Host (3:37)

Well, thankfully those, that investigation has now been stopped. In fact, as a result of that, as a result of this incident, the police have said they're no longer going to investigate non crime hate incidents.

Graham Linehan (3:52)

Yes. Whether that's good or not, I don't know. Because investigating them isn't really the problem. I don't think they ever investigated. They just sat on your record. You know, the problem is the recording of them. So you may have one, both of you may have one. You may not know until you, you know, the podcasting doesn't work out and you're trying to get a job somewhere. Yeah. You know, these are, these are hidden deep in your records. It's probably the reason that when I, when I was invited to a fringe meeting at the Conservative Party conference, the police refused me accreditation, you know, so we had to get the Conservatives to overrule them. You know, it's, it's, it's impossible to know what is and isn't on your record, you know, so come back to.

Host (4:41)

The incident with me because it made international headlines, rightly so, in my opinion, because you were arrested by five officers at Heathrow Airport.

Graham Linehan (4:50)

Yeah.

Host (4:50)

What was that like?

Graham Linehan (4:52)

Well, it was, I, they, I didn't get angry until they escorted, until they actually told me I was under arrest. That's when I got really angry because it was just like the first time the police bothered me was on, on the orders of, of a guy who's a convicted sex offender and serial fraudster. And they, they called about eight years ago when I was still married and I still had something of a career. And they terrified this, terrified. My wife got reported in the Guardian in a gleeful way that I've been harassing trans people. This bloke is built like a brick shithouse as well. And then it just continued, you know, I got, I got visited by the police on, on the orders of a disgraced doctor who's now doing gender surgeries in Canada. An actor Called the police and got them to come to my door. And this was terrifying to my wife, you know, because, like, the person who lived at our house before us was a. Was. Was. Was a little bit of a wrong. And the police were often coming to the door looking for him. So that used to scare my wife. And then the next thing, they're coming to the door and they actually are looking for me. So it was, you know, it's a decade of harassment, really, at the. At the hands of not just the cops, but these trans activists who are pulling their strings. And, yeah, we're suing them now. And I'm hoping that we. We can take into account the previous harassment, not just this most recent example. But, you know, yeah, it wasn't pleasant. I was, I was. It was funny, though, you know, Britain, the UK has such a bad reputation now for freedom of speech. The first thing that all these Arizona, all these Arizonians saw when they landed in London was a comedian being arrested, you know, or a comedy writer being arrested. So, sorry, people keep calling me a comedian and it's sticking even in your head. Yeah, it was, you know, surreal. And also, you know, the nature of it was very clear. I think that the entire thing was to get me into a cell for 10 hours to make me think about what a bad boy I've been. I think that's what the aim of it was. You know, we always say that in this, that the punishment is the process. And, yeah, they just wanted to put me in sort of like a version of detention for adults, you know, so I could sit there and stew and not have my phone. And, you know, it's clever, clever method, you know, because you do start getting a little bit itchy without. Without anything to distract yourself. There's a little library of books they've left behind in the cell. You can choose one of them. But I was too angry to read or do anything else. I was just wandering around my cell trying to memorize everything so I could write about it, you know. So, yeah, it was. And, you know, I was very, very angry. But if I'd known what a story it would become, oh, my God, I would have bought them all a drink, you know, because, like, I've been as, you know, for years I've been trying to break out of the little. Whatever bubble I was in. That meant I just could not. People could insult me on TV shows. They're still doing this. Question Time did it wrong recently. The Today program did it recently. They never speak to me, you know, they never actually Address what, what problem they have with my stance. They just assume it's, it's terrible and, and, and keep insulting me. So finally I've been able to break out of that bubble and, and appear on things like Rogan and your, your own interview was, was very, was very good for me. And it just means that. Yeah. What's so strange about this debate is that the terms that trans activists use to fight it or to fight it, all those terms are shared by all the media. They're never contradicted. The things that women are arguing for are very, very simple and no one could argue against them. So they have to be sort of reframed. So, for instance, you know, it's not men, it's not trans women in women's toilets that women are worried about. It's men in women's toilets and trans women. Mud is the issue, the word, because people don't really understand what it means. A lot of people think that trans women means trans identified women. A lot of people think that trans man means trans identified males. I say, no, no, it's the opposite. Which is another reason that people are frightened to address this issue. Because the language is kept so muddy and obscure and kind of obscurantism is a, is a, is a device they use that people aren't steady on their feet when they're talking about it. But all you can do is just keep making the arguments and hope that people, I've noticed online there's a lot more support, people are much more confident, people know what's happening now. It was confusing at the start because you would see a woman with beard and you go, oh, I guess there must be such a thing as trans people who are in the wrong body. And that briefly crosses your mind, but then you look into it and you go, no, hang on a sec. This is just a bearded lady at the fair, at fairgrounds. It's just the effect of testosterone is changing their, the way their body works, you know, their endocrine system. So, like all this stuff that seemed magical and probably does still seem magical to a lot of young people who, you know, don't like the kind of cards they've been dealt in how they look or whatever, but it's not magical at all. It's just, it's just the effects of cross sex hormones. You know, the effects that they don't know about, the ones beyond the beard and all that stuff is, you know, things like four times higher heart attack chance for women, higher chance of getting multiple sclerosis if you're A man, you know, which is. Which is far worse on men than it is on women. You know, it's a. It's a terrible disease, but it really. It's harder to deal with if you're male. And no one's told these people, you know, and they're all. They've all just got to find out about it in the future, you know, and it's still shocking to me that's been allowed to go on so long.

Host (11:23)

Well, you've been making these arguments for a long time, and I just want to come back to you being arrested because I think it's hard to imagine for most people being arrested for something you tweeted or for something you said online and you said you got angry, which I totally understand. Were you also worried? Did you think I'm gonna get done here, I'm gonna go to prison?

