they're looking for someone to show them that there is in fact a way out. And when people say I have nothing unique to share, I promise you have a knowledge, a skill set or a life experience that feels, it feels boring or basic to you because you scaling

[Host 1]

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[Guest]

Yeah, this is the first thing I thought. I remember eight years ago, I lost 60 pounds, kept it off, built a physique. And I don't think anything of it now, but there was a time where that felt impossible for me. I was fat my whole life and then I did it basically on autopilot and still went out. I still traveled, I still drank with my friends, but I stayed in great shape. That felt easy to me, but that is a concept that feels impossible to many. So I want to encourage people because it feels simple or easy to you. It could be totally novel and complex to somebody else and you may have the information, the missing link to make it easy to them and change their life.

[Travis]

Yeah. And. Or even just say it a way that resonates more with that particular person.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I even did this when I first started my podcast. The reason I started a networking podcast is because I felt like it was the only blue ocean that wasn't tapped yet. At that time, this was like 2017, coming up on 2000 episodes now of all the podcasts that I've been.

[Guest]

That's incredible, dude.

[Travis]

Yeah, it's crazy to me to think about. So it's been, you know, nine years or so. But at the time I remember thinking, because I came from door to door sales, I did door to door for like five years before that. And so I was like, what do I know about what I started podcast about? You know, it's like I could do sales and I went to itunes and I searched sales and I was like, oh, there's like 40 of them. You know what I mean? I know like the top sales trainers or even, you know, Zig Ziglar's archive of sales trainings. And then, you know, Cardone was really big at that time, teaching sales and there's a few other people. And I was just like, oh, that's saturated. Since that time, there have been like a hundred new sales influencers that are massive, that have built, you know what I'm saying? Like, at the time, I still told myself like, oh, this too. This is too crowded. You know, why would Somebody listen to a 24 year old door to door sales guy when they could go tune into whoever, Grant Cardone, whatever. And it's like, well, seemed to work out okay for like Shelby Sapp, you

[Guest]

know, I mean that's who came to mind for me too.

[Travis]

Yeah. Seemed same to work out okay for Cole Gordon, few of my other like a few other friends who've been doing this, you know, hey, let you want to make extra money. Like don't open a Shopify store, don't do Amazon, fba, become a remote closer or whatever. Like people have built $50 million companies off of the back of that. Four years after I decided to not go into sales because it was too saturated. You know what I mean? Like just sometimes the same exact message said the same exact way just from a different person, who that individual feels more connected to, just resonates more with that person.

[Guest]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And so they're going to do something with it.

[Guest]

There's also the concept of our ability to connect with people based on the point they're at in their life. So for example, I quote, Alex Hormozy's confidence is evidence based quote all the time. You don't become confident by shouting affirmations in the mirror, but by having a stack of undeniable proof that you are who you say you are. Outwork your self doubt. I got that from Alex Hormozi. I don't know who he got that from or if he made it up, but I will credit him. I will say the quote and then someone will tell me your quote from Hormozi about evidence based confidence changed my life. So they may not have Hormozy in their algorithm. They had to hear it from me. And I'm at maybe level 10 and Hormozi is at level 100, but someone at level one can't connect with someone at level 100. You're so far ahead of me that I can't relate to you. So maybe you have the message at level five, level three, level two, that someone at level one needs to hear because you were able to digest it from someone at level 50 or 100. And therefore it is again our responsibility then to pass the message down to your point. I know who Zig Ziglar is. I love Zig Ziglar. The program that I graduated from in college, the sales program, was based a lot around his teachings because my professor was a Zigler mentee.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Guest]

And his quote, you can have everything you want out of life if you help enough people get what they Want is actually on the. The wall in the sales center at my college.

[Travis]

Oh, really?

[Guest]

And that quote transformed my life. And now I tell people that, and they're like, light bulb.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

But they don't know who Zig Ziglar is.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

So saturation is bullshit. It's a story we tell ourselves to prevent our. To prevent us from having to step out and take a risk and be seen.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

It's too saturated. It's bullshit.

[Travis]

Yeah. There's a great book blank on the author, Austin Kleon, I believe is his name. It's called Steal like an Artist. But it's essentially this topic. And it. So, like, I. I recommend it to people who are struggling with the concept of, like. Well, I'm just, like, regurgitating information that I've heard over the years. And it's like, yeah, you and literally everybody else. You know what I mean? Like. Like, it blows my mind. Like, this book, the. The Let Them Theory, Mel Robbins book. The Let Them Theory. I guess there's some sort of. I'm saying, squabbles. Yeah. About the ip underlying ip, or some other girl came up with it and she piggybacked on it, wrote a book, made a bunch of money. But it's literally like a tenet of stoic philosophy. Like, Epictetus wrote that, like, thousands of years ago. You know what I mean? Like, she just repackaged it, called it something different, and then sold a book, like 3 million, however many copies. You know what I mean? But people credit Mel. Like, have you heard the Mel Robbins Let Them Theory? I'm like, yeah, you mean the thing that, like, Marcus Aurelius wrote about, like, ad nauseam in while he was the Roman emperor? Like, what are you talking about? This is this. None of this is brand new. It's just repackaged for a different group of people from somebody else's perspective and a unique personality. And that combination, that alchemy of random stuff gets packaged in a different way and somebody can resonate with that thing. It's not. You don't have to be this, you know, Aristotle, like, genius philosopher to. To say something that's going to be

[Guest]

helpful and the initiative to take the information and do something with it.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Guest]

People about Mel Robbins book not being original ip, I don't know the story.

[Travis]

Yeah, I don't either.

[Guest]

But at the end of the day, she took the initiative to market it, brand it, build a brand, and then sell it.

[Travis]

Right.

[Guest]

Did you? No. So how angry can you be? Because she did do something original to her which was run with it. Yeah, it's an unpopular opinion, but it's true.

[Travis]

And again if, if it was your original concept, it might feel a little bit more, you know, thievy. Yeah, but like again this is something that's been written about for millennia. Like it, you know you probably pretty much find all personal development self help books. You could probably find the source code of all of that from like Marx, Aurelius, Meditations, the teachings of Socrates and Aristotle, the Bible, like any ancient literature from any sort of philosophical or religious instit thousands of years ago is basically everything that Jim Rohn or Tony Robbins is saying. You know what I mean? They're not inventing new, you know what I'm saying? Like it just you, you gotta just get over that at some point and just share stuff that's been helpful for you.