Graham Linehan (11:43)

Not for a second, no. It was so immediately obvious that this was like one of the tweets said, I hate them. Misogynists and homophobes, right? So I'm making it clear that I don't like them because they are misogynists and they are anti gay, you know, so how is that a crime on any level, you know, being against misogyny and homophobia? So it was just absurd. And then when they tried to impose the bail conditions that I wasn't allowed to contact the victim when there was no victim, the whole thing from the start was just comical. The only thing that it kind of was, was frustrating about it. And even this, they probably helped me in the end was. Was getting the blood pressure noted as 200, because that is apparently crazy high. I had no idea. And I think the reason that when they did release me, it was quite quickly. I. I was brought to the hospital, and I got all my devices a few minutes, you know, about an hour after that, and I. I realized, oh, they're scared I'm going to die in custody, which would be a brilliant deadline, you know, so they let me go. And, yeah, apart from the inconvenience, it was actually, all told, a good experience because, you know, I got to see what the arrest procedure is like firsthand. I got to get a kind of journalistic view of everything, how it all works out. It was added to that was this kind of surreality of the policeman kind of trying to suppress smiles because they were delighted that, you know, Father Ted Rider was there. You know, so it was.

Host (13:28)

Well, I was going to ask you about that because one of the. I don't know. I don't know, but I do not imagine that the ordinary bobby on the beat in Britain, or in your case, a police officer assigned to an airport, which means they're armed, so there's a higher level of responsibility. I don't imagine you sign up for the arms response team or an airport armed team in order to arrest comedy writers for jokes. Right. Did you get the sense that the people who arrested you were enthusiastic about it? Were they reluctant to do it? You know, what was the.

Graham Linehan (14:04)

They were cheerful. They were oddly cheerful. I think that the whole kind of, the whole kind of mood seemed to be, well, here we all are, let's just go through it, you know, we have to, so let's do it.

Host (14:16)

You know, Were they apologetic about doing it?

Graham Linehan (14:20)

Somewhat in their, in their attitude, in, in, you know, like I, but it was just, it was, I quickly realized that me being angry with them or even saying, you know, I, I, whatever arguments I have to defend myself is meaningless because they're just, they're just doing their job. You know, they've been told that I'm this or that and they have to, they have to respond to it. But yeah, I didn't think they were enthusiastic about it. I'd say all of those guys I met would rather be on the street, you know, jumping over car bonnet hoods and nabbing bad guys, you know, but I don't think any of them signed up to arrest the father. Writer, Father Ted.

Host (14:59)

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Graham Linehan (16:17)

We believe if you run, you're a.

Host (16:19)

Runner.

Graham Linehan (16:23)

However you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way.

Host (16:33)

You'Re free to discover your way.

Graham Linehan (16:36)

And that's what running is all about.

Host (16:39)

Run your way@newbalance.com Running.

Co-host (16:44)

And Graham, what do you think that arrest says about the state of the UK and free speech in particular?

Graham Linehan (16:51)

Well, I really worry that the police in the UK and Ireland are moving from a certain role they have in society to a new role. And the new role is basically keeping the lid on a boiling pot, you know, as politicians just keep turning heat up and up and up and up. I just feel that police are entering into, possibly entering into a stage where they're going to be used to control the people who are noticing what politicians don't want them to notice.

Co-host (17:26)

Because it's fascinating you say that because, look, we have the conversation all the time about two tier policing and you know, essentially two tier policing means police treat one group very differently to the way that they treat another group, even though the crimes they commit may be the same. But you look at the way you're treated and then you look at, for instance, Zara Sultana saying to people, we gotta fight the fascists in the streets, which to me is an incitement to violence, or Ricky Jones making a throat slitting gesture. You know, when, you know, you go, these things are not the same. You make three jokes and you get met by police in Heathrow Airport and put in, put in a police cell, you go, this is the way that we're dealing with, this is completely biased. I mean, we have to be honest.

Graham Linehan (18:12)

Sure, absolutely. I mean, you know, it is the what, what you might call the dinner party ethics, you know, of the left, you know, everything that, that the dinner parties involving, I don't know, TV executives and theater producers and so on. You know, there's been a sort of agreement not to talk about certain things. And there's been, and there's a kind of widely held agreement amongst all these people that they have the correct opinions, that their opinions are the right opinions. So that when Zara Sultana comes out and says something like that or, or, or says something like from the river to the Sea, which is a genocidal statement, nothing happens. You know, but that's because you know, they're on the correct side of things. The correct side of things.

Co-host (19:02)

And why is it that, you know, you've become this figure? Because people go to me, oh, Graham Lenhan's super controversial and like, I know you, and I mean you could do the odd edgy tweet, but nothing compared to some people.

Graham Linehan (19:17)

Yeah.

Co-host (19:18)

And you, and you're in this position. It's, it's, it's weird, isn't it?

Graham Linehan (19:23)

I think one thing that's happened is, and that happens is that we are somehow blamed for the, the, the things our opponents do. So when our opponents, you know, are smashing in windows of the Philia Conference or abusing women going into it, we're somehow seen as being part of that.

Host (19:48)

Even though, look what you made them.

Graham Linehan (19:50)

Do, maybe something along those lines or just, or just the fact that it's their inattention means they don't really, they don't look at it directly. They don't really know what's happening. And so I remember once a friend of mine would just refuse to talk to me about it and they said something like, oh, that, that, that bloke who's asking women to wax his balls. Remember this?

Co-host (20:14)

Yeah. Jessica Yanif.

Graham Linehan (20:15)

Jessica Yanif.

Co-host (20:15)

Beautiful. La.

Graham Linehan (20:18)

And yeah, I mean, for people who don't know, Yaniv was a trans identified bloke who went up to a bunch of different beauticians wherever. I can't remember where he lives.

Host (20:29)

Canada, wasn't it?

Graham Linehan (20:29)

Yeah, Canada. Yeah. And asked them all to wax his testicles. And then when they refused because they only did women, he sued them and he took a lot of these women's businesses away. You know, even though a lot of the, the cases didn't work, it didn't matter, he still had, had that effect. But I remember this, this friend of mine who was a woman going, I like that about it. And I wanted to say, I'm not asking people to wax my ball, you know, I'm trying to stop these people from doing that, you know, But I don't think those, I think it's just even addressing it is, is for a lot of people, middle class people, it's like touching a third rail. And they know that if they do touch that third rail, they won't just lose opportunities, they'll lose entire social networks. And this is more, I think, punishing to women than it is to men.

Host (21:26)

But see, this is what I find very odd about the fact that you did end up being arrested in this way because I think the horse is bolted. Yeah, I think the horse bolted when the cash report came out, when Wes Streeting in Britain said we're not doing puberty blockers on NHS when President Trump was elected in this country, in America, where we sit today, you kind of go, you lost.

Graham Linehan (21:53)

Yeah, right, sure.

Host (21:54)

So the argument on that issue you're making, the arguments that you've been making for many years, and I'm sort of, no offense to you personally, a little bit bored. Cuz I'm like, sure, we know. Like everybody knows now.

Graham Linehan (22:06)

It was always so obvious, you know, you were just, you know, telling people, of course, sport won't be fair if men can play it.

Host (22:15)

And then we had a boxer fight women and he'd just go, look at the fucking picture. Anyway, my point being like, the horse is bolted. So why they would do that once the whole thing is already done? That's what doesn't make any sense.

Graham Linehan (22:30)

Well, the thing is, I would actually. I'm a little bit more pessimistic about it because, like, if you look at the cast report, they're still trying to. To do experimental. They're trying to experiment with puberty blockers on kids for a period of time. And I think Cass, I'm not sure Cass is as against that as she should be. You know, the boxer who was at the Olympics, not Iman caliph, but the other one, he's just recently knocked out a woman in the ring. So these things are still going on and they still need to be fought. A Brazilian woman who was, you know, I think she had to seek asylum for. Because she misgendered someone. She's just been, you know, found out that that's not gonna happen. And now another case has been open.

Host (23:14)

Graham, I'm not dismissing any of that. I'm not saying the entire battle, every single element of every single issue of this battle has been won. What I'm saying is saying that trans people saying that male people should not be in female bathrooms, I don't think is any longer a controversial statement. No, it was at one point and it now no longer is. And yet that is exactly what you were arrested for. So what was that about?

Graham Linehan (23:41)

As I say, I just think that it's. It's not quite as dead as you think it is. It's not quite as you think.

Host (23:46)

They're still trying to keep the lid on it.

Graham Linehan (23:47)

Yeah, yeah, I think that. I think. I mean, one of the things I've discovered from fighting these, fighting trans activists is that they are. They are endlessly vindictive. And because a lot of them are narcissists they, they simply won't stop until they feel they've destroyed you adequately. You know, it's like a constant, constant war of attrition. So whenever you hurt them, they have to hurt you a million times harder back and, you know, they won't stop. In fact, in some ways we're at the most dangerous period. You know, I think Charlie Kirk getting shot is an example of this. You know, they are losing. I agree. A lot of things that they made unsayable, people are realizing, oh, hang on a sec, they're not unsayable at all. These are just common sense and they don't like it, you know, but there are things, there's good things that are changing. I see that Morgan Ogre, or whatever his name is, who's another Canadian trans identified man, is debating Mia Hughes, who wrote the WPATH files. So that would have been unimaginable a few years ago. He's still, he's still sending her abuse online before the interview and calling her a bigot and so on. But at least it's happening. So I don't know, I think, I think this is like a, a very strong weed that's been strangling institutions and, and, you know, industries across the UK for a decade. I don't think it's going to be, I don't think we're going to be able to get rid of it quite as easily. You know, it's, it's just little things. People don't even realize they're doing them. When the policeman interviewed me at my, at my, when I was arrested at Heathrow, I had that great pleasure of, he would say to me, you know, so he'd asked me a question about trans people and I'd say, what is a trans person? And he, he said, it's someone who's, who's gender. And I said, sorry, what is gender? You know, and he was in knots immediately. And he actually said gender assigned at birth, which is pure activist language, you know, and I'm sure that a lot of people say that without even realizing they're saying it, you know, so it's not been just an attack on the institutions, it's been an attack on our ability to see a glass of water and say, this is a glass of water. You know, it's like been an attack on our ability to recognize reality itself. And that was another reason why I was so, you know, why I felt so strongly about it, because as a writer I need things to be stable so I can write about them, especially comedy, you Know, because you need the stability so you can upset it and create instability. But if you start off with an instable world, then how do you make fun of that? I often say that you could not do a comedy about this, because.

Co-host (26:59)

You.

Graham Linehan (27:00)

Could possibly do a comedy about this if you only used true stories and you assured people that these are actually true stories. Because the things we've been fighting, the things we've seen are so, you know, completely absurd. That if I, if I just was genuinely trying to record it in a fictional story, no one would buy it. No one would buy it.

Co-host (27:29)

And it's had a very real world impact on your life. Like, for instance, I love the theater, I love the arts. The arts has been completely corrupted by this. I was talking to an actress the other day and she said that if she misgenders someone three times in the rehearsal period or when she's in the play, and it could be an accidental thing, simply getting someone's pronouns wrong, you're automatically fired and reported to your agent. What?

Graham Linehan (27:55)

That's insane.

Co-host (27:56)

And this is in the West End, in London. This is in, literally the place, the best place in the world for theater. And then it makes me think about the fact that you created Father Ted the musical.

Graham Linehan (28:08)

Yeah.

Co-host (28:08)

Which is, to be honest with you, is a license to print money for everyone involved. It's got a huge fan base. I wanted to go and see it.

Graham Linehan (28:16)

Yeah.

Co-host (28:16)

And then it's, it's. Will it ever see the light of day?

Graham Linehan (28:20)

I don't know. I mean, you know, they've, they've, by treating me the way they did, they've kind of burnt a lot of bridges with me. So that's part of the problem, by.

Co-host (28:32)

You said, treating you the way they did. Let's deal in specific SC so people can understand.

Graham Linehan (28:37)

Well, you know, I, I, I, I basically brought the musical to them. I developed this, wrote it with Arthur and Neil Hannon and, and, you know, put three years of work into it, thought about it very carefully, tried to make it, wrote it in such a way that it gave a, A sort of ending to Ted's story that I felt was worthy of Dermot and was like a little salute to Dermot and a thank you to Dermot, but still creating a new kind of story that amateur groups could perform, that was one of my main things I wanted amateur. I wanted to create a new Ted and Dougal so that amateur theater groups could look at it and go, oh, yeah. So it doesn't have to be an impression. It can be just. You're trying to sum up, the figure of a. A guy who doesn't. He's not as bright as he thinks he is, and a guy who's incredibly, incredibly dull, you know? And I don't know, we just. We just. It was ready. It was. It was. The songs were written. It was ready. It was on its feet. They tried to. I should have known something was up when they tried to make, like, you know, the character in the show who goes, I hear you're a racist now, Fox. Yeah, well, in the. In the last dry run we had, a black guy said that. And I remember thinking, oh, shit. Are they gonna try and make. Are they gonna try and make this a multiracial cast on Craggy Island? Which wouldn't have made sense. Like, there's a whole episode about how the Chinatown on Craggy island is a ridiculous concept, you know, so it wouldn't have made any sense. And God love him, the actor was just as embarrassed as we were, you know, But I could sense that they were already beginning to think, how can we make this a multiracial cast? They did it to Tom Stoppard as well. And Sonja actually said to me at one point, he doesn't think there should be black cast in the ghetto. You know, this is like the Warsaw ghetto. I think his last one was made up. And she said. And she said, but he's having them, You know, and it's like, well.

Host (30:53)

This is ridiculous.

Graham Linehan (30:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is the world they live in. It is entirely about virtue signaling. It's no longer about the art or the.

Host (31:02)

Or the truth or the truth or.

Graham Linehan (31:04)

The audience, you know, it's definitely not about the audience. And as a result, the theater is dying in London, you know, and the Father Ted musical would have given it a huge shot in the arm, but unfortunately, we're now taking orders from the ice cream sellers and the. And the staff who all think they're non binary, you know, and that's what did for it in the end, you.

Co-host (31:27)

Know, so when you say what did for it, what actually happened? So from what I can hear, the run through was great. The songs were written, the play was ready to go, everything was there. You were in final rehearsals. You had your black actor, so you had your diversity on your rural Irish island. Everything, every box was ticked.

Graham Linehan (31:45)

Yeah.

Co-host (31:46)

What happened?

Graham Linehan (31:47)

Me. They just didn't want. They. They wanted me gone. I. I got a. I. I got a meeting. I wrote a letter to them.

Host (31:53)

Oh, they offered you to buy you out, didn't they?

Graham Linehan (31:56)

Yes, yes, they offered me 200 grand to walk away. And, and I, I was considering it at first and even started writing letters or an explanation as to why I was backing away and so on, you know, but it was all con. Jimmy was just trying to calm them, you know, by, because I would have still received royalties and you know, he was just trying to trick everybody really. But I said, okay, well, you know, I just want to come along to the occasional rehearsal to just see that it's going the right way, that it's, that it's, it's not taking on any jokes that don't work or too cheap or something like this. And they said, no, we want a clean break, you know. And this was after I'd almost single handedly done this thing, you know. So, you know, I just, I think that that was the final straw because I, I don't want to be arrogant but like, but I do know that if I hadn't been there then, you know, it wouldn't be as good. You know, I've always, I've always been like a micromanager on, on details, especially when it comes to jokes. You know what jokes are like, they have to be a certain way, certain if you've been doing stand up, you know that you have to say the words in this order because if you get the order even slightly wrong, you screw it up. So I didn't trust anyone there to, to know this, you know, because I've seen the rest of hat tricks, programming. So, you know, I, I, I just didn't want to go, I didn't want to, I, I knew that if I didn't have anything to do with it, then it wouldn't be as good and I wouldn't be proud of it. And I, I, one of the things I'm dead certain of is that if I'm involved in something, it's going to.

Host (33:43)

Be good, you know, well, your track record better sound. This is the other thing. Like, you know, you're not going to say this yourself because you're a modest guy, but you are a generational talent. In, in I, I, I always have to find a weird way of saying it because you're Irish, I always say, you know, British Irish. You know what I mean?

Graham Linehan (34:00)

Yeah.

Host (34:00)

But you know, the things you've created are things that have entertained literally millions and millions of people and you've had your opinions, you probably had them earlier than other people and therefore took more of the arrows and more of the brunt. But it's just a travesty. It's an absolute travesty At a moment when so much feels uncertain and confused, it's worth remembering that the first Americans were searching for the same things. Truth, clarity and purpose. Hillsdale College's new free documentary series, Colonial From Wilderness to Civilization tells that story. Access the whole course at Healesdale. Edu Trigger. You'll learn why liberty, especially the freedom to live by your own conscience, inspired people to cross an ocean. You'll learn how they built self governing communities from nothing and how their belief in hard work and virtue laid the foundations for peace and prosperity. We proudly promote Hillsdale's courses time and again and for good reason. They're thoughtful, beautifully made, and provide a world class education completely free. So if you want to understand how American freedom began and why those lessons still matter today, this is the series to watch. Go to Hillsdale Edu Trigger to enroll for free. That's Hillsdale Edu Trigger and learn how America's story really began. This episode is brought to you by White Claw Search. Great podcast pick, friend. No surprises there. After all, you're all about finding the tastiest flavors out there, just like White Claw Surge. And with big, bold flavors to enjoy like blood orange, BlackBerry, cranberry and more, it's time to go all in on taste. Unleash the flavor. Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors, 8% alcohol by volume. White cloth surface seltzer works Chicago, Illinois.

Graham Linehan (35:51)

Well, you know, as I say, I mean, it, it was a roundabout way, but it, but it got me here eventually and, and it's been nice being here knowing that I won't get arrested any second has meant that I can really relax and start thinking about writing again because like, I'm always learning. I'm always learning on the job. And you know, Rob just gave me the opportunity to write this film idea, which I really like.

Host (36:18)

Rob Schneider ROB Schneider FORMER GUEST OF.

Graham Linehan (36:20)

US yes and you know, I just rattled it out and writing it kind of taught me how to do it, if that makes sense. I'm not saying, you know, it's brilliant or that I immediately know how to do it, but it was just a nice thing at this stage of my life to be able to sit down and write something in a different format that I'm not used to and come away thinking that wasn't bad, you know, we kind of might be able to do this, you know, so, so, and also, and you know, I don't, I've, I've often said this and it sounds like I'm just Trying to have commiseration, reward, what's that word? Condole, Condolences, something like that. Anyway. But like, like I, I've, I've experienced so much more of life now. Like, I used to be very, very siloed in the comedy world, you know, I used to, I, I used to imagine if you looked over, over where I hung out in Soho and drew a map of where I went, it would just be like a big black line after a while at the same places. I was very much on a kind of on rails. And then this happened, completely derailed me and just kind of threw me into so many different situations that I wouldn't have otherwise been in. Met so many interesting people and also just had the kind of mist fall from my eyes about the way the media has been lying for the last 10 years and what the media has been doing and finally beginning to realize that, oh, this is just, we're just being manipulated to keep us, to keep us under control and to keep us docile. But unfortunately, they did that with the wrong thing because you can't tell fathers that their daughters won't have fair sports. You can't tell women that they can no longer be safe in rape crisis centers and so on. It's not going to happen. You know, that is the immovable object that proved that the trans movement wasn't an unstoppable force, you know, and it's.

Co-host (38:24)

Really interesting because we touched on this before the interview. I've always thought, cards on the table, huge fan, always have been since the days of Father Ted. Loved your comedy, your writing, all of that. But one thing I've been really disappointed by is the cowardice of the people in your profession and our profession who have not wanted to go near this topic, even though privately they go, oh, I secretly agree with what you're doing, number one. Or number two, the people who would just come out in full force and.

Graham Linehan (38:56)

Support this nonsense, Robin Ince and people.

Co-host (38:59)

Like that, you know, David Tennant and all of these people, you go, what's going on here?

Graham Linehan (39:04)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think often with those people there's some sort of personal connection. Their cousin or, you know, nephew or whatever it happens to be is calling himself non binary. And everyone's going along with it for an easy life, you know, and they get suckered into it that way. The people I don't understand, and the phenomenon I don't understand is the first part of what you said. The people being scared. It's like, wow, is it that easy to keep people Scared to get them. So scared they won't even approach a topic. And this happened without us realizing that we were now in a world. The way I often put it is that with social networks, and I'm a great example of this because for the first while I was building up a social media presence, not that that's what I aimed to do, I was just telling jokes on the Internet. But as I was building that up, I was creating around myself a structure by which I could be harassed. And we all do that. We all have it, you know, to later, greater or lesser extent, the people who have no Internet footprint at all, they are very hard to harass. You know, it's extremely difficult to get to them. But if you have any kind of an online life, they got you. You know, like, I like one of. Can't talk about this because my current trial. But. But I know they do things like you could take a picture in your house, right, and you can see the world outside the window behind you. Well, they'll look at that world. They'll try and figure out where you live from it. So any information you have online, they will grab. And because I was the writer of Father Ted and I never thought anyone would come after me, our business address was actually our home address and it was on company's house. And of course, one of the first things that this, this guy did to me was, was publish my home. Publish our home address. You know, which kind of scared my wife even more so. But. But what I do find, I just find it disturbing that everyone just kind of did the same thing. They all just bowed their heads and waited for the mob to pass by. No one said, hang on, there's a mob and we should be looking out for each other. Everyone just bowed their heads and waited. And that's what I find extraordinary. In fact, I don't even know if they even knew they were doing it. I would ask people, and they talk about it as if it was just an annoyance. You know, this, you know, I don't anything to do with that. You know, it's like, well, fair enough. But, you know, some people don't have the choice. You know, the Darlington nurses, for instance, you know, they don't have the choice. They're being. Their lives have been changed by this stuff and they didn't ask for it. So can't you stand up for them? Nope.

Host (41:54)

Well, Graham, you talked about.

Graham Linehan (41:56)

None of them did.

Host (41:57)

If you were to draw a pic, track your movements within a small part of London while you were still in the creative world. And I think that's probably telling of the way that other people in that world also operate. It's very insulated. Everyone thinks that they're on the right side of history, as, you know, you hinted before we started, like you've changed your mind on a lot of things and there was a point at which you saw a lot of people as evil and immoral, etc. You've kind of grown through that, haven't you, as a result of the experiences you've had?

Graham Linehan (42:33)

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I, I think another thing to possibly. Well, here's the thing. I don't know whether the left has changed. I think they have. No, it's fair. The left have definitely changed. But I don't know if there was an aspect of them that was always like this. And it makes me look back, it makes me think of certain Stalinesque aspects that this current movement has, like disappearing people and reputation ruining and all that sort of thing. And it makes me wonder if that was always a feature of socialism and left wing and liberalism and not a bug, you know. Is Stalinism actually the thing that people like about communism? Not the everybody gets to eat or everybody gets to own land? No, it's you get to destroy your enemies. And I think that the left over the last few years have been very clear that that's what they want to do. They want to destroy and kill their enemies. The reason they killed Charlie Kirk was because he had the effrontery to debate them about their, about their beliefs. And then one thing that he kept revealing is that their beliefs were built on nothing. Their beliefs were built on a sort of very, very delicate network of their friends and what the media is saying. But there's nothing beneath it, nothing powering it, no real, no facts, no no, no, no philosophy. Just a kind of a overriding urge to see the bad guy punished, you know. And yeah, now I look at things like the way it's so interesting when you see people going up to these booties, weird kind of protests by boomers. You know, boomers seem to have gone completely mad. But like going up to them and putting a microphone in their face and saying, what specifically do you not like about X or. Yeah, and they never know. They can never say, you know. And so I worry a little bit that the left has become this engine that just wants to, that realizes it can't win arguments based on just the kind of gut feeling that they all have. And as a result, they're just going to take the opposition out by other Means whether it's by cancellation or by shooting them in the neck, you know.

Co-host (44:57)

Yeah. It's really worrying how the language that is used online, particularly by the left, I mean, it's starting on the right. We're seeing it on the right as well, which is also worrying. But particularly on the left, you know, calling people fascists, Nazis, and just thinking that these words have no impact at all. It's so reckless.

Graham Linehan (45:17)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's also. I don't know, I think there's been a. I think there's been an influence of the kind of wild west of the Internet. When you think about places like 4chan and Reddit and so on, I think there's trolling is something the left seem to enjoy doing now. And it's never clever. It's just the most horrific. Kind of like that woman doing this to her neck to some Charlie Kirk fans and so on.

Co-host (45:49)

Apparently she was a teacher.

Graham Linehan (45:51)

Yeah, yeah. But as you say, all these people think they're on the side of the angels, so nothing they can do can be bad. That's the way they think about it. But again, it's not based on anything tangible. You know, it's like, well, do you. You know, if Kamala. Kamala Harris let loads of undocumented people in and he's stopping that, what is your problem exactly? What. You know, what is. What is your problem with all this? So. Oh, he's.

Co-host (46:20)

He's.

Graham Linehan (46:20)

He's grabbing people off the street, you know, and then you find. You do a little bit of research, you find out they're. They're cartel members or something, you know, and it's like, what are you complaining about? What is the actual substantive reason to hate Trump so much? Not just hate him, as, you know, we all hate our elected leaders, but to have this kind of, you know, uncontrollable rage about him, you know, I mean. But I have to say, I had it. I had it myself. I suffered from it myself on the. When he first won the election. When was it? 2017?

Host (46:56)

16.

Graham Linehan (46:57)

Yeah, 16. Yeah, I. I would. I think that was the start of when I started going into a depression. You know, I was up all night because I couldn't believe it. I still resent that. I didn't get a good night's sleep that night over nothing. And. And I remember breaking it to my son as if it was the most serious thing in the world. You know, my son actually said, you're joking. Cause I'd filled him with so much nonsense about him. And then, you know, the second term comes along and he's surrounding himself with fairly good people. It seems they're not all perfect, but some of them seem to be interested in making the US A better place. He's changed in that he seems a little bit better behaved. He's still funny, but it doesn't, he doesn't just, it's not just kind of coming out randomly. He, he, you know, he's, he's, he's obviously learned from his previous experience and, and, and understands the mechanics of the presidency now. You know, So I just don't. I think. Do you know what I think it is actually saying it out loud. I now realize what it is. It is his competition. It is his ability to get things done that they hate.

Host (48:11)

Same with Charlie. That was your point. They targeted him because he was effective in what he did. This is the weird thing about the way, the weird thing with President Trump, and there are plenty of things to criticize him for and disagree with him and dislike about him or the MAGA movement or the party, lots of problems, as there are in every person, in every party, whatever, but he is uniquely criticized for doing the things that he was elected to do.

Graham Linehan (48:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Host (48:41)

People voted on immigration in this country to a very, very significant extent. And when he tries to deal with it, that's what it is that he's then criticized for.

Graham Linehan (48:50)

Yeah, yeah.

Host (48:50)

Very weird. But it's interesting. You said you were filled with a kind of tds, Trump Derangement syndrome hatred. You clearly have been cured of all of that. Do you think? Other than being violently. Not violently, other than being viciously harassed and canceled. Is there a cure for this sort of derangement? Not just Trump, but in general, this.

Graham Linehan (49:14)

Like, you know what? I think you might have to be destroyed by the same people who are telling you, who are lying to you about Trump before you realize, oh, hang on a second. You know, I used to believe it about all sorts of people without knowing why. I remember there was a bad smell around Joe Rogan, and I remember thinking, oh, he's right wing. You know, just this vague thought in my head.

Co-host (49:37)

And by the way, there's nothing wrong with being right wing.

Graham Linehan (49:39)

No, I know.

Co-host (49:40)

No, no, I'm not saying you, but, like, because of. We. Because, oh, he's right wing. It's just like white believes in small government.

Graham Linehan (49:46)

That's the other thing I realized, you know, like, I've met so many conservatives recently, and, you know, they're smart people who you can really have a good conversation with. You can't really have the same kinds of conversations with leftists usually. You know, because they're all, they're so much, they're so feelings driven and they're so kind of, I don't know, they're so removed from reality. You know, it's like, it's like this thing that in Ireland again, this, this what I was saying about the bubbling pot, you know, the, this recent, the girl who was killed recently. 10 year old girl. I'm sorry, not killed, raped. 10 year old girl was raped. And the BBC did an extraordinary thing. They reported on the riots but they didn't say why they happened. You know you would think that that would be a part of. But it's just riots in Dublin like it's weather or something. And so you realize that all these people who defame me and called me a bigot and that's what they're in the job of. They're in the job of selectively giving people information that means they will do what they want them to do. And it's why I brought up the werewolf games at the last, last time we spoke. Because you know, unless we, unless we develop some, some tools to combat the misinformation we're being fed from, from the people we trust, then it's going to be a very rocky next few years because you've seen what AI can do. You've seen the. It's now just the other day, the Connolly, Christine Connolly, I can't remember her first name, but the presidential candidate in Ireland announced her resignation. You know, but it wasn't, it was AI. And that's going to happen more and more often. And this unsteadiness on our feet is going to get worse and worse and worse. And the sad thing is we don't have anyone to protect us. We should have, in the uk, we should have had the BBC to protect us from that. The BBC should have been the gold standard. You know that, that if it's, if the BBC says it, then it's probably true. Right? That should be the national broadcaster. It should be like that, that taxpayers pay for. But no, no, They've just spent 10 years lying to people. I think there was an upsurge in kids seeking gender reassignment when I Am Leo, the BBC program came out. They've never apologized for that. They've never apologized for pushing this. And as a result, we're going into an uncertain future where we really can't be sure what we're seeing is real or not. And we don't have anyone on our side except us. Stragglers who. With all our little independent things that are going on. My, my little substack. You know, I know trigonometry is huge, but, but you know what I'm saying? We should be able to look to certain, certain things. It's like, it was like Matt Taibbi's point about Edward Morrow that, you know, that was a time when he, he was, he was hugely respected and if he said something, you could be sure it was pretty well fact checked and, you know, but now you just don't have that certainty anymore.

Co-host (53:02)

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Host (54:41)

Yeah, and look, let's be honest. Trigonometry and your substack and all these other things are great, but they're not the answer because you see it with new media. I mean, actually, unfortunately. Look, we're very happy with where we are. We're doing very well. But if you look at the things that attract the most attention in the new media world. It's crazy, batshit conspiracy crap.

Graham Linehan (55:03)

Yes, yes.

Host (55:04)

That's what's also happening. Because that's, you know, that appeals to people.

Graham Linehan (55:09)

And also, I'm sure you would rather. I mean, I know you've. You've. You've had some great moments as well with the. The Oxford debates and things like that, you know, but there is a part of me that wishes. I still wish I was sitting around a table just talking about different words for farts with. With. With some funny people, you know, that's been kind of taken from us because. Because we've had to step in. It's so ridiculous to even say that, but we have. We've had to step in and do the job that the BBC and other mainstream channels aren't doing. You know, we shouldn't have to do this. We're not. We're not professionals. Do you know what I mean?

Host (55:48)

Right.

Graham Linehan (55:49)

We started off trying to make people laugh, and now we have to do this. Why. Why is that now our job? Why isn't someone, you know, like, why isn't there a David Dimbleby type or where are they all gone? You know, and they're still there, but they're lying and they're misrepresenting. Like Today program is still misrepresenting women. Women's Hour that still doesn't have feminists on it, you know, like. Like Helen Joyce and so on. They just won't do their jobs. So we have to do it. It's a crazy situation.

Host (56:25)

Do you think Britain will recover from this? Do you think there comes a point where all of this is dialed back?

Graham Linehan (56:33)

I think the gender thing is. Yeah, I don't think that that's a problem. I think that the real problem, though, is the immigration thing in terms of how it's been reported and not reported. So I think that the idea that you can keep mollify a nation of people who are worried about what these changing demographics mean to their country, if you. If they can't speak about that and if they're. If, if their speech about that is considered racist, then it's a far greater worry to me that we're seeing some sort of, I don't know, some sort of social breakdown over the next few years. You know, I don't think. I think that that is entirely possible. Ireland just had this rape. Something like that could happen at any moment with. The way. With the way immigration is unchecked at the moment, and it'll just take something like that to make it all go off. Then the police will really enter into the new stage of their existence, which is just pure keeping people from burning stuff up and it's not going to be pretty. And unfortunately, I don't see the media changing. They haven't learned from the trans issue, certainly because they're still doing it. But I don't see them saying, hang on, we have to reflect the world as it is, not as we would wish it to be. Because once you do that, then at least people feel they're being heard. But if you're not even being heard, then that kind of social breakdown is much more, is much more possible, I think.

Co-host (58:17)

I mean, that's the worrying thing because you look at what's happening in Ireland and I mean, I know very little about it, I've got some Irish relatives, but you're looking at it and you talk to a few people, you go, well, this is a powder keg. And yet no one's talking about it.

Graham Linehan (58:32)

Yeah, that's it.

Host (58:33)

What is happening in Ireland?

Graham Linehan (58:35)

I think just that we've had, you know, that weird European project of just flooding the country with immigrants for some reason. I don't know if there's someone somewhere going, oh no, if we do this, Everybody will be 10 quid better off or something, but there's no reason given for it. It's changing the demographic, it's changing the demographics of the country. I believe in Galway, the most popular name is Muhammad. Now, now that might, I'm pretty sure that's not a rumor, but it might not have been Galway. And you know, you have these hostels that are being turned over completely to immigrants again. They're not families, they're military age men. What does anyone hope to gain by all this? What is going on? And what does anyone hope to gain by not letting the Irish speak about it? And RTE is just allergic to allowing anything other than the Dublin 4 kind of media mindset to, to, to, you know, dictate what the, what the discourse is.

Co-host (59:48)

And also Ireland has got a tremendous housing crisis. It's practically unaffordable to buy property in Dublin.

Graham Linehan (59:54)

Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. And you know, you go to Dublin, go to any restaurant, the prices are unbelievable. It's, Dublin is kind of not. It's only possible to live in Dublin if you're, if you're of a certain tax bracket. You know, it's like just, you're either rich or you have nothing, you know, and it's like. And also, you know, even if you're well off, you can't buy anywhere because the house prices are so insane, so every household has three or four cars because the only place that the. They can't move out and it's the only place they can be in private. We've got this massive traffic problem as well, you know, that's slightly better these days, I think, but it's. I don't know. The thing that's taken a real hit for me over the last few years is thinking there's anyone somewhere who knows what they're doing and will sort it out. You know, you used to think, well, they know what they're doing in banks, or they know what they're doing, they know what they're doing in the cockpit, you know, but you don't have that easy confidence in everything now because you realize, oh, they're just people like me and they might be good at their jobs. But when you think about. There was a funny quote that a science fiction writer once said he was asked at this conference, well, isn't 95% of science fiction crap? And he said, 95% of everything is crap. And it's true that in life it seems to be that there's a few people who are truly capable. You know, Charlie Kirk seemed to be one and they've killed them. And everybody else is either just, you know, trying to get by, trying not to let other people know how not in control they are and coast through life never bringing their A game, never bringing any expertise or, or empathy to their jobs. And you realize, well, that's government, that's what we got. And I just don't feel. I often bring up the image of the empty cockpit. You're on a plane and you open the door to the cockpit and there's just no one there. That's how I felt over the last few years. All the things that, that I felt kept life stable and sane and, you know, allowed me to just go on writing comedy and not thinking anything was, you know, being allowed to be in this little playpen where, where my decisions didn't affect anything other than what was going to appear on a half hour of television. That's gone, you know, because you can't be as carefree anymore. You have to check every document from your kids school to make sure they're not being taught some craziness. You have to be on top of everything and that's exhausting. And I can understand why some people don't even want to take the first step into this new world, but unfortunately it's the one we've all taken because, you know, it Turns out to be the world we're in.

Co-host (63:01)

And what you're effectively talking about is the transition from a high trust society to a low trust society, which is devastating.

Graham Linehan (63:08)

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I get less of a feel of it here. America feels kind of high trust. I don't know why, but it just. I don't know, it's just so big, I guess, and the people here are. It's harder to control them.

Co-host (63:24)

Yeah.

Host (63:25)

There's also no such thing as America because you live in Arizona, if you live in New York, you'll experience a very low trust society. You know, it's also a. Where you are.

Graham Linehan (63:36)

Yes. And also possibly whether you're near a city or in a city.

Host (63:40)

That's right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. But, but I'm glad you found a, you know, a great life here, but it is a. It's a massive loss for the fact that. And this is such a weird thing because it applies across the board. You've got the, the co. The guy who created Revolut, the banking.

Graham Linehan (63:56)

Oh, yeah.

Host (63:57)

He's left for Dubai. The reason is, as I understand, the tax policy in Britain.

Graham Linehan (64:03)

Okay.

Host (64:03)

You've got, you know, and that is because government is going crazy on, on, on. On that side of things.

Graham Linehan (64:09)

Yeah.

Host (64:09)

Then you've got people like you, who, who are forced to. Like, if you could have Father Ted the Musical touring around Britain and Ireland and the rest of the world, you'd still be in the UK if you weren't getting arrested every time you land at Heathrow.

Graham Linehan (64:21)

Yeah.

Host (64:22)

And on and on and on. And it's just. It's just a process of a massive brain drain of talented, driven, ambitious, skilled people being driven out by people who are the exact opposite, who are not geniuses, who are not talented, who are not ambitious, who are mediocre. And there's this sort of like mediocre tyrannical layer of people who are in charge and they're driving out the passionate, the creative, the talented, the risk takers, the wealth generators.

Graham Linehan (64:55)

Yeah.

Host (64:56)

And, you know, until. And until that ends, this is what's going to happen. And people like you are going to be sitting here by a beautiful pool in the sun.

Graham Linehan (65:04)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know. Yeah. I mean, that's about the size of it. It's not a happy place, it seems to me when I go back to the uk. No, I worry about it sometimes. You know, my kids are still there, obviously they're in college now, so I'm particularly worried about them. But I don't know I just. I sometimes wonder whether the UK has a future. You know, I've never, I've never felt like that before. But it's, it's, there's so many, there's so many examples of the ruling class or, or what I call the regime of media, politicians and cultural institutions all basically agreeing on the same line. Like, that's just not gonna end up anywhere good. It's all, like, as an example, it's already killed theater in London. You know, I believe theaters are about to shut down, you know, and that's because, unfortunately, the theater world has been taken over by, as you say, mediocrities. You know, and what better way of elevating yourself if you're a mediocrity, than tearing down the person who's doing better than you? You know, you saw it, you certainly see it in children's publishing. The other children's writers who are coming after Rowling are very, you know, you'd never hear of their work otherwise, you know, so, yeah. This last few years has been sort of a decade of mediocrity telling their betters what to do.

Host (66:38)

Graham, always good to have you back, even though it tends to be when terrible things have happened. Thanks for coming on. As you know, before we go to our audience questions for you, we always ask, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be.

Graham Linehan (66:53)

We're actually talking about the one thing that we should be talking about, which is the gender ideology. For years, it has been, you know, just unthinkable to even bring it up in polite company, but now it's unavoidable, and I think that. No, that's not a good answer. Sorry. You want one thing that people aren't thinking about.

Host (67:17)

Yeah. I think it's fair to say that anyone listening to this is fairly familiar with the transition.

Graham Linehan (67:22)

I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Host (67:23)

We can skip the question, or you.

Co-host (67:25)

Can just say about, you know, what you. The work you're doing with Rob and Andrew, if you want.

Graham Linehan (67:31)

Actually, there's a good example, isn't it, Andrew having to leave. Yeah. No, I, I, I think people. I, Maybe I should not tell people what they should talk about for a while. Maybe I should take a holiday.

Host (67:46)

Holidays are great. Yeah. People are not. Look, I, you know, you say that I actually, I've been taking a lot more time off. Yes. As I. Particularly as I get older, because not.

Graham Linehan (67:57)

A kid, you can.

Host (67:58)

Yeah. Not that we have the hardest job in the world, but, like, what we do is intense mentally.

Graham Linehan (68:03)

Yeah.

Host (68:04)

And I was starting to find that if I'm, like, going on and on and on without taking any time off, A, my health suffers.

Graham Linehan (68:11)

Yes.

Host (68:11)

And B, I become a bit of a dick.

Co-host (68:13)

Yes.

Graham Linehan (68:13)

Yes.

Host (68:13)

You know, so actually, you know, taking time off from what you do, especially if you're in a kind of heated environment of the kind that we operate in, I think it's very important, and it's stabilizing and grounding. So it's a very good point. We should all take some time off.

Co-host (68:29)

Yeah.

Graham Linehan (68:30)

Okay.

Host (68:31)

There we go. I told you what. The one thing we're not talking about is head on over to triggerpod.co.uk, where we ask Graham your questions. When a joke offends, who owns the problem nowadays? The comedian? The audience? Or the culture that's lost its sense of proportion?

Graham Linehan (68:53)

Ra